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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 19:59:34
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I was reading from the old gray box and I noticed that there's really no mention of this concept of the "Chosen of Mystra". Nor is there any mention of silverfire or anything like that. And in the description of the Simbul, only a few of the Seven are listed as her sisters (Alustriel, Dove, Storm). This got me wondering -- how much of the current lore of the Chosen/Seven Sisters was created after the introduction of 2ed? Or did Ed already know this stuff but just never included it in the 1ed campaign setting? Which of the Chosen were PCs in his home campaign, and did they know they were Chosen at the time?
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 20:38:54
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Awesome, thanks. It's interesting to see that there was no Ao, as that is how I prefer the Realms.
Although, I fail to understand how the Chosen are all that insane. Reading the Seven Sisters, the Simbul is the only one that comes across as even remotely unhinged (with the exception of Laeral under the Crown of Horns). All the others are depicted as being extremely wise and quite sane. Same for Elminster (haven't read any recent books so I might be totally wrong here). Of course, there's Sammaster, but he's only one of at least 10 Chosen. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 20:42:42
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This leads me to another question. Many of the Chosen are quite proactive in their opposition to evil. Are there any evil archwizards who are of equal power and just as proactive in their opposition to good?
In the same way that one of the Seven might suddenly appear to destroy a slaver's ring, is there an equivalent bad guy who would just teleport into a gathering of paladins and lay waste to them? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 20:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Awesome, thanks. It's interesting to see that there was no Ao, as that is how I prefer the Realms.
Although, I fail to understand how the Chosen are all that insane. Reading the Seven Sisters, the Simbul is the only one that comes across as even remotely unhinged (with the exception of Laeral under the Crown of Horns). All the others are depicted as being extremely wise and quite sane. Same for Elminster (haven't read any recent books so I might be totally wrong here). Of course, there's Sammaster, but he's only one of at least 10 Chosen.
Yeah, I don't have Ao in my FR either, and I prefer to stick with Ed's original vision of the Chosen (divine casters fulfill the ''champion of the gods'' fantasy very well anyway).
As for the insanity, I don't think that it is meant as in full blown madness, but it makes sense for the Chosen who have lived very long to become eccentric individuals, even a little bit insane. Wisdom comes from experience, and can coexist with this kind of eccentricity. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 21:32:50
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| Kind of unrelated, but I'm toying with the idea of making all Chosen neutral instead of good, as the Mystra in my Realms is truly neutral (this is the pre-Midnight Mystra). Feels too unbalancing to have the most powerful entity in the Realms be on one side of the spectrum. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 21:39:18
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| If I were you, I'd make up new Chosen for your goal, rather than change the existing ones. Even if Mystra is neutral (and I have a neutral Mystra too), her Chosen have free will and are their own person and have their own goals (aside from working to nurture magic), so it would seem strange to me, if all Chosen were neutral. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 22:17:01
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
This leads me to another question. Many of the Chosen are quite proactive in their opposition to evil. Are there any evil archwizards who are of equal power and just as proactive in their opposition to good?
In the same way that one of the Seven might suddenly appear to destroy a slaver's ring, is there an equivalent bad guy who would just teleport into a gathering of paladins and lay waste to them?
There had been Chosen of Evil Deities, yes. King Obould Many-Arrows, one of the few Orcish kings that managed to establish a lasting kingdom, was known as the Chosen of Gruumsh.
He was also described as Exarch of Gruumsh (which means he was literally a demigod status at some point??).
Please note that I am talking about King Obould I (the First), as opposed to his successors who also picked the titular name Obould. If I'm not mistaken, we are now at Obould IV during the era of 5th Edition D&D. Orcs don't have very long lifespans. Not even their demigods endure that long.  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 22:20:29
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| I think that it was referred to the Chosen of Mystra. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 23:23:32
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| Oops, my bad. As soon as I read Valarmorgulis' question regarding possibly evil wizard Chosen, I instinctively thought about the other Chosen (of the various aligned gods). |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 23:37:52
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| I believe the Manshoon was revealed to be a Chosen of Mystra. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 23:41:27
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| Yes, but his status has been revoked in Spellstorm, AFAIK. Larloch is also a chosen, but of Mystryl. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 02:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
This leads me to another question. Many of the Chosen are quite proactive in their opposition to evil. Are there any evil archwizards who are of equal power and just as proactive in their opposition to good?
You've got to keep in mind the point of Mystra's Chosen. They are not, as many have misperceived, running around doing nothing but trying to advance the cause of good. Most people don't even think of what they do in terms of good and evil.
Part of Mystra's mandate is spreading magic. And there's a lot of evil folks that prefer to hoard it all to themselves. So Mystra's Chosen oppose them, not for their evil goals, but because those bad guys are hindering the spread of magic. The actions of the Chosen may often have effect of pushing good agendas, but that's not what they're about.
Look no further than Khelben, if you will. He made a deal with Fzoul Chembryl, stole an artifact from the Harpers to hand to Fzoul, and includes at least a couple of vampires among his agents. He's a Chosen of Mystra, but those actions are highly questionable.
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
In the same way that one of the Seven might suddenly appear to destroy a slaver's ring, is there an equivalent bad guy who would just teleport into a gathering of paladins and lay waste to them?
One of the Seven is more likely to send a convenient group of adventurers to deal with it.
And most bad guys wouldn't go out of their way to attack a gathering of any folks, paladins or otherwise, unless it advanced their personal cause. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jan 2016 02:30:52 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 02:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, but his status has been revoked in Spellstorm, AFAIK. Larloch is also a chosen, but of Mystryl.
Yeah, I hated that. Manshoon has been bumbling for decades now, achieving no lasting success. After the end of the Manshoon Wars and the destruction of Zhentil Keep by the Shadovar, we're teased with the notion that it is Manshoon's time to shine. Manshoon rebuilds the Zhentarim, (seemingly) kills Elminster, and subverts many of Cormyr's nobles with his powerful mind controlling spells.
But of course, disaster awaits him. Elminster comes back revitalized, stronger than ever, and smacks him down. Then Cormyr falls out of his grasp, and I'm still not quite sure how, despite reading The Herald. All the heavy hitter archmages are occupied in Myth Drannor, while Cormyr has been weakened severely by war with the Shadovar and infighting over the crown. Mystra's Chosen are mostly dead, and there is really nobody that has a clue how extensive Manshoon's intrusion has been among the nobility. Yet he spends half the novel chatting with Mirt and has nothing to show for it.
Then in Spellstorm, he falls for the obvious hoax about the Lost Spell (yeah, I know it existed, but he had to know Elminster would never allow him to have it). He nearly gets himself killed in that endeavor, and he ultimately gets his "divine spark" taken away. So now he's going to be considerably less powerful. With Telamont and all his sons dead, Shaan the Serpent Queen dead, and Larloch severely depowered, do we have any worthy villains left for Elminster? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 03:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
do we have any worthy villains left for Elminster?
THO has said that Ed's upcoming book will feature Elminster, and that could mean that he is not the protagonist. The book is also part of a new series, called Chosen Heirs, according to Amazon. Perhaps Elminster will leave the spotlight to someone else... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 06:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You've got to keep in mind the point of Mystra's Chosen. They are not, as many have misperceived, running around doing nothing but trying to advance the cause of good. Most people don't even think of what they do in terms of good and evil.
Part of Mystra's mandate is spreading magic. And there's a lot of evil folks that prefer to hoard it all to themselves. So Mystra's Chosen oppose them, not for their evil goals, but because those bad guys are hindering the spread of magic. The actions of the Chosen may often have effect of pushing good agendas, but that's not what they're about.
Look no further than Khelben, if you will. He made a deal with Fzoul Chembryl, stole an artifact from the Harpers to hand to Fzoul, and includes at least a couple of vampires among his agents. He's a Chosen of Mystra, but those actions are highly questionable.
That may be the stated mandate, but in practice (meaning published material of all sorts) all they seem to do is go around smacking down bad guys. So, regardless of their reasons for their actions, the net result is pretty much the same as if they were just doing it for the cause of good. Khelben is somewhat the exception, and Sammaster is certainly the exception, but that still leaves a lot of others.
Of course this is purely opinion, and one I can tell you don't share so maybe we will leave it at that. Not intending for this thread to be an argument whether the Chosen are too goody-goody or not.
But it would be nice to know of some bad guys that could stand up to them. In many stories of good vs. evil, evil is stronger and it takes the combined forces of good to match evil's power. In this case it seems that not only is good stronger, but good working together means that evil has no chance. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 12:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Awesome, thanks. It's interesting to see that there was no Ao, as that is how I prefer the Realms.
Although, I fail to understand how the Chosen are all that insane. Reading the Seven Sisters, the Simbul is the only one that comes across as even remotely unhinged (with the exception of Laeral under the Crown of Horns). All the others are depicted as being extremely wise and quite sane. Same for Elminster (haven't read any recent books so I might be totally wrong here). Of course, there's Sammaster, but he's only one of at least 10 Chosen.
Ummm, Storm chops wood naked.... I mean I know that easily it can distract you, but its not necessarily what a sane person would do. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 14:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Awesome, thanks. It's interesting to see that there was no Ao, as that is how I prefer the Realms.
Although, I fail to understand how the Chosen are all that insane. Reading the Seven Sisters, the Simbul is the only one that comes across as even remotely unhinged (with the exception of Laeral under the Crown of Horns). All the others are depicted as being extremely wise and quite sane. Same for Elminster (haven't read any recent books so I might be totally wrong here). Of course, there's Sammaster, but he's only one of at least 10 Chosen.
Ummm, Storm chops wood naked.... I mean I know that easily it can distract you, but its not necessarily what a sane person would do.
Honestly, why not? If you know what you're doing, you don't need protective gear... (You also don't need it if you can regenerate)
Doing it while clothed would result in sweaty clothes that needed to be cleaned.
And if you take out the nudity taboo of our Puritanical beginnings, then it's not a big deal -- especially when you're at your own place and no one else is around. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 14:37:30
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| Yeah, why should doing stuff naked be considered insane? I still think that it is eccentric, rather than insane. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1299 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 15:15:04
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| Isn't Halastar Blackcloak a Chosen of Mystra? There's your evil archmage. Also Manshoon is highly speculated to be one; plus that weird Zhent wizard that pops up in a few books (Hand of Fire I think is his most prominent appearance) that I swear is Elminster. What's his name again? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 16:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Isn't Halastar Blackcloak a Chosen of Mystra? There's your evil archmage. Also Manshoon is highly speculated to be one; plus that weird Zhent wizard that pops up in a few books (Hand of Fire I think is his most prominent appearance) that I swear is Elminster. What's his name again?
Hesperdan? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 20:11:31
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Well, Elminster has mentioned several times that there are several mages that are more powerful than him (though they were defeated, both Telamont and Larloch were more powerful).
The thing is, bad guys are rarely depicted as working together towards a common goal. At best they make flaky alliances while pursuing their own goals and betray their "allies" as soon as its convenient to them.
In the Realms, maybe the Shadovar were the closest thing to a united front of evil.
EDIT: Though, it should be noted, that most evil characters don't actually go out of their way to commit evil acts. Most of the time their evil acts happen to further their personal goals. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 11 Jan 2016 20:22:19 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1299 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 21:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Isn't Halastar Blackcloak a Chosen of Mystra? There's your evil archmage. Also Manshoon is highly speculated to be one; plus that weird Zhent wizard that pops up in a few books (Hand of Fire I think is his most prominent appearance) that I swear is Elminster. What's his name again?
Hesperdan?
Thanks Wooly. I couldn't for the life of me come up with the name. He seems a cool character, which he showed up more. Edit, I see he showed up in Elminster Enraged. Sigh. |
Edited by - Seravin on 11 Jan 2016 21:05:15 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 21:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Awesome, thanks. It's interesting to see that there was no Ao, as that is how I prefer the Realms.
Although, I fail to understand how the Chosen are all that insane. Reading the Seven Sisters, the Simbul is the only one that comes across as even remotely unhinged (with the exception of Laeral under the Crown of Horns). All the others are depicted as being extremely wise and quite sane. Same for Elminster (haven't read any recent books so I might be totally wrong here). Of course, there's Sammaster, but he's only one of at least 10 Chosen.
Ummm, Storm chops wood naked.... I mean I know that easily it can distract you, but its not necessarily what a sane person would do.
At the very least she should be wearing bikini chainmail! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 01:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Awesome, thanks. It's interesting to see that there was no Ao, as that is how I prefer the Realms.
Although, I fail to understand how the Chosen are all that insane. Reading the Seven Sisters, the Simbul is the only one that comes across as even remotely unhinged (with the exception of Laeral under the Crown of Horns). All the others are depicted as being extremely wise and quite sane. Same for Elminster (haven't read any recent books so I might be totally wrong here). Of course, there's Sammaster, but he's only one of at least 10 Chosen.
Ummm, Storm chops wood naked.... I mean I know that easily it can distract you, but its not necessarily what a sane person would do.
At the very least she should be wearing bikini chainmail!
See, now that would make more sense. I mean one slip and you could lose a nipple. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 03:55:43
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Larloch was defeated? I thought he was a "don't go there" character. Ugh. That annoys me.
I assume this happened in a novel. How did someone defeat Larloch and 60+ liches? |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 05:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Larloch was defeated? I thought he was a "don't go there" character. Ugh. That annoys me.
I assume this happened in a novel. How did someone defeat Larloch and 60+ liches?
In the most anti-climactic, least fun way to read. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 06:17:15
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Larloch was defeated? I thought he was a "don't go there" character. Ugh. That annoys me.
I assume this happened in a novel. How did someone defeat Larloch and 60+ liches?
He got Srinshee-d. Oh, and he left his liches at home.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 06:27:52
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Well, at least it was by someone of roughly equivalent power. Maybe even a little more power.
I was a little worried someone was going to say Shandril did it. |
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The Evolution of the Chosen
