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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 11:28:44
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Hi Scribes!
I've a question regarding the fate of Impiltur AFTER the Blue Fire.
The very few info around (4ED FR setting and 5th Sword Coast's AG) only specify the end of the Heltharn dynasty and the generic decadence of the nation.
Any lore about what happened to the Knights of Imphras II after the death of King Imbrar II?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 00:13:12
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No.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 02:53:00
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So what DID happen?
To Impiltur, I mean, post-Spellplague? I thought I heard something about it becoming the 'Demon Lands' are some such.
I'm only asking, because now that I am mapping in this area again, I've decided to do a little side-thing nearby (which may or may not see fruition - it barely past the 'mental exercise' stage). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 08:24:46
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There is not much of Impultur in 4e products. But did a research, if you don't mind LFR stuff:
-In the post-Spellplague Realms/1479 DR, Impiltur was really THE Forgotten Kingdom. A place full of lawlessness and evil demon cults. The people there was desperate and stuff, and due the change in the Sea of Fallen Stars, the trade faded and the economy of the kingdom suffered, there was an economic crisis and that stuff. They are recovering by the time SCAG takes places, but I don't think they are in their 3e state yet.
-The area is known (or was known, at least in 4e), as the demon lands, because demons bound in the age of Narfell and Raumathar were released after the Weave went off in the Spellplague. So, in 4e the place was good for demon-hunting parties.
-There was no king, no royal court in Impiltur since the Spellplague killed the last king. The country is ruled now by the Grand Council, an assemblage of nobles and wealthy merchants (some corrupt and the like). The situation hasn't changed by the info I've read in the SCAG.
-Lyrabar isn't the capital of the nation anymore. Its a backwater city, in fact, by the 15th century DR. Filled with criminals and demon cultists and the like. The most prominent city in current Impiltur is New Sarchel. The guys living in Sarchel were savvy enough to construct new ports when the Sea of Fallen Stars lowed its levels, and monopolized the sea trade, changing the name of the city to New Sarchel.
Lyrabar did it too late to not be affected by that. The other two ports cities didn't nothing and paid the consequences. By 1479 were mere towns. The SCAG says that the Sea of Fallen Stars regained its normal levels by 1487, and so Lyrabar and the other two now port-towns are recovering, but again, I don't believe their situation have been greatly improved in just a few years. New Sarchel may still be the prominent Impilturan city by 1491.
-If taken into account, the LFR adventurers improved the situation of the country a little bit. I haven't read them all, but I know they dealt a great blow to the Cult of Tharos (the main demon cult of Impiltur in 4e), destroying its power base in New Sarchel and killing many of its leaders (including some corrupt members of the Grand Council). So, this must be helping Impiltur to recover even faster. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Sep 2017 08:37:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 09:04:07
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| yeah, not every place needs to be dirtied up. Impiltur had its dark side, but it used to be pretty.... old wounds don't heal easy... this coming from the guy that loved Thay says much for how much that nation needed to stay the course. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 14:05:34
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Hmph. So pretty-much the only countries that were actually affected by the water-level drop (as far as I can tell thus-far) were Turmish and Impiltur. Weird.
Still, thanks - that helps me with the bit of lore I am creating (the Viscounty of Verbostag).
Hey George, I think its time we finally found 'The Lost Princess' (Ya know... because she was wearing that 'stasis' ring, in case of trouble?).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 15:27:37
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I just started an Impiltur campaign this week and George, I have to thank you for your tremendous work on the region. I was hunting through the scant sources covering the area until I hit upon your article in Dragon 346. While I'm setting it in 1495 DR, other than moving the water, renaming Sarshel to New Sarshel, and casting wide the doors of the Tower of Conjuration to unleash further slavering hordes of demons on the beleaguered region, I can lift the details almost wholesale.
If anything, your Dragon article was seemingly ... prophetic, what with the invocation to "make Impiltur great again" (Dragon 346 at page 56)and the notation that Impiltur is pursuing a policy of isolation (id.). |
Edited by - Veritas on 16 Sep 2017 15:30:11 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 16:00:18
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Old Sarshel and New Sarshel would be at least a mile or two apart, and maybe as much as 5 miles. I would assume as the new coastal city got built-up, people from the original would have moved there... but not everyone. I would also assume as things stabilized, each specialized in certain things rather than compete (New Sarshel naturally handling anything having to do with the Sea), and it became more like a 'sprawling suburban area between two 'hubs' (and the whole thing would just be 'Sarshel'). No matter what anyone 'official' (not you GK, I'm talking in-house) says, it wouldn't NOT make sense for the two settlements to be further than that because, at first, New Sarshel would have been extremely dependent upon old Sarshel for support/supplies/workforce. So basically, one went form being the new 'waterfront' area of the other (and such things have happened historically - see Athens & Piraeus), to being a settlement in its own right, possibly out-stripping the original.
HOWEVER - the water levels are back to NORMAL, according to everything in the novels, the SCAG, and just about everything else. This means that in 5e, New Sarshel is now an underwater ruin (and they really should stop naming things 'New Sarshel', because they ALWAYS become a ruin LOL). The only way to save it is to say it was built on a fairly high piece of ground (what would have been a reef prior to 4e, and would now be a reef again), and they've either managed to use magic or some clever gnomish engineering to keep things above water, or its got a bit of a 'Venice' thing going on (my vote would be for Venice). Oh, and change the damn name from 'New Sarshel' to some thing like 'Flotsam' (or the Realms-equivalent), or maybe 'Driftwood'.
We are gonna need a lot more settlements eventually, Krash - Impiltur has managed to fall behind Sembia now, and thats pretty damn bad.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Congratulations George, you work such magic that it almost makes the spellplague changes palatable . . . almost.
The Spellplague is like something disgusting we all stepped in... and now its stuck to the bottom of our shoe.
So instead of lamenting about our old pair of shoes, we have to be happy with a brand-new pair (that we've probably been needing for awhile anyway). They're not the same old pair we loved (which is now a smelly mess in the garbage), but they're shiny, and eventually we'll break 'em in and we'll feel comfortable in them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 02:41:17 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 16:55:00
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Never fear, the Heltharns learned their lessons after the death of a spate of princes prior to the Imbrar II. When the Spellplague hit, Imbrar II was killed and the realm was beset once again by a host of fiends and an attack by their old foes the hobgoblins, the heir at the time - his cousin Delimbrar (once of the Council of Lords) was hustled away by magic, faraway from the kingdom. In hindsight it was a bad call on the part of the Crown, because without a real leader the kingdom disintegrated pretty quickly and there was nothing to come back to for a long 7 or so winters as various power groups within the region pulled together and beat off the invaders, Sarshel at the forefront of the effort. That struggle was a bitter one however, and left the realm a disjointed, angry and disaffected place with the city-states going it alone and loath to lend aid to their neighbours and a huge rift emerging between the "northern faction" lead by Sarshel and the "southern faction" lead by Lyrabar. Subtle enquiries regarding the "return of the king" gained little currency and it was feared (correctly) that Delimbrar returning to the realm would mean a swift death sentence. So he never returned. His grandson Imphras is now the titular king-in-exile (Imphras VI) but whether he will ever make a return to the kingdom is doubtful. He will only do so if he manages to obtain strong backing either externally or internally and neither of those have eventuated to date.
-- George Krashos
Ummmm.... and the Brotherhood of the Griffin was JUST hired (like right after I read this) aaaaannnnnnndddddd they're rushing to re-institute him on his throne. Its said that Aoth Fezim of the brotherhood even commands a faction of Halruaan mages.
It is also said that Delimbrar has made contact with the mercenaries of the Company of the Old Gray Wolves from the barony of Polten in the country of Damara. The majority of the members of this company are a group of siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and blood by marriage who can all trace their lineage back to the famed paladin of Torm, Agarelth of the Twilight Riders, over a century ago, who some say was Haelimbrar, one of the Lords of Imphras II. Many of the other members of this company can also trace their lineage back to the Twilight Riders, including Myrddin Viligoth, Justin M'Dael and his wife Tamarin Moonwisher. Its said that all members of this company possess a curious figurine carved of bloodstone which is capable of reproducing the famed sunhorse spell once a week, but only for one of the blood of the original twilight riders and reputedly requiring a small blood sacrifice to create the effect.
That Haelimbrar did aid in the escape of Delimbrar, despite himself being in his dotage, is well known. What is not well known is that Delimbrar then released his guardian to return to the secret family that he had left behind in Damara. During this time, Haelimbrar (as Agarelth) did return to his old friend, Myrrdin Viligoth, a former red wizard apprentice who fled the cruelty of Thay to become a spellsword paladin of Ilmater amongst the heroes known as the Twilight Riders. Myrrdin, known for his use of simulacrums to form circles, and clones to keep himself young, helped "Agarelth" regain his youth through use of a clone spell, and its said that these two are still the leaders of the Company of the Old Gray Wolves. Its also said the Delimbrar's apparent youth is due to similar involvement with Myrrdin Viligoth, though such may simply be rumors and the truth of the matter may involve potions of longevity as is said. What is without doubt is that Delimbrar's family has grown over the last century, including many great-grandsons whose minds are filled with stories of returning home and restoring Impiltur's glory.
Finally, there are even rumors that a ragtag group of Yuir half elves of both green and star elven parentage are returning to the Tsurlar Forest, also known as the Grey Forest. Its said that they all received a strange dream vision from Relkath the Many-Branched that they were to aid in the performance of a ritual under the leadership of a young druidess of the leaflord and her twin brother, a ranger-mage. It is said that the two had been born of a brief love affair between Delimbrar and a star elf princess who was later killed by assassins intent on killing the heir of Impiltur, and that they were raised in the Yuir city of Relkath's Foot by their aunt for their own protection. What this ritual will do is little known, though many speculate as to the nature of old stories revolving around the weirwood trees and the moon elves that once occupied this forest. These elves, it is said, have begun to capture dozens, if not hundreds, of the hobgoblins in the surrounding wood, and while many think this is simply securing their homeland.... others whisper of a dark requirement of the rite that they intend to perform.
Of course..... all the above is only RUMOR.... Oh, and George, if you like ANY of the above and want to use it, my ideas are freely given. As is my history of Myrrdin Viligoth as a wizard/paladin of Ilmater.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=155918&TOPIC_ID=7576&FORUM_ID=19 |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Sep 2017 17:01:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 17:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Never fear, the Heltharns learned their lessons after the death of a spate of princes prior to the Imbrar II. When the Spellplague hit, Imbrar II was killed and the realm was beset once again by a host of fiends and an attack by their old foes the hobgoblins, the heir at the time - his cousin Delimbrar (once of the Council of Lords) was hustled away by magic, faraway from the kingdom. In hindsight it was a bad call on the part of the Crown, because without a real leader the kingdom disintegrated pretty quickly and there was nothing to come back to for a long 7 or so winters as various power groups within the region pulled together and beat off the invaders, Sarshel at the forefront of the effort. That struggle was a bitter one however, and left the realm a disjointed, angry and disaffected place with the city-states going it alone and loath to lend aid to their neighbours and a huge rift emerging between the "northern faction" lead by Sarshel and the "southern faction" lead by Lyrabar. Subtle enquiries regarding the "return of the king" gained little currency and it was feared (correctly) that Delimbrar returning to the realm would mean a swift death sentence. So he never returned. His grandson Imphras is now the titular king-in-exile (Imphras VI) but whether he will ever make a return to the kingdom is doubtful. He will only do so if he manages to obtain strong backing either externally or internally and neither of those have eventuated to date.
-- George Krashos
Ummmm.... and the Brotherhood of the Griffin was JUST hired (like right after I read this) aaaaannnnnnndddddd they're rushing to re-institute him on his throne. Its said that Aoth Fezim of the brotherhood even commands a faction of Halruaan mages.
It is also said that Delimbrar has made contact with the mercenaries of the Company of the Old Gray Wolves from the barony of Polten in the country of Damara. The majority of the members of this company are a group of siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and blood by marriage who can all trace their lineage back to the famed paladin of Torm, Agarelth of the Twilight Riders, over a century ago, who some say was Haelimbrar, one of the Lords of Imphras II. Many of the other members of this company can also trace their lineage back to the Twilight Riders, including Myrddin Viligoth, Justin M'Dael and his wife Tamarin Moonwisher. Its said that all members of this company possess a curious figurine carved of bloodstone which is capable of reproducing the famed sunhorse spell once a week, but only for one of the blood of the original twilight riders and reputedly requiring a small blood sacrifice to create the effect.
It is also rumored that the heir of Donlevy the Younger, baron of Polten after the Bloodstone Wars, did send a pair of twins, a son and daughter, to the village of Tellerth to be raised in secret by Agarelth (aka Haelimbrar) during the wailing years. It is whispered that this son married a daughter of Haelimbrar's bloodline and that the daughter married a grandson of Myrrdin Viligoth. Furthermore, it is whispered that if Delimbrar returns to power in Impiltur that the Barony of Polten may break away from the kingdom of Damara and swear allegiance to Impiltur.
That Haelimbrar did aid in the escape of Delimbrar, despite himself being in his dotage, is well known. What is not well known is that Delimbrar then released his guardian to return to the secret family that he had left behind in Damara. During this time, Haelimbrar (as Agarelth) did return to his old friend, Myrrdin Viligoth, a former red wizard apprentice who fled the cruelty of Thay to become a spellsword paladin of Ilmater amongst the heroes known as the Twilight Riders. Myrrdin, known for his use of simulacrums to form circles, and clones to keep himself young, helped "Agarelth" regain his youth through use of a clone spell, and its said that these two are still the leaders of the Company of the Old Gray Wolves. Its also said the Delimbrar's apparent youth is due to similar involvement with Myrrdin Viligoth, though such may simply be rumors and the truth of the matter may involve potions of longevity as is said. What is without doubt is that Delimbrar's family has grown over the last century, including many great-grandsons whose minds are filled with stories of returning home and restoring Impiltur's glory.
Finally, there are even rumors that a ragtag group of Yuir half elves of both green and star elven parentage are returning to the Tsurlar Forest, also known as the Grey Forest. Its said that they all received a strange dream vision from Relkath the Many-Branched that they were to aid in the performance of a ritual under the leadership of a young druidess of the leaflord and her twin brother, a ranger-mage. It is said that the two had been born of a brief love affair between Delimbrar and a star elf noble who was later killed by assassins intent on killing the heir of Impiltur, and that they were raised in the Yuir city of Relkath's Foot by their aunt for their own protection. What this ritual will do is little known, though many speculate as to the nature of old stories revolving around the weirwood trees and the moon elves that once occupied this forest. These elves, it is said, have begun to capture dozens, if not hundreds, of the hobgoblins in the surrounding wood, and while many think this is simply securing their homeland.... others whisper of a dark requirement of the rite that they intend to perform.
Of course..... all the above is only RUMOR.... Oh, and George, if you like ANY of the above and want to use it, my ideas are freely given. As is my history of Myrrdin Viligoth as a wizard/paladin of Ilmater.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=155918&TOPIC_ID=7576&FORUM_ID=19
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Sep 2017 17:55:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 02:45:00
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So good he had to quote himself.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 02:45:18 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 03:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
HOWEVER - the water levels are back to NORMAL, according to everything in the novels, the SCAG, and just about everything else. This means that in 5e, New Sarshel is now an underwater ruin (and they really should stop naming things 'New Sarshel', because they ALWAYS become a ruin LOL). The only way to save it is to say it was built on a fairly high piece of ground (what would have been a reef prior to 4e, and would now be a reef again), and they've either managed to use magic or some clever gnomish engineering to keep things above water, or its got a bit of a 'Venice' thing going on (my vote would be for Venice).
I guess this problem will also affect the new district of Lyrabar, as well.
There is a map of New Sarchel in the LFR adventures. If you want it, I can gladly give it to you. Warning, it will cause you a headache. The two Sarchels are nearly one another.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Sep 2017 03:09:59 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 03:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I guess this problem will also affect the new district of Lyrabar, as well.
There is a map of New Sarchel in the LFR adventures. If you want it, I can gladly give it to you. Warning, it will cause you a headache. The two Sarchels are nearly one another.
Zeromaru would you be able to send it to me please at krashos@optusnet.com.au
That would be awesome and much appreciated.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 03:22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Zeromaru would you be able to send it to me please at krashos@optusnet.com.au
That would be awesome and much appreciated.
-- George Krashos
Done  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 05:53:18
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Me as well - Markustay2012@Hotmail.com - if you can, Zero. We need to know what things looked like during the 'Lost Century', so I know how to interpret them moving forward. Which reminds me - I meant to post a WIP of the 5e continental map.
You know what I did yesterday? I made a map of Verbobonc... because I wanted a map similar to Verbobonc! (so first I had to re-do the official one, and then found a couple of newer ones - GH has some of the same problems we do, to a lesser extent - stuff changed after the GH Wars).
Anyhow, settlements are a nice change of pace for me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 17:24:20 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 06:05:24
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| Markus, is your email account correct? I've tried twice, but the gmail says that the direction is wrong or something. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Sep 2017 06:06:16 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 12:34:53
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Thanks Zeromaru. Well that goes down as one of the least inspired map changes I've ever seen. The Spellplague made them shift one mile south. Given that the oceans receded, Old Sarshel should have been west of their new location, not south. Do people actually ever think about these things ...?!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 17 Sep 2017 12:35:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 13:49:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks Zeromaru. Well that goes down as one of the least inspired map changes I've ever seen. The Spellplague made them shift one mile south. Given that the oceans receded, Old Sarshel should have been west of their new location, not south. Do people actually ever think about these things ...?!
-- George Krashos
No. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 17:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks Zeromaru. Well that goes down as one of the least inspired map changes I've ever seen. The Spellplague made them shift one mile south. Given that the oceans receded, Old Sarshel should have been west of their new location, not south. Do people actually ever think about these things ...?!
-- George Krashos
It is my opinion, based on what I've seen and what I've heard from certain folks who will remain unnamed, that there was very little thought applied to the actual consequences of the Spellplague. It was more of a "we'll make changes by doing this, and not even think of anything beyond our changes!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 17:23:14
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Pasted from the other thread...
You're probably not going to like this (I have a feeling you're more adverse to 'change' than I am), but what if Impiltur loses Lyrabar? If its not the capital anymore, why not run with that (because although I am happy the geography is 'restored', I find the whole "everything is as it was" thing patently ridiculous!)
I know your first reaction is going to be "no friggin way" (do they say 'friggin' in Oz?), but hear me out - I never liked Lyrabar. Its not a personal thing - I just found it weird that the only Impiltur city OUTSIDE of Impiltur is the capital. YES, I know its technically within Impiltur, but geographically, it makes little sense - there is a 'pinch point' there with the mountains and coast that separates The Vast from Impiltur, and Lyrabar is on the far side of that. In your new 'North vs South' Impiltur, why not cut it free (this has happened elsewhere in the Realms now)? Maybe its just become 'more trouble than its worth' (since the Spellplague, and the capital no longer being there, its population has fallen off, and maybe its even become a haven for pirates and other illicit activities).
THEN (6e?), you can have a 'return of the king' scenario somewhere down the line, where he (or she) wants to restore the former capital, which most parties would be dead-set against. In fact, you could even have an heir living in the city already, under an alias.
And at the end of the day, is anyone going to really care if the Vast gains one more 'independent citystate'? At least this one will have an interesting history (YES, I know all about Raven's Bluff), and a certain political intrigue going on that the others are missing (a city of 'factions'). Whereas the rest of a 'restored Impiltur' may look at Lyrabar as a 'thorn in their paw' at this point, a returned monarch may decide to 'embrace the thorn', for better or worse (giving us some very cool RPG possibilities there).
One last thing - if the place has 'fallen', and their economy is now heavily based on illicit activity, the government (a returning King) may have to 'walk on eggs' for awhile, because restoring 'Law & Order' could completely tank the place, financially. That would be a tightrope-walk right there (and now that I am thinking fully about this, I think I just gave Impiltur its own version of Marsember... with a twist).
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Markus, is your email account correct? I've tried twice, but the gmail says that the direction is wrong or something.
UGH - I combined my current one with an old (defunct) one. Apologies...
Markustay2012@Hotmail.com |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 17:23:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 17:28:17
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I can fix that, no worries. I plan to do lots and lots of 'map magic' to get stuff to work-out, lore wise (and save quite a bit as well).
Which is why I reposted that bit above from the other thread. Cliffs are going to come in pretty damn handy along the northern Sea of Fallen Stars.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks Zeromaru. Well that goes down as one of the least inspired map changes I've ever seen. The Spellplague made them shift one mile south. Given that the oceans receded, Old Sarshel should have been west of their new location, not south. Do people actually ever think about these things ...?!
NO
And I guess thats a good thing, because I'd be out of a (non-paying) job. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 17:29:45
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I just did a few quick calculations (its a damn shame designers don't have the internet... or a calculator...). The water level dropped by 50', right? that means for New Sarshel to make sense, the slope of the 'beach' there would have had to have been 1' of drop per 105.6'. In construction, we have 'pitches' of roofs rated from '1' to '12'; the first number being how far the roof drops per foot (12"). A LEGAL wheelchair also requires a pitch no steeper than 1" per 1' (called a 'One Pitch' in roofing, which is negligible and considered flat - in fact, anything under a '5' is considered a 'flat roof' for materials purposes). When I walk around on a roof with a '1 pitch' it feels flat to my body (no stress on the ankles, etc). The pitch the LFR guys are proposing there is slightly over 20 times that. 
Or rather, 20 times 'less steep' then what your body would recognize as 'flat ground'. This means Old Sarshel would NOT have been able to EVER have had a harbor. I know, I know... I seem to have learned some sort of ancient, secret magic called 'MATH'.
Fun fact - at a 'gentle slope' (a mere '3 pitch', or a drop of three inches per foot, which is what I am guesstimating going by beaches I am familiar with), a drop in water of 50' would require only 200' or less being built from the original location. In fact, now that I am finally 'doing the math' over a decade later, in most cases, all they would have had to do is extend the docks.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
t is my opinion, based on what I've seen and what I've heard from certain folks who will remain unnamed, that there was very little thought applied to the actual consequences of the Spellplague. It was more of a "we'll make changes by doing this, and not even think of anything beyond our changes!"
Very similar to what happens when you have unprotected sex.
Could get sick and die, could get a very ugly baby. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 18:11:14 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 18:25:57
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Love our ugly baby, dammit!
Anyhow, I just realized something - why didn't they just repurpose the original name of the city - call the old one 'Songhal' again, and the new one 'Sarshel'? (even though I just figure-out we never actually needed a new one). Use a name we already had, rather than all this 'new and 'Old' stuff (especially since there already WAS a 'New Sarshel' across the Easting Reach!)
When I re-do it*, I am just going to have it as one large, sprawling community, with the older section being referred to as 'Songhal' (and given that we now have two 'Dead/New Sarshels', I am just going to call the whole thing - New and old - 'Greater Sarshel', or simply, 'Sarshel', as most of the people who live there would).
EDIT:
Thanks for sending that, Zero.
EDIT2:
Holy crap (sorry mods), is THAT ever going to be easy to fix! I almost think they thought it through!
*Thinking in terms of 5e here, so this may never see the light of day. one of my many, many 'mental exercises' that help me keep track of whats going on everywhere). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 18:32:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 21:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There is a map of New Sarchel in the LFR adventures. If you want it, I can gladly give it to you. Warning, it will cause you a headache. The two Sarchels are nearly one another.
Now that I've worked it all out mathematically, it actually makes sense that most of the cities would have been little affected (in the long run). In fact, their existing docks could have been extending (with ramps and stairs, as well) to extend out further, and be lower. I'm sure a few new buildings would get built closer to the new waterline (because hauling all that crap up and down those ramps would be a pain... although they have invented the block & tackle...), but the existing structures/town would have no problem staying put. A few hundred feet further away isn't going to make them abandon entire cities.
What DOESN'T make sense are the few it did badly affect. All this time and I thought they would have had to move the settlements for the ports to work, and that wasn't the case at all. The 'waterfront district' would have just extended into the new area, is all. Thus, moving Sarshel (that map Zero sent us) made no sense - they couldn't just walk the few extra feet? My thoughts now are that 'Old Sarshel' would have just become 'Olde Towne' and NOT have been completely abandoned.
Unless some demons ate the original inhabitants... but then why even build there again? I'm very confused.
In case anyone is having trouble picturing what I mean by all this, I couldn't find an official-type elevation map that would demonstrate what I want, but I did find a RW real estate map that will work PERFECTLY. If you hit the link, look at the house on the left - lets say thats a house in (Old) Sarshel, near the water. The original waterline would have come up to the right-hand edge of those trees just to the right of that house (if you can make it out, there is even an arrow pointing to an old elevation line that says "Niveau Actuel"; thats where our water would have been pre-Spellplague). Then, post-Sundering(2.0), the water would be precisely where you see it there on the far right. That right-hand structure should be almost 40' tall by itself, top to bottom, and the roof still falls out below the bottom of the left-hand house! (and I know this, because I opened the pic in GIMP to make sure). And the bottom of the basement level is still around 30' above the sea level there.
So after a decade of bellyaching about how 'stupid the ports are' post-Spellplague, it turns out, the effect should not have been all that great. I was wrrrr.... wrrrr... I can't say it.
Lets go with 'inaccurate'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 21:06:20 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 23:09:55
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I just read the adventure that map came from. Its the last adventure of the LFR Impiltur's series, and its about a goblin/monster invasion to New Sarchel (that's why they give you a map, to help you with the siege). It have three potential endings. You either save the city and kill Morthak, a balor that is mentioned in the 4e Players' Guide; or the city is either destroyed or captured by Morthak and its monsters. The Grand Council survives in all endings. In the bad ones, they just relocate to Lyrabar.
There is no hint of what ending is the canon one, as the SCAG doesn't mention Sarchel nor other Impilturan city.
I also found the rules and oaths of the Impilturan demon hunters in another adventure (an adventure that is more interesting than the one about the siege; in this, you have to work/compete with another demon hunting team from Lyrabar; the NPCs are kinda interesting... better that Lord Pettygrew... yeah, actual NPC name. Is one of the Lords of the Council in the siege adventure). Those seem interesting for paladins and the like. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Sep 2017 23:25:57 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 23:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Love our ugly baby, dammit!
Anyhow, I just realized something - why didn't they just repurpose the original name of the city - call the old one 'Songhal' again, and the new one 'Sarshel'? (even though I just figure-out we never actually needed a new one). Use a name we already had, rather than all this 'new and 'Old' stuff (especially since there already WAS a 'New Sarshel' across the Easting Reach!)
When I re-do it*, I am just going to have it as one large, sprawling community, with the older section being referred to as 'Songhal' (and given that we now have two 'Dead/New Sarshels', I am just going to call the whole thing - New and old - 'Greater Sarshel', or simply, 'Sarshel', as most of the people who live there would).
EDIT:
Thanks for sending that, Zero.
EDIT2:
Holy crap (sorry mods), is THAT ever going to be easy to fix! I almost think they thought it through!
*Thinking in terms of 5e here, so this may never see the light of day. one of my many, many 'mental exercises' that help me keep track of whats going on everywhere).
I fixed the Songhal/Sarshel snafu in my Impiltur article in Dragon #346. The former is very much a separate settlement a little down the road from Filur. It also houses Tower Torfell, one of the three great military fortresses of Impiltur (not counting Ilmwatch itself).
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 04:17:28
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Yes, as I was working on my continental map this morning (trying to 'fill in' the region you're interested in), I noticed that (using my own, old Impiltur map as a reference... and I realize I got those little villages in the wrong spot LOL). No worries - we'll fix EVERYTHING this time around.
So I spent the morning on that, and I spent a good chunk of the evening finding ship silhouettes that I can trace and scale down (which took a few hours because I LOVE ships). But in the little bit of time I had in the afternoon... I almost completed the Sarshel map.
And thats WITH figuring-in the 5e map, AND adding all sorts of goodies (like small islands in Sarshel Bay... they'll be self-explanatory). And although I'm working in color (its just visually easier for me), I took what I had thus-far and converted it to greyscale, and it looks like it came right out of an old sourcebook.
Of course, they'll still be lots of back-&-forth, and I'll have to add a key and a scale, and all the numbered locales you'll want. But you should have something to look at tomorrow. I was thinking about 'cheating' and saying the newer part of town was laid-out by civil engineers (because straight roads are SO much easier to add buildings to), but since this is a small settlement, I figure I'll save that for somewhere where its really gonna save time.
Oh, and you can overlay the map onto the 4e one and everything works-out, even the harbor area (I just had to assume they built REALLY big buildings during the 'Lost Century', because if you compare those building-sizes to the area they claim was 'Old Sarshel', it just didn't make sense. Not so much 'tall', but rather, each of those buildings should house multiple residences and/or shops. Maybe they had giants helping them (or Firblgs, Ogres, Goliaths, etc).
Which of course you need not worry about George, because you're still back in 3e. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2017 04:20:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 13:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmph. So pretty-much the only countries that were actually affected by the water-level drop (as far as I can tell thus-far) were Turmish and Impiltur. Weird.
What I found hilarious about all of that is that the water level drop caused Laothkund and Soorenar to drown... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Impiltur 1385+
