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deniz1a
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Dec 2015 : 22:13:58
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In Baldur's Gate survival guide (http://cdn.baldursgate.com/files/baldurs-gate-survival-guide.pdf) on page 24, it says:
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Darkhold has been established as a base within the Far Hills (a few weeks east of Baldur’s Gate), and stands as a terminus in the Western Heartlands for caravans from the northern, southern, and eastern Realms.
But on this map of Faerun here, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Faerun_map.jpg, it is shown that Darkhold is not on a road. How can it be a terminus for caravans? Iriaebor looks more suitable for it. Also why aren't Iriaebor and Scornubel connected by road? There's a gap in the road network.
Thanks
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2015 : 22:36:32
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| In Elfshadow a caravan stops at Darkhold, I'm sure it's on a trade route even if that map doesn't show one? |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 00:32:20
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| On other maps, starting with the 2nd edition Atlas map, the road hugged the Sunset Mountains instead of going around the Reaching Woods. Darkhold could definitely be a caravan stop along a road like that. The map that you've referred to either moved the goalposts or the artist simply decided not to put all of the major roadways on it. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:23:52
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| Darkhold is a way-stop for Zhentarim caravans on their private route across Faerûn, which isn't a permanently maintained road. Similarly, the way from Iriaebor to Asbravn to Berdusk is a trail rather than a road, shown with a dotted line on the original maps and then omitted in some later ones. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:32:27
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"Terminus" is an unfortunate choice of words since it implies the end of the road, and Darkhold is more of a midpoint in a lot of Zhentarim traffic.
The issue here, though, is that we're looking at maps made for everyone, the public, everyone except the Zhentarim. The Zhentarim have their own maps -- they have storage facilities that nobody else is supposed to know about, and they don't care so much about the waypoints that everyone else's trade travels by.
According to my understanding: Circa 1350s DR, the Zhentarim wants to take a lucrative slice of the trade going between Waterdeep and the Sea of Fallen Stars. They want to shift that trade so that it flows through Zhentil Keep rather than through Cormyr. So they develop a "road" through Anauroch -- it doesn't stay secret forever, and it gets the nickname "the Black Road."
The advantage the Zhentarim get, when this road functions properly, is that the distance between Zhentil Keep and Waterdeep is much shorter when you travel through the desert than if you go down through Scornubel, Iriaebor, Scornubel, etc. It's a risky route, as they find out, due to the phaerimm and their minions, but at the outset it seemed like a good idea because they know they can charm or destroy the Bedine, and the reward of moving goods faster while also taking Shadowdale and the whole tluining Elven Wood out of the loop is huge.
The Black Road across Anauroch isn't paved, and there are no obvious markers, and to my knowledge it only appears on one sourcebook map and maybe the mini map of a novel or two, but the Black Road is/was a real thing. It's a Zhentarim-only road and it isn't marked on "regular" maps because non-Zhentarim mapmakers don't know about it. (At least in theory.)
Point: Darkhold is a Zhentarim stronghold, and the roads leading to it are going to be (as much as possible) tightly controlled by the Zhentarim. Nobody outside the Zhentarim has any legitimate business going there, so they don't bother maintaining a "public" road.
And that's how Darkhold can be on a trade route without anybody knowing about it or seeing the road on a map.  |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by deniz1a
on this map of Faerun here, it is shown that Darkhold is not on a road.
tl;dr: No-road-drawn is not the same thing as saying that there isn't any kind of road there. In this case it means that the road is known and/or usable only by certain people.
quote:
Originally posted by deniz1a
Also why aren't Iriaebor and Scornubel connected by road? There's a gap in the road network.
In this case, it's not a limited-use road... it's just a less-maintained path. There might actually be a lot of traffic on it, but maybe neither city wants to spend *all* of the money to fix it up and they can't reach an agreement on how to split it.
Just my thoughts. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:55:34
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| The long-term Zhentarim trade route, which is their main source of wealth and which Darkhold exists to protect, runs just south of Anauroch and through Yellow Snake Pass. They also make various attempts to forge a shorter and safer route through the desert. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 09:45:21
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I think everyone's understanding of the trail lines one FR maps is off. These are not "roads." With very few exceptions, they are not paved or cobbled or anything. They are routes that have been blazed and can be taken.
For those of you old enough, think the different routes you can take in the game Oregon Trail. Pretty much such trails are just knowing the different way points along the route that are relatively safe and good spots for camping down. Some are well known and widely used by all. Others are less well known and more dangerous, but much faster.
The Black Road is one of these faster but more dangerous routes. Its key way points are the various known oasis' across the desert.
As far as I know there has been no update to this material since the return of Shade, which clearly would make things more difficult.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2015 : 17:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by deniz1a
In Baldur's Gate survival guide (http://cdn.baldursgate.com/files/baldurs-gate-survival-guide.pdf) on page 24, it says:
quote:
Darkhold has been established as a base within the Far Hills (a few weeks east of Baldur’s Gate), and stands as a terminus in the Western Heartlands for caravans from the northern, southern, and eastern Realms.
But on this map of Faerun here, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Faerun_map.jpg, it is shown that Darkhold is not on a road. How can it be a terminus for caravans? Iriaebor looks more suitable for it. Also why aren't Iriaebor and Scornubel connected by road? There's a gap in the road network.
Thanks
I believe this phrase is misunderstood. Darkhold is a ancient giant fotress not a hub for caravan trade. Therefore it is centre of protection for Zhentarim interests in the Western Realms. Caravans themselves are clearly using main roads as much as possible (or secured Zhentarim shortcuts) but for all traffic (except Black road) in or out of western heartlands Darkhold is a focal point (north-anauroch, south- inner sea and lot of mountains). So this "terminus" I believe is a midway station for Zhentarim troops as they can send support everywhere equivaly easily. For special shipment that are actualy goint to Darkhold they can use magic support to help heavy cargo cross the terrain there. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2015 : 08:40:00
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Either way it's a mountainous region, so the roads aren't necessarily straight, and there aren't necessarily many places fit to resupply on them.
But... yes, it's a good question.
quote:
Originally posted by deniz1a
But on this map of Faerun here, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Faerun_map.jpg, it is shown that Darkhold is not on a road. How can it be a terminus for caravans? Iriaebor looks more suitable for it. Also why aren't Iriaebor and Scornubel connected by road? There's a gap in the road network.
It's a big 4e map.
On other 4e maps it's a side-path:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Hluthvar
On some older maps it's a bit off the road too: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Corm_Orp
There were some others where it's on the road. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2015 : 22:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by deniz1a
In Baldur's Gate survival guide (http://cdn.baldursgate.com/files/baldurs-gate-survival-guide.pdf) on page 24, it says:
quote:
Darkhold has been established as a base within the Far Hills (a few weeks east of Baldur’s Gate), and stands as a terminus in the Western Heartlands for caravans from the northern, southern, and eastern Realms.
But on this map of Faerun here, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Faerun_map.jpg, it is shown that Darkhold is not on a road. How can it be a terminus for caravans? Iriaebor looks more suitable for it. Also why aren't Iriaebor and Scornubel connected by road? There's a gap in the road network.
Thanks
In the Castles boxed set, Darkhold occupies its own valley, called Darkhold Vale.
quote:
Darkhold Vale lies in the highest of the Far Hills. Mountains seal the little vale on the east, north, and south sides. In the west, a bottleneck entrance provides the only reasonable access to the valley. This bottleneck is the only viable route to Darkhold Castle, too.
So to answer your post, Darkhold is a destination, not a through-route. In a sense, it is its own little Realm. As for the gaps on the maps between road networks, beyond what is shown, there are probably unmarked trails and lightly traveled paths between between the major roads and trails that are shown. |
- Ryan |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 04:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
In the Castles boxed set, Darkhold occupies its own valley, called Darkhold Vale.
quote:
Darkhold Vale lies in the highest of the Far Hills. Mountains seal the little vale on the east, north, and south sides. In the west, a bottleneck entrance provides the only reasonable access to the valley. This bottleneck is the only viable route to Darkhold Castle, too.
So to answer your post, Darkhold is a destination, not a through-route. In a sense, it is its own little Realm. As for the gaps on the maps between road networks, beyond what is shown, there are probably unmarked trails and lightly traveled paths between between the major roads and trails that are shown.
Castles is not even FR product, however.
And it's about the major road which Darkhold supposedly controls, not the village trade network or something. The one that does get on continent-scale maps.
Then again, controlling the road doesn't mean the road goes right through the place. Just that it's within range of Darkhold's watchtowers and patrols, and road posts can be easily maintained from there. And if there's no other convenient place for resupply nearby, caravans can indeed take a side path even if it's not the end of the road.
Also, they must be able to somehow conceal traffic via Varalla's Passage. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 05:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Castles is not even FR product, however.
Uh... How so? The Darkhold portion of Castles has the Forgotten Realms logo on it. It was designed by Jeff Grubb, who did quite a bit of work on the Forgotten Realms back in the day.
quote:
And it's about the major road which Darkhold supposedly controls, not the village trade network or something. The one that does get on continent-scale maps.
Then again, controlling the road doesn't mean the road goes right through the place. Just that it's within range of Darkhold's watchtowers and patrols, and road posts can be easily maintained from there. And if there's no other convenient place for resupply nearby, caravans can indeed take a side path even if it's not the end of the road.
Also, they must be able to somehow conceal traffic via Varalla's Passage.
Those are great points to make. Near Darkhold Vale, there may be more permanent watchposts manned by Zhentarim and Darkhold forces. Farther out, Zhentarim and Darkhold forces would patrol areas they may consider "under their control." |
- Ryan |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 05:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Castles is not even FR product, however.
Uh... How so? The Darkhold portion of Castles has the Forgotten Realms logo on it. It was designed by Jeff Grubb, who did quite a bit of work on the Forgotten Realms back in the day.
The boxed set itself did not have the imprint of any specific setting. And its contents covered castles from three different settings.
While the Darkhold book itself is certainly FR-specific, the overall boxed set was not a product for a single setting.
That makes it a bit of an odd duck, for TSR. Most boxed sets were for a single specific setting, and it was quite rare for any single bit of material to cover more than one setting. Even the overlapping settings, Planescape and Spelljammer, maintained the focus on their own setting, even when examining one of the other game worlds. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Dec 2015 06:00:46 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
316 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 07:19:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The boxed set itself did not have the imprint of any specific setting. And its contents covered castles from three different settings.
While the Darkhold book itself is certainly FR-specific, the overall boxed set was not a product for a single setting.
That makes it a bit of an odd duck, for TSR. Most boxed sets were for a single specific setting, and it was quite rare for any single bit of material to cover more than one setting. Even the overlapping settings, Planescape and Spelljammer, maintained the focus on their own setting, even when examining one of the other game worlds.
I'm agreeing with your points, but it did have a purpose. From my recollection, it was one of the few products that promoted the mass combat rules that was Battlesystem. That was the intent, at least. Although in my case, I bought it solely for the Darkhold material. That's why I identify it as a FR product.
Yes, the boxed set itself is not setting specific. But as a Forgotten Realms completist, the Darkhold material within it is essential. |
- Ryan |
Edited by - Rymac on 17 Dec 2015 07:28:41 |
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deniz1a
Acolyte
2 Posts |
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Question about Darkhold
