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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2016 : 09:21:07
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So I was reading on the 5e Facebook page about this guy's campaign where the players played all various forms of outcast monstrous humanoids (orcs, minotaurs, goblins, kobolds, etc.) coming together for basic survival and I thought the idea was awesome. So I'm going to pitch the same idea to my players, putting them into the Realms. But I'm not sure where and maybe, what edition to do? Some thoughts:
Locations:
• Western Heartlands
Pros- well known, loads of info, well populated with all kinds of creatures.
Cons- been there, done that.
• Moonsea
Pros- interesting demographics, harsh climate makes for more survivalist feel.
Cons- less info on the area, also conflicts with another on-going campaign in that region.
• The Spine of the World
Pros- climate difficulties, loads of conflict, might even fight with Drizzt!
Cons- might fight against Drizzt
• Cormyr
Pros- fighting against the Purple Dragon Knights in hit-and-run ambusbes, has a sort of cat and mouse feel, loads of info
Cons- heart of human/elf settlers means likely a quick death
Edition:
•3.5e
Pros- Loads of customization, supplements, and options. It's also free to use and easy to get adventures for.
Cons- has lots of balance issues, including rules for monsters as PCs in terms of Hit Die and level adjustments.
•Pathfinder
Pros- a bit better balanced, just as many options
Cons- just had a campaign using it and not everyone is familiar with the subtle rule changes.
•4e
Pros- all monster races are ready to play, no adjustments needed, lots of info and supplements
Cons- combat bogs down and it makes running certain challenges more difficult.
•5e
Pros- new, fun, and quick
Cons- pretty much needs all new rules for playing monsters.
And.......go!
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2016 : 11:10:06
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Here's an idea: put them in a place where gladiatorial combat is common. They could all be members of a single "stable" owned by a particular person. Maybe something happens to him, and they make a bolt for freedom.
This gives the advantage of explaining how a bunch of really different critters are in close proximity and know and trust each other. It also adds potential foes: the master (if he/she is still around), the master's successor, or the master of the arena would all be interested in getting back the fleeing PCs.
Additionally, a future hook could be needing to go back for someone who didn't escape, or who was captured and put into the same situation. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2016 : 11:43:09
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| That's a really awesome idea Wooly, thanks! I'll definitely be pitching that idea to my group |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2016 : 14:07:51
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Happy to oblige. 
Another thought: maybe nothing happened to their owner. Instead, their escape was engineered by a rival of the owner -- mayhaps the owner also had a very powerful critter as a gladiator, and the rival owned a gladiator that was scheduled to compete against this champion. Rather than lose a buttload of money and/or prestige on a losing fight, this rival engineered the escape of the entire stable, just to get the champion out of the picture (embarrassing the PC's owner was simply an added bonus).
Going this angle, the focus of the owner would be on recovering the champion and the more valuable gladiators first, giving the PCs some time to level up in peace before their former owner comes after them. Additionally, the maneuverings between the owner and the rival could create a lot of opportunities for the PCs, as well. The rival could even help them out, with the eventual goal of having them take out the former owner and get him out of the rival's way.
This does not, of course, mean that the rival won't decide to clean up lose ends, afterward.  |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2016 : 15:49:41
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Silver Marches is my go-to region. It has everything other than like jungle dwelling creatures. Just about every monstrous humanoid is there is numbers. There are entire orc kingdoms/cities, as well as large goblin, hobgoblin, and giant enclaves. There are some incredible opportunities to explore other races lore (giants are a great example). They have their own languages, art, culture, etc.
The best part about the whole Silver Marches/Spine area is there are plenty of lawless "empty" areas to explore and possibly set up your own kingdoms/tribes of any race. There is no one around in many of those places to care if you found a "monstrous" community/collective.
Right now for me Pathfinder is the best balance of crunch/realism. The best part about Pathfinder is all the 3 and 3.5 edition stuff can be easily used along side it. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 09 May 2016 15:50:37 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2016 : 21:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Happy to oblige.
Another thought: maybe nothing happened to their owner. Instead, their escape was engineered by a rival of the owner -- mayhaps the owner also had a very powerful critter as a gladiator, and the rival owned a gladiator that was scheduled to compete against this champion. Rather than lose a buttload of money and/or prestige on a losing fight, this rival engineered the escape of the entire stable, just to get the champion out of the picture (embarrassing the PC's owner was simply an added bonus).
Going this angle, the focus of the owner would be on recovering the champion and the more valuable gladiators first, giving the PCs some time to level up in peace before their former owner comes after them. Additionally, the maneuverings between the owner and the rival could create a lot of opportunities for the PCs, as well. The rival could even help them out, with the eventual goal of having them take out the former owner and get him out of the rival's way.
This does not, of course, mean that the rival won't decide to clean up lose ends, afterward.
Those are all some really cool ideas. What I'm thinking is having them escape the gladiator ring due to an accident with magic (not involving the PCs) and they jump at the opportunity. Unbeknownst to them, there is an alter motive to their escape and follows what you've outlined above. Of course the PCs won't know that until later. Further during their escape attempt an NPC is going to be left behind. They flee but vow to return for them. This will eventually lead them to be pursued by their former ally and friend, twisted by torture and magic into thinking they left them behind on purpose. The PCs will have to engage their former friend and decide to fight to the death or try to save them.
Other factors will include the random monsters that normally roam the country side plus ne'er do well Adventurers alike. It's literally the world vs. them. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2016 : 21:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Silver Marches is my go-to region. It has everything other than like jungle dwelling creatures. Just about every monstrous humanoid is there is numbers. There are entire orc kingdoms/cities, as well as large goblin, hobgoblin, and giant enclaves. There are some incredible opportunities to explore other races lore (giants are a great example). They have their own languages, art, culture, etc.
The best part about the whole Silver Marches/Spine area is there are plenty of lawless "empty" areas to explore and possibly set up your own kingdoms/tribes of any race. There is no one around in many of those places to care if you found a "monstrous" community/collective.
The Silver Marches is definitely a great location. Not too far from other civilized areas but with enough "empty" space to really create whatever is needed. I'm pretty sure there's some ruins near there that could serve as a make-shift gladiator-ring, correct?
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Right now for me Pathfinder is the best balance of crunch/realism. The best part about Pathfinder is all the 3 and 3.5 edition stuff can be easily used along side it.
I agree Pathfinder is a better upgrade than 3.5 but I don't know how hard it would be to have a myriad of Monstrous characters at the same level. My friend expressed a desire to play a Minotaur, which has 6 Hit Die starting off. So if I have a Minotaur, Goblin, Drow, and Bugbear in a group it's going to be pretty difficult coming up with encounters and threats that will be challenging to everyone in the party. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 01:02:25
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Rite Publishing has a book called In the Company of Minotaurs; the book is for Pathfinder. It gives options for minotaur NPCs, without that huge hit die bonus. It's a 20-something page book with a lot of PC options, as well as stuff on minotaur lives.
They've actually got a small buttload of those "In the Company of..." books, but that's one of the few I'm familiar. There's another, In the Company of Monsters, that is a compilation of several of their books and includes the minotaur one.
And I know the books are available as PDFs.
I like them, but I'm not the rules guru you are. You may find issues with the books that I did not. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 02:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Locations:
Mindulgulph Mercenary Company.
Pros: pretty much the whole spectrum of missions; the whole panopticum (plus more "presentable" troops) are here to choose from, with participants fit for a particular operation; you have a base of operation much better than "a bunch of spear-chucking savages".
Cons: you're not a free adventurer, you have a boss; your archenemies are also small private armies.
quote:
Edition:
AD&D2
Cons: balance is done via "your stats mostly suck" method.
Pros: ...I thought you wanted a challenge? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 03:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Silver Marches is my go-to region. It has everything other than like jungle dwelling creatures. Just about every monstrous humanoid is there is numbers. There are entire orc kingdoms/cities, as well as large goblin, hobgoblin, and giant enclaves. There are some incredible opportunities to explore other races lore (giants are a great example). They have their own languages, art, culture, etc.
The best part about the whole Silver Marches/Spine area is there are plenty of lawless "empty" areas to explore and possibly set up your own kingdoms/tribes of any race. There is no one around in many of those places to care if you found a "monstrous" community/collective.
The Silver Marches is definitely a great location. Not too far from other civilized areas but with enough "empty" space to really create whatever is needed. I'm pretty sure there's some ruins near there that could serve as a make-shift gladiator-ring, correct?
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Right now for me Pathfinder is the best balance of crunch/realism. The best part about Pathfinder is all the 3 and 3.5 edition stuff can be easily used along side it.
I agree Pathfinder is a better upgrade than 3.5 but I don't know how hard it would be to have a myriad of Monstrous characters at the same level. My friend expressed a desire to play a Minotaur, which has 6 Hit Die starting off. So if I have a Minotaur, Goblin, Drow, and Bugbear in a group it's going to be pretty difficult coming up with encounters and threats that will be challenging to everyone in the party.
There are countless ruins in the Marches. Countless ruins just in the Spine of the World. You could literally put anything any where it suited you.
As for the rules, Pathfinder seems to be much less dependent on EL and CR than 3rd ed was. You don't have to worry about level adjustments or anything like that. Just have reasonable stat lines.
We currently have a hobgoblin in our group. I love the way Pathfinder treats the monster races. They don't shy away from monsters, or water them down to be like every other race.
Hobgoblins ARE faster, tougher and sneakier than the average human by comparison so that's the way they are presented in the rules.
I love it.
The best thing about Pathfinder is if there is something you don't like or you're looking for optional rules, you can bet there is a 3rd party product already created to suit your needs. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 12 May 2016 03:19:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 03:19:59
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I had a hell of a lot of fun playing a 2E minotaur. 20 years later, he remains one of my favorite characters.
19 Strength was awesome. Most of his stats were 9s or 11s, but that 19 more than made up for the rest of his stats.  |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 11:26:32
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| how about trying to play some official adventure in reverse? Like taking the story and look on it from monsters perspective? I am not sure they can handle it as they are usualy made with single purpose but with some twisting you might get a fun, especialy if players already done it from the other side... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 21:01:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Rite Publishing has a book called In the Company of Minotaurs; the book is for Pathfinder. It gives options for minotaur NPCs, without that huge hit die bonus. It's a 20-something page book with a lot of PC options, as well as stuff on minotaur lives.
They've actually got a small buttload of those "In the Company of..." books, but that's one of the few I'm familiar. There's another, In the Company of Monsters, that is a compilation of several of their books and includes the minotaur one.
And I know the books are available as PDFs.
I like them, but I'm not the rules guru you are. You may find issues with the books that I did not.
Hm, that's interesting. I'll have to check on that. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 21:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Locations:
Mindulgulph Mercenary Company.
Pros: pretty much the whole spectrum of missions; the whole panopticum (plus more "presentable" troops) are here to choose from, with participants fit for a particular operation; you have a base of operation much better than "a bunch of spear-chucking savages".
Cons: you're not a free adventurer, you have a boss; your archenemies are also small private armies.
That's ccol. Where do I find more information about it? It sounds like something the PCs might want to get into after their escape.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Edition:
AD&D2
Cons: balance is done via "your stats mostly suck" method.
Pros: ...I thought you wanted a challenge?
Hehe, well only 2 people (myself and one other) have played anything pre-3e and I think the rules gap and....ah....expectations would be vastly different to go that route. Also, I don't have any of the books.
As for a challenge, 1st level 3.5 apparently is doing that right now. Already 1 TPK so far. The group does learn though and their new 1st level characters quietly slipped past a preoccupied Troll instead of attacking it. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
Edited by - Diffan on 12 May 2016 21:06:56 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 21:13:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
As for a challenge, 1st level 3.5 apparently is doing that right now. Already 1 TPK so far. The group does learn though and their new 1st level characters quietly slipped past a preoccupied Troll instead of attacking it.
 |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 21:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
There are countless ruins in the Marches. Countless ruins just in the Spine of the World. You could literally put anything any where it suited you.
As for the rules, Pathfinder seems to be much less dependent on EL and CR than 3rd ed was. You don't have to worry about level adjustments or anything like that. Just have reasonable stat lines.
We currently have a hobgoblin in our group. I love the way Pathfinder treats the monster races. They don't shy away from monsters, or water them down to be like every other race.
Hobgoblins ARE faster, tougher and sneakier than the average human by comparison so that's the way they are presented in the rules.
I love it.
The best thing about Pathfinder is if there is something you don't like or you're looking for optional rules, you can bet there is a 3rd party product already created to suit your needs.
Well I found some info on Minotaurs as PCs on Pathfinders OGL site.
I'll put it to a vote for system and see where they go. Pathfinder and 4e seem to have the best out of the box options and both are fun systems.
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 21:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
how about trying to play some official adventure in reverse? Like taking the story and look on it from monsters perspective? I am not sure they can handle it as they are usualy made with single purpose but with some twisting you might get a fun, especialy if players already done it from the other side...
That's actually a pretty cool adventure idea. When he PCs escape they'll have to find shelter and food soon after. This will most likely mean a cave, dilapidated building, or some other "scary" place that monsters would hide (and adventurers would plunder).
What would be even better is if the players came across the remains of an attacked caravan, loot and all still there, and they fight off the monsters who attacked. Then a group of ne'er-do-wells come looking and find the PCs, thinking they're the ones who attacked the caravan. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 21:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Locations:
Mindulgulph Mercenary Company.
Pros: pretty much the whole spectrum of missions; the whole panopticum (plus more "presentable" troops) are here to choose from, with participants fit for a particular operation; you have a base of operation much better than "a bunch of spear-chucking savages".
Cons: you're not a free adventurer, you have a boss; your archenemies are also small private armies.
That's ccol. Where do I find more information about it? It sounds like something the PCs might want to get into after their escape.
I think that most, if not all, of the information about them is in a 2E book, FR15 Gold & Glory. This book was formerly available as a free pdf from WotC, until they took down the downloads page. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 06:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Locations:
Mindulgulph Mercenary Company.
Pros: pretty much the whole spectrum of missions; the whole panopticum (plus more "presentable" troops) are here to choose from, with participants fit for a particular operation; you have a base of operation much better than "a bunch of spear-chucking savages".
Cons: you're not a free adventurer, you have a boss; your archenemies are also small private armies.
That's ccol. Where do I find more information about it? It sounds like something the PCs might want to get into after their escape.
I think that most, if not all, of the information about them is in a 2E book, FR15 Gold & Glory. This book was formerly available as a free pdf from WotC, until they took down the downloads page.
Ill have to step up my google-fu... |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 08:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think that most, if not all, of the information about them is in a 2E book, FR15 Gold & Glory. This book was formerly available as a free pdf from WotC, until they took down the downloads page.
FRindex lists 4 other sources. Also, index in FR15 itself refers back to the Grey Box.
Which means Gayrlana is likely to be the first canon diplomancer ever. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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montaa
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2016 : 20:15:06
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We successfully ran several humanoid "monster" campaigns in 3.5e. As a DM I kept the stat bonuses for just about everything to a max gain loss of +4. I think minotaurs have a +6 strength bonus.
The stats advantages are offset by the fact that pretty much everything else in the game hates you:
Humans, Elfs, Dwarves, Halflings - Centuries of killing and being killed by your kind
<Racial Origin Species> - Hates you for not playing by their rules/turning your back on the tribe/country/race
Monster monsters - you = lunch
Rust Monsters - Still loving if you are a Druid :)
Buying weapons is hard. Finding shelter and food is hard. There is no "help" anywhere in the world.
As a player I played a minotaur warrior who kicked serious butt. This was tempered by our DM by the simple addition of more nasties between our party and the goal. The reach advantage was huge, the strength bonus was great and the prevalence of bad guys with nets and bolas was annoying :) |
Doing it for the story! :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12008 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 01:52:21
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orcs, minotaurs, goblins, kobolds, etc
plus gladiators
Hmmmmmm, what about Thay. You could have them possibly even use the Thayan Gladiator prestige class from Champions of Ruin. There's also the "blooded one" template from Unapproachable East for modifying humanoids magically. There's also the red and black neo-orogs from the 2nd edition spellbound for your folks looking to do orcs. All those races would fit Thay, plus you could also throw in centaurs fairly easily as an option. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 01:27:40
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| This topic made me want to dig out and open up the often underused The Complete Book of Humanoids from the days of 2e. |
- Ryan |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 04:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
This topic made me want to dig out and open up the often underused The Complete Book of Humanoids from the days of 2e.
That book -- and a set of stats I had no idea what to do with -- was where my 2E minotaur came from. |
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PCs as Monstrous Humanoids
