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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2016 : 14:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
My hopes for 5e was that it will heal this wound but from what I hear it make it even more confusing and open.
That's because WotC wanted a retcon/reboot, but tried to make it look like an in-universe event, without really providing a satisfying explanation for most things. They basically said ''stuff is back, now shut up''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2016 : 15:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, hate Cyric because I think he's a weak and pathetic git. He had the chance to be a decent person, but he chose expediency over decency. He didn't become a bad guy out of ambition or anything; it was just easier than being a good guy.
He has no personal strength. I can't respect someone like that.
And then there's everything he's done since then. He obsessed over Kelemvor, as a way to get back at Midnight for Lurue only knows what reason. He came up with a nifty if way megalomaniacal plot, and drove himself crazy by being the only one to fall for it. And he's done a lot of little stuff that seems to be being evil for the sake of being evil.
Cyric is a cariacature. He's a mustache-twirling wannabe villain.
I agree, Wooly. Cyric had a well-developed backstory in Shadowdale and Tantras, but that was all blown away in Waterdeep. He started to come back to someone with motive and shrewdness in Prince of Lies and was saved from the brink of saving us readers from misery in Crucible. Cyric had the potential to be a character with a lot of depth, but instead he was written to be the most evil god imaginable before he even ascended to godhood. Since Spellplague happened after he was "cured," he should have known that killing Mystra would destabilize his own magic, not just kill her. (I blame this on the people at Wizards not understanding Mystra as much as anything). But the biggest reason 5E isn't working is because of the time shift. They said "OK, we put the world back the way you wanted it, and here's your pantheon back" but all of the human characters in the novels are either long dead, or the authors have to come up with fantastical means to bring them forward. I miss Cormyr as it was under Azoun IV, and the intrigue of the new era doesn't interest me at all. I could go on, but that's what I see as the fundamental problem. If I were in charge of WoTC, I would have branched off 4E as an unsupported campaign world and returned to publishing things circa the 3E world, a "true" successor. Dead/Not Dead deities are only one of the many problems with 5E, but they are a large one when it comes to confusion. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2016 : 15:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I agree with you that the ''explanation'' provided is really disappointing. It basically is: ''the Sundering happens, and then gods and nations are back. Here is the current state'' (although the 4e gods are still around, this time WotC only added rather than taking away).
However, regarding your points. Azuth is listed as currently active because the SCAG describes the status quo of the FR in 1491 DR (or so), while Erin's book are dealing with his return, among the other things (and IIRC in one of Erin's books, Azuth is hinted as being alive, although struggling to free himself from Asmodeus).
As for the portfolios, the explanation for their re-distribution is handwaved away with the Sundering and Ao (yet again). I agree that the splitting is rather weird, but it is a way to bring back mutliple potentially overlapping deities. Bhaal's portfolio seems to be a part of Myrkul's, though, but you could see him as a god of assassins. I know that it's not satisfying (and things like this are the reason why there's a lot of the FR history that I completely ignore), but if you really care about staying close to canon, then that's what WotC said.
There are things, like Dove being alive, which do indeed contradict what has happened in the novels, and they are too handwaved away.
Right, but either they released a major "spoiler" to Erin's books, and they are also telling us not to worry when Ed kills a character, because they're not really dead, or they're ignoring the novels entirely. Since I don't know which one it is, I don't know how to run my game and keep it "attuned" to the world. I have avid readers of both the source books and the novels, and I can't keep track of what's happening in which source. Are the novels no longer canon, even from Ed? I can't answer that, but anything Ed writes should be canon and is in my world. (I know that there is no Ao in Ed's world, or anything that follows, but his novels deal with the character and the repercussions, so there's always been a way for me to reconcile them before). Ugh |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2016 : 16:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Since I don't know which one it is, I don't know how to run my game and keep it "attuned" to the world. I have avid readers of both the source books and the novels, and I can't keep track of what's happening in which source. Are the novels no longer canon, even from Ed? I can't answer that, but anything Ed writes should be canon and is in my world. (I know that there is no Ao in Ed's world, or anything that follows, but his novels deal with the character and the repercussions, so there's always been a way for me to reconcile them before). Ugh
Anything Ed writes *is* canon, unless explicitly overwritten by WotC. So are the rest of the novels. The Herald ended in 1487, while the SCAG is in 1491. We can only assume that Dove has been resurrected somewhen inbetween, either by some of her sisters or by Mystra herself. The problem is that they didn't care to explain the ''how'' of it, just like for all the other returns (although some have been explained, either by novels, or by Ed). They just said ''here's the current picture'' (and about spoilers, yes they gave a lot of plotlines away. They had already released spoilers for Erin's story in the MM. They have also released spoilers for the current Drizzt books by saying that the matriarchy in Menzo isn't going to change).
They tried to make a book that was supposed to serve as a regional guide, as an update of the whole Realms, and as a splatbook. All of that in 160 pages. That's the problem: they wanted to cram too much of everything in a book that was too small. As a result, there simply wasn't enough room for a lot of background content, leading to a lot of confusion about why things are how they currently are.
Honestly, WotC don't seem to be interested in investing in the Realms as a setting and taking care of it. They just seem to be content with their pseudo-retcon, and with only using Faerun to place their new generic storylines (I'm no longer even sure about that, with their shift to Ravenloft). And it is showing. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Mar 2016 16:17:00 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 01:20:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
A point to CorellonsDevout that I think is worth noting: the sourcebooks are rather specific when it comes to Patron Deities. A person must choose his or her patron in life and be true to that patron's overall portfolio. Jim Lowder wrote an excellent example with Gwydion in Prince of Lies, wherein a mortal is deceived by another god (who again, manifests as another deity) but because he never actually prayed to any of the gods truly in life, he was deemed one of The False. Since this is pre-Kelemvor, Cyric did what he always did, but to the larger point, while Ed has said it is expected all mortals be polytheistic, they still have a "declared" patron. It can be tossing a couple of coppers in an altar, or even building an altar in one's home, or creating a holy circle to Chauntea or Silvanus or Eldath (even if not a druid or cleric) but a mortal still "picks" which version of heaven he or she wants.
Good point. I see what you mean now, and I agree with you on it. I tend to think of "patron deity" as a god a person pays particular homage to, or includes themselves in that faith, such as the lay worshipers of Eilistraee. While not all of them are priestesses (or priests), they all identify as Eilistraeens. Since not all Faerunians identify with a specific faith, but they will still offer prays to various deities, I consider those to be without a "patron" deity. This does not mean they are considered false, and when they die, they go to the deity that is best aligned with their morals and ethics. Only those who never engage in any form of worship (not even a prayer) or repudiate the gods, are considered false. I don't want to start a whole other discussion about the fate of Zak'nafein, as that isn't the point of this thread,, but I will use him as an example. He was no Lolthite, and when his spirit came to Drizzt, he said he was in a "good place". We do not know where that "good place" is (I would like to know), as we do not know if Zak was a secret Eilistraeen or something, but it certainly isn't the Abyss. So Zak's spirit went to a god that is most aligned with him, and that certainly isn't Lolth.
But you are correct, most Faerians will venerate a specific deity, even if not to the point where it would be considered a "patron" deity, like it would with a cleric or priest. Perhaps someone whispers a prayer to Tymora more than any other god, even if they don't consider themselves a "follower" of Tymora. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 03:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Good point. I see what you mean now, and I agree with you on it. I tend to think of "patron deity" as a god a person pays particular homage to, or includes themselves in that faith, such as the lay worshipers of Eilistraee. While not all of them are priestesses (or priests), they all identify as Eilistraeens. Since not all Faerunians identify with a specific faith, but they will still offer prays to various deities, I consider those to be without a "patron" deity. This does not mean they are considered false, and when they die, they go to the deity that is best aligned with their morals and ethics. Only those who never engage in any form of worship (not even a prayer) or repudiate the gods, are considered false. I don't want to start a whole other discussion about the fate of Zak'nafein, as that isn't the point of this thread,, but I will use him as an example. He was no Lolthite, and when his spirit came to Drizzt, he said he was in a "good place". We do not know where that "good place" is (I would like to know), as we do not know if Zak was a secret Eilistraeen or something, but it certainly isn't the Abyss. So Zak's spirit went to a god that is most aligned with him, and that certainly isn't Lolth.
But you are correct, most Faerians will venerate a specific deity, even if not to the point where it would be considered a "patron" deity, like it would with a cleric or priest. Perhaps someone whispers a prayer to Tymora more than any other god, even if they don't consider themselves a "follower" of Tymora.
I think Zak'nafein is a great example, actually. From what I understand of the rules, the powers can hear things that happen within X minutes of their names being spoken (both past and future) depending on the deity's power. I'm not familiar with the drow pantheon to the point of others, but while I doubt Zak'nafein is with Eilistraee, he's definitely not with Lolth. Given Drizzt's status of presumed chosen of Mielikki, it is not beyond the realm of fictional possibility that she claimed his soul. At some point in his life, Zak'nafein would have had to utter some prayer in some form to some aspect of Mielikki. Or maybe Helm picked up his soul (and in all of these cases, I mean an aspect of that deity) because he was an honorable warrior who followed his code. While he had the heart of a paladin, one might argue, his acts would keep him out of Torm and Tyr's jurisdiction. But he seemed a skilled warrior, so perhaps his place is in The Endless War with Tempus, where he kills priestesses of Lolth endlessly.
The key here, I think, is that Oghma was able to shield a building from Cyric, and thus, too, could another god shield a portion or all of Zak from Lolth's view, temporarily or permanently. The wrinkle in my theory is the ability of Malice to bring Zak's soul back unwillingly. Given that this was early in Bob's writing career, I'll forgive him that, but while it makes a good plot line, it's somewhat against the concept of unwilling undeath.
To close the loop on patron deities, the person must, in his or her heart, be a "true believer" in that deity for it to be his or her patron. A farmer who spends his days toiling his fields may never visit a church of Chauntea (one might argue that a farmer's field is a church to her) but he thanks her for a good harvest. When he dies, he's neither denied her, denounced her, and since most people aren't members of a clergy, he's never received divine spells from her. But he clearly worshipped her, as likely did his family if they were also farmers. But if one of his sons or daughters went off and joined an army, that child might switch to Tempus. As long as that person utters something like "Lord of Battles, favor me in this fight" once he or she has venerated Tempus through worship. On the flip side of the argument, coming down with a plague and going to Ilmater's church and paying for a healing spell is not veneration on the part of the plagued. But a woman who shelters homeless people and eases their suffering could very well venerate Ilmater directly or indirectly, but she is furthering his cause.
Ultimately the troublesome gods are the evil gods. If you are an assassin, who uses poison, and lies all the time, and equally venerate Bhaal, Mask, and Talona at given times, it's really up to you (IMHO) as to which you call out when your soul is on The Fugue Plain. The gods are strengthened by worship, so in theory they'd all be happy to take the soul, as long as the soul venerated the deity properly at least once in life. And as a final example, one could very well be a corrupt high priest of a particular deity and be denied entry into that deities afterlife and branded as false. Final word from me: it's not whom you worship or how loudly you worship, it's that you believe in the deity and pay homage to that deity in some fashion during your life. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 03:42:57
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Malice did bring back Zak's soul, but then later on, his spirit told Drizzt he was in a "good place", so when he was released from his "zombie" state, his soul likely returned to wherever it had been. Being in a constricted society like the drow, it was unlikely he would have heard of any "surface" deities, which is why I used Eilistraee as an example, but what matters is what was in his heart. I too have my theories about Mielikki, since, as you said, he son is a presumed chosen.
I seem to remember reading in a sourcebook (I am blanking on which one), that sincere Faerunians are polytheistic, those that don't worship a specific deity would be taken in by the deity that is best aligned with their moral beliefs. This actually makes me wonder about the fate of many drow. Ones like Zak who clearly aren't Lolthites, but don't have access to the teachings of other faiths (which is why the work of E and V are so important). From my understanding, most demihumans go to the realm of their racial pantheon, such as the elves to Arvandor, unless an elf venerated, say Tymora more than the Seldarine. Many drow are Lolthites (fear likely being one cause), but Zak and others aren't "aligned" with her, so to speak. It makes me wonder how many drow souls she actually gets to claim, but we could go around and around about that.
But I understand and agree with what you are saying. Most Faerunians do have a deity they worship (whether loudly or quietLy in their hearts). A soldier may be a soldier because that is his duty, but maybe he grows a little flower garden and whispers prayers to Chauntea. His passion is gardening, not soldier. Therefore, it would be Chauntea who claimed him, not Helm or Tyr.
Some do have more than one patron deity. As you said, if you worship Bhaal or Mask equally, it is up to you who you call out to. Or, in some cases, whichever deity comes to claim you first. If Mask gets you before Bhaal, well, sucks for Bhaal, but is actually probably better for you. Mask may be evil, but he's better than Bhaal. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 04:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
<snip>
Some do have more than one patron deity. As you said, if you worship Bhaal or Mask equally, it is up to you who you call out to. Or, in some cases, whichever deity comes to claim you first. If Mask gets you before Bhaal, well, sucks for Bhaal, but is actually probably better for you. Mask may be evil, but he's better than Bhaal.
Agreed. And they have to make their claim to the God of the Dead as arbiter over who claims the soul. Remember the soul Kelemvor made a seraphim and then he wound up going to Mask after rescuing Mystra from Helm? Torm also tried to "claim" Gwydion but failed because he had never been true to Torm in his (first) life. So it would be unwise for a god to grab a soul falsely (remember how badly Cyric wanted Adon?) because they could face censure from the pantheon. That's why (again, IMO) it's up to the deity to convince the mortal that he or she is the best one to worship because of the best afterlife. Kinda makes them like car salesmen in that regard. :)
I wonder if Bob is ever going to tell us what happened to Zak's soul. I may bug him about it the next time I see him - which isn't often, to be clear. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1584 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 04:20:51
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| Why do people think that evil deities torture their followers for reasons? Someone who dies as a Bhaalyn probably anticipates learning assassination from Big Billy B himself, a Banite who dies would take the chance to prove his worthiness to Tyrant McTerror in a far wider plane of influence than the Prime and so on. Only gigantic screwups are in trouble, but as long as writers don't give evil gods moustaches to twirl then faithful divine servants could view deatth as a chance to gain more prestige for dread Bane/Set/Loviatar/ etc. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 04:38:45
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Why do people think that evil deities torture their followers for reasons? Someone who dies as a Bhaalyn probably anticipates learning assassination from Big Billy B himself, a Banite who dies would take the chance to prove his worthiness to Tyrant McTerror in a far wider plane of influence than the Prime and so on. Only gigantic screwups are in trouble, but as long as writers don't give evil gods moustaches to twirl then faithful divine servants could view deatth as a chance to gain more prestige for dread Bane/Set/Loviatar/ etc.
Well, that is the nature of evil. The difference is in perception. Followers of a good god like Ilmater may flagellate themselves in an attempt to ease the pain of others, and follows of Loviatar may whip themselves to show their goddess that they reverse the pain she causes. The point about torture is that it based on perception. Mask's City of Shadows is well depicted as thieves in an endless game of stealing/sneaking up on one another. That's probably not the idea of heaven to an Eldathan, but the heavens reward those with what they sought in life. They only one who violated that tenet, I believe, was Cyric. Oghma's spirits get to spend eternity in a library, Mystra's got to research and practice magic, and Banites probably get to find new ways to spread hatred amongst themselves for all eternity. It's not torture if it's what the soul wishes. Bhaal would expect his worshippers to murder in cold blood. That's why he's the god of assassins. That's not torture, it's the tenets of his faith. Presumably, in an afterlife, his followers would get to spend eternity hunting down one another assassinating each other in an endless "game." I believe the only ways for souls to be truly destroyed are in Kelemvor's Wall, Kezef, and the river running around Kelemvor's castle. Beyond that, they can be "killed" for all eternity without dying. But to your point of torture, the evil deities aren't torturing people if those people willingly follow their doctrine. If all of the evil went away in the world, then all of the evil deities would fade away from lack of worship. (And Ao would be one pissed off overlord for a lack of the evil gods keeping up their end of The Balance) Tyr can torture one of his followers by stripping him or her of paladinhood. Falling from grace is torture, regardless of alignment. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 10:40:42
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In my realms all souls go to Outer Planes. First they travel throught astral plane to Fugue plane where they are judged. Then they go to specific diety they venerated, are damned by Kelemvor into wall if they were false or go to plane they are most aligned with. All souls then become petitioners (unless some external influence comes to play) and basicaly continue in their normal life oblivious that they died. During time they loose their memories and starts becomeing one with the plane. Once this is complete there is no trace of that persona anymore. A lot of them are hindered by somelink to their past that is slowing this process - like waiting for husband, tale about him still told in taverns, ...This last example is on verge of reversing this process as it is almost venrating this individual. If there is enough of it he might become a planar instead.
Dieties have basicaly claimed small part of some plane as their domain and they are caring for their petitioners there. This is both boon and weakness for them as they have to invest a lot of power into it's creation but it also makes them safer as you have to destroy both the domain and the god to get rid of him (the same goes with avatars). It also enables them to tap into power of those petitioners.
All evil cannot be removed from the world as it is a part of it. Also you do not remove Illness as a domain from the world by curing all illness from it. It will just manifest itself again. Some sages will also argue that if you theoreticaly successfuly removed all evil... will good remain as it will loose it's meaning then.
What did poor Cyric to violated tenet of afterlife? Was he true, lawful, nurturing life and magic? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 12:46:07
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So in your Realms Wrigley the afterlife sounds like of...temporary, because the souls eventually lose their essence? I know in canan, the souls retain their memories, though certain things become vague over time, and some things, like grudges, cease to matter. The only thing I don't like and would do away with would be the Wall. I am not fond of it.
To the larger point here, none of us are advocating getting rid of the evils gods. Heck, I even like some of the "evil" gods. And as Azuth pointed out, they don't all torture their followers.
Oh and Azuth, I bugged Bob about Zak once. He wasn't entirely clear, but he hinted at the Green Fields, which is weird because that is the afterlife of the halflings lol, but he may have meant something else and gotten them mixed up. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Mar 2016 13:12:36 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 13:57:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
All evil cannot be removed from the world as it is a part of it. Also you do not remove Illness as a domain from the world by curing all illness from it. It will just manifest itself again. Some sages will also argue that if you theoreticaly successfuly removed all evil... will good remain as it will loose it's meaning then.
That's if you define good as the contrary of evil, and vice versa, but if you do they both become meaningless. They each carry their own meaning, associated with certain kind actions, and that is independent on the actions associated with their contrary. I also don't think that there are gods *of* evil, or of good, as no portfolio include those things, that I know.
Destroying all ''evil'' in the world involves destroying the ''evil aligned'' gods--if you don't, you haven't eradicated evil yet. It also involves changing the human nature, as even non evil individuals can harm other people willingly in certain situations (like in a fit of rage). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Mar 2016 14:01:24 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 16:18:59
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Almost each god with alignment has a domain of that alignment (good, evil, chaotic, lawful).
The wall for me is only a form of saying - you are not going anywhere else as a punishment - active will of god (s) to separate corrupt souls from the believers. Not the will of the planes.
And yes in my realms there is no eternity for soul and if you wait too long your ressurected friend might not even recognize you anymore. On the other hand you can possibly visit a planar domain in search for someone already dead and speak to him about his life (which he might not remember in full). As this process take a lot of time (like decades to centuries) you have a chance for good info even long after his death (that is actualy how Speak with dead spell works)
Actualy since this was opened up I will share my whole cycle of souls.
Consciousnes itself begins in the Outer planes. From there all souls (including animals) are created by the event of concieving an offspring and this energy forms into the soul. Once being dies the souls stays for few days still bound to the body (that enables raise dead) unless there was lot of emotion which could lead the soul to bond as a ghost to some material anchor with the will to finish something. Otherwise it departs through astral conduit to Fugue plane than to its final destination where it will dissolve back to planar mass. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 16:30:12
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| Based on inspiration from one of the FR books where wizard tormented his opponent by conjuring his spirit - you could also summon petitioners by spell and they are forced to obey your commands. I think this is a very overlooked source of information used by magic users in realms as you can do the same with other planar beings as long as you can specify your target. Only strong planars have the ability to resist this by sending one of their minions instead. Or like Kossuth going himself to teach your nation a lesson. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 16:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Almost each god with alignment has a domain of that alignment (good, evil, chaotic, lawful).
Domains are just a D&D game mechanic, though. They are a separate thing from portfolios. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 17:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Almost each god with alignment has a domain of that alignment (good, evil, chaotic, lawful).
The wall for me is only a form of saying - you are not going anywhere else as a punishment - active will of god (s) to separate corrupt souls from the believers. Not the will of the planes.
And yes in my realms there is no eternity for soul and if you wait too long your ressurected friend might not even recognize you anymore. On the other hand you can possibly visit a planar domain in search for someone already dead and speak to him about his life (which he might not remember in full). As this process take a lot of time (like decades to centuries) you have a chance for good info even long after his death (that is actualy how Speak with dead spell works)
Actualy since this was opened up I will share my whole cycle of souls.
Consciousnes itself begins in the Outer planes. From there all souls (including animals) are created by the event of concieving an offspring and this energy forms into the soul. Once being dies the souls stays for few days still bound to the body (that enables raise dead) unless there was lot of emotion which could lead the soul to bond as a ghost to some material anchor with the will to finish something. Otherwise it departs through astral conduit to Fugue plane than to its final destination where it will dissolve back to planar mass.
I prefer the idea of eternity and the soul retaining a sense of individuality, though again, some memories may be vague. Of course, if your fate is eternally punishment, then maybe it would be better to merge with the plane instead. But that leads us back to good and evil, as not all evil deitis torture their followers. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 21:47:43
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Why would worshipers of evil dieties have to suffer? Even in hell you jist beggin a new path to power...as a larvae. But you are not condemned to eternal suffering just your form changes. It is not christian afterlife. The same goes for eternal afterlife - wouldn't it get crowded soon if everybody who dies stayed eternaly?
Domains are just the game mechanics? All of this is a game and alignment is the basic sturcture of Outer planes, gods are actualy the small part of it. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 22:08:14
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| That's why I said not every evil deity punishes their followers. Mask and Vhaeraun do not, and they are "evil". As for eternal afterlife--no, I do not think it would get crowded. The realms of the gods are vast, and *made* to hold the souls of their followers. I'm sure there is some method in which they contain such a large number without them 'disappearing'. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Mar 2016 22:10:47 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 22:09:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
The same goes for eternal afterlife - wouldn't it get crowded soon if everybody who dies stayed eternaly?
There are planes with infinite extension (most divine planes are infinite, actually, that I know). That could explain souls retaining their individuality in the afterlife without running out of space.
quote:
Domains are just the game mechanics? All of this is a game and alignment is the basic sturcture of Outer planes, gods are actualy the small part of it.
The Realms and the planes exist as a ''world'', no matter what rules are used to run games set in them. Domains are specific to D&D and represent something special that clerics of X deity can do. Heck, in 5e D&D, domains like good or chaos don't even exist at this time. If I ran GURPS, FATE or other systems in the Realms, they wouldn't exist either. There is a distinction between the setting and the game rules. My point was that there are evil, good and neutral deities, but that--as far as I know--there's no deity of good, evil, or what you have: the gods are ''part'' of that (or fall under those categories), rather than being the seeds of such concepts. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Mar 2016 22:17:47 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 22:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
The same goes for eternal afterlife - wouldn't it get crowded soon if everybody who dies stayed eternaly?
There are planes with infinite extension (most divine planes are infinite, actually, that I know). That could explain souls retaining their individuality in the afterlife without running out of space.
Exactly. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 22:52:53
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| Ok we have a different oppinion on eternal souls lets keep it that way. What diety do you think punishes his or her followers? As I see it they try to mimic their god so banites will try to take lead of each other and rule, loviatharians will try to make others suffer, cyricist will lie a betray everybody. I have no idea which evil god would benefit from punishing his petitioners in the afterlife. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 23:07:45
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Yes the planes are officialy infinite but it still feels more like an excuse for an excuse to me :-) where are all souls from in your realms?
Thank you for clearing the notion about alignment. I agree there is no god of good or evil, some aspire to be (like holy Triad and Asmodeus) but they are not. Actualy that detail I realy like about FR that there is no clear line between them and nobody is clear good and evil. Each god has its own personality different from pure alignment. Even Silvanus that is imho the most neutral still favors plants over creatures. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 23:30:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Yes the planes are officialy infinite but it still feels more like an excuse for an excuse to me :-) where are all souls from in your realms?
It's an explanation like another. Fantasy is full of stuff like that (and I don't personally mind that, as long as 1)the world is consistent with its own rules 2)fantasy doesn't become an excuse for really stupid or OOC behaviour, ''idiot ball'' scenarios, or stuff like that. But that's another matter).
In my Realms, the afterlife looks pretty much like it does in canon, save for a few elements. I don't include the Wall of the Faithless. Simple dedication to an ideal, or a concept, or an art or profession counts as faith in my Realms. Those rare individuals who for some reason don't worship any deity are sent to the power that is the closest to what they believed in during their life. Those who would be judged as false are instead sent by Kelemvor where they actually belong. In short, faith is more about what someone actually feels and believes in, in my Realms, rather than performing rites and prayers. Deities are empowered by those who perform deeds that advance their cause, no matter who they primarily worship.
quote:
Actualy that detail I realy like about FR that there is no clear line between them and nobody is clear good and evil. Each god has its own personality different from pure alignment. Even Silvanus that is imho the most neutral still favors plants over creatures.
Absolute/''True'' good or evil would be boring, everyone has flaws and qualities, even deities. That makes them interesting IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2016 : 23:34:19
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Maybe punishment was the wrong word, and you do make a good point that a god wouldn't really benefit from punishing their petitioners, at least not for eternity. There was a FR novel I read in which a soul was being tortured, but I do not know whether that was eternal torture, or just what was currently going on (I won't name the book because of spoilers). I think it was a matter of circumstances, and the nature of the deity. Even the evil ones differ in personality. However, I have read of instances where an evil deity might punish their follower if that follower was seen as a failure in life. Chosen of Cyric or Bane have reason to be afraid. They want their god to reward their souls, not punish them. It may not be eternal punishment, but the followers still fear for their fate if they fail in the task a god like Cyric or Bane assigns them.
Which is why I say it depends on the nature of the deity. Not all "evil" deities would relish in the idea of torture, and just because you follow one doesn't mean your afterlife is going to suck. Mask's realm isn't that bad, for example. But some, such as Lolth, Bane, and Cyric might be more liable to make you suffer if you displease them. That's one of the reasons Lolthite priestesses try so hard to get Lolth's attention (that and they're greedy and power hungry), but they fear the Spider Queen's displeasure, both in life and in the afterlife. Not every follower of an evil god such as Lolth or Bane is going to be tortured, but some will be if they incur their god's ire. This is one of the reasons for their fanaticism.
And I agree. Having the deities be imperfect makes them interesting. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Mar 2016 23:59:10 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2016 : 09:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I agree, Wooly. Cyric had a well-developed backstory in Shadowdale and Tantras, but that was all blown away in Waterdeep. He started to come back to someone with motive and shrewdness in Prince of Lies and was saved from the brink of saving us readers from misery in Crucible. Cyric had the potential to be a character with a lot of depth, but instead he was written to be the most evil god imaginable before he even ascended to godhood.
Could you describe this image of Cyric you liked? Idealy with the back story as I haven't read those books and do not have much interest in doing so. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2016 : 22:45:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Could you describe this image of Cyric you liked? Idealy with the back story as I haven't read those books and do not have much interest in doing so.
Well, they are good books, and to do it justice would take pages. However, in short:
Cyric is in no way an "evil" character in the beginning of Shadowdale. He is trying (very hard) to be a good character. He doesn't want to be a thief, although that is his past, and instead he tries to become more of a fighter/mercenary. He works for the betterment of his party members, and has deep, meaningful conversations with Kelemvor and Midnight. He fights against Bane not out of any thing other than a sense of trying to do the right thing, although he has nothing to gain personally from it. He struggles with what he's good at (being a thief) and what he wants to be (anything but a thief).
In Tantas, his views of the world are changed and he becomes much more cynical. Yet he still rescues his comrades and although it was preordained by the TSR people where he had to end up at the end of the original trilogy, he's still feeling guilt and remorse about some of his actions and choices. He becomes much more of an arbiter, almost an antipaladin in judge, jury, and sentencer in his views. The world becomes black and white for him, but he becomes focused on himself, he's neither a narcissist nor is he so self-absorbed that he fails to notice the world around him and how his actions affect things. He feels betrayed by his former companions, and they feel betrayed by him. But he doesn't become the vengeful, hateful, wicked persona now associated with him until Waterdeep. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2016 : 23:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Yes the planes are officially infinite but it still feels more like an excuse for an excuse to me :-) where are all souls from in your realms?
quote:
Actually that detail I really like about FR that there is no clear line between them and nobody is clear good and evil. Each god has its own personality different from pure alignment. Even Silvanus that is imho the most neutral still favors plants over creatures.
Absolute/''True'' good or evil would be boring, everyone has flaws and qualities, even deities. That makes them interesting IMO.
In the Realms, the point of "happiness" for Ao is true neutrality. If there's a force for luck, then there must be an equal force of ill luck. If there's a force for life, then there must be an equal force for death. Ao's Balance is meant to give mortals the free will option. Mystra represents all things magic, and Gond represents all things not-magic. Alignment and spheres are used to explain countering forces, but only mortals have a sense of good and evil. Talos exists to destroy things; Lathander exists to make new things. They are necessarily in opposition. Oghma is there to promote the preservation of all knowledge, and Leira is one who hides things, so they are in opposition. This was so well done in Prince of Lies as Oghma repeatedly explains to Mystra that he can't take any action against Cyric directly because Cyric has done nothing to threaten knowledge.
Mystra, Cyric, and Kelemvor are new to godhood, and haven't learned "the rules." Cyric shouldn't care what Tempus is doing at all, or Gond, or Mystra for that matter, in his 3E world. Mystra, similarly, shouldn't care what Cyric or Kelemvor are doing, as they have nothing to do with magic as long as they're not inhibiting it. Cyric should dislike Ilmater, as he is against pain and suffering, as well as Helm, Tyr, and Torm, as they're for justice and against murder. When they gave him strife, hatred, tyranny, and death, instead of parsing it out to three deities, it made him in opposition to so much of the pantheon that it was ridiculous. Kelemvor helped return some of the balance to Cyric, and Bane's return did more. However, with Bhaal back, Cyric isn't really the god of assassins. There can only be one god of a domain at a time, and murder was Cyric's. I don't know if Leira is considered back or not (and I'm too lazy to look it up in SCAG right now) but if she is back, then he doesn't even have intrigue. In other words, I'm no longer sure over what dominion Cyric holds sway in The Balance.
The key point is that the gods don't perceive good or evil: they perceive that in which they are set over dominion and any forces acting for or against it. Since we consider "good" as doing the right thing, each god fervently believes whatever he or she is doing is in furtherance of the "right" thing through his or her eyes. Silvanus, as was mentioned earlier, is for the furtherance of nature. Anything that enhances nature is "good" to him, be that armed bandits that burn a village and allow it to return to the forest, or an assassin who murders a farmer and allows the fields to return to wild. Silvanus would see anyone who engaged in chopping down trees as "evil" regardless of the need of the wood. It's very difficult for humans to relate to this worldview, because we, for example, would cut down a blighted tree to prevent the spread of some kind of tree rot. Silvanus would see that as no different than cutting down another tree, as long as the blight was natural and not magical in origin. But it is not Silvanus' place to go around punishing people for taming the lands. He simply instructs his followers to fight against civilization and for the reclamation of lands returning them to a natural state.
In this, he would have some kind of sometimes-adversarial relationship with Chauntea, as her blending of farming and hearths would precipitate changing the natural way of things, and she wouldn't be happy if a famine were created by a lack of attention by someone to crops. But both are seen as either neutral or good deities to most mortals. When Talos causes a forest fire with lightning, Silvanus would see that as natural (as Talos is the god of storms) but only if Talos also causes rain to put out fires naturally. If Talos went around starting fires and not also putting them out or overzealously flooding, Silvanus would take exception to that. So whether or not Talos is seen as evil by Silvanus depends on his actions.
It's a complex, cyclic, and oppositional relationship in the Realms. Mortals aren't players in the game, they are in control of the game as they "reject" Silvanus the more they civilize lands, and they "embrace" Chauntea the more the farm.
Tangential point: the outer planes must be infinite, by necessity. But we also don't know how much "space" a soul encompasses. However, over the course of millions of years, assuming souls all go to heavens somewhere, there must be space for them. If souls are microscopic in size, there's no reason that trillions and trillions of souls couldn't fit into a very small area (look up how many blood cells an adult human has) so while they planes may be infinite, we mustn't assume there's a 1:1 ratio between mortal bodies and their souls in the outer planes. We may perceive it that when we travel to them, but that doesn't make it factually so. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2016 : 23:31:56
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Interesting viewpoint about balance and opposition. I am a fan of Planescape so I am looking more for rule of three.
As for the planes - I see them not as infinite but the perception is certainly different so someone could say they are infinite.
About Cyric - thank you for sharing - it only confirm my theory that this overwhelming power given to him was on purpose to make him into what he is now a evil god as ones he has replaced. That makes Ao a calculating manipulator that is not afraid to destroy somebody for his goal - a fitting style for overgod. |
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Religion and dieties of FR
