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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 17:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'll be stealing that if you don't mind
I don't mind, my infinitesimal contribution to these halls is free for the taking. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2424 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 20:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So I went looking and in -256 we have the first mention of waukeen as part of the adama faith in durpar.
[...]
Have we got any al qadim experts who know if there is a deific counterpart or religious organisation counterpart to waukeen or the adama
Adama itself mostly resembles the Temple of Ten Thousand Gods which is pantheistic enough to look like a branch of Believers of the Source too.
Of course, the Law of the Loregiver is already a bit of a common umbrella, in that there's a shared convention on "basic" matters like honour, hospitality and suchlike all Enlightened deities support, but they have their own priorities/ideals each.
No counterpart to Waukeen closer than Jisan the Bountiful - aka Jisan of the Floods. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 17:59:37
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One thing I've noticed is that many of our real-world religions were established centuries ago, they have organized clerical hierarchies, they have rich histories involving holy champions and heretics and prophets and schisms, they have vast libraries of ancient holy scriptures, they prefer ancient languages and use ancient terminology for things of interest to their religions. Ancient latin, hebrew, arabic, hindu, old chinese - some are still spoken today (and indeed have resisted change because of their use in religion) but most are dead languages, sacred languages, now spoken only in religious context. Interestingly, D&D draws the names for assorted demons and devils and monsters from many old mythological, religious, or pseudo-religious (occult) references.
So any ordained clergyman on our world today will be educated in an ancient sacred language like latin or hebrew. According to film and television, he will also use this language for invoking the most powerful prayers, spells, and rituals.
Yet in the Realms everyone speaks a common (which is written in english for our convenience). It seems rather uninspired, especially since most Realms deities have been around for centuries and a few have been around since before the creation of the world. Worshipped in ancient Netheril, worshipped in the far corners of the world, some even worshipped by other races or on other planes. Yet a Mystran priest has no exotic ancient words for magics and spells, a battlepriest of Tempus still says "enchanted sword" instead of using an ancient term, etc. You'd think druids - with their own entirely secret tongue - would use all sorts of specific religious terms in their normal language. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 20:21:48
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Well the language used isn't really what bothers me. Its that because the gods exist everyone takes the myth and legends associated with the gods as gospel truth, whereas I'm sure most people take the stories of real world religions with a pinch of salt.
Hopefully that won't start a flame but I'm hoping over the next few years to redo the religions, sort through all the myths and turn them into events that affected the religions and not the gods.
So for instance the myth of Tyche's death and the birth of Tymora and Beshaba would actually be based around a split in the church that began in late Netheril as two factions formed within Tyche's church, one that advocated good luck etc and became very rich through gambling dens (that were attached to the temples) and another faction that became very rich and powerful by blackmailing people and cursing them if they did not pay.
The factions were brought head to head when Netheril fell and the factions based in Low Netheril moved into the Tunlands/Western Heartlands area. The low numbers of survivors in general meant that the few faction members that survived became more powerful within the church because there were fewer members overall (they represented a larger percentage of the surviving members).
A brief kingdom founded in the wake of Netheril's destruction was the centre of civilisation in the region and Tyche's reforming church featured strongly because it had lots of money. The destruction of the kingdom by the daughter of Alithar Chonis who sacrificed his divine spark to Moander in return for mortality provides the basis for the rest of the myth.
None of it actually involves any gods but its easy to see how the myth could have grown from the reality which occurred in the chaotic aftermath of the destruction of civilisation in the region.
As for the languages I think I can explain how and why everyone has similar words and few ancient colloquialisms.
Everyone today speaks common as a trade tongue which derives from the old trade tongue Thorass. An enterprising chondathan trader supposedly created the Thorass tongue and I reckon he created it sometime between -450 dr and -100 dr. Basically the mixing of Netherese, Talfir, Jhaamdathi, and Illuskan peoples and their languages resulted in Auld Common being created.
As happens in the real world the destruction of civilisations results in the death of the parent language (pure latin is spoken by no-one as far as I know), and the mixing of peoples results in the mixing of languages and the creation of new ones (norman and saxon languages resulted in the English language and for a time both languages lived side by side for a few centuries until only English remained).
So everyone speaks common because almost all of Faerun was populated from the Dragon Coast/Western Heartland/Vilhon Reach region.
There are of course regional languages. Illuskan remains strong because they settled the savage frontier before the creation of Thorass and their civilisation was not destroyed because they formed only smaller settlements rather than a large civilisation. Calishite remains because it was apart from Jhaamdath and spared its destruction, the mixing of Calishite and Illuskan later created Tethyrian.
Chondathan is the evolution of the old Jhaamdath language and if it were me I would have it be the same as common.
Of course I don't hold to the idea that the gods and their religions are tens of thousands of years old. The creator races didn't worship the primordial and they didn't worship Shar or Selune (and I don't think Mystryl was a god until Netheril). So the worship of Shar and Selune died out with the Tearfall as did the gods of the batrachi and the sarrukh. Okay so they didn't die out completely but the religions were removed from the world as the creator races were, surviving in small pockets that remained isolated from the rest of the world.
The aearie religions suffered the same fate when the dragons appeared and the dragons and giants did the same to each other.
When the elves inherited Faerun the others that came before them had already withdrawn from everything for millennia, and the elves and dwarves came from other places and brought their own religions with them so knew nothing of Shar, Selune, etc.
The humans are the only beings creatures that lasted through the creator races and the elves to the modern age. They were most likely enslaved to the creator races (the sarrukh bred them into yuan-ti).
So ancient cave paintings and crumbling artefacts along with a few myths are likely all that survived of religions from the previous ages.
The Faerunian religions we know today all have their beginnings in Netheril, Jhaamdath, Calimshan, or Imaskar or immigrants with other people like the Illuskans.
Shar and Selune may not have even been the original name of the primordials, the netherese probably just found a few paintings and came up with a name that meant moon, or darkness. The religious practices are whatever the netherese decided for themselves (unless you follow that the gods micromanage every aspect of their worshippers lives). Targus was probably an idea poached from the humans living in the Ride who probably worshipped an old and powerful giant.
I picture the religions that claim their god has been around since the beginning of time doing so because like all human beings they view life as a competition, they all want to have the biggest, most powerful, oldest god. In reality if Shar existed as a god during the Age of Thunder then she died out long ago and may or may not be the same deity that exists now and if so was reborn as something different that could in no way resemble the deity of so long ago.
Just my take on it all and its still at the rambling stage but I'm working on it and completely removing the deific soap opera from Toril.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36800 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 21:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well the language used isn't really what bothers me. Its that because the gods exist everyone takes the myth and legends associated with the gods as gospel truth, whereas I'm sure most people take the stories of real world religions with a pinch of salt.
Hopefully that won't start a flame but I'm hoping over the next few years to redo the religions, sort through all the myths and turn them into events that affected the religions and not the gods.
So for instance the myth of Tyche's death and the birth of Tymora and Beshaba would actually be based around a split in the church that began in late Netheril as two factions formed within Tyche's church, one that advocated good luck etc and became very rich through gambling dens (that were attached to the temples) and another faction that became very rich and powerful by blackmailing people and cursing them if they did not pay.
The factions were brought head to head when Netheril fell and the factions based in Low Netheril moved into the Tunlands/Western Heartlands area. The low numbers of survivors in general meant that the few faction members that survived became more powerful within the church because there were fewer members overall (they represented a larger percentage of the surviving members).
A brief kingdom founded in the wake of Netheril's destruction was the centre of civilisation in the region and Tyche's reforming church featured strongly because it had lots of money. The destruction of the kingdom by the daughter of Alithar Chonis who sacrificed his divine spark to Moander in return for mortality provides the basis for the rest of the myth.
None of it actually involves any gods but its easy to see how the myth could have grown from the reality which occurred in the chaotic aftermath of the destruction of civilisation in the region.
With this spin, why did it then take a thousand years for the church to schism? We have a canon time frame for when that happened, and it was long after Netheril's fall.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just my take on it all and its still at the rambling stage but I'm working on it and completely removing the deific soap opera from Toril.
Out of curiosity... You're talking about re-writing the gods, and I've seen how much effort you've put into rewriting regional histories and other aspects of the Realms. Why put so much time and effort into entirely rewriting a published setting, to fit your own preferences, instead of just making your own from scratch? |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jan 2016 21:48:21 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 12:21:44
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Well, Tyr was revealed by Ed to be a fairly old deity, which was actually suggested earlier in Prayers From the Faithful, that Tyr was active 4000 years ago (in the current 1400's 5000 years ago), and the followers of Tyr were known to have slain the great wyrm Rivenaurlgoth the Darkly Pious in the Marching Mountains in -284 DR, 37 years before Tyr's official arrival in -247 DR.
My own fan theory, is that Tyr arrived with Annam, as a Giant deity, probably a lesser one, and absorbed/merged with a Beholder deity along the way. Tyr was in Norse mythos of Giant origin, with Tyr's father being the Giant Hymir.
I guess in -247 DR, was an a renaissance of Tyr's faith, or that the Norse pantheon Tyr arrived, merged with the older Tyr/version of himself, revitalising him, especially that Ed described Tyr as a member of the Jhaamdathi Pantheon. |
Edited by - Baltas on 08 Jan 2016 12:30:39 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 13:39:51
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| Interesting take on Tyr. As Arrtyr Judge Of All, has a name fitting od a god of dead/death, I had him a result of a Talfiric god similar to the Celtic Arawn, conflated with Tyr. In your vision, it would be the Talfiric probably mixing/influenced by either an Illuskan or Calimshan "Tyr". |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 13:45:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
(...) and the followers of Tyr were known to have slain the great wyrm Rivenaurlgoth the Darkly Pious in the Marching Mountains in -284 DR, 37 years before Tyr's official arrival in -247 DR.
Where can I find this info? Which kind of dragon was Rivenaurlgoth? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 14:28:52
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It's from Empires of the Shining Sea, page 9.
Rivenaurlgoth was a red great wyrm, according to Dragons of Faerun. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 16:10:48
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Nice, thanks!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 22:36:18
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Also, about Jisan, Jauhar and Waukeen.
I think that Jauhar is rather inspired by Waukeen, especially that Jisan seems an older tradition, with the cult of Jauhar starting to uproot it.
My own, somewhat bizare take on Jisan, is that she's a very early on split aspect of Tiamat, but even before she was Tiamat, but Yaldabaoth as detailed in Candlekeep Compendium IV:
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip
Yaldabaoth was a 'benevolent' Chaotic Neutral Goddess(or rather Primordial, if we take 4e terms) of Seas, Storms, and Seawyrms.
Jisan was also originally a goddess of storms and floods, and her becoming a goddess of fruitfulness(often in the comercial sense, as Jisan embodies hard work and diligent planning in order to harvest the riches of the world) was influenced and paralell to Tiamat becoming a goddess of Greed.
On an somewhat related topic, we may some evidence of Unther, or at least Unther branch Mulani indluence on Zakkhara, seeing how on Sahu, the Isle of Necromancers, we have The Iron Spires of Ereshkigal, and The Colossus of Uruk .
Alternatelly, it's possible Ereshkigal or at least her cult, arrived on Toril in Zakhara before even -2489 DR/The Arrival of The God-Kings. |
Edited by - Baltas on 08 Jan 2016 22:37:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11815 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 01:31:36
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regarding Tyr, I thought this was interesting when we asked about Tyr in the Ask Ed column last year
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all. Ed has been very busy these last few weeks (writing, dealing with severe winter weather where he dwells, and coping with the effects of a severe injury to his wife), and apologizes for his lengthy silences here at the Keep.
However, he HAS been reading all of your posts I've been ferrying him, when he can snatch the time, and has roused himself to make some replies.
Here's one of them:
dazzerdal and sleyvas, Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").
So saith Ed, illuminating a tiny glimpse of the dim past of the Realms.
love to all,
THO
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 14:58:09
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Very interesting insight into Ed's comment dazzlerdal.
But I'm curious, what do think of the possibility Jisan is a benevolent deity, that split of from Yaldabaoth when, or before she became Tiamat?
And what do you think about the The Iron Spires of Ereshkigal, and The Colossus of Uruk on Sahu?
An settlement of Untheri Mulan who split from the main group, or evidence of an earlier influence or the Babylo-Akkadiad and/or Sumerian pantheon members? Or something else? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 20:50:53
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Well I can't claim to know anything about Zakhara, but I have investigate the Old Empires a bit and in one source it stated that Gilgeam drove away many of the other powers of Unther and that they fled south.
Now normally I would take that to mean the religions were driven out and not the gods themselves (gods being metaphysical beings and all that with no need to travel anywhere). However the untheric and mulhorandi gods are special in that they were physically present on Toril for quite some time (although I don't adhere to current thinking on Unther and I think the Imaskari Planar barrier only encompassed the Old Empires - not the entire world - and it was brought down earlier than we think its just that Gilgeam preferred to remain physically present on Toril because he loved the pleasures it offered).
So these "gods" of Unther could easily have travelled south, along with their followers. Looking at the artwork of Al Qadim it looks like there are plenty of humongous beings around that if they existed in Faerun might well be termed primordials.
We have no names for these other gods of Unther and I prefer to use as many gods of the Sumerian, Babylonian, and Egyptian pantheons as possible in the old empires to increase its richness (its just that many died during the war with Imaskar or in the Orcgate Wars or were driven away by Gilgeam).
So Ereshkigul could have travelled south to Zakhara (although there is a reference to her existing beneath Unthalass - so perhaps its just her followers), Uruk could also have journeyed south (whoever he is I haven't looked into real life deities at all) or it could be his followers again.
Alternatively we know that Unther controlled much of the Shaar and so it is entirely likely that they encountered traders from Durpar or even from Zakhara itself which then took word of various ideas and religions back to their home lands.
Looking briefly at Zakhara I would hesitate to link Jisan to an origin in Faerun purely because all other foreign deities have been classified as "wild" or "savage" and not part of the enlightenment ideal. That doesn't mean the worship couldn't work the other way and the religion be exported to Faerun but I do think the Zakharans regard their own heritage as superior (like Calimshan) and so would reject something so foreign.
Plus I think Tiamat began as something other than the draconic god and was originally a powerful sorceress that became a god of rebellion and anarchy in Unther and chief enemy of Gilgeam (later being consumed by the dragon Tiamat to become the draconic goddess of Tyranny, Greed, etc).
In almost all instances I'm trying to view events purely in terms of the clergy and the religion (what happens to the deity is unimportant as it isn't even present on the material plane and interactions are few and far between - unless you play gods like emotional teenagers with attention deficit problems as they are depicted in novels). So anything involving an evolution of a religion from a god of greed into a god of trade would be purely independent of the actions or wishes of the deity.
However the Old Empires do muddy the waters of that theory somewhat since they were physically present in the region for great spans of time and therefore did directly affect their religion - with predictably poor results as occurs with all leaders engaging in micromanagement.
Just my take however, and not even based on any solid research at this point since I haven't ever read an Al Qadim sourcebook yet (it's on my to do list) |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 23:07:21
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Well, I know that you think that the Unther Tiamat was an ascended sorceress, but I actually meant the Draconic Tiamat.
Mostly because (draconic) Tiamat's Greed portfolio, is paralell, but with less negative traits to Jisan's comercical portfolio.
I also meant that Jisan's cult diverged, and split from (the draconic)Tiamat very early on, even before Yaldabaoth(the Draconic Goddess of seas and storms according to stuff by Brian R. James in Candlekeep Compendium IV), became Tiamat.
Here are the details.
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip
It's also possible people of Zakhara found information about this ancient, uncorrupted incarnation of (the draconic) Tiamat from some increadibly ancient ruins, and created a new deity in her image out their faith.
Also, Uruk wasn't a deity, but a Sumeran city, dedicated to An/Anu, and Inanna/Ishtar.
So it could be that some of Anu's or An's(the Sumerian name/form of Anu) faithul, traveled East and South to Zakhara, along with the faithful of Ereshkigal. Their(faithful of An or Anu) stop at Durpar, could give there a spark for the Adama religion, along with Kara-Tur's "The Path of Enlightenment" and "The Way", as Durpari in the oldest publications worshipped Anu.
The Ereshkigal that became a Lamia, might be one of the lesser avatars/aspects of the Ereshkigal, as Mulan Gods were noted to produce such, and Gilgeam actually disposed of his own aspects.
Alternatelly, it's an aspect of Ereshkigal, who traveled to Zakhara, after her prime self was cursed.
[EDIT]
Also, it's an reall world thing, but Ereshkigal came through an interesting transformation, becoming the Goddess Allat/Al-Lat worshipped by the Arabians, who was more similar to her sister Ishtar/Inanna, or the Greek Athena, Tyche or Aphrodite.
Allat is also one of Allah's three daughters according to very disputed Satannic verses...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-l%C4%81t
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses
So it's possible Ereshkigal, or her faith in Zakhara also evolved into something else... |
Edited by - Baltas on 11 Jan 2016 08:11:19 |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2016 : 11:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So for instance the myth of Tyche's death and the birth of Tymora and Beshaba would actually be based around a split in the church that began in late Netheril as two factions formed within Tyche's church, one that advocated good luck etc and became very rich through gambling dens (that were attached to the temples) and another faction that became very rich and powerful by blackmailing people and cursing them if they did not pay.
The factions were brought head to head when Netheril fell and the factions based in Low Netheril moved into the Tunlands/Western Heartlands area. The low numbers of survivors in general meant that the few faction members that survived became more powerful within the church because there were fewer members overall (they represented a larger percentage of the surviving members).
A brief kingdom founded in the wake of Netheril's destruction was the centre of civilisation in the region and Tyche's reforming church featured strongly because it had lots of money. The destruction of the kingdom by the daughter of Alithar Chonis who sacrificed his divine spark to Moander in return for mortality provides the basis for the rest of the myth.
None of it actually involves any gods but its easy to see how the myth could have grown from the reality which occurred in the chaotic aftermath of the destruction of civilisation in the region.
In my Kara-Tur Tyche is still worshiped as a whole and her followers see Tyche as embodying the balance between good luck and bad luck and she does so to teach the importance of having balance in one's own life. Priests of Tyche are taught to strive a balance in all things and there are numerous parables they recite that tell of a much younger Tyche who had yet struck that balance and the trouble she got into as a result.
So I definitely see the so called splittings of gods, merging of them, deaths and their rebirths as a very mortal-viewpoint on what happens to the gods rather than as a cosmic truth. It would likely horrify a cleric of Tymora to see their god and Beshaba worshiped as the same entity. But that only helps accentuate the differences between the two cultures and it raises rather neatly the question of who is right (without necessarily offering an answer). |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
Edited by - JohnLynch on 18 Jan 2016 11:08:15 |
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Faiths and pantheons
