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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte
38 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 11:48:26
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I'm looking for information concerning Faerūn's Moon and the manner in which it is depicted on various crests and heraldic symbols. It is traditional for Selune to be drawn with the horns of the waning moon pointing either upwards or downwards - that is the dark side of the moon is always shown to be encroaching horizontally as opposed to vertically, which is the norm for the phases of the earth's satellite.
Is this just an artistic flourish? I can for example think of a few similar logos outside of the Forgotten Realms where the moon is shown this way but the ubiquity of this symbol (it's a key feature of the original 1st and 2nd edition logos after all), leads me to think that maybe there is something special about Faerūn's Moon. Does Selune wax and wane this way? Astronomically this would have all kinds of implications, suggesting unusual orbits and the like.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 14:42:39
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I've more than once seen our moon as a crescent with the horns pointing up. My grandmother used to say that was an indication of rain -- the bowl was filling with water that would soon be poured out.
I don't understand the physics of it all, but a Google image search for "crescent moon" shows that I'm not the only one that's seen that. I would suspect that part of it is due to the viewer's perspective, and also that it may be seasonal.
As for Selūne, I'm not aware of anything that says it acts at all differently than our moon, other than the fact of its Tears, of course.
I would assume that the upward or downward crescent is simply an artistic thing -- it presents a symmetry and a more dramatic look than your standard crescent moon.
The regular crescent moon is used in at least one prominent symbol in the Realms -- the Harper symbol. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 14:54:03
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| It may be an artistic thing. An upward Cresent in Real World Heraldry has its own symbolic meanings, as well. For example, in English Heraldry, a "horns up," crescent can symbolize a Second Son. If the creator of the Realms heraldry was familiar with this, and intentionally used it in Realms heraldry, it could raise some interesting questions about lore. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 19:57:57
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Thank you.
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to astronomy but in all my time moon-gazing I've never seen any kind of moon-phase similar to that described above but like you said, there are geographical factors and the like that presumably have a big influence.
Maybe it's a stylistic decision? Clearly it appealed enough to Ed Greenwood and his co-creators to feature in a whole range of crests and symbols. It is notably slap-bang in the the middle of the early forgotten realms moniker after all, along with the afore-mentioned tears.
Delwa, "in English Heraldry, a "horns up," crescent can symbolize a Second Son. If the creator of the Realms heraldry was familiar with this, and intentionally used it in Realms heraldry, it could raise some interesting questions about lore." I think as Dungeon Master you are entitled to read something into the symbol's ubiquity. There is certainly a lot of fertile ground there for the creative mind. Does it point to some kind of astronomical event, once important enough to warrant reference in so many of the realms' coats of arms? Perhaps modern scholars have completely forgotten about the salience of this alignment only for it to reappear dramatically, pressing the adventurers into a journey to candlekeep to unearth ancient lore concerning the phases of Selune? There's an adventure or two there.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 20:21:26
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It certainly does lend itself to speculation.
This article explains the Real World goings on behind that appearance. Might spawn some creativity in the Realms, as well. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 20:56:27
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Delwa, the article helps however is not complete. The reason that the sickle reflects light differently to an Earth observer is the the moon orbits between the Tropics. Sometimes the reflected light is above the planetary plane and some times below, the shadow of Earth blocking there fore is above or below. The resulting reflecting light is above , below or on either side.
It is more geometry as far as the science concerned. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 20:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Delwa, the article helps however is not complete. The reason that the sickle reflects light differently to an Earth observer is the the moon orbits between the Tropics. Sometimes the reflected light is above the planetary plane and some times below, the shadow of Earth blocking there fore is above or below. The resulting reflecting light is above , below or on either side.
It is more geometry as far as the science concerned.
Thanks for the information. I admittedly didn't read it all the way through, just glanced over it before posting.  |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 21:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emerald Sage
Maybe it's a stylistic decision? Clearly it appealed enough to Ed Greenwood and his co-creators to feature in a whole range of crests and symbols. It is notably slap-bang in the the middle of the early forgotten realms moniker after all, along with the afore-mentioned tears.
Ed seems to like skulls, as well -- I've noticed more than one skull scattered around: the Old Skull, the Skulls of Skullport, Bhaal's holy symbol, Tashara of the Seven Skulls, the Skull in the Castlemourn setting... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 21:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ed seems to like skulls, as well -- I've noticed more than one skull scattered around: the Old Skull, the Skulls of Skullport, Bhaal's holy symbol, Tashara of the Seven Skulls, the Skull in the Castlemourn setting...
Not to mention the Skuldask road of the western heartlands - as detailed in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast. |
Edited by - The Emerald Sage on 24 Dec 2015 19:46:34 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
289 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 11:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Bhaal's holy symbol, (...)
And Myrkul's holy symbol, don't forget it!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 11:59:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) Bhaal's holy symbol, (...)
And don't forget Myrkul's symbol... And the rune of Amelior Amanitas (is it his?). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2015 : 04:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) Bhaal's holy symbol, (...)
And don't forget Myrkul's symbol... And the rune of Amelior Amanitas (is it his?).
I was pretty sure Myrkul's symbol was also a skull, but I didn't feel like looking it up to confirm. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2015 : 21:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
If the creator of the Realms heraldry was familiar with this
I don't have specific quotes from THO, but there's reason to believe that Ed is very familiar with real-world heraldry. Either Realms heraldry follows some/most of the same rules, or he's created his own systems.  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2015 : 06:13:42
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Posted to REALMS-L, 12 Apr 2000:quote:
while I can blazon like a professional herald, having studied this for fun for 30+ years, I choose not to, because:
most Realms fans can understand "field, dexter, sinister" shorthand, but would have to puzzle out the rest (why bother putting everyone to that trouble?), and I didn't want Realms heraldry to mirror real-world heraldry anyway...so Cormyr is prety close to English heraldry of about the 1600s, but Waterdeep breaks metal-on-metal and color-on-color rules all over the place.
The important thing to remember is that real-world heraldry was very untidy and inconsistent (still is, in many ways), and coherent rules came along late in the game...so if you consider Realms heraldry to be like 'old' real-world heraldry, with local heralds memorizing everyone's charges but the only 'hard' rule really being no duplication of arms within the same realm, and no use of royal arms by anyone unauthorized, anywhere, you've got it. Those who really want to follow established real-world blazonry are reminded that America ignores most of the European rules anyway, and that in both main systems, corporations are allowed to break almost all the rules if they pay enough :} (just like the Realms! :})
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2015 : 18:00:07
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I stand corrected.  |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2015 : 14:44:04
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| Good to know. Thanks, Faraer! |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Heraldry and Faerūn's Moon
