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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
 Posted - 13 May 2016 : 13:05:34
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I've been replaying a few old games, and it struck me how in the various Elder Scroll games, weapons and armor were crafted according to cultural motifs rather than a standard design. I was thinking about how this could apply to the Realms; how would you apply cultural motifs to the weapons and armor of the nationalities of the Realms? How would a staff of power made in Thay differ in looks and spell allotment from a staff of power made in Halruua? How would a +5 platemail in Waterdeep differ in appearance from a +5 platemail made in Chessenta?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 13:34:48
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| A staff of power in Thay would probably have a flame motif, whereas the one in Halruaa would probably have arcane symbology or symbols of Mystra covering it. Platemail in Waterdeep.... that's a harder call, as they have less of a unified culture.... platemail in Chessenta though, I'm picturing it covered in symbols of men contesting with bulls/lions/dragons, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 16:09:33
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| if you use special abilities of magic items instead of basic stuff like +3 sword you can make it regional easily. Like Haalruan spell storing staff and Calimshan cooling plate armor. |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 18:39:00
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Different cultures also use different weapons, for example in Mulhorand you would probably see the Khopesh used, while in Maztica a Maca or mace studded with obsidian shards would be common.
Speaking of Maztica, cultures may also have different access to materials. Lack of refined metals in Maztica has them using blades of obsidian instead of steel. Likewise Mulhorandi weapons may have materials using copper or bronze rather than steel. Yes Mulhorand would have access to the stronger metals now, but perhaps they use softer metals as a cultural preference, OR the item is old enough to predate the prevalence of Iron and steel.
I'd like to think something like a Staff of Power goes beyond cultural aesthetics and into perhaps personal preference. I don't like to think such items are just mass produced. An item of this power should be a labor of love for the one who crafted it. It's design should reflect his or her race, customs, culture, everything about them.
Take two wizards in Thay. A Staff of Power crafted by an Evoker would be quite different from one created by an Illusionist or Enchanter, even if the two wizards were part of the same culture or even lived next door to one another.
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2016 : 01:33:49
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I've been working on something similar in scope to what you're talking about, but limited to Cormanthyr and the surrounding regions and a specific window of time. Sadly, the limit on RPG products only for the DMG has complicated where I was going with this but I'm happy to share some of what I have. Here is a little of how such motifs come about, are refined, and are applied to designs like swords.
Elves are pretty easy to design for in general. Lots of nature motifs. The Elves of the Realms are much the same as what we're all familiar with, but with an added motifs of sun, moon, stars, and a whole lot of magic, etc. Add in some appropriate mythological and historical imagery to fill in the vague cultural gaps, and you can get some interesting results.
For example, one of the hero weapons in the story I was working on is the Irithyl family blade. Forged long before they acquired the Crownblade around the end of the Crown Wars, it's closer to a proto-moonblade in many regards, so lets start there for our first source of motifs. Namely, that took the form of trying to find a general shape that wasn't quite a pure Longsword, Rapier, or a Shortsword - but something that might pass for a common ancestor. Obviously, the blade needed to be a proto-Crownblade as well so I know I need atleast 1 Selu'kiira in the sword design too that had to be easily visible. The character in particular who wields this weapon draws significantly from Persephone, so I used Demeter's Golden Sword and the themes of the Eleusinian mysteries as a base for the motifs. The changing of the seasons, life-death-rebirth, the duality of new spring and death, harvest and winter, etc. So with all those motifs in mind, I started exploring.
Roughs
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/5774/fLLzXs.jpg
I took the best elements and got a bunch of feedback. Infact, that's not the only sheet of these roughs - but you get the idea. After refining the ideas and motifs down, I narrowed it down to this single design below.
Final
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/6106/tzKaXF.jpg
The best motifs come from what is the story you are trying to tell with the design on the small scale (the character), the large (the family, state, or culture as a whole), and the grand (the overall story it all is apart of). So above we have alot of symbolism wrapped up in a single design, but the most important came about by accident while I was exploring: the symbolism of passing knowledge from the Irithyl dynasty to the Miritar, thus we see the Selu'kirra blooming from the flower (stem/hilt is spring, the vines are summer, guard is autumn, blade is winter) and nearing the part of the blade that is death (a connection made all the better by the fact the Miritar family's sigil are daggers).
In short: it is the story you are trying to tell and allude to, be it on a hero or cultural scale, that is the determining factor for motifs within visual narratives of any sort (comics, films, games, illustrations, etc). |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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Edited by - Adhriva on 14 May 2016 01:57:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2016 : 02:04:46
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| I really like that design, it manages to capture the elegance typical of the elven culture very well. The symbolism is also well thought. Thanks for sharing. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2016 : 03:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I've been replaying a few old games, and it struck me how in the various Elder Scroll games, weapons and armor were crafted according to cultural motifs rather than a standard design. I was thinking about how this could apply to the Realms; how would you apply cultural motifs to the weapons and armor of the nationalities of the Realms? How would a staff of power made in Thay differ in looks and spell allotment from a staff of power made in Halruua? How would a +5 platemail in Waterdeep differ in appearance from a +5 platemail made in Chessenta?
Certainly a good idea to bolster role-playing and immersion. And indeed, in some areas, there are already cultural motifs. A shining example is the "Purple Dragon" motif of the Kingdom of Cormyr. Purple dragon knights. Check. Purple Dragon Throne? Check. Nobles and knights wearing purple cloaks? Check. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2016 : 20:12:52
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Currently dividing general historical wardrobes to specific city-state cultures of the Realms, trying to capture the prevalent mores of the people.
Waterdhavian fashion in my Realms for example is a colorful and diverse version of renaissance clothing (like number 15), with deeply cut shirts and buttoned jackets for noblemen and high waisted form-fitting dresses with open backs for female nobles as current fashion. Amnian (14) and Tethyrian fashion (17) is sometimes more like rococo style, with very elaborate corsets and hairdresses for women and wide, slash-n-puff breeches and lace trimmed frilled jackets for men dominating the streetview. Sembian fashion (13) is often baroque, lots of black lace and subtle display of wealth with gold threaded and embroided pieces, and big purses a current fad for women. Illuskan fashion (a bit like 5 & 6) is very celtic, with expertly woven furs & cloaks prefered for men and veils fastened with expensive tiara's favored for the noble females.
For the mayor historical eras I placed classic greek and roman clothing (like 1 & 2; tunics with togas) in the chessentan bay area, and both Mulan and Chondothan cultures have absorbed some elements of that classical roman look. Chondothan (5) and ancient Jhaamdathan (7) togas are the prefered (if somewhat conservative) look of the people, with colors signifying both station and profession (for example green togas for judges, purple for mayors, red for generals, the more vibrant the color the higher the status). Mulrohandi tunics (somewhat like 12) characteristically have lined sleeves, with three lines signifying a nobleman and single lines slaves.
For arms and armor I generally give the Faerunian continent metallurgy equivalent to the Renaissance era of the earth, with elaborately sculpted baskethilted steelswords, steel-reinforced polearms and gothic gorgetted breast plates and lobstered full plates dominating battlefields. In the picture I imagine the order to be clockwise representative of an amnian, thethyrian, waterdhavian and a sembian suit of plate.
In frontier areas such as the North, Moonsea and Rashemen skullcaps wooden shields and brigandine is mostly seen as defensive wear. 'Frontier' swords are more often of the crusading arming swords or northmen style blades with celtic engraving in pommel, hilt and swordbase, while axeheads and spearheads are usually plain (with exceptions for magic and royal weapons that can display large amounts of jewels and engravings into their designs).
:EDIT Fixed first link
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 29 May 2016 16:38:32 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2016 : 21:51:21
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I am mostly thinking of climate and the activities of the nobility when dividing up the historical clothing styles. I usually include lots of distinctly foreign elements to come up with cool outfits for my npc's. Stealing from historical classics and archetypes is easily described if you don't have a good (re)collection of FR novel covers and art.
I can see High-Netheril fashion to have been alot like the middle aged clothes in example 34, with lots of layers of robes over tunics, with colors and embroidery signifying rank and power in the art. I think they would have similar extravagant clothing as the Red Wizards, with large collars and heavily bejeweled breastlaps and or shoulder pouldrons.
Damaran and Vaasan clothes would resemble example 19 and 27 the most I think (long sleeved, broad belts), and Rashemen wear might have elements of 24, 25 and 26 (color bands and headwear).
EDIT: Added the picture link I refer to with the numbers |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 29 May 2016 16:40:20 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 05:04:52
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I had imagined Damara and Vaasa as frontier regions with a middle ages France or England style (especially for the peasants, lots of flax, lots of brown clothing, and lots of dirt).
Vaasa and Damara are in the cold North. Wouldn't they be more analogous to Denmark, Baltics and Scandinavians custom-wise? Or maybe similar to Kievan Rus. I can see that they would hunt lots of animals for their warm furs. Probably wear fur caps like the Russians do. |
Edited by - moonbeast on 25 May 2016 05:08:58 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 15:20:01
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| If you look at Races of Faerun there is large part focused on human ethnics with images (p.83, 85) of their distinctive looks. There are also informations about their usual equipment and customs. This could be a lot of help for this endeavor. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2016 : 20:20:13
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Since Netherese fashion is probably the basis for Halruaan clothing and decorative styles it pays to reconstruct the clothes worn by the High Netherese. Since the Loross speaking, draconic alphabet using High Netherese amges primarily wore clothes fit for nobility looking at the art for specialty priests of the gods they worshiped gives a nice idea how clothes might have been worn. So Amaunator (Lathander), Jannath (Chauntea), Jergal, Kozah (Talos), Moander, Mystryl (Mystra), Selune, Shar, and Targus (Garagos) could give us hints.
Faith and Avatars (pg 5 til 13) has a very nice series of truly diverse set of clothes and armor, and interestingly the more older gods of the Faerunian pantheon tend to wear more elaborate and extravagant (renaissance and rococo) clothes.
So for Netherese women we see large multi-layered and elegantly slashed dresses with highly decorative collars, expensive jewelry with lots of gems, high headdresses interwoven on long hair and reinforced with gemmed tiara's, and long (half-)gloves and simple shoes. Netherese men tend to wear long robes, again with decorative high collars (reaching over the head), with elaborate headcaps and simple hoods for the head, slash and puffed sleeves and dagging on the breaches with simple leather boots underneath. Combined I think this made a typical streetview of a netherese enclave a fascinating vibrant sight of colors and shadowed visages.
Halruaan (and Nimbralese) clothes probably adapted this archaic netherese style to the wet and hot climate and some wardrobe customs of the Tashalan people, creating a less densly layered and more subdued version. I imagine netherese jewelry would remain fashionable, but more combined with light cloth like silken togas and tubulas (tube dresses held fast above the shoulders with decorative clasps), and simple sandals and leather shoes. Mayhaps the rather striped and linear looking Draconic alphabet perhaps made them retain a love for horizontal and vertical decorative lines on their fashion and art. So perhaps arms and armor has draconic engravings, fine lined embossings and subtle metallic color patterns. Nimbralese glassteel makes for fantastic helm visors, so perhaps some elite guards and shields are imported glassteel armor, gifts from indebted Hidden Lords of Nimbral to nobles in Halruaa. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 15:27:46
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| The 2e sourcebooks Warriors and Priests of the Realms and Wizards and Rogues of the Realms both have nice art which suggests cultural-influenced clothing. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 20:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Since Netherese fashion is probably the basis for Halruaan clothing and decorative styles it pays to reconstruct the clothes worn by the High Netherese. Since the Loross speaking, draconic alphabet using High Netherese amges primarily wore clothes fit for nobility looking at the art for specialty priests of the gods they worshiped gives a nice idea how clothes might have been worn. So Amaunator (Lathander), Jannath (Chauntea), Jergal, Kozah (Talos), Moander, Mystryl (Mystra), Selune, Shar, and Targus (Garagos) could give us hints.
Faith and Avatars (pg 5 til 13) has a very nice series of truly diverse set of clothes and armor, and interestingly the more older gods of the Faerunian pantheon tend to wear more elaborate and extravagant (renaissance and rococo) clothes.
So for Netherese women we see large multi-layered and elegantly slashed dresses with highly decorative collars, expensive jewelry with lots of gems, high headdresses interwoven on long hair and reinforced with gemmed tiara's, and long (half-)gloves and simple shoes. Netherese men tend to wear long robes, again with decorative high collars (reaching over the head), with elaborate headcaps and simple hoods for the head, slash and puffed sleeves and dagging on the breaches with simple leather boots underneath. Combined I think this made a typical streetview of a netherese enclave a fascinating vibrant sight of colors and shadowed visages.
Halruaan (and Nimbralese) clothes probably adapted this archaic netherese style to the wet and hot climate and some wardrobe customs of the Tashalan people, creating a less densly layered and more subdued version. I imagine netherese jewelry would remain fashionable, but more combined with light cloth like silken togas and tubulas (tube dresses held fast above the shoulders with decorative clasps), and simple sandals and leather shoes. Mayhaps the rather striped and linear looking Draconic alphabet perhaps made them retain a love for horizontal and vertical decorative lines on their fashion and art. So perhaps arms and armor has draconic engravings, fine lined embossings and subtle metallic color patterns. Nimbralese glassteel makes for fantastic helm visors, so perhaps some elite guards and shields are imported glassteel armor, gifts from indebted Hidden Lords of Nimbral to nobles in Halruaa.
I like the idea that glassteel peppers Nimbraii culture. That being said, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock on Netherese culture permeating the clothing styles of Nimbral and Halruaa. Their culture has had nearly 2 thousand years to change, and I'd bet there are a lot of other things that heavily influenced their cultures. For instance, in the case of Nimbral, I get the idea that their homeland has a strong fey influence (there's a notedly large number of half-elves). In the case of Halruaa, I'd bet they get a lot of clothing influence from the cultures that they interact with locally. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2016 : 00:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like the idea that glassteel peppers Nimbraii culture. That being said, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock on Netherese culture permeating the clothing styles of Nimbral and Halruaa. Their culture has had nearly 2 thousand years to change, and I'd bet there are a lot of other things that heavily influenced their cultures. For instance, in the case of Nimbral, I get the idea that their homeland has a strong fey influence (there's a notedly large number of half-elves). In the case of Halruaa, I'd bet they get a lot of clothing influence from the cultures that they interact with locally.
Weather too. It's hot and humid in Halruaa.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2016 : 19:46:13
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Aye. I see the transformation and assimilation of clothing styles as very fluid and changeable amongst the nobility of the Realms, especially in larger multi-cosmologic economic powerhouses such as Waterdeep, Athkatla, Zhentil Keep, Selgaunt, Eltabbar and Calimport. The amount of cultural exchange is possibly staggeringly huge, so strange fads in architecture and manufacture are abundant.
Here is an example of a netherese noble woman, and here of another. I think the Halruaan style would have changed it to a more ancient greece like wear for women and persian-like for male nobility. It would combine it with elements of The Tashalan culture. I made these have elements of hindu and arabian fashion, so snakeleather with lots of feather adornments, silk and multiples of jewelry (like bands of necklaces or armlets). I imagine Halruaan style to be pretty subdued and slow to change, because of their isolationist foreign policies.
Similarly, a noble from Nimbral would also have traditionally pointy (elven style) shoes combined with the typical elven formfitted tunic and cloak for men and perhaps floaty, low shouldered dresses and braided hair for women.
EDIT: syntax
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 01 Jun 2016 19:51:42 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2016 : 06:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Nimbralese glassteel makes for fantastic helm visors, so perhaps some elite guards and shields are imported glassteel armor
Glassteel was mentioned mostly in the context of air cavalry.
Which only makes sense for any flying warriors who can afford it.
Then again, once they have all the necessary technologies and production chain to make it, may as well run with this.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like the idea that glassteel peppers Nimbraii culture.
But why would they - other than "we needed some air cavalry and then just didn't stop"?
quote:
That being said, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock on Netherese culture permeating the clothing styles of Nimbral and Halruaa. Their culture has had nearly 2 thousand years to change, and I'd bet there are a lot of other things that heavily influenced their cultures.
And they have a spelljamming port, IIRC. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2016 : 17:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Nimbralese glassteel makes for fantastic helm visors, so perhaps some elite guards and shields are imported glassteel armor
Glassteel was mentioned mostly in the context of air cavalry.
Which only makes sense for any flying warriors who can afford it.
Then again, once they have all the necessary technologies and production chain to make it, may as well run with this.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like the idea that glassteel peppers Nimbraii culture.
But why would they - other than "we needed some air cavalry and then just didn't stop"?
quote:
That being said, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock on Netherese culture permeating the clothing styles of Nimbral and Halruaa. Their culture has had nearly 2 thousand years to change, and I'd bet there are a lot of other things that heavily influenced their cultures.
And they have a spelljamming port, IIRC.
On the glassteel, I'd imagine that there are a LOT of failures with craftsmen learning to make glassteel. That being said, I'd bet that they learn on things that they can still sell even if its not as hard as steel. So, I'd imagine that there's probably a lot of this kind of stuff that permeates hats, bracelets, necklaces, belts, etc.... and as this caught on perhaps they realized that this was even a viable market for cheaper glass products that the upper middle class/nobility may buy. They probably played with making colored glass as well.
It should be noted here also that for most of the realms (at least according to the OGB), making advanced glassworks was still a rare artform. So, whereas someone wearing glass jewelry in our culture would be seen as cheap.... in realmsian cultures, that might be a fad that outsiders are impressed by. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 10:47:50
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I always had the mental image of Thayvian motifs being flamboyant to the point of being dramatic. Long, sweeping, high-collared wizard's robes, ornate armor with motifs carved to suit the enchantments and so on. Also, there's always a splash of red or gold in the finished product.
Netheril takes this up to 11. Robes often look dramatic, woven with sigils of their archmage wearers, with cloaks cunningly stylized to resemble wings. Armor tends to look heavily battlemage-ish, even if the wearer is a regular fighter. The kind of high fantasy armor with ominous pauldrons and decorations, with robe skirts, basically.
I even try to tailor enchantments to their regions; Thayvians prefer conjurations, evocation and necromancy-based special qualities, with Halruaan enchantments tend to be of a divinatory bent. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 11:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the glassteel, I'd imagine that there are a LOT of failures with craftsmen learning to make glassteel. That being said, I'd bet that they learn on things that they can still sell even if its not as hard as steel. So, I'd imagine that there's probably a lot of this kind of stuff that permeates hats, bracelets, necklaces, belts, etc.... and as this caught on perhaps they realized that this was even a viable market for cheaper glass products that the upper middle class/nobility may buy. They probably played with making colored glass as well.
It should be noted here also that for most of the realms (at least according to the OGB), making advanced glassworks was still a rare artform. So, whereas someone wearing glass jewelry in our culture would be seen as cheap.... in realmsian cultures, that might be a fad that outsiders are impressed by.
My point is - if they did drag it with them from Halruaa, this is tied with the Netherese traditions (I asked about this one.), but if not, it hints at even more interesting possibilities.
In that there are at least 3 known mountaintop glass structures - Snow Eagles Aerie, Star Mount ruins and concealed with illusions castle on Highpeak (Moonshaes) - which may be Avariel and/or Aearee ruins of the Dragon Wars era. Nimbral has some mountains...
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 04 Jun 2016 12:09:54 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 13:34:21
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So glassteel production is a Netherese tradition, a secret traded from Avariel (who in turn learned it from Batrachi or Aearee)? Very interesting. I need to somehow incorporate those Aearee glassteel outposts in my home game... Phwiukree's weather towers are the closest to the Sword Coast, aye?
___
The excellent trade routes map in 3.0 FRCS can influence the way the common rural street silhouettes are shaped in how they would look like. Certain details that caught my eye are the fact that Thay exports jewelry, Amn and Sembia trade silks & wines, This could indicate that Thayan commoners could have access to jewelry more readily than peasants elsewhere, and Amnian and Sembian folk dress in silks;
The Moonshea Isles and Cormyr export plate armors so perhaps steel plated armor might be worn by even the town guards in the Moonshaes and Cormyr. It might also mean that Moonshaes and Cormyrian plates are more fashionable or of higher quality. For example Moonshae half-plate might be famously colored to every preference with lots of sea-inspired engravings (that are all the rage around the sea trade nobility), while Cormyrian plate is more fully enclosed (more often full plate then elsewhere) due to more advanced metallurgy of their forges.
The Silver Marches almost solely trade weapons for goods, as do the Vast and Calimshan. Here the skill level of the smiths is probably famed for certain distinctive manufacturing or decorative styles; with famous examples of the work of some local smiths reaching all over Faerun (and probably copied). Dwarven holds are probably the reason in the Silver Marches for their famous quality weapons, while that role is carried in the Vast (for example because of its excellent wood supplies) by polearm makers and in Calimshan for its steel holding excellent edges (ala damascus steel). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Cultural Motifs
