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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 22:45:36
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So here's my question.
There are at least three sourcebooks. Monster's of Faerun, Lords of Darkness, and Races of Faerun where it says Fey'ri are elven tieflings.
However, there is a poster over on the WOTC boards who doesn't agree.
So let's debate it. Are Fey'ri elven tieflings or not?
Talok posted: Feyri are more powerful than elven tieflings. They have a lot of spell-like abilities plus wings that allow flight. I'd say that they are closer to a half-fiend than a tiefling. The description of lesser planetouched races is just for the ECL +1 races.
My reply: "They are still just elven tieflings.
FR's Monster Manual: "Fer'ri are tieflings descended from elves and demons."
Besides they can't be half demons because some of thier ancestors were half demons. And so they are elven tieflings."
Cunning Linguist jumps in with: "Well, the fey'ri are more "pure" then your run of the mill tiefling. They get a -2 con for the inbreeding that has been done during there existence. So it's more along the lines of Half Fiend, breeds with Half fiends, there decendence breed with another half fiend and so on. In the end you get a Fey'ri, a more pure form of Fiend/elf then the half fiend, but more fiend then a teifling."
My reply: "They are still only elven tieflings, that just breed true among themselves. They are not half-demons. Sigh.
Again Monster's of Faerun says: Fey'ri (Tiefling). Planed touched, Tiefling, Fey'ri. Fey'ri are tieflings descended from elvens and demons.
Lord of Darkness says they are elven tieflings: "Fey'ri (tieflings descended from elf-demon crossbreeds.)"
Races says: "They are the descendents of sun elves and demons."
That right there makes them elven tieflings. Since normal tieflings are the descendents of humans and lower planar creatures.
If you want them to be half-demons or more demonish, then do so, but they are not, they are elven tieflings."
Cunning: "Races says: Fey'ri are a type of planetouched that breeds true among their own kind. Marked by the findish blood, fey'ri are unique among most planetouched in that they have a self-suistaining community.
Teiflings on the other hand: Tieflings are the distant decendants of a human and some evil outsider.
-and-
Fiend-touched and similary tainted mixes of elves, orcs and other races are known, but those are distinct lines and are not true tieflings."
My reply: "Better check your sources again. Yes they breed true but again they are elven tieflings. Can't believe you don't believe this.
Races again says: Fey'ri ARE DESCENDENTS OF SUN ELVES AND DEMONS!. Page 118, 2nd paragraph on the top right.
So combine that was the other 3e sources and it says for the last time, I hope!, that Fey'ri are elven tieflings.
Normal tieflings are the descendents of humans and a lower planar being. Fey'ri (elven tieflings) are the descendents of elves and lower planar beings, I.E. demons.
Why is this so hard to understand?"
Cunning: This line:
quote:
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Fiend-touched and similary tainted mixes of elves, orcs and other races are known, but those are distinct lines and are not true tieflings.
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is from races of Faerun, I don't need more then that to say "they are not teiflings"."
My reply: "That's great and all, and what page is that on? But they are still elven tieflings, since there are at least two other sources that back that up. Of course that are not the tieflings that are descended from human's and lower planar creatures.
Do you even know what tieflings are? They are descendents of lower planar creatures and humans.
So then since Fey'ri are decendents of elves and lower planar creatures, they are then elven tieflings and there are at least two other books that backs this up.
Just like the tannark's are orc tieflings and the other tieflings that are in Fiend Folio. Maeluths are dwarven tieflings. Wisplings are halfling tieflings."
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 23:19:22
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Both camps are correct.
The problem stems for the usage of the word tiefling.
One group views tiefling to mean any descendant from a cross-breding with a lower-planar being which is less than a half-breed, but still plane-touched. This would include the fey'ri and tanarukka.
The other group views tiefling to mean the +1 ecl write up that tieflings already have.
The confusion is the use of the term tiefling for both the larger community of lower-plane-touched and the specific category of tiefling with its own write up.
This is akin to arguing that orogs are not orcs. This is both true and untrue depending on what one means by orc. If one is talking about the specific write up on orcs in the Monster Manual, than the argument is true. If one is speaking of the larger category of orcs in general, then the argument is false.
Sarta |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 23:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
Both camps are correct.
The problem stems for the usage of the word tiefling.
One group views tiefling to mean any descendant from a cross-breding with a lower-planar being which is less than a half-breed, but still plane-touched. This would include the fey'ri and tanarukka.
The other group views tiefling to mean the +1 ecl write up that tieflings already have.
The confusion is the use of the term tiefling for both the larger community of lower-plane-touched and the specific category of tiefling with its own write up.
This is akin to arguing that orogs are not orcs. This is both true and untrue depending on what one means by orc. If one is talking about the specific write up on orcs in the Monster Manual, than the argument is true. If one is speaking of the larger category of orcs in general, then the argument is false.
Sarta
True, but then they should not have been titled Tieflings in Monsters of Faerun.
To further clarify. :)
Monsters of Faerun, Page 73, "This entry describes two varient tieflings, descended not from human stock, but from elf and orc ancestors."
Lords of Darkness page 126, "The daemonfey collectively comprise a clan of evil, magically talented half-fiends and fey'ri(tieflings descended from elf-demon crossbreeds)....." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 00:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
True, but then they should not have been titled Tieflings in Monsters of Faerun.
To further clarify. :)
Monsters of Faerun, Page 73, "This entry describes two varient tieflings, descended not from human stock, but from elf and orc ancestors."
Lords of Darkness page 126, "The daemonfey collectively comprise a clan of evil, magically talented half-fiends and fey'ri(tieflings descended from elf-demon crossbreeds)....."
Which is why I believe Cunning was trying to differentiate between the specific with the term tiefling and the general with the term plane-touched.
Sarta |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 00:47:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
Which is why I believe Cunning was trying to differentiate between the specific with the term tiefling and the general with the term plane-touched.
Sarta
Hmm maybe, but his arguement is that there never has been, or there never will be an elven tiefling, since tieflings can only be descendents from humans. Which is not true since Fey'ri's are elven tieflings. And there are orc, dwarven, and halfling tieflings as well. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Mar 2004 00:47:41 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 09:25:48
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Being the Planescape devotee that I am, I've always thought of the Fey'ri as tieflings, much of the PS material suggests this fact, and so I have no reason to dispute it. Of course, I've never read anything that has made me re-evaluate what the original 2e products said, so my opinions on this will remain the same.
You may want to look into the 2e PSMC Appendix series. It discusses (in detail) the relationships between the elves and demons, and how it would eventually lead to the creation of the Fey'ri (tieflings).
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 18:42:57
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| He finally admitted he was wrong. :) His arguement was mostly, that Races of Faerun (since it was the newest sourcebook) said there are only human descended tieflings. However, he forgot to check the Web Enchancement that came out for the Player's Guide which also lists Fey'ri as elven tieflings. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2004 : 03:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
He finally admitted he was wrong. :)
Well, that's something unique to find; someone online who will admit when they are wrong. A special person indeed. But, then again, I may be wrong.  |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2004 : 04:17:40
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I'm not too surprised actually. Cunning has made some very good posts over on WotC's site.
I can actually really sympathize with what he was attempting to do. With 3.0 and 3.5, WotC really put forth an effort to create a standard of gaming terms which left specific definitions unambiguous.
It is confusing to have to guess whether a person is referencing the specific example of tiefling as presented in the Races of Faerun book or whether they are referencing the entire category of lower-planetouched.
I can understand the lure of simplifying things so that the term tiefling only references the specific, rather than the group.
The only real problem with falling into this trap is that it stifles DM creativity when it comes to creating unique tieflings or species of tieflings. It is my opinion that DM's can and should feel free to create new hybrids for their games and not have to worry about over-stepping their bounds.
Sarta |
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radwizard
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2004 : 17:28:17
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The original 2E product Cloak & Dagger listed Fey-ri as Tieflings. It stated that they are not true half-demons, but anything from a 1/4 on down (at least 1/2 elf & anything lower than 1/4 demon).
Demon-fey are 1/2 demons (1/2 elf & 1/2 demon) |
That Which does not kill us makes us stronger |
Edited by - radwizard on 29 Mar 2004 17:28:52 |
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Alrunes Sinethal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 19:32:10
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I was enarmored with the 1e cambion, which was subsequently "destroyed" with the 3e half-fiend. Gaining a bunch of spells (boring) is simply not the same as choosing from a set of powers. Set-of-powers somehow define the creature's nature more specifically , and having the choice to choose (4 out of the set) powers lends these creatures mortality.
Ever notice the similarity between the Fey'ri and the 1e cambion? Maybe I am not the only one to miss the old cambion |
.........reborned from the ashes
belovéd of the dead............. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 09:50:29
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No, you're not the only one...
I used to enjoy having an odd cambion pop up in my campaigns to confound the party every now and then. These days, Fey'ri fill that role.
Besides, it's a little hard to actually forgot about cambions, especially if you're a Greyhawk fan. I'm talking about Iuz of course, the most well known cambion (well actually half-cambion, at least by way of his father, the Demon Lord Graz'zt)...
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 17:04:06
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| Ah, Cambions... Yes, we fans of the Greyhawk setting do not forget, Sage. Just refreshing my memory, but Graz'zt was the one who imprisoned Waukeen, correct? |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 17:44:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Ah, Cambions... Yes, we fans of the Greyhawk setting do not forget, Sage. Just refreshing my memory, but Graz'zt was the one who imprisoned Waukeen, correct?
You are correct. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 04:12:51
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Actually, just continuing this focus of questioning...
Does anyone remember Iuz's mother's name? I recall that she was a powerful Witch, but I don't have access to my books at the moment.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 05:37:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, just continuing this focus of questioning...
Does anyone remember Iuz's mother's name? I recall that she was a powerful Witch, but I don't have access to my books at the moment.
Gods, it's been years since I read any Greyhawk... I'm recalling two females in connection with Iuz -- his mother and his lover, I believe. Their names were something like Iggwilv and Zuggtmoy, but I can't remember which was which, and I know those are spelled wrong. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 06:37:29
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It was Igglwilv, and she was a powerful wizardress as well.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Alrunes Sinethal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 02:12:32
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ooo Iggwilv, *sigh* the good old days when woman were evil (Just Kidding!) then Lara Croft has to go spoil it and now we have good heroines. FR needs a cool character like Baba Yaga (she is from Greyhawk right? Though she was mentioned in Daugter of the Drow) I know ya gonna say the Simbul, but she is not an evil witch. Close enough I suppose. How about I introduce you to Circeress, my greek inspired archwitch with her authentic cauldron that brews evil minions and plots  covered with a sugar-cake veneer, that doesn't stay dead like Manshoon and Fzoul. Don't you think Manshoon needs a new girlfriend since the Shadowsil? Woo hoo! Here comes the half-vampire/day walker.
Father forgive me for I am a certified plagiarist. |
.........reborned from the ashes
belovéd of the dead............. |
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NinjaGirl
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2005 : 21:26:41
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I have a question if anyone knows can you e-mail me at allytigress@yahoo.com.
Are there Fey'ri in eberron? I want to play one but my group is sticking to the eberron setting. thanks. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 01:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by NinjaGirl
I have a question if anyone knows can you e-mail me at allytigress@yahoo.com.
Are there Fey'ri in eberron? I want to play one but my group is sticking to the eberron setting. thanks.
I'm no expert on the Eberron setting, and in fact only have two of the sourcebooks. However, unless I am quite mistaken, the fey'ri are a Realms-only race. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 01:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by NinjaGirl
I have a question if anyone knows can you e-mail me at allytigress@yahoo.com.
Are there Fey'ri in eberron? I want to play one but my group is sticking to the eberron setting. thanks.
I'm no expert on the Eberron setting, and in fact only have two of the sourcebooks. However, unless I am quite mistaken, the fey'ri are a Realms-only race.
No. There are no fey'ri present on Eberron, unless of course you personally as the DM, want them there. If that's the case, then you'll need to have a pretty decent explanation for why they exist.
There's certainly a place for them, especially with regard to the Lords of Dust -- they'd make intriguing servants for the fallen fiend lords. Or perhaps they were mutations created by the Daelkyr thousands of year ago during the last Xoriat incursion.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 02:25:05
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| Iggwilv was indeed Iuz mother, by Graz'zt. Iggwilv's history is summarized in the latest Dragon Magazine, along with the contents of the Demonomicon, a book attributed to her. In the article they also posit that she may be related to the infamous Baba Yaga. Also, to bring this all back to the Realms, they mention that several times in her history she has taken to travelling the planes and has been to various alternate primes as well as Greyhawk. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 02:35:27
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Iggwilv was indeed Iuz mother, by Graz'zt. Iggwilv's history is summarized in the latest Dragon Magazine, along with the contents of the Demonomicon, a book attributed to her. In the article they also posit that she may be related to the infamous Baba Yaga. Also, to bring this all back to the Realms, they mention that several times in her history she has taken to travelling the planes and has been to various alternate primes as well as Greyhawk.
Baba Yaga's hut is present in the Realms. Elaine used it in the beginning of Daughter of the Drow.
I'll be dipped if I can remember where it was, but I recall a reference to Baba Yaga's hut holding a Russian tank, among other things. And in the module by that name, there was a nifty concept, I thought: the ghost of a cyborg, with the spirit still stuck to the cyberware. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2005 02:38:29 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 04:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Iggwilv was indeed Iuz mother, by Graz'zt. Iggwilv's history is summarized in the latest Dragon Magazine, along with the contents of the Demonomicon, a book attributed to her. In the article they also posit that she may be related to the infamous Baba Yaga. Also, to bring this all back to the Realms, they mention that several times in her history she has taken to travelling the planes and has been to various alternate primes as well as Greyhawk.
There's also some specific (and mostly official) lore on both Iggwilv and the Demonomicon on the GREYHAWK site Canonfire.
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 08:50:36
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From where I am sitting, whether fey'ri are tieflings or not, they are undoubtedly yet another example of vyshaan arrogance and greed betraying the Corellonian ideal to which elves ought to aspire. They are evil, and must be destroyed. We can dissect them afterwards, if you really think it matters.
((Sorry - my character wanted to respond, so that was "IC". Since fey'ri use a different template, I'd class them as perhaps a sort of tiefling, but more their own unfortunate thing.)) |
Edited by - Vangelor on 28 Sep 2005 08:52:07 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 13:02:44
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Fey'ri are awesome. And the Vyshaanti were correct in their rise to power, using the true powers available to them.
(Ok, well, that was IC as well)
I think they are just more of a specific race than a tiefling as they are partially immortal and not just of a general planar nature. More later, about to get in trouble for using the business computer in training for this. :)
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Fey'ri
