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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2020 : 00:18:42
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Master Arcanamach,
Agreed on preferring HandsomeRob's version over Schley. Nothing personal, just a preference.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Palant
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2020 : 21:15:30
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Yes, a lot of 5e era maps has some "troubles" with scale.
Also, I not like 5e version of Luruar... |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2020 : 03:07:25
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Acolyte Palant,
That is definitely a problem for sure. Which map can you point to has the most issues you've seen for 5e with scale?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2020 : 04:15:39
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https://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/resources/Sword-Coast-Map_HighRes.jpg
Just to be clear, if you have a complaint about a map please provide the map which you are referencing.
If you aren't careful you may be attributing complaints to a 4e map, which as we all know was basically arbitrary in scale. When I did my deep dive into the Sunset Temple by Land's Mouth I came to the conclusion that the 4e Forgotten Realms campaign setting guide's map was stitched together from individual insert maps, and that the space between thumbnail area maps were squished or stretched to fit the desires of the designers. Anything not detailed in one of those inserts basically doesn't exist.
5e is clear about the fact that any differences in the maps are supposed to be due to MASSIVE shifts in sea level, the filling of enormous cavern and mega-chasms, as well as the re-introduction of entire subcontinents and the cleaning of magical wastelands.
If you have a criticism, share us the map you're referencing. Let's be scholastic about our critiques, scribes.
quote:
Originally posted by Palant
Yes, a lot of 5e era maps has some "troubles" with scale.
Also, I not like 5e version of Luruar...
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:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 24 Dec 2020 04:19:02 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2020 : 04:30:03
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Learned Scribe PattPlays,
That is truly a horrid map that you shared. The High Moors are are particularly offensive in how they are portrayed.
I see what you mean by the scaling though. That is tough.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2020 : 05:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
That is truly a horrid map that you shared. The High Moors are are particularly offensive in how they are portrayed.
I see what you mean by the scaling though. That is tough.
Best regards,
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SniTwfm5BwE/SwGdTsvt47I/AAAAAAAABzM/k7La6NHPP-o/s1600/Faerun+Map+3rd+Edition.jpg
It only vaguely looks different for me? Keep in mind, 5e isn't supposed to be a perfect recreation of the 3rd edition and 2nd edition maps. 4th edition still happened. 100 years of torrential change occurred, including some truly epic percipitation, earthquakes, volcanic activity, coastal shoreline changes, and endless chasm filling in the underdark. Is it 'horribly accurate' or is this within reason?
The Second Sundering yanked an entire continent (Returned-Abeir) from Toril's very physicality. Shockwaves from that were felt throughout the planet. Is it that hard to justify a few shifts on the edges (I see what you mean on the south-east side) but we're talking about aquatic terrain features. Rivers and moors don't stay the same over the course of natural disasters. The serpent hills changing is quite apparent and has no clean answer but I mean, some employee had to do the work and I wouldn't fault them for taking liberties with a few drawn on hills on the north-west side..
EDIT: Keep in mind that from WOTC's perspective if there's nobody playing in an area it becomes hard to devote effort and accuracy to them. As I've said before, it is almost completely unspoken online how exactly Anauroch physically transformed from a green landscape in 4th edition (Returned Netheril) into the classic full on continental desert in 5th edition in a matter of a year or two.
Nobody played any games in the area, so they hand waived it.
I haven't heard a single thing about anyone playing in the High Moor or the Serpent Hills in any games dated anywhere within several decades of 1490DR. Can you really be upset about them redrawing the lines of areas that nobody purchasing the books being published is playing there? |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 24 Dec 2020 05:40:39 |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2020 : 21:56:41
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| People should also keep in mind that inconsistency is sometimes more feature than bug. The Forgotten Realms runs on a few unreliable narrators to help justify players changing things. |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 10:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
It only vaguely looks different for me?
Do you mean 3rd from 2nd? Because there doesn't seem to be as much difference distancewise between them as some claim. At least as far as I can tell. If anyone can point out any big differences between 2nd and 3rd edition maps I'd be very interested in seeing them. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 10:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
It only vaguely looks different for me?
Do you mean 3rd from 2nd? Because there doesn't seem to be as much difference distancewise between them as some claim. At least as far as I can tell. If anyone can point out any big differences between 2nd and 3rd edition maps I'd be very interested in seeing them.
Essentially the map was shrunken vertically and shifted over somewhat so that the coast is more diagonal than it was.
You can see it when comparing these two maps;
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/6/6a/FR_2e.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/FRposterLarge_72.jpg |
Edited by - Scots Dragon on 29 Dec 2020 10:51:49 |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 15:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
It only vaguely looks different for me?
Do you mean 3rd from 2nd? Because there doesn't seem to be as much difference distancewise between them as some claim. At least as far as I can tell. If anyone can point out any big differences between 2nd and 3rd edition maps I'd be very interested in seeing them.
Essentially the map was shrunken vertically and shifted over somewhat so that the coast is more diagonal than it was.
You can see it when comparing these two maps;
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/6/6a/FR_2e.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/FRposterLarge_72.jpg
People keep saying that but the distances are almost identical to 2nd edition from what I can tell. And from what I've read they didn't skew it but rather tilt the whole continent slightly on the map. Is that not correct? |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 19:53:36
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The vertical distance from Calimport to Luskan goes from approximately 1,917 miles to 1,675 miles, a reduction of 15.44% in vertical space.
For reference, that's the difference between a 6'0 person and a 5'1 person. |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 21:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
The vertical distance from Calimport to Luskan goes from approximately 1,917 miles to 1,675 miles, a reduction of 15.44% in vertical space.
For reference, that's the difference between a 6'0 person and a 5'1 person.
Interesting. Have you checked distances between places horizontally? |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 21:18:48
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I did not believe the elevations in the Realms were that high. ;)
I do hope that vertical was meant to be more horizontal. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 21:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I did not believe the elevations in the Realms were that high. ;)
I do hope that vertical was meant to be more horizontal.
What would you call the different horizontal directions on a 2d object then?  |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 21:35:05
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I mostly meant looking at the map as placed on a wall or screen.
As it stands, the Forgotten Realms loses 15.4% of its north-to-south space, and a small amount of east-to-west space. And that's to say nothing of certain areas which were massively shrunken down or which are in fact absent from the map now entirely. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 22:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I did not believe the elevations in the Realms were that high. ;)
I do hope that vertical was meant to be more horizontal.
What would you call the different horizontal directions on a 2d object then?
A 2d object does not have vertical or horizontal direction as such, that depends on how the object is placed in the 3d world. The object has instead width and height (or x and y coordinates). It would have been better to say the height of the map was reduced changing the approximate travel distance...
I also do not do humor well when trying for it. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 22:14:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
I mostly meant looking at the map as placed on a wall or screen.
As it stands, the Forgotten Realms loses 15.4% of its north-to-south space, and a small amount of east-to-west space. And that's to say nothing of certain areas which were massively shrunken down or which are in fact absent from the map now entirely.
Yes that bug has been noted by many. A change in format of the map sizing. There however always remains the issue of any flat map being true to mapping a globe where lands further from the equator are depicted larger then actual land surface. |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2020 : 10:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
And that's to say nothing of certain areas which were massively shrunken down or which are in fact absent from the map now entirely.
Well cartography is difficult. 
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I also do not do humor well when trying for it.
I got the joke alright. Hence the smiley.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Yes that bug has been noted by many. A change in format of the map sizing. There however always remains the issue of any flat map being true to mapping a globe where lands further from the equator are depicted larger then actual land surface.
Indeed such "bugs" aren't unheard of historically. All kinds of things have shown up on maps to fill spaces where we just didn't know. I recall a map showing a huge mountain range in north america for example. Here are a few others:
https://futuremaps.com/blogs/news/5-historical-maps-that-got-it-wrong
All in all I would chalk such small changes off to inaccuracy of cartography. What's more interesting is the scale legend and travel time. That is mostly what cartographers in the Forgotten Realms would have been able to go by, assuming not all of them have access to flight magic. And even if they were all soaring high above ground with their parchment, ink and quill while drawing the projection of an obloid spheroid onto a flat surface is also a problem.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/environment/finally-a-world-map-that-doesnt-lie
All in all, inconsistencies are normal. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 30 Dec 2020 10:38:45 |
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Divinity
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2021 : 18:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I believe that was one of handsome robs maps (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, proper credit should be given). I'd be willing to pay someone to do a map with that level of detail throughout the Realms. I also prefer that style over Schley's work (just my opinion).
The amount of work to do this well would be simply insurmountable, in my opinion. To do it badly, maybe, but not well. Even if I took my already made map and added this level of detail to it, this would be a crazy amount of work. Figuring out all the regions naming techniques and coming up with the thousands of names needed would in of itself be overwhelming. Then actually adding them... and that doesn't include the mechanics of adding so many layers to Photoshop. It'd take at least three new maps of roads and names. Does this include dungeons too?
To approach this from scratch isn't something nearly anyone would take on. I wouldn't take it on for less than thousands of dollars. |
- Craig Vincent
My Faerūn Continent Map |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2021 : 01:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Divinity
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I believe that was one of handsome robs maps (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, proper credit should be given). I'd be willing to pay someone to do a map with that level of detail throughout the Realms. I also prefer that style over Schley's work (just my opinion).
The amount of work to do this well would be simply insurmountable, in my opinion. To do it badly, maybe, but not well. Even if I took my already made map and added this level of detail to it, this would be a crazy amount of work. Figuring out all the regions naming techniques and coming up with the thousands of names needed would in of itself be overwhelming. Then actually adding them... and that doesn't include the mechanics of adding so many layers to Photoshop. It'd take at least three new maps of roads and names. Does this include dungeons too?
To approach this from scratch isn't something nearly anyone would take on. I wouldn't take it on for less than thousands of dollars.
So how much would you charge for a few smaller, regional maps of say ... Impiltur?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Divinity
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2021 : 19:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
So how much would you charge for a few smaller, regional maps of say ... Impiltur?
-- George Krashos
Hey George,
I'd be happy to work with you on something if you have an interest. Last Aug we sent a couple emails and you mentioned an interest in an Impiltur map; I offered to help but never heard back. Whenever you want to chat about it just shoot me a message. finesse_16@hotmail.com
-Craig |
- Craig Vincent
My Faerūn Continent Map |
Edited by - Divinity on 08 Jan 2021 19:05:41 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2021 : 02:46:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Divinity
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
So how much would you charge for a few smaller, regional maps of say ... Impiltur?
-- George Krashos
Hey George,
I'd be happy to work with you on something if you have an interest. Last Aug we sent a couple emails and you mentioned an interest in an Impiltur map; I offered to help but never heard back. Whenever you want to chat about it just shoot me a message. finesse_16@hotmail.com
-Craig
I am interested Craig, just don't need them right at the minute hence the .
I'll be in touch in a bit.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 09 Jan 2021 02:47:11 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
293 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2021 : 11:32:07
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@ George Krashos
Can you legally make maps of WotCs intellectual property and then charge money for it? I know you have had a business relationship with them in the past, but is that still extant? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2021 : 15:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
@ George Krashos
Can you legally make maps of WotCs intellectual property and then charge money for it? I know you have had a business relationship with them in the past, but is that still extant?
Mike Schley does, but I suspect it was part of the deal when they commissioned him -- "make these maps for our books, and then you can sell them yourself."
And going through the DM's Guild would make it legal, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2021 : 15:36:51
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In general as I understand copyright law, you can not copy a map. There however appears nothing that prevents others making a map from available data.
There was one lawsuit concerning copyright of a map. https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/03/18/290236647/an-imaginary-town-becomes-real-then-not-true-story discusses it some.
So it clearly appears it is possible to make maps, just not copy them. One should check with an attorney though if planing on income from any made map. Might be required to state source of map data for example. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2021 : 03:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
@ George Krashos
Can you legally make maps of WotCs intellectual property and then charge money for it? I know you have had a business relationship with them in the past, but is that still extant?
Through the DMs Guild I can. Not planning to sell maps on the side.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Topic |
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Inconsistent Maps
