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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 23:25:41
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Does anyone else find it weird that there's a god of invention and technology in what is essentially a technologically stagnant world? I know that Baldur's Gate has ended up with a sort of industrial revolution feel to it, what with mechanical cranes in the ports and prototype steam engines and the like ... but Faerūnians still use swords and wear chainmail and fire crossbows that are little different to the swords and chainmail and crossbows that adventurers recover from millennia-old ruins.
In that context, what do Gond and his followers actually do that is innovative? Why don't the Realms look more like Eberron by this point?
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 23:44:20
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My guess is there's no drive for it. You've got driftglobes, why mess with an early era electric or gas light bulb when magic does the same thing, but better? Why mess with powered flight when you can teleport? Why go through the process of making hand grenades when fire bolts and fireballs do the same thing, but using a tried and true method that's existed for centuries?
If dead magic were more prevalent, or if magic went completely dead for an extended period of time, there might be more demand. But as unstable as magic can be, it still bounces back fairly quickly. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:08:05
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| Gond's portfolio included more than just "technology." Smithing and craftsmanship were two important parts that could easily have tons of followers in Toril. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:20:23
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I agree with Delwa. On Earth, technology developed because there was a need that couldn't be met, or a huge benefit that couldn't be achieved, without it. The presence and accessibility of magic meets many of those needs and provides the benefits. Yes, it might be expensive to purchase the services of a spellcaster, but science is also expensive when you're starting from the bottom. By the time you spend the time designing and developing a network of other smart people who can help, and spend the money manufacturing the equipment, and then over and over again because progress involves a lot of refinement (and a lot of outright failure, actually) ... convert the time to money, and add it all up, and you'll probably find it cheaper to just save up and buy a spell. 
Or at least, that's the common perception, or the frustrated conclusion that most would-be inventors reach when they run into difficult riddles or prohibitive costs while trying to research something big.
The ones who show promise are recruited by the Gondar, and their greatest works are never shown to the rest of Faerun. It is, after all, in the church's best interests to control scientific breakthroughs and truly useful inventions.
I would hazard a guess that a working mechanical generator does exist, perhaps with a small-scale power grid, in a vault somewhere in/under a temple of Gond. More advanced firearms have been developed --gatling guns wouldn't surprise me at all, and I think something like the "Tesla" from Warehouse 13 is likely too-- but the church of Gond keeps these things extremely hush-hush. Like: hunt down and snuff out anyone who "leaks" the knowledge and anyone who learns anything from them. Such inventions are wildcards, and aces up figurative sleeves, for the eventuality that the Weave goes kaboom or all the powerful wizards blow themselves up in some stupid wizardwar, leaving the world powerless and in great need of what only the Gondar can provide. Those inventions are also potentially bargaining chips for when Toril inevitably experiences another wave of contact with advanced races from beyond Realmspace or even the Prime Material, who might be willing to trade secrets-for-secrets. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 16 Nov 2015 00:24:41 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I agree with Delwa. On Earth, technology developed because there was a need that couldn't be met, or a huge benefit that couldn't be achieved, without it. The presence and accessibility of magic meets many of those needs and provides the benefits. Yes, it might be expensive to purchase the services of a spellcaster, but science is also expensive when you're starting from the bottom. By the time you spend the time designing and developing a network of other smart people who can help, and spend the money manufacturing the equipment, and then over and over again because progress involves a lot of refinement (and a lot of outright failure, actually) ... convert the time to money, and add it all up, and you'll probably find it cheaper to just save up and buy a spell.
Or at least, that's the common perception, or the frustrated conclusion that most would-be inventors reach when they run into difficult riddles or prohibitive costs while trying to research something big.
IIRC Gond doesn't consider magic an impairment to technology, but a tool to enhance it. I wouldn't be surprised if, alongside ''traditional'' tech, some Gondars reasearched ways to cheaply produce magic devices (so, making magic even more readily accdessible to people, like some sort of magical technology). Or if some sects worked to use magic to engine wonderful, magic-powered devices (think of Halruaan skyships, or --to an extent-- Eberron-style magitech). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:40:48
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I am pretty sure that Faiths and Powers contains a myth about Titans, or maybe Giants, and the way the gods have suppressed various innovations in Faerun.
Gods did it does seem like a pluaisble explanation. It is certainly within their power. The big question for me is by so many gods would arbitrarily decide that gunpowder , moveable type, or whatever are things that need to be suppressed. It's kind of strange to think they really wish to keep Faerunians from developing various technologies, but do little or nothing to stop them from going gonzo with magic.
If I were running FR again, I might consider doing some retcon about tech and history.
One way to consider things is to look for a loose real world analogy and build from that.
The Inner Sea and nearby lands in 1 DR might have been the technological equivalent of the early Roman Empire. That lines up neatly with the 1300s and 1400s DR being Late Medieval in overall technology
The catastrophes that befell several of the lost civilizations no doubt caused dark ages and loss of knowledge. Not just loss of magical knowledge, but also technical and scientific lore. But overall, the distant past would be a lot less technologically advanced than contemporary Faerun's more sophisticated places.
Those ancient elf empires? They probably used flint arrowheads.
Another thing. To consider is that " progress" is not a given. A lot of Modern and Western people seem to assume that technology, science, religion, politics, etc must advance towards...something. But this is an odd way of looking at the world and doesn't really describe large chunks of history for many cultures.
FR history appears to be cyclic, not teological. It isn't advancing towards some goal. Capital P Progress isn't a thing. Empires rise and fall. Civilization develops and then releases into barbarism. Even the gods are subject to the great cycles of birth, death, and rebirth.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 16 Nov 2015 00:46:14 |
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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 05:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
My guess is there's no drive for it. You've got driftglobes, why mess with an early era electric or gas light bulb when magic does the same thing, but better? Why mess with powered flight when you can teleport? Why go through the process of making hand grenades when fire bolts and fireballs do the same thing, but using a tried and true method that's existed for centuries?
If dead magic were more prevalent, or if magic went completely dead for an extended period of time, there might be more demand. But as unstable as magic can be, it still bounces back fairly quickly.
Teleporting isn't something everyone can do. It's an extremely high-level spell and is quite expensive to use. And driftglobes aren't ubiquitous. Besides, Eberron uses magitech. That seems like an area you'd think the Gondar would explore. If magic is so prevalent that it stops anyone from bothering to come up with technology, then why aren't there magically powered cars instead of technologically powered ones? And so on.
I'm also not buying the argument that the Gondar are hiding all the inventions from the rest of Faerūn. Why then would they have a museum full of such things?
It just seems to me like they must invent things for the sake of inventing things without bothering to put most of them to practical use. If Baldur's Gate can have steam-driven cranes operating in its port, why can't there be other technological improvements?
It just strikes me as odd that there's this god that promotes innovation, yet his followers don't seem to have much to show for it. People are still using horses and carts, swords and bows, just like they were tens of thousands of years ago. |
Edited by - pukunui on 16 Nov 2015 05:15:55 |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 05:45:18
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quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
Does anyone else find it weird that there's a god of invention and technology in what is essentially a technologically stagnant world? I know that Baldur's Gate has ended up with a sort of industrial revolution feel to it, what with mechanical cranes in the ports and prototype steam engines and the like ... but Faerūnians still use swords and wear chainmail and fire crossbows that are little different to the swords and chainmail and crossbows that adventurers recover from millennia-old ruins.
In that context, what do Gond and his followers actually do that is innovative? Why don't the Realms look more like Eberron by this point?
Actually before 3e came along there were indications that Faerun was advancing along in it's technological advancement, though admittedly slower then in real life.
Arquebusiers were rare and valuable, but originally when mentioned they were NOT exclusive to Lantan and it mentioned wealthier armies on the Sword Coast and certain mercenary groups were keen on buying them and employing them in battle and actually had slowly begun to do so over time, suggesting the slow adoption of crude firearms, which wouldn't be setting inappropriate since in real life plate armor was actually invented in PART because less durable armor wasn't useful against firearms at all, but against the less advanced ones Europe had you could "bullet-proof" the steel against gunshot, which is in fact where the phrase "bulletproof armor" comes from; they'd test a cuirass against a gunshot and if it held it was bullet-proofed. Basically most folks are totally ignorant of the relationship between armored knights and guns and so assume when one was invented the other vanished ever though that was a 300 year process.
However when 3e came along all insinuations of technology very slowly advancing was sort of dropped in the switch from TSR to WotC for whatever reason.
In addition Faerun also had basically discovered the "New World" of Mazteca and Anochrome and were slowly colonizing it like we had long ago, though as I recall the process was a lot slower since Maztecans were not so unprepared for foreigners, having actual magic and deities protecting them at all. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 07:06:51
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quote:
Originally posted by BrylockActually before 3e came along there were indications that Faerun was advancing along in it's technological advancement, though admittedly slower then in real life.
Arquebusiers were rare and valuable, but originally when mentioned they were NOT exclusive to Lantan and it mentioned wealthier armies on the Sword Coast and certain mercenary groups were keen on buying them and employing them in battle and actually had slowly begun to do so over time ...
That's right! I'd forgotten about that. So it's WotC's fault that the setting has stagnated then. LOL. ;) |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 07:38:54
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| Theres a rather amsusing scene in one of the Gods books where Mystra gets Gond to craft a series of cages that could hold Cyrics Inquisitors but after hes done he wouldnt teleport back to his home plane while anyone was watching him because he didnt want anyone to see that he needed magic. |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 08:30:27
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quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
quote:
Originally posted by BrylockActually before 3e came along there were indications that Faerun was advancing along in it's technological advancement, though admittedly slower then in real life.
Arquebusiers were rare and valuable, but originally when mentioned they were NOT exclusive to Lantan and it mentioned wealthier armies on the Sword Coast and certain mercenary groups were keen on buying them and employing them in battle and actually had slowly begun to do so over time ...
That's right! I'd forgotten about that. So it's WotC's fault that the setting has stagnated then. LOL. ;)
In all fairness, that's the sort of process that would take centuries to happen anyway.
So if Faerun had by the 14th century DR only JUST started using basic firearms, then by perhaps only by 5e's 15th century DR would they finally start to be widespread enough that people outside Lantan would know what they are on sight, even if they've never seen or owned or used one. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 08:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
quote:
Originally posted by BrylockActually before 3e came along there were indications that Faerun was advancing along in it's technological advancement, though admittedly slower then in real life.
Arquebusiers were rare and valuable, but originally when mentioned they were NOT exclusive to Lantan and it mentioned wealthier armies on the Sword Coast and certain mercenary groups were keen on buying them and employing them in battle and actually had slowly begun to do so over time ...
That's right! I'd forgotten about that. So it's WotC's fault that the setting has stagnated then. LOL. ;)
In all fairness, that's the sort of process that would take centuries to happen anyway.
So if Faerun had by the 14th century DR only JUST started using basic firearms, then by perhaps only by 5e's 15th century DR would they finally start to be widespread enough that people outside Lantan would know what they are on sight, even if they've never seen or owned or used one.
Seeing as how Lantan had monopoly on Smokepowder and the whole island was destroyed during the spellplague there probably arent going to be many Smoke powder weapons around in the 5ed era |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 09:03:51
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Perhaps. Though, interestingly enough, the SCAG implies that Lantan wasn't destroyed - just magically transported elsewhere - although upon its return, it has become more magical and less technological.
Anyway, I'm not just talking about guns and things like that. I'm talking about all sorts of things. Why does everyone still use sailing ships? Why does everyone still use horse-drawn wagons? According to "Scourge of the Sword Coast", the Floshins have modern-sounding sinks and toilets in their manor, though they are powered by magic.
That being said, I'm fine with the Realms being technologically stagnant. It's a standard fantasy trope. It just makes the presence of a god like Gond seem out of place. It just makes me wonder what purpose he serves. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 09:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
Perhaps. Though, interestingly enough, the SCAG implies that Lantan wasn't destroyed - just magically transported elsewhere - although upon its return, it has become more magical and less technological.
Anyway, I'm not just talking about guns and things like that. I'm talking about all sorts of things. Why does everyone still use sailing ships? Why does everyone still use horse-drawn wagons? According to "Scourge of the Sword Coast", the Floshins have modern-sounding sinks and toilets in their manor, though they are powered by magic.
That being said, I'm fine with the Realms being technologically stagnant. It's a standard fantasy trope. It just makes the presence of a god like Gond seem out of place. It just makes me wonder what purpose he serves.
If thats the case theyve changed it because unlike Halurra/Mulhorand/Unther which disappeeared Lantan was drowned like Jhaamdath and the 4ed FR make reference to rogue automations running around underwater where Lantan used to be.
There was a Duegar in one of the WOSQ novels who used Undead rowers to power his ship around an underground lake. A more interesting question is does Coal actually exist in the Forgotten realms? if it doesnt then becomes alot harder to have an "Industrial revolution" |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 12:26:09
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Isn't coal a trade item on some of the tables and charts?
Anyway, it would seem strange not to have coal.
Steam powered mechanical constructs exist in Zakhara. They are quite rare. (Sha'ir's Handbook). I will have to check as to whether they use wood , coal, or something else.
Mulhorand used to have some kind of " steam engines" as per Old Empires, although I imagine those were like the aelopile of Hero, nothing like a Newcommen machine, much less Watt's engine.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 20:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If thats the case theyve changed it because unlike Halurra/Mulhorand/Unther which disappeeared Lantan was drowned like Jhaamdath and the 4ed FR make reference to rogue automations running around underwater where Lantan used to be.
"I had not visited Lantan for over a year when it happened, but the way most tell it, when magic failed utterly in this place, all the stored smokepowder and magical gewgaws in Lantan exploded, one by one, just as great waves washed over the island. Within a terrifyingly short time, Lantan was no more.
Or so the stories of survivors went. It appears now that Lantan was transferred to another world, much like Halruaa. Halruaa, though, had foreseen the calamity and taken time to prepare. Lantan was not so lucky." (SCAG, pg 71) |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 21:57:41
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| For my Gond is god of Wonders mainly so he have museum full of trinkets just to amaze people. I kind of agree that he would actualy hide some inventions to control progress. He is Lawful diety (in my take) with domain in Mechanus plane. So this sort of places technology into battle of Chaos vs Law. That could be a reason for slow advance in inovation of technology. |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 22:06:37
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I have Gondian temples and acolytes have access to examples of much more impressive technology then the rest of Faerun, at least when I last used them a few days ago. The reason their technology isn't widespread is because it's expensive and complex (two things that limit the spread of technology more then anything else in real life), but they give the impression of science slowly catching up to magic in areas like engineering and architecture and physics and such, though I portrayed Lantanese technology as being way in advance of that with fairly advanced clockwork technology.
As to why tech didn't advance much in the past century of the Realms, I generally point out that had a hundred years ago a couple of near-apocalyptic cataclysms like the Spellplague and Returned Abeir plopping into Toril out of nowhere and hugs chunks of the continent just up and carving themselves out of nowhere and all the massive and extremely sudden social upheavals most areas went through during the 4e timeline kind of set back technology a bit.
Actually, there's SEVERAL apocalyptic-level events that nearly wipe out high-level civilization in history; Netheril's Fall, The Orcgate Wars, Myth Drannor exploding umpteen times, the Time of Troubles, etc.
It's pretty hard to get anything done when every decade or so everything explodes I imagine. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 22:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If thats the case theyve changed it because unlike Halurra/Mulhorand/Unther which disappeeared Lantan was drowned like Jhaamdath and the 4ed FR make reference to rogue automations running around underwater where Lantan used to be.
"I had not visited Lantan for over a year when it happened, but the way most tell it, when magic failed utterly in this place, all the stored smokepowder and magical gewgaws in Lantan exploded, one by one, just as great waves washed over the island. Within a terrifyingly short time, Lantan was no more.
Or so the stories of survivors went. It appears now that Lantan was transferred to another world, much like Halruaa. Halruaa, though, had foreseen the calamity and taken time to prepare. Lantan was not so lucky." (SCAG, pg 71)
Wrath of the Luddite Game Designers?
:)
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 22:41:44
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quote:
It's pretty hard to get anything done when every decade or so everything explodes I imagine.
Edition changes are rough on civilization, yup.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Gond
