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Matrix Sorcica
Seeker
Denmark
89 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 21:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Corellon never meant for the 'Drow' to happen - it may have been a trap set thousands of years before. 
Similar to what happened to tieflings in 4e, come to think of it...
EDIT: ... and the Irda (Ogres) of Krynn (which I've recently folded into my over-cosmology).
And the drow of Golarion |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11820 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 22:16:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Kind of how Strahd was created as well - love and hate are two sides of the same coin. (poisoning an emotion changes its nature, but not its strength.)
@Gyor: I believe Zandilar IS considered a semi-deceased archfey at this point (I say 'semi' because she didn't die, she became part of something else... and if you go with my homebrew lore for her and Baast, they were the same all along - two aspects of an archtype).
Whilst trying to make my Obyrith-Fey connections, I came across all sorts of juicy demon/abyss lore. Man, I wish I hadn't of hated on 4e so much - there is a BUNCH of goodies we missed out on the first time around. Pale Night was far more prolific than I had given her credit for (and at least two of her children DO look like 'dark elves'). In fact, I'm going to use the hell out of that - their skin is JET BLACK, long before 'Drow' ever existed!
Homebrew: When Corellon 'cursed' them to go underground, he set-off something in their bloodline - they became closer to their ancient demonic ancestry. The FIRST 'dark Elves' were pure black, and those others - the Ilythiir - were just brown (tan) elves from the south who got adopted by the 'first family of elven darkness'. Corellon never meant for the 'Drow' to happen - it may have been a trap set thousands of years before.
Similar to what happened to tieflings in 4e, come to think of it...
EDIT: ... and the Irda (Ogres) of Krynn (which I've recently folded into my over-cosmology).
Yeah, I still think the 4e ruleset sucks to high heaven, and I was non-plussed with what they did to Toril which turned me away immediately. However a lot of the lore I saw that came later was interesting. It also came with a lot of continuity issues too though (possibly more than previous versions... possibly not). However, some of the concepts I feel were good ones. Making planar domains not infinite, the work they did with the feywild, the abyss, the elemental chaos, and the shadowfell were all interesting.
Oh, and your noting of the "drow change" being similar to the "tiefling change".... one big difference... all beings changed into drow.... the tieflings just came with the next generation after the spellplague (i.e. existing tieflings still look the same).
Also, I've really been thinking on that concept of how the "shadow elves"/Arak/Ellefolk of ravenloft produce just any kind of their race. Then how elves themselves always "breed true" unless they cross with humans for some reason. I wonder if there wasn't some magic performed in the realmspace crystal sphere that might make elves (or the fey "species") breed true here, because we don't necessarily have that documented elsewhere..... and what's special about humans that they break this rule. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 22:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[quote]Oh, and your noting of the "drow change" being similar to the "tiefling change".... one big difference... all beings changed into drow.... the tieflings just came with the next generation after the spellplague (i.e. existing tieflings still look the same).
And tieflings born on other planes (and in Abeir) aren't cursed, so they can be a la Planescape (not tied to Asmodeus). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 22:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Matrix Sorcica
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Corellon never meant for the 'Drow' to happen - it may have been a trap set thousands of years before.
Similar to what happened to tieflings in 4e, come to think of it...
EDIT: ... and the Irda (Ogres) of Krynn (which I've recently folded into my over-cosmology).
And the drow of Golarion
thought they were corrupted by their demonic pacts they made to survive in the darklands.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 01:27:53
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| Yeah, is pretty good stuff. I guess that if demons can have tieflings, the other archdevils must as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 05:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I still think the 4e ruleset sucks to high heaven, and I was non-plussed with what they did to Toril which turned me away immediately. However a lot of the lore I saw that came later was interesting. It also came with a lot of continuity issues too though (possibly more than previous versions... possibly not). However, some of the concepts I feel were good ones. Making planar domains not infinite, the work they did with the feywild, the abyss, the elemental chaos, and the shadowfell were all interesting.
They may have actually done more to turn D&D into a 'megasetting' than 2e did, because whereas 2e gave us several omni-settings (PS, SJ, & RL) that connected all the worlds, they were still their own, seperate things. By making PS lore 'core' lore, and then have it apply across the board, they ruffled a LOT of feathers, but they homogenized D&D like never before... and 5e wa sable to rise from the ashes like a phoenix. The stuff concerning the Elemental Chaos, the Feywld, the Shadowfell, and the Astral are all top-notch, and better still, INTERCONNECTED. A lot of 2e lore was created in a vacuum, with zero concern for what other settings ad already said about the same stuff (I am currently reading through The Astromundi Cluster, to try to make sense of the illithid lore there, and MAN, is it gawd-awful...). In fact, one thing about it reminds me of 4e - its like they had a bucket of ideas how to do things, and rather than pick through them and use the best, they tried to use it all. Its just a mess. They should have called it the Astromundi Clusterf***.
But as for 4e doing some of that, and also how you said they gave us 'contradictory lore' - i am starting to see all of that in a new light as well. Having been doing the same exact things for the past 20 years that they did in 4e - try to merge all the disparate lore together into a cohesive whole for D&D - I am running into the same exact stumbling blocks they did. Some things have to be 'hazy', so as not to contradict something else. In that way, as much of the 'old lore' was able to remain intact (because saying stuff like, "This is definitely THIS" is very different than, "this thing may have been that, but others tell a different story...", which allows you to choose what works better for the setting - YOUR setting - you are using).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and your noting of the "drow change" being similar to the "tiefling change".... one big difference... all beings changed into drow.... the tieflings just came with the next generation after the spellplague (i.e. existing tieflings still look the same).
As I said, its a 'bloodline' thing. The ilithiir were of the 'blood of Night Queen' (Pale Night), just as the tieflings who were changed were 'of the blood of Asmodeus'. Not all dark elves changed into drow (i personally think ALL the Green elves of Miyiritar were considered 'dark elves' {skin tone}, but only the ones that can trace their bloodline directly back to PN became jet black. Tens of thousands of years is a long time, and thats why ALL (as far as we know) the southern dark elves changed - too much time had gone by and everyone had that blood. With the northern elves, it was as universal (because we have to also remember, pre-fall Dark Elves WERE Green elves - it was just an ethnicity).
As for the Irda, they were a branch of the Anaki (Nephilim); celestial giants mated with mortals from various races and created the Goliaths (human), Irda (Elves), and Fir Bholg (dwarves), creating 'planetouched' variant half-giants.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, I've really been thinking on that concept of how the "shadow elves"/Arak/Ellefolk of ravenloft produce just any kind of their race. Then how elves themselves always "breed true" unless they cross with humans for some reason. I wonder if there wasn't some magic performed in the Realmspace crystal sphere that might make elves (or the fey "species") breed true here, because we don't necessarily have that documented elsewhere..... and what's special about humans that they break this rule.
Good catch. 'Fey' forms were always mutable in the beginning - they took all those shapes whenever they wanted. Then eh first World came to an end and they got 'locked into' those shapes, EXCEPT for the ones who followed Danu out of the Prime Material to Faerie (most of those still retain the ability to change their forms to a certain degree). NOW, we have the Shadowrift elves who still seem to have this 'mutable form' option, but its out of their control. Just as I think Danu (who IS Faerie - she literally became the demi-plane itself can 'set the rules' of her Domain, so, too, can the 'Dark powers' of Ravenloft. They tapped into the Fey-bloodline ptential for change, and made it random (just one more form of torture for the Domains of Dread). On the other hand. we have the premise in FR that elves CAN'T change... and yet, we have tons of evidence they do. ANY elven subrace can become 'sea elves'. Lythari turn into wolves. Avariel fly. Queen Amlaruil's first born daughter Ilyrana was pure Fey - a throwback to ancient Eladrin bloodlines. And the moonswords will ONLY respond to pure elves... and yet we've seen a half-elf get one.
What I think is really going on there is a racial TABOO. After what happened to the drow, elves are in denial about their 'mutable forms'. They simply won't accept that an elf of one type can become another, unless they were 'cursed by the Seldarine'. Which is laughable, because I once-again give you the Sea Elves - all elves that chose to change form and DID (in the piece I did on 'Elven Physiology' in the Elven Netbook project, I surmised that they can no longer directly access this themselves - they need 'divine assistance'. Therefor, if they pray to Deep Sashelas (did you know he has a non-elven GF?), he answers their prayers and they become Sea elves.
Right now I am building a new premise (based on some of my old stuff + the 4e/5e material), where there were no 'racial Gods' in the 'Time before time' - that's a ridiculous thing to even have ever thought. There were three main groups of Uber-beings that first came to be - Estelar (concepts, ideas, and emotions given sentience), Eldermentals (a placeholder name for Elemental Lords the size and power of galaxies), and the interloper Obyriths... who I now see as the 'Gods' of another reality. Except I've been re-spinning how I see the Far Realms as well: As the bubble of the D&Dverse continues to expand outward, it isn't pushing the old Universe out of the way, its subsuming it - its literally 'eating' it and using its energy and matter to create this new one. In other words, OUR (D&D) universe is a ginormous Black Hole in THEIR universe. the 'Gods' of that universe banded-together (for the first time ever) and tried to figure-out a solution, but they were probably too late. And that other universe? the far realms? Its not 'infinite', like I used to think. it has an 'edge', but unlike ours (surrounded by a wall of pure Blackness). its a 'soft edge', where just NOTHING exists beyond it. Its 'the nothing'. They cant escape into that - there's nowhere to go in it. So out of desperation they came here (some of them - entire civilizations we'll never know about were wiped out). The last to come were the illithids - Ilsensine trusted the other Obyriths to halt the spread of the 'cancer' (Order), but it was too late. They were out of time. But that hasn't happened yet... not really. That's still about 2000 years off... for us.
But not for them.  {Duh duh duh!} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2017 00:30:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 06:10:18
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I was going to edit my last post, but I see that i did another 'wall of text' thing. Sorry.
But you may be right, Sleyvas, at least in part. It could be, after what happened to the Dark Elves (turning into Drow), Ao had Mystra put a little something into the Weave that retarded the 'morphic blood' in the fey, so that that particular 'trap' wouldn't work in Realmspace ever again. That some divine power could just snap its finger and change an entire race retroactively into something else. But then the Spellplague happened, and the Weave fell, and Tieflings changed...
As for humans... why are they so special? Didn't you know? We were born from the chaos. You don't think the 'Big Bang' just happened, do you? You don't think the illithids came to D&Dspace to enslave and annihilate humans for no reason, do you? That humans are known among the gods as 'the Race of Destiny'?
He-Who-Was: I think I'll create some people
Cabiri: Maybe you should give them some sort of benefit, you know, so they have something on the other races other gods are creating.
He-Who-Was: Hmmmmmm... thats a tough one. All the other kewl races are able to change themselves, to better survive.
Cabiri: Not the Aearee
He-Who-Was: But they can fly! they don't need to change themselves - they can go anywhere! They can change their circumstances!
Cabiri: So why not give your race something like that? The ability to 'adapt' to any and all challenges?
He-Who-Was: But how can I give them that? How can I give them something to face things we aren't even aware of yet?
Cabiri: Here, give them this... {pulls something out of his pocket... something dark, that seems to seethe and roil as if it were alive}
He-Who-Was: Ohhhh... whats that?
Cabiri: Pure Chaos... go on... try some... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2017 06:13:36 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 06:59:14
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and now we ahve the first known drug.
Pure Chaos such a high
sorry couldnt resist... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11820 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 15:17:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But as for 4e doing some of that, and also how you said they gave us 'contradictory lore' - i am starting to see all of that in a new light as well. Having been doing the same exact things for the past 20 years that they did in 4e - try to merge all the disparate lore together into a cohesive whole for D&D - I am running into the same exact stumbling blocks they did. Some things have to be 'hazy', so as not to contradict something else. In that way, as much of the 'old lore' was able to remain intact (because saying stuff like, "This is definitely THIS" is very different than, "this thing may have been that, but others tell a different story...", which allows you to choose what works better for the setting - YOUR setting - you are using).
<snip>
Right now I am building a new premise (based on some of my old stuff + the 4e/5e material), where there were no 'racial Gods' in the 'Time before time' - thats a ridiculous thing to even have ever thought. There were three main groups of Uber-beings that first came to be - Estelar (concepts, ideas, and emotions given sentience), Eldermentals (a placeholder name for Elemental Lords the size and power of galaxies), and the interloper Obyriths... who I now see as the 'Gods' of another reality. Except I've been re-spinning how I see the Far Realms as well: As the buddle of the D&Dverse continues to expand outward, it isn't pushing the old Universe out of the way, its subsuming it - its literally 'eating' it and using its energy and matter to create this new one. In other words, OUR (D&D) universe is a ginormous Black Hole in THEIR universe.
Yep, the more I try to break this "stuff" down, the more I'm leaning towards showing the concepts here from other cultures for discussion, but in the final "product" making things very vague. As I said in threads, I want to have Tyr, Helm, Lathander, Ubtao, Talos, Cyric, Sune, Eldath, etc... all available in Abeir. However, I'm also leaving it vague as to who they are. My "Metahel" (aka kinda Norse) Pantheon for instance has Anachtar, Hemdahl, Frethander, Eldunna, and Valigor Runtborn who COULD represent Tyr, Helm, Lathander, Eldath, and Cyric. It also has Sifya, whom some think is the red knight, others Inanna, others Zandilar the dancer, others Eilistraee... It also has Thoros, who some think is Talos, others think is Ramman, or the great spirit Sho'tokunungwa of Anchorome/the Azuposi, etc...
To add a little bit more interesting nature to this, I'm also including the concept that when they went to Abeir, there were no clerics anymore, and all clerics were "converted" to the rules "priestess: ancient world divine class" from DM's Guild. An interesting aspect of this will be that let's say you're a follower of Thoros, and you go to a temple of Ramman to worship in Peleveran, or a temple of Talos in the Lopango jungle, or Sho'tokunungwa in the Pasocada basin of Anchorome... you can renew your spells. This just feeds this confusion amongst mortals.
Oh, and on the concept of no racial deities, yeah, you'll see I basically just said this exact same thing in another thread. Also, kind of put in the same concepts of the various power groups (i.e. elemental chaos, astral sea, far realm... except I also included shadowfell and feywild)
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Oct 2017 15:22:52 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11820 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 15:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But you may be right, Sleyvas, at least in part. It could be, after what happened to the Dark Elves (turning into Drow), Ao had Mystra put a little something into the Weave that retarded the 'morphic blood' in the fey, so that that particular 'trap' wouldn't work in Realmspace ever again. That some divine power could just snap its finger and change an entire race retroactively into something else. But then the Spellplague happened, and the Weave fell, and Tieflings changed...
HMMMMMMMM, timing is everything isn't it. That's GOOD! Perhaps even Asmodeus had some involvement with the death of Mystra just so he could "use" Azuth's power to SOMEHOW cause this ritual. Might it even have had something to do with "hurling the abyss into the elemental chaos".
In a similar vein, could similar rituals have caused the creation of Rakshasa and/or Efreeti from devils long ago by other entities. Similarly, maybe the slaad came from some kind of similar ritual to enhance the power of batrachi. For instance, maybe Kossuth created the Efreeti using a similar ritual and stole beings from Asmodeus.
On this subject though, might this effect NOT have extended to Abeir, such that we have some tieflings who come back and have children who don't breed true. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Matrix Sorcica
Seeker
Denmark
89 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 22:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Matrix Sorcica
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Corellon never meant for the 'Drow' to happen - it may have been a trap set thousands of years before.
Similar to what happened to tieflings in 4e, come to think of it...
EDIT: ... and the Irda (Ogres) of Krynn (which I've recently folded into my over-cosmology).
And the drow of Golarion
thought they were corrupted by their demonic pacts they made to survive in the darklands....
True, but 'normal' very wicked elves can spontaneously turn into drow, so vaguely similar to what Markustay suggested regarding Corellon and drow. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 01:29:43
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Yes, this is my thoughts as well - there is a 'trigger' event, which is usualy a god (or group of gods) trying to force something onto an entire sub-group of people, and triggers something in their bloodline. However, it can work just as well with archfiends primordials - heck, just about anyone in the tier above 'mortal' Then again, why just limit it to non-mortals (old-school 'outsiders')? I know of at least two cases right off the top of my head where a mortal had his bloodline change ALL of his descendants and create a new race (one in K-T, involving gnolls, strangely enough, and also the Maluagrym).
Combining magic with RW genetics, it could be that 'outsider' becomes a recessive gene in the Prime Material, and the influences from that doesn't naturally emerge unless triggered by an powerful influence from the plane involved (normally - but not limited to - divine influence). Sort of how mutants don't know they are mutants until a major change to their physiology occurs (like puberty), and then suddenly, they become something else.
In fact, to go way out on a limb here, we could even say lycanthropy is a related thing, triggered by the moon itself (they used to call such people lunatics for a reason). A recessive gene is trigger and it becomes the dominant gene (in the case of were-creatures, only temporarily).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In a similar vein, could similar rituals have caused the creation of Rakshasa and/or Efreeti from devils long ago by other entities. Similarly, maybe the slaad came from some kind of similar ritual to enhance the power of batrachi. For instance, maybe Kossuth created the Efreeti using a similar ritual and stole beings from Asmodeus.
On this subject though, might this effect NOT have extended to Abeir, such that we have some tieflings who come back and have children who don't breed true.
As for Rakshasa, I have my own, separate backstory for them, tying them to Bast and the pharonic pantheon, of all things.
As for the Slaad, I was tying them to the Shadvari, for no other reason than they looked alike (and both are creepy, 'ancient outsiders'). Still not sure what I want to finally do with them, now that I am changing everything again. Maybe say they were (originally) creatures from the Elderverse as well, and Erebus enlisted them to defend the 'wall of reality' from anyone trying to breach it from either direction (they would be one of the few creatures able to freely traverse Erebus' realm, which is the 'Wall of Blackness' itself, at the edge of reality. Hmmmm... I need a better name for that thing - the 'Darkwall'? Kind of like a more universal version of GoT's Icewall... which I suppose means I just made the Shadvari my 'Night's Watch' (heck, the name even fits LOL).
Then I can just say that the Slaad Lords were Obyriths (the Elderverse's version of Gods), and that they recruited new 'Slaad' from the ranks of the Batrachi, which would tie together everything I want to tie together. In fact, I can even go back to some other musings I had for them - that 'Ba' is an ancient prefix meaning 'tainted' (evil), and 'ri' is an ancient suffix meaning 'corrupted' (chaotic). Thus the original Creator race were really the Trachi (amphibians), until they turned to evil (and 'Tanar' is an ancient word for 'elemental', thus Tanar'ri becomes 'corrupted elemental'). And, of course, the Tezu - and ancient word 'angel' (I am now using the 4e/5e lexicon, not my own), so Ba'tezu is just a fallen (evil) angel.
So the Slaad Lords didn't come over with the other Obyriths (even they didn't like them LOL), they made a deal with Erebus to cross over, and had to give him their 'Shadow Slaad' (the Shadvari).
So maybe the Trachi (pre-evil Batrachi) were more octopoidal, as some of the lore says, and they didn't get froggie-looking until after the Slaad Lords became involved. I am starting to build a 'cosmic drama' in the elderverse - some groups were 'left out of the plan' to push the Shard into the D&Dverse and corrupt it, and now they are at odds with the others (Obyriths). Thus, we have beings from the Far Realms causing certain creatures to STOP looking all 'tentacley' (they may have purposely targeted the Trachi because they looked like something that would naturally ally with their rivals).
MAN... did I go off on a tangent... 
As for the Efreeti, the only thoughts I've ever given to them is that they look suspiciously like the Oni from OA (so I'm thinking K-T's Oni are really just their name for Dgen).
As for tieflings and Abeir - I think any being 'not there' for the trigger event (and Abeir was 'out of sync' with normal space), would not be affected after said event had run its course. This means tielfings could come over from Abeir and not be affected. By the same token, if a DM (or author) wanted them to be affected, there are plenty of McGuffins one could come up with (even just walking into a Tiefling town). Anywhere you can say has some sort of 'residue' from the trigger event could trigger a secondary event (or not - its up to each individual).
Another thing - dragonborn (even though you didn't mention them) - I am too unfamiliar with the various creation-myths we have surrounding them, but it seems to me you can even put some of that confusion off on this 'bloodline' stuff (because you have multiple dragons being involved in their creation).
Lastly, back to Elves (because this is a FEY thread) - maybe we overlooked the obvious here. We picked it up on the drow, and I mentioned other subraces, but sea Elves... they've always interested me. What if, it isn't that ALL elves can just walk over to a body of water and 'wish themselves aquatic'? What if, those were all elves with a Sashelas bloodline, and they "felt the sea calling to them"? Not all elves can turn 'fishy', but perhaps all that one with the proper bloodline need do is stare deep into the blue waters and open their hearts? A wishy-washy 'trigger event', I know, but still valid. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2017 01:36:56 |
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4E Archfey - anyone have a list of sorts
