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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2016 : 20:59:15
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| I hope that this will be an enjoyable experience for you, Mrs. Cunningham. One of the beautiful aspects of DMing is that we get to craft a story with other people, and that, while we don't have control over it, their decisions can lead it towards (hopefully pleasantly) surprising directions. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 May 2016 20:59:44 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 21:41:15
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| Players will always surprise you. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 21:52:59
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I really need to find your earlier works in a store somewhere. Some I never got to read, and the rest I've forgotten. I wish they'd just contract you to write more novels.
Without re-reading Blackstaff, weren't the owners of dormant Moonblades get something in exchange for sacrificing those blades in the ritual? |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 05:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I really need to find your earlier works in a store somewhere. Some I never got to read, and the rest I've forgotten. I wish they'd just contract you to write more novels.
Without re-reading Blackstaff, weren't the owners of dormant Moonblades get something in exchange for sacrificing those blades in the ritual?
Yes, the dormant blades were transformed into Hopeblades and their wielders became the elite guardians of Rhymanthiin.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 13:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I really need to find your earlier works in a store somewhere. Some I never got to read, and the rest I've forgotten. I wish they'd just contract you to write more novels.
Without re-reading Blackstaff, weren't the owners of dormant Moonblades get something in exchange for sacrificing those blades in the ritual?
Yes, the dormant blades were transformed into Hopeblades and their wielders became the elite guardians of Rhymanthiin.
-- George Krashos
Wait--this ritual included ALL the dormant moonblades? Not just the one?
If so, that's it. I'm done here. There's absolutely nowhere for me to go with the moonblades or the story of those who wielded them. |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 13:30:18
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| I believe it was a limited number (seven or eight seems to lodge itself in the dusty recesses of my mind), and was never said if it was all the dormant moonblades that I can recall. when I read it I certainly didnt get the impression that it was all the remaining dormant blades. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 16:08:55
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| Yes, there are many potential stories and adventure hooks. It's important to be able to pivot and rethink. But at this point, I don't think this is my story to tell. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 16:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The joys and perils of writing in a shared world.
I don't think any obstacle is insurmountable and I'm not sure that any rules have been published regarding the hope blades.
It might be interesting to delve into how Khelben was able to "corrupt" the original purpose of the moonblades and what that could mean for those wishing to reactivate their own moonblades (or for those wishing to steal and reactivate a moonblade).
Ashemmi and Sememmon were involved and although they might have been trusted by Khelben he then died so as evil beings they might consider their debt to him ended (or since they were wanderers at the time on the run from the Zhentarim they are prone to becoming victims to crime since they cannot hole themselves up in secure hideaways all the time).
I personally think it presents another opportunity than a roadblock. Sounds like Khelben severed the link between the moonblades and Evermeet (and thus the other moonblades). Then linked them to Rhymanthiin (or whatever it is called). So what happened to the purpose of choosing a new ruler? Was it suppressed? Did Khelben mistakenly think it had ended (no one is infallible nor can even Khelben get everything right). Could the Hopeblades suddenly start compelling their wielders to start interfering in how it is run (something their noble elven wielders will no doubt want to do anyway).
What would then happen if the Hope Blades were reconnected to the Evermeet? Could it restart the selection process for a ruler once more? Could we see a new elven homeland?
Plenty of adventure hooks there for a seemingly benevolent elven noble that secretly harbours a desire to become ruler of all elves.
There is no issue here, and no corruption of the moonblades. The only moonblades affected were ones that were dormant. Their function had been fulfilled -- so they had no purpose that could be corrupted. Further, as dormant blades, any connection they had to Evermeet was already gone.
Keep in mind, Khelben was very, very dedicated to elven causes -- corrupting elven magic is not something he would do.
And Ashemmi and Sememmon were no longer evil. Ashemmi had originally been good, anyway, and she and Sememmon were both more neutral after going it on their own. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 May 2016 16:10:25 |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 19:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I really need to find your earlier works in a store somewhere. Some I never got to read, and the rest I've forgotten. I wish they'd just contract you to write more novels.
Without re-reading Blackstaff, weren't the owners of dormant Moonblades get something in exchange for sacrificing those blades in the ritual?
Yes, the dormant blades were transformed into Hopeblades and their wielders became the elite guardians of Rhymanthiin.
-- George Krashos
Ah yes. Thank you. I'd love to see lore about Rhymanthin, even if it's just the blades. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 20:53:28
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Personally I prefer the possibilities that are presented by unreliability.
As per Ed's original philosophy I see all information presented to the reader as inherently unreliable and either the opinion of the narrator or of a character in the story or other source.
Khelben while an undisputed master of the Art is unlikely to know all its secrets. He seemed to be able to know much about elven magic but I doubt he knew all it's secrets just as I doubt he knew all the secrets of the universe.
He was able to alter the effects of the kiira to hold the souls of three people (living or dead) together thanks to his understanding of the magic involved but his understanding was flawed because things happened that he did not expect.
One would imagine the same is true of the moonblades. He studied them, he remembered the teachings of his mentors, he poured over documents and diaries. All the information he gathered to understand the moonblades was at best second hand and thus he could not possibly understand it completely.
Given that no one alive in the realms in 1370s DR was around during the creation of the moonblades how can anyone state with certainty what the moonblades do (and I really hope Elaine's work helps dispel some of the absolute certainty surrounding these artifacts). Likely Khelben tweaked a bit of the magic here, altered a bit there and hey presto the blades appeared to do as desired. He was working under pressure though, relying on others to actually do the magical legwork involving the blades (while he actually created a mythal), and so those proud elven elitists could have done anything to those blades while the others were busy trying not to be consumed by the magic involved.
As for Ashemmi and Sememmon. Alignment in D&D is an imperfect representation of people. Undoubtedly Ashemmi and Sememmon are selfish people. Ashemmi is selfish in her love for Sememmon, and Sememmon is selfish in his love for the Art and himself.
They might have become persuaded that ruthlessness does not give them everything they want, but equally they might in a few years realise that they have become weak and soft, a pale reflection of their past glories. Thus they sell secrets, betray friends, and do other selfish deeds (deeds they may regret later, or maybe not).
All I'm saying is that uncertainty, conflicting accounts, and general misinformation provides for many glorious possibilities.
Certainty however does precisely the opposite of these things. It stifles creativity and ensures only one possibility as in "the right course of events" as far as the original author envisaged.
Give me an unreliable narrator anyday. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 21:51:05
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While the unreliable narrator has its uses, you've got to have solid facts, as well, or else nothing is certain and thus nothing can be trusted.
And solid facts and unreliable narrators are not mutually exclusive.
I personally prefer to play in the grey areas of canon...
For example, if I was going to do anything with the dormant moonblade idea, I'd go for one that had been dormant for years, but suddenly and with no apparent cause had reawakened. Or maybe this happened to as many as a handful of moonblades. And it would be even more fun if those reawakened moonblades had different powers, or existing ones had been changed... It could take an elven generation to find out that these reawakened blades had a new purpose, directly chosen by the Seldarine...
Same idea, and there's a lot of potential, there -- but established canon is not being violated. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nacopa
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2016 : 02:02:53
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I imagine the moonblades used for the hope blades were largely unclaimed, meaning their lines had died out. I doubt Khelben would have used moonblades that went dormant with the last of a line, since that would mean they still had a chance to reawaken.
Also, I wonder what an elf stuck between two worlds such as Elaith thinks of Khelben's actions. His perspective is rather singular, and the idea of a meddling mage being able to alter the use of these elven artifacts could raise some strong emotions with Elaith. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2016 : 04:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Wait--this ritual included ALL the dormant moonblades? Not just the one?
If so, that's it. I'm done here. There's absolutely nowhere for me to go with the moonblades or the story of those who wielded them.
Nine families (of which only one - Ilbaereth - is named), all owing a debt to House Maerdrym, agreed to use their dormant moonblades in the ritual that created Rhymanthiin.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2016 : 11:57:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Nacopa
I imagine the moonblades used for the hope blades were largely unclaimed, meaning their lines had died out. I doubt Khelben would have used moonblades that went dormant with the last of a line, since that would mean they still had a chance to reawaken.(...)
Actually, the representatives of the families donated the blades, so their lines weren't dead. On the other hand, the reawakening of a moonblade was an unique event in Elaith's clan. in theory once a moonblade is dormant, its powers are gone forever. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2016 : 13:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Nacopa
I imagine the moonblades used for the hope blades were largely unclaimed, meaning their lines had died out. I doubt Khelben would have used moonblades that went dormant with the last of a line, since that would mean they still had a chance to reawaken.(...)
Actually, the representatives of the families donated the blades, so their lines weren't dead. On the other hand, the reawakening of a moonblade was an unique event in Elaith's clan. in theory once a moonblade is dormant, its powers are gone forever.
The blades wouldn't be dormant if the lines hadn't died out... But blades could have been passed to cousins of other lines, or moved between families because of marriage, or other circumstances. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2016 : 17:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The blades wouldn't be dormant if the lines hadn't died out... But blades could have been passed to cousins of other lines, or moved between families because of marriage, or other circumstances.
Not true. They could have become dormant when the unworthy last representative of its clan tried to draw it, and afterwards this elf would raise a family. The line goes on, but with the blade dormant, is considered unworthy of claiming the throne. The purpose of the moonblades was never to end the clans.
EDIT: Remember, Wooly, that moonblades weren't always inherited in a more direct line. Arilyn's, for example, was from her mother, but Amnestria received it from a great-grandaunt (or something like that).  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 24 May 2016 00:07:53 |
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Nacopa
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2016 : 19:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Actually, the representatives of the families donated the blades, so their lines weren't dead. On the other hand, the reawakening of a moonblade was an unique event in Elaith's clan. in theory once a moonblade is dormant, its powers are gone forever.
That's curious. If Khelben only used dormant moonblades with living family lines, that would suggest the blades still had some magic to them. It also suggests that dormant moonblades with dead family lines are either nigh impossible to find or they simply lack the magical essence required for the Blackstaff's working. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2016 : 21:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Nacopa
That's curious. If Khelben only used dormant moonblades with living family lines, that would suggest the blades still had some magic to them.
Theoretically, no. Dormant swords, either with surviving lines or not, should have no more power. Maybe they could be an special material component of the powerfull spell, since the books state that dormant moonblades, although no longer enchanted, were special mastercraft swords, with a never dulling edge, and so on...
quote:
Originally posted by Nacopa
It also suggests that dormant moonblades with dead family lines are either nigh impossible to find or they simply lack the magical essence required for the Blackstaff's working.
Actually all of them would lack this magical essence. Elaith's blade reawakening is an exception, and the souls that power a moonblade are already absent - and gone to Arvandor - in a dormant sword. Once again, the blades could be components for the spell or, given their special craftsmanship, receptacles to an all-new power (being changed into hopeblades). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Nacopa
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 09:39:28
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While it lore does indicate the moonblades lose the powers known to be granted through the use of a worthy wielder, I don't know if I've see anything confirming that the moonblades are completely without a magical or divine property. Being of such exquisite craft at the height of elven high magic, and being as secretive as elves can be with their art, there may yet be more to the dormant blades than the surface might suggest. Perhaps the souls powered the blade's abilities and remained within by a warding powerful enough to block passage to Arvandor. But what if that passage was also granted? In the event that a dormant blade discovered a new worthy wielder, that inherent link to the Seldarine could facilitate the return of its magic and, perhaps, a few willing souls that might desire to aid their descendants.
As is the case with much in the Realms, the true nature of the moonblades has not been entirely revealed. And while I respect the lore we have, I know it hasn't acknowledged everything. That's what makes this thread so fascinating. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 11:39:45
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Of course I'm considering published lore, and in the book Silver Shadows it is written this bit of lore:
"But yes, each elf who accepts a moonblade understands that his or her passage to Arvandor will be delayed, perhaps for thousands of years, until the moonblade's purpose is fulfilled. When a sword fells dormant, the elves are released."
I know there is lore to be revealed, but this part about the souls being released to go to Arvandor is already canon. But I agree that still there is a lot to be learnt.
EDIT: I'm not saying the souls cannot, in very unusual circumstances, be allowed to go back and help their descendants. But the passage to Arvandor was not blocked, after all, and they would have to - once again - delay the delights of Arvandor to serve the People once more. That's why I think the hopeblades are probably another sort of sword, for if they don't become dormant like the moonblades, keeping the souls that powered the blades would be denying them their eternal rest. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 24 May 2016 11:44:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 11:57:11
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There's got to be some inherent magic in the moonblade that's not dependent on the souls in it -- I can't see being able to reawaken a blade if it is totally non-magical.
Obviously, its major powers would be gone, but something has to remain. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 18:24:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) -- I can't see being able to reawaken a blade if it is totally non-magical.
Well, if you think that magical blades were once non-enchanted swords (not ordinary in its materials, but anyway non-magical), I believe a dormant blade can be non-magical, but its craftmanship (maybe allied with divine will, in this specific case) makes it susceptible to reawakening. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 04:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
A CONNECTICUT GAMER IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT
First time I've read this - very amusing Elaine! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 15:58:50
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As far as my two cents, I have no problem with corrupted moonblades and even (forgive me Elaine) the re purposed dormant blades (even though I pretty much hated everything about that work), assuming the souls are no longer bound within them.
My biggest problem with what we've seen of moonblades is that if they were created in the distant past, rather than Myth Drannor, they should have passed through many more generations - even if the wielders all lived to a ripe old age. Perhaps there should be some qualification that makes it difficult to add powers to a blade so that fewer generations add powers. I once re-worked the Starym blade to be as ancient as it should be and it working generation by generation, it quickly became just about the most powerful artifact description I ever did (and I tend to go for over-powered magic in the first place).
As for moonblades I'd like to know more about (aside from Elaith's, of course), are, in order:
The Kings-Blade (the history of its bearers and how they proved themselves worthy of being the royal line would be fascinating). I'm also curious if the next king would have to draw the blade...
The Aunglor moonblade (lost in Cormanthyr with Jassin Aunglor during his battle with the great green wyrm Venom).
The Silverspear moonblade (mentioned in EOE) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 16:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
My biggest problem with what we've seen of moonblades is that if they were created in the distant past, rather than Myth Drannor, they should have passed through many more generations - even if the wielders all lived to a ripe old age.
Exactly why? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 19:11:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
My biggest problem with what we've seen of moonblades is that if they were created in the distant past, rather than Myth Drannor, they should have passed through many more generations - even if the wielders all lived to a ripe old age.
Exactly why?
Simple mathematics. According to Evermeet IoE, the moonblades were created in -9000DR, so that's about 10500 years ago.
Due to the average life span of elves (refer to the table in the complete book of elves) even if every wielder lived to venerable old age (300-350 years) the average blade would have had about 30 wielders. If every wielder lived to "maximum age" and passed into Aryvandar their would still have been about 17-18 wielders and powers.
However, moonblades are wielded by warriors who almost never make it to such venerable ages. I'd argue the average moonfighter would be lucky to make it to old age (250 years), which would mean about 40 wielders and powers.
It doesn't take much imagination to think of a scenario where a warlike lineage would die every 50 to 100 years or so. Then you're talking about moonblades with 100-200 powers.
Imagine how powerful such a blade would be, even if you used simple powers like those supplied in the Evermeet sourcebook like additional +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Similarly, there is nothing in any of the literature about moonblades constraining the nature or magnitude of powers of a blade. Imagine if a blade had say 20 powers on par with the Elfshadow power of Arlynn's blade. That would make it far more powerful than any sword ever described in D&D and at least on par with the most powerful relics and artifacts ever describes. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 19:36:19
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| The answer to this is that not every generation is worthy. Every blade spent many generations active but unclaimed, waiting for the next worthy elf in that clan to be born, raised properly, and finally to try claiming the blade if, after centuries of life, he or she - or his or her family think she is ready. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 26 May 2016 19:39:02 |
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vertus
Acolyte
Brazil
18 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 19:45:39
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Long and interesting thread.
All in all, even with the Hopeblades becoming a kind of closure for the dormant blades, I think that there is a lot of ground to cover about the creation and history of the moonblades. Great material for fiction and gamelore there.
In my campaigns I go with a theory that goes along the lines that the first Moonblades where created around the Arcane Age, when elven sages and High Mages reached the conclusion that the dominance of humans and other races would be an inevitable course, and envisioned what would become in the future, The Retreat.
With that in mind, they created a few moonblades, with the purpose of selecting and directing lineages fit for the throne, amongst the less xenophobic silver elves.
After the first batch, after some event, or as an aftertought, they created a plethora of other moonblades. They where not the original batch, but they would give other families a feel of what it was to feel worthy, and at the same time, they would serve as a smoke screen, misdirectig anyone who could think of foiling their plan of selecting kings through the blades just by stealing "the original moonblades".
With that, I have nine true moonblades, and an undefined number of moonblades.
The Hopeblades I envisioned as repurposed items. To me the moonblades, were created as masterwork items, with strong magics tied to them, and prepared to be used as vessels to the elven souls. Each soul would add salient abilities.
I always worked with the notion that the first soul to go into a moonblade would be of one of the silver elven family involved in the creation of the blade, that would "sacrifice" herself to imbue purpose in the blade.
When a particular blade would go dormant, its souls releaseed, it would be left without the original purpose, that came with it's first soul. It would still be a potent magical item, and one fit to be used as a vessel for great power still.
Anyway, I came up with these bits, based on the little lore I could gather from published books, fiction and stuff taken from the minds of you people here on Candlekeep.
Even with all the setbacks, and with Mrs. Cunningham taking a step back with the knowledge of the hopeblades, I'd really love to see her thoughts materialize into something we could adopt as the new moonblade canon.
Cya |
"Misty morning
Clouds in the sky
Without warning
A wizard walks by" |
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Moonblades
