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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Nov 2015 : 23:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was a game called Space:1889, back in the day.
Okay, not every single one. But the fact that you didn't play it strengthens my point: people expect space settings to be futuristic, and a space setting that's clearly *not* a futuristic one will draw attention. Some of it might be negative; people can decide *not* to buy it... but some will be positive. I just think Spelljammer wasn't clear enough, and it might have done better if it was marketed/presented to us differently.
Or it might not have... not everyone wants space, regardless of the time frame. But there is a group of people "out there" who like medieval settings and also like space, who didn't realize how much they might have enjoyed Spelljammer. Dunno how many people are in that group. Maybe not enough to justify resurrecting the product line. But it seems like it wouldn't hurt to acknowledge its existence. I've only seen a few references to it in Realms products, and I don't get why that's true.
Seems like they could support Spelljammer in FR products without committing upfront to resuming the SJ product line. If/when fans start clamoring for new official SJ products, then market testing can decide whether it's practical.
*shrug* Just thoughts. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 24 Nov 2015 23:19:42 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 02:22:48
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When he uses the words "Cloak" and "Dagger" as code names...what Realms sourcebook does that remind you of?  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 02:36:01
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GH>FR
But that is for me.
I get the impression a good number of FR fans are in love with the depth , scale, and detail of the setting. They want a more complete world, and they want official metaplot provided as well.
There is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they aren't creative or fun. Fans do all kinds of cool stuff with the ample building materials.
But I prefer a more "sandbox plus modules " approach. Big map. Some details on a possible starting base. Random encounter tables. Maybe a page of history. Brief descriptions of various places and people. All in one modest sized package. Here are some great modules. Giants. Drow. Temple of Elemental Evil. Hells yeah! Now go play.
GH gives this, and does it very well.
FTA added a lot more, with a mixed reception, but still basically kept the focus on adventures over powerful NPCs and lengthy gazetteers.
It's not an accident that by far my favorite FR product is the Old Gray Box, which is a lot closer to the big sandbox with adventure hooks format than what comes later.
I think if you want loads of sourcebooks, you want FR.
GH is more accessible as a game setting than what FR became over time.
Which is why Wizbros blew up FR in 4E. Wasn't the idea to not only provide an in game justification for changes to magic, new races, etc, but to kill off scads of NPCs and make lots of canon lore less important through the century leap? Cut off dozens of metaplot stories, age out hordes of NPCs, and wash whole regions clean of previous canon accretion.
Opinion seems divided about the results, but as WR noted, no product is going to make everybody happy.
YMMV
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 25 Nov 2015 02:47:40 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 03:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
GH>FR
But that is for me.
I get the impression a good number of FR fans are in love with the depth , scale, and detail of the setting. They want a more complete world, and they want official metaplot provided as well.
There is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they aren't creative or fun. Fans do all kinds of cool stuff with the ample building materials.
But I prefer a more "sandbox plus modules " approach. Big map. Some details on a possible starting base. Random encounter tables. Maybe a page of history. Brief descriptions of various places and people. All in one modest sized package. Here are some great modules. Giants. Drow. Temple of Elemental Evil. Hells yeah! Now go play.
GH gives this, and does it very well.
FTA added a lot more, with a mixed reception, but still basically kept the focus on adventures over powerful NPCs and lengthy gazetteers.
It's not an accident that by far my favorite FR product is the Old Gray Box, which is a lot closer to the big sandbox with adventure hooks format than what comes later.
I think if you want loads of sourcebooks, you want FR.
GH is more accessible as a game setting than what FR became over time.
Which is why Wizbros blew up FR in 4E. Wasn't the idea to not only provide an in game justification for changes to magic, new races, etc, but to kill off scads of NPCs and make lots of canon lore less important through the century leap? Cut off dozens of metaplot stories, age out hordes of NPCs, and wash whole regions clean of previous canon accretion.
Opinion seems divided about the results, but as WR noted, no product is going to make everybody happy.
YMMV
I get what you're saying. I don't think the Forgotten Realms is any less sandbox than Greyhawk. In terms of scale, especially the 1e/2e world of Faerun, it is huge. A creative DM can run a campaign from the low to high levels without bumping into anything cannon in the Realms. It just doesn't seem like it, because of all the sourcebooks that have been published in the nearly 30 years of the Forgotten Realms. Even when regions that were set aside like Sembia or the Wood of Sharp Teeth were developed, there is still vast space to create forgotten dungeons, castles, and kingdoms.
Greyhawk has had less detail and support, which some people like, while others don't. |
- Ryan |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 03:16:03
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I would gladly purchase a Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide style of book that covered Greyhawk.
Greyhawk is overdue for some love from WotC, in my not so humble opinion. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 03:50:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
GH>FR
But that is for me.
I get the impression a good number of FR fans are in love with the depth , scale, and detail of the setting. They want a more complete world, and they want official metaplot provided as well.
There is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they aren't creative or fun. Fans do all kinds of cool stuff with the ample building materials.
But I prefer a more "sandbox plus modules " approach. Big map. Some details on a possible starting base. Random encounter tables. Maybe a page of history. Brief descriptions of various places and people. All in one modest sized package. Here are some great modules. Giants. Drow. Temple of Elemental Evil. Hells yeah! Now go play.
GH gives this, and does it very well.
FTA added a lot more, with a mixed reception, but still basically kept the focus on adventures over powerful NPCs and lengthy gazetteers.
It's not an accident that by far my favorite FR product is the Old Gray Box, which is a lot closer to the big sandbox with adventure hooks format than what comes later.
I think if you want loads of sourcebooks, you want FR.
GH is more accessible as a game setting than what FR became over time.
Which is why Wizbros blew up FR in 4E. Wasn't the idea to not only provide an in game justification for changes to magic, new races, etc, but to kill off scads of NPCs and make lots of canon lore less important through the century leap? Cut off dozens of metaplot stories, age out hordes of NPCs, and wash whole regions clean of previous canon accretion.
Opinion seems divided about the results, but as WR noted, no product is going to make everybody happy.
YMMV
I get what you're saying. I don't think the Forgotten Realms is any less sandbox than Greyhawk. In terms of scale, especially the 1e/2e world of Faerun, it is huge. A creative DM can run a campaign from the low to high levels without bumping into anything cannon in the Realms. It just doesn't seem like it, because of all the sourcebooks that have been published in the nearly 30 years of the Forgotten Realms. Even when regions that were set aside like Sembia or the Wood of Sharp Teeth were developed, there is still vast space to create forgotten dungeons, castles, and kingdoms.
Greyhawk has had less detail and support, which some people like, while others don't.
Right, some of it comes down to perception.
FR has scads of books so it looks more " filled out" to many people. Good to some, less interesting to others.
Me, I don't mind jacking some stuff from FR books and using it in other settings. I added most of FR 2E Moonshae to my Birthright game. Why not?
FR itself grew at first by jacking some generic module settings and making them part of FR.
Bloodstone, Korinn Archielago, Desert of Desolation, yo.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 03:55:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I would gladly purchase a Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide style of book that covered Greyhawk.
Greyhawk is overdue for some love from WotC, in my not so humble opinion.
I hope that they put one out for guys like you, who want a 5E GH book.
But I don't play 5E, so I really don't need any new GH rules/ stats material. I can't see how anything 5E could be more useful to me than the GH stuff I already have. Not if it is a general description of the setting repeating a lot of info I already have in hard copy, with a metaplot " update" added on.
I am not in Wizbros target audience because I stick with OOP editions. This doesn't mean I don't wish them well.
Zero nerd rage here.
Or does the SCAG give new and fresh material on the Sword Coast, and avoid a lot of repetition of previous canon on the rest of the setting?
The name seems to imply that possibility.
What I would buy from Hasbro would be a module, if I liked it and if it came with a no additional cost conversion to my edition of choice ( web enhancement, yo).
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 25 Nov 2015 04:36:25 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 05:51:09
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I have not finished reading the SCAG.
What I can tell you is that it does repeat place names and introductory campaign world information, but what I have read of place descriptions feels fresh; not to say that it feels new, but that it most certainly feels up to date. The descriptions are interesting.
That feeling is what I hope to get from a Greyhawk book. I am certain I will recognize the basics in a new book, but that's OK because the basics shouldn't take up much space. Once this hypothetical book gets into describing the kingdoms and cities...that's where the awesome happens.
I still have a ways to go so this opinion of mine about the SCAG could change. But so far, so good.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 25 Nov 2015 05:56:21 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 13:27:46
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| The SCAG wets the apetite, but does not satisfy, it should have had at minium twice the page count. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 15:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The SCAG wets the apetite, but does not satisfy, it should have had at minium twice the page count.
Curious: why counter a positive statement with a negative one? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2015 : 19:04:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I always thought melf came from the abbreviation for male elf that was littered throughout the older sourcebooks to give brief alignment, race, gender, and level details.
Melf Brightflame was a character played by Luke Gygax. Prince of Celene and adventurer of Greyhawk and its environs. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2015 : 02:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The SCAG wets the apetite, but does not satisfy, it should have had at minium twice the page count.
Curious: why counter a positive statement with a negative one?
What do you mean, I don't understand the question, please clarify. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2015 : 20:50:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
GH>FR
But that is for me.
I get the impression a good number of FR fans are in love with the depth , scale, and detail of the setting. They want a more complete world, and they want official metaplot provided as well.
There is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they aren't creative or fun. Fans do all kinds of cool stuff with the ample building materials.
But I prefer a more "sandbox plus modules " approach. Big map. Some details on a possible starting base. Random encounter tables. Maybe a page of history. Brief descriptions of various places and people. All in one modest sized package. Here are some great modules. Giants. Drow. Temple of Elemental Evil. Hells yeah! Now go play.
GH gives this, and does it very well.
FTA added a lot more, with a mixed reception, but still basically kept the focus on adventures over powerful NPCs and lengthy gazetteers.
It's not an accident that by far my favorite FR product is the Old Gray Box, which is a lot closer to the big sandbox with adventure hooks format than what comes later.
I think if you want loads of sourcebooks, you want FR.
GH is more accessible as a game setting than what FR became over time.
Which is why Wizbros blew up FR in 4E. Wasn't the idea to not only provide an in game justification for changes to magic, new races, etc, but to kill off scads of NPCs and make lots of canon lore less important through the century leap? Cut off dozens of metaplot stories, age out hordes of NPCs, and wash whole regions clean of previous canon accretion.
Opinion seems divided about the results, but as WR noted, no product is going to make everybody happy.
YMMV
I get what you're saying. I don't think the Forgotten Realms is any less sandbox than Greyhawk. In terms of scale, especially the 1e/2e world of Faerun, it is huge. A creative DM can run a campaign from the low to high levels without bumping into anything cannon in the Realms. It just doesn't seem like it, because of all the sourcebooks that have been published in the nearly 30 years of the Forgotten Realms. Even when regions that were set aside like Sembia or the Wood of Sharp Teeth were developed, there is still vast space to create forgotten dungeons, castles, and kingdoms.
Greyhawk has had less detail and support, which some people like, while others don't.
There are entire Faerun continents that have never been explored. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2015 : 20:54:59
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| Most of the Feywild and Shadowfell have also never been explored. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2015 : 21:03:53
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I assume Wizbros called it Feywild because Faerie was not something that could be copyrighted. I still dislike the name.
But from the snippets I have seen, the actual material looks cool. Ditto the renamed Plane of Shadow stuff.
Names can be changed with ease.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 03:29:49
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| I know very little about Ravenloft, but I read the Vampire of the Mists, and loved it. I know the character, Jandar Sunstar, was also in a Realms anthology (and that some of the gods, like Lathander, are in Ravenloft). I would love to see more of this character, but he's really my only connection to Ravenloft lol. Vampire of the Mists is the only reason I know what Ravenloft is at all. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 03:33:04
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| I too would like a more detailed sourcebook(s) on the Realms. I wish the SCAG more closely resembled the older FRCGs, but it is better than nothing, and while it raises some questions, it answers others (albeit breiefly). It isn't great, but it isn't terrible, either. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 11:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I too would like a more detailed sourcebook(s) on the Realms. I wish the SCAG more closely resembled the older FRCGs, but it is better than nothing, and while it raises some questions, it answers others (albeit breiefly). It isn't great, but it isn't terrible, either.
This really isn't a good attitude to have because nothing will ever change. I hate the term "better than nothing" like that's supposed to be a good thing. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 16:31:48
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| But that's how I feel about the SCAG. It's better than nothing, because it's -something-. I would love a more detailed sourcebook, like the old CGs. But in my opinion, it's not terrible. It isn't great, and it left me wishing for more, but it isn't horrible. I hope to see something like a FRCG (one like the pre-4e), but that may or not happen. The SCAG answered some questions (briefly), and brought up more. I wanted more detail on the deities, but I probably won't get that. However, for me, it is better than nothing, because I was happy we were given those updates and that something was released at all. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 17:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I know very little about Ravenloft, but I read the Vampire of the Mists, and loved it. I know the character, Jandar Sunstar, was also in a Realms anthology (and that some of the gods, like Lathander, are in Ravenloft). I would love to see more of this character, but he's really my only connection to Ravenloft lol. Vampire of the Mists is the only reason I know what Ravenloft is at all.
I recall enjoying that one.
There are a few other FR elements in Ravenloft. For example, one of the darklords is a Red Wizard.
And as Ravenloft can claim people and even small countries from other prime planar worlds, there's nothing to stop a GM from bringing in more FR.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 17:33:17
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| And Gondegal the Lost King, after his failed attempt to make a kingdom centered on Arabel, was taken by the Mists and wound up in Ravenloft. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 19:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
But that's how I feel about the SCAG. It's better than nothing, because it's -something-. I would love a more detailed sourcebook, like the old CGs. But in my opinion, it's not terrible. It isn't great, and it left me wishing for more, but it isn't horrible. I hope to see something like a FRCG (one like the pre-4e), but that may or not happen. The SCAG answered some questions (briefly), and brought up more. I wanted more detail on the deities, but I probably won't get that. However, for me, it is better than nothing, because I was happy we were given those updates and that something was released at all.
It's sad how that's become the standard attitude. It's not just you CD, I've seen lots of people thinking the same thing. I would rather there be nothing, show Wizards how much we aren't settling for their scabby releases, and get them to produce more of what we actually want. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6372 Posts |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 21:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Gondegal the Lost King, after his failed attempt to make a kingdom centered on Arabel, was taken by the Mists and wound up in Ravenloft.
Yes , indeed.
Featured in the Black Box. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 22:18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
But that's how I feel about the SCAG. It's better than nothing, because it's -something-. I would love a more detailed sourcebook, like the old CGs. But in my opinion, it's not terrible. It isn't great, and it left me wishing for more, but it isn't horrible. I hope to see something like a FRCG (one like the pre-4e), but that may or not happen. The SCAG answered some questions (briefly), and brought up more. I wanted more detail on the deities, but I probably won't get that. However, for me, it is better than nothing, because I was happy we were given those updates and that something was released at all.
It's sad how that's become the standard attitude. It's not just you CD, I've seen lots of people thinking the same thing. I would rather there be nothing, show Wizards how much we aren't settling for their scabby releases, and get them to produce more of what we actually want.
Um... If people buy nothing at all, WotC will conclude there's no more money to be had in the setting and stop producing it. They'd likely keep Ed doing his token novel every year, just so they could sit on the IP and do nothing else with it.
I'd rather pay for something that's good but not great, as opposed to holding out for perfection and thus ensuring I get nothing at all. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 22:25:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
But that's how I feel about the SCAG. It's better than nothing, because it's -something-. I would love a more detailed sourcebook, like the old CGs. But in my opinion, it's not terrible. It isn't great, and it left me wishing for more, but it isn't horrible. I hope to see something like a FRCG (one like the pre-4e), but that may or not happen. The SCAG answered some questions (briefly), and brought up more. I wanted more detail on the deities, but I probably won't get that. However, for me, it is better than nothing, because I was happy we were given those updates and that something was released at all.
It's sad how that's become the standard attitude. It's not just you CD, I've seen lots of people thinking the same thing. I would rather there be nothing, show Wizards how much we aren't settling for their scabby releases, and get them to produce more of what we actually want.
Um... If people buy nothing at all, WotC will conclude there's no more money to be had in the setting and stop producing it. They'd likely keep Ed doing his token novel every year, just so they could sit on the IP and do nothing else with it.
I'd rather pay for something that's good but not great, as opposed to holding out for perfection and thus ensuring I get nothing at all.
Doubt that would happen. In my country, there is a big thing going on about multi national corporations such as Apple, Google, etc, paying little to no tax and the scare mongering issued by the government telling us that if we raise taxes then those companies will leave, even though the companies themselves have never stated it.
Sometimes you have to call their bluff because if you don't, they will continue to walk all over you.
Never settle for mediocre. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 22:38:40
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I am looking forward to a second Realms sourcebook.
WotC is still experimenting with their releases, so a second book may not be the same as the SCAG, which is fine with me as two Realms sourcebooks for 5E is better than one.
At some point WotC will shift their focus to another campaign world, leaving only the novels as a source of updates for the Realms. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 22:50:50
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| Hasbro would can the entire D&D line if all it did was lose money year after year. That's not a bluff, that's business. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 22:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I am looking forward to a second Realms sourcebook.
WotC is still experimenting with their releases, so a second book may not be the same as the SCAG, which is fine with me as two Realms sourcebooks for 5E is better than one.
At some point WotC will shift their focus to another campaign world, leaving only the novels as a source of updates for the Realms.
I would love to see an appendix added to future releases that detail NPCs in the old 2E stat-block type (class, level, high stats etc.) then a paragraph or two about the person in question. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2015 : 23:17:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Hasbro would can the entire D&D line if all it did was lose money year after year. That's not a bluff, that's business.
D&D has never lost money except around 2nd edition.
3rd edition and up was never a loss. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Chris Perkins on new Story Lines
Topic Locked
