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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 11:11:43
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After finishing The Herald I noticed that most epic wizards don'
t seem to actualy cast spells like normals wizards do but instead seem to just pull some raw magical energie together (out of the weave or other magical sources) and throw it at their enemies in one form or another. Do you think they got to a stage where they discovered a more efficient and fluent way of throwing magic instead of the usual wiggeling your hands, saying some words and put some spell components into it?
Or is it just a new writing style so that spellcasting sounds mightier and more fluent to compare to other media that doesn't use a complicated gaming magic system as a basis?
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1548 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 11:31:37
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| Does the wizard have Ignore Material Components or one of the Automatic <x metamagic> feats? There's your answer. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 11:53:50
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| Yeah but that would mean that everyone of them is a powerbuild with the exact same feats, which in games might be the case but in the "real world" is a bit unrealistic |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1548 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 12:09:34
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| Then it's just a quirk of Greenwood's writing, or the mages are just using quickened spells. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6372 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 16:22:46
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| Characters in books don't always follow the rules. And that's good, because plot and flavor should be a higher consideration than the Player's Handbook, especially since it'll be radically revamped in a few years, anyway. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Al2O3
Acolyte
Sweden
8 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 19:03:19
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| Is there any of the mages using the raw power of the weave who are not also a chosen of a deity connected to the control of the weave? I can't recall any, so I would say that it is probably a result of being a Chosen and also having had a few centuries to getting to know the weave. |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 23:12:43
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The fact of the matter is that Vancian Casting is kind of a crappt limitation on storytelling that even Jack Vance himself only used a few times, and never in the exact contexts that D&D does at all.
Magic will always just be "magic" to writers and they aren't gonna keep track of spells per level per day while actually writing fiction because it's a tremendous pain from a literary standpoint as anyone who writes regularly can tell you. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 05:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Characters in books don't always follow the rules. And that's good, because plot and flavor should be a higher consideration than the Player's Handbook, especially since it'll be radically revamped in a few years, anyway.
Ed, and most other FR authors have been writing since LONG before any rules systems about spell casting were established. For the most part, casting within novels is more like what the games describe as sorcery. They learn many spells and can cast them with rest but not a specific set of memorized spells.
Also for the most part, casting systems in books tend to ignore components. On rare occasions an author will take the time and page space to describe a component or two - but in general they just shorthand it to the actual spell. A book about archmages trading spells would become ridiculously boring if the writer decided we needed every verbal, somatic and material component described for every spell.
As far as translating this into the game zone, every casting system is described as optional. There have even been a number of works published offering alternatives - be it spell points or whatever. Even if you are using the standard memorization system, components are optional - its entirely up to you and your DM for whatever works best for your roleplaying experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Al2O3
Is there any of the mages using the raw power of the weave who are not also a chosen of a deity connected to the control of the weave? I can't recall any, so I would say that it is probably a result of being a Chosen and also having had a few centuries to getting to know the weave.
Elminster, some of the other Chosen, and the Srinshee fall into a group that Ed calls "Weave Masters" - they can do things with the Weave that others cannot. To the best of my knowledge Ed has never given any rules for this kind of Weave Casting, maintaining that he leaves it up to the roleplaying of the members of his campaigns.
If you go read through the Ask Ed scrolls (this will take you a month or two so be prepared) you will learn that Ed's home campaign with THO still uses 2nd Edition rules (something I highly recommend). I only mention it to point out that other things mentioned in this thread are not a part of that system. Things like "feats," "quickened spells," etc. do not exist therein. That kind of "metamagic" used to be handled with other spells, such as the "far reaching" series, and by unique abilities (for an example of this you can look to the description of Mystra in the Faiths and Avatars book which describes her ability to control damage and areas of effect).
Short answer is - you can do magic any way you want in your campaign, but whatever you choose, it will likely not be directly reflected in novels. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 08:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
The fact of the matter is that Vancian Casting is kind of a crappt limitation on storytelling that even Jack Vance himself only used a few times, and never in the exact contexts that D&D does at all.
Magic will always just be "magic" to writers and they aren't gonna keep track of spells per level per day while actually writing fiction because it's a tremendous pain from a literary standpoint as anyone who writes regularly can tell you.
That's not true though about FR books. Because there are a lot that actually describe the process of the mage learning their speels out of the spell book to make them ready and then casting them with the usual gestures and components. So the question still stands if this is just a "writing upgrade" of the novels or a power upgrade of those epic level mages. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 14:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
The fact of the matter is that Vancian Casting is kind of a crappt limitation on storytelling that even Jack Vance himself only used a few times, and never in the exact contexts that D&D does at all.
Magic will always just be "magic" to writers and they aren't gonna keep track of spells per level per day while actually writing fiction because it's a tremendous pain from a literary standpoint as anyone who writes regularly can tell you.
That's not true though about FR books. Because there are a lot that actually describe the process of the mage learning their speels out of the spell book to make them ready and then casting them with the usual gestures and components. So the question still stands if this is just a "writing upgrade" of the novels or a power upgrade of those epic level mages.
I kind of agree, especially when you read books written during 3e and 4e's time-frame. For example when an Author describes a wizard casting Magic Missile in a 3e-era book and they speak about 2, 3, of 4 bolts flying out we know approx. what "level" said person is based on that info (Caster Level, etc). Only one Author that I know, RAS, has been pretty distant when it comes to keeping within the rules of the setting / game. Drizzt has broken MANY "rules" to the point that what he's done has now becomes actual Options in certain books. For example he used Faerie Fire and Darkness a few times in one battle during A Lone Drow, something that wasn't possible during 3.0 ruleset. Low and behold, a feat in Drow of the Underdark comes out that allows you multiple uses of their Spell-Like Abilities. Drizzt isn't dazed when he's in sunlight and once again a feat in both the FRCS and PGtF have Daylight Adaptation that negates the sunlight's effect. Drizzt uses two heavy, one-handed weapons (Scimitars) yet the penalties for TWF with these two are STAGGERING in 3.0. So in v3.5 we get a feat in Complete Warrior called Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (thus allowing a PC to wield two one-handed weapon without penalty). Now maybe Drizzt isn't the reason behind these rules and the designers just figured it's a way to make more $$ but I find it very sketchy that they're created at all.... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 18:57:05
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| Creating rules, after the fact, for specific characters is something they've done since 2E... Though they've never flat-out stated that's what they were doing, it's happened to much for it to not be deliberate. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Nov 2015 18:57:31 |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2015 : 01:59:11
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
The fact of the matter is that Vancian Casting is kind of a crappt limitation on storytelling that even Jack Vance himself only used a few times, and never in the exact contexts that D&D does at all.
Magic will always just be "magic" to writers and they aren't gonna keep track of spells per level per day while actually writing fiction because it's a tremendous pain from a literary standpoint as anyone who writes regularly can tell you.
That's not true though about FR books. Because there are a lot that actually describe the process of the mage learning their speels out of the spell book to make them ready and then casting them with the usual gestures and components. So the question still stands if this is just a "writing upgrade" of the novels or a power upgrade of those epic level mages.
I bet you Donald Trump, Bill Gates, and Oprah Winfry's fortunes combined that the author never writes down the spells they know and spells per day they have, and even if they use signature spells from D&D they only run out of spells or do not have the right spells to cast exactly when the plot requires them to. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2015 : 03:27:22
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| The ONLY forgotten realms book I know of that was very specific about the memorization and use of magic was the one where El could not use his magic or he'd destroy the world because he was holding in Mystra's power :). This was very entertaining, btw. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2015 : 05:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
The fact of the matter is that Vancian Casting is kind of a crappt limitation on storytelling that even Jack Vance himself only used a few times, and never in the exact contexts that D&D does at all.
Magic will always just be "magic" to writers and they aren't gonna keep track of spells per level per day while actually writing fiction because it's a tremendous pain from a literary standpoint as anyone who writes regularly can tell you.
That's not true though about FR books. Because there are a lot that actually describe the process of the mage learning their speels out of the spell book to make them ready and then casting them with the usual gestures and components. So the question still stands if this is just a "writing upgrade" of the novels or a power upgrade of those epic level mages.
I bet you Donald Trump, Bill Gates, and Oprah Winfry's fortunes combined that the author never writes down the spells they know and spells per day they have, and even if they use signature spells from D&D they only run out of spells or do not have the right spells to cast exactly when the plot requires them to.
Well yes, I'm fairly certain no one is saying that the novels follow the rules exactly. But when magic is used, especially in novels in/around 3e and 4E eras, you can quite easily discern what spell that is in the rules. And I don't think I've ever read a FR novel where the spellcaster ran out of spells except, maybe, the first novel in the Knight's of Myth Drannor series where they all started out pretty amateur-ish anyways. Which is why I never gave ANY credence to the idea that the Realms Setting had to change because 4E rules changed. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2015 : 09:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
I bet you Donald Trump, Bill Gates, and Oprah Winfry's fortunes combined that the author never writes down the spells they know and spells per day they have, and even if they use signature spells from D&D they only run out of spells or do not have the right spells to cast exactly when the plot requires them to.
You are not getting the point. It's not about following the rules exactly but about how the act of spellcasting is described. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 21 Nov 2015 09:32:41 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2015 : 15:23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
I bet you Donald Trump, Bill Gates, and Oprah Winfry's fortunes combined that the author never writes down the spells they know and spells per day they have, and even if they use signature spells from D&D they only run out of spells or do not have the right spells to cast exactly when the plot requires them to.
You are not getting the point. It's not about following the rules exactly but about how the act of spellcasting is described.
You, Mr. Jarlaxle, are one of the biggest offenders! LOL. You use powerful wands and all manner of magical implements whenever you feel like it, despite not having any levels of wizard, sorceror, bard, etc. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11925 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2015 : 16:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
I bet you Donald Trump, Bill Gates, and Oprah Winfry's fortunes combined that the author never writes down the spells they know and spells per day they have, and even if they use signature spells from D&D they only run out of spells or do not have the right spells to cast exactly when the plot requires them to.
You are not getting the point. It's not about following the rules exactly but about how the act of spellcasting is described.
This is more of a recent thing. One of the things I used to love was reading Ed's combat scenes in which I could tell exactly what spells he was using and why. Hopefully things will go back more to normal. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2015 : 02:24:16
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| I liked that too - but I also loved how he'd throw in 3 or three new spell descriptions in a book and I'd be like - I never thought of a spell doing that before! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2448 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 11:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
The fact of the matter is that Vancian Casting is kind of a crappt limitation on storytelling that even Jack Vance himself only used a few times, and never in the exact contexts that D&D does at all.
Yup. Hence, boatload of ways to weaken or circumvent restrictions. From those Rary's spells to magical items, to SLA. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 16:25:37
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
The fact of the matter is that Vancian Casting is kind of a crappt limitation on storytelling that even Jack Vance himself only used a few times, and never in the exact contexts that D&D does at all.
Yup. Hence, boatload of ways to weaken or circumvent restrictions. From those Rary's spells to magical items, to SLA.
Well D&D could've used a different system but then people would start yelling about he it's not D&D or some junk. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2448 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2015 : 12:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well D&D could've used a different system but then people would start yelling about he it's not D&D or some junk.
I doubt there's any need to worry about that by now. 
Anyway, spell point magic systems (both "official" and fan-made) were here at least back in AD&D2. Though few of them were good.
However, it would take some overhaul for existing materials, and maybe even retcon of stories (ha, ha). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2015 : 13:43:59
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Novels are not games.
Expecting a close match up is a mistake,I think.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Is casting spells only a thing for low tier mages?
