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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 02:53:08
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Since in the past I've noticed people complain about how many merchant nations thier are, I thought I thought I'd explore the number of nations under a particular type of government.
Magecracies 3- Nimbral, Halruua, Thay, unoffically Rasheman.
Theocracies 3+- Mulhorand, Unther, Eltgurd, Erebos, Lutheqie, most drow cities.
Mechantcracies- Sembia, Amn, Westgate, Vesper.
Monarchies- Hartsvale, Cormyr, Tethyr, Calimshan, Evermeet, Ulgan, Moonshaes, Sarifal, offically Rasheman.
Noblocracy (ruled by Monarchless nobles)- Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter.
Democracy- Turmish.
ElderBraincracy- Most Illthid cities.
Dragonocracy- Murghom.
I know I left out plenty, so any suggestions would be good.
So far Monarchies seem to be the most common, not Mechant rule nations.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 02:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Since in the past I've noticed people complain about how many merchant nations thier are, I thought I thought I'd explore the number of nations under a particular type of government.
Magecracies 3- Nimbral, Halruua, Thay, unoffically Rasheman.
Theocracies 3+- Mulhorand, Unther, Eltgurd, Erebos, Lutheqie, most drow cities.
Mechantcracies- Sembia, Amn, Westgate, Vesper.
Monarchies- Hartsvale, Cormyr, Tethyr, Calimshan, Evermeet, Ulgan, Moonshaes, Sarifal, offically Rasheman.
Noblocracy (ruled by Monarchless nobles)- Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter.
Democracy- Turmish, Featherdale, Triboar.
ElderBraincracy- Most Illthid cities.
Dragonocracy- Murghom.
I know I left out plenty, so any suggestions would be good.
So far Monarchies seem to be the most common, not Mechant rule nations.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 03:10:10
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A simple word does not always work, for example Menzoberranzan has a ruling council of eight most powerful houses. In theory not all need to follow Lolth or for that matter any other deity. Though clearly a matriarchal leadership and control of government.
A rule of power clearly is what exists based on what the people accept and the leaders require. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 03:14:49
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| Thay seems more like a form of despotism to me. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 03:52:40
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Impiltur is a monarchy.
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Edited by - Swordsage on 14 Nov 2015 04:12:35 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 08:04:05
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| Doesn't Waterdeep count as an oligarchy? As does Menzoberranzan technically (though I'd still call it a theocracy). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 09:41:14
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Here's the categories slightly switched around. I don't know all these places in detail though:
Magocracies (1-3): Nimbral, probably Halruaa, unofficially Rashemen
Despotic Dictatorships (1-2): Thay (slowly moving towards a magocratic oligarchy), Murghom?
Dictatorial Theocracies (2): Unther, Eltgurd
Dictatorial Monarchies (6-7): Hartsvale, Cormyr, Evermeet, Ulgan, Moonshaes, Sarifal, offically Rasheman
Theocratic Oligarchies? (0-3): Mulhorand, Erebos, Lutheqie
Noble Oligarchies (4-???): Menzoberranzan, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Most Illthid cities?
Mercentile Oligarchies (4): Sembia, Amn, Westgate, Vesper
Anarchies (0-1): Calimshan?
So noble nations make up 44% of the listed governments with traditional monarchies only making up 28% of the listed governments. Wasn't there a different thread about this a few years ago? |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
Edited by - JohnLynch on 14 Nov 2015 09:45:05 |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 10:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Since in the past I've noticed people complain about how many merchant nations thier are, I thought I thought I'd explore the number of nations under a particular type of government.
Magecracies 3- Nimbral, Halruua, Thay, unoffically Rasheman.
Theocracies 3+- Mulhorand, Unther, Eltgurd, Erebos, Lutheqie, most drow cities.
Mechantcracies- Sembia, Amn, Westgate, Vesper.
Monarchies- Hartsvale, Cormyr, Tethyr, Calimshan, Evermeet, Ulgan, Moonshaes, Sarifal, offically Rasheman.
Noblocracy (ruled by Monarchless nobles)- Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter.
Democracy- Turmish.
ElderBraincracy- Most Illthid cities.
Dragonocracy- Murghom.
I know I left out plenty, so any suggestions would be good.
So far Monarchies seem to be the most common, not Mechant rule nations.
You gotta work on your knowledge of political termology man.
Sembia, Amn, Westgate, and Vesper are Plutocracies (rule by a small subset of the wealthiest and most powerful citizens).
Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter are Heriditary Oligarchies (power rests within the small subset of people who inherit their political power based on birth), but actually neither Baldur's Gate (who has a chief of state in the form of the Grand Duke) or Neverwinter (who also has a head nobleman who is not named a king but IS the ennobled head of state) even fit the term. Baldur's Gate is a Constintutional Herditary Oligarchy (their head ruler is not a Monarch but is an elected official only elected from the ranks of the existing oligarchs), and Neverwinter is basically a straight a Monarchy without even the pretense of anything else since the seat is nominally inherited from parent to child when things are functioning normally. He's not a King, but King is a title, not a Monarch (though most Kings ARE Monarchs, a lot in history actually weren't).
Amusingly, I think TECHNICALLY Illithids count as a Representative Democracy (the model of government the United States employs), as each Elder Brain is really a bunch of wisest and oldest Illithid brains who then merge and come to a consensus on subjects as a unique hive-intelligence; think of the brains as elected officials and the Elder Brain itself as the governing body.
I suppose Murghom is technically a form of Oligarchy, but given that it's based around species-lines I think Draconocracy is a decently correct term. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
Edited by - Brylock on 14 Nov 2015 11:01:36 |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 11:08:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A simple word does not always work, for example Menzoberranzan has a ruling council of eight most powerful houses. In theory not all need to follow Lolth or for that matter any other deity. Though clearly a matriarchal leadership and control of government.
A rule of power clearly is what exists based on what the people accept and the leaders require.
Menzoberranzan (and thus most drow cities as it's effectively a blueprint for every one created after it) is a Hereditary Oligarchy, with power derived along family lines and limited to noble houses with limited ways to advance in social rank without marrying or associating with said noble houses.
If it was a Theocracy then any priestess of Lolth would be equal to any other priestess of similar rank, but we've seen obvious deference to clerics from noble family lines who are actively put in charge far more often, so a clear favoritism existing outside Lolth's cult is there and is an underlying aspect of drow society.
Honestly, a purely Theocratic government would likely be less tumultuous and back-stabber-ey as drow culture is as the ruling caste is far more strictly defined, and since Lolth seems to really get off on treating her people like a sociopath with an ant farm who makes her ants kill each other, I'm guessing she likes it that her cult is not completely in control all the time so they can spend more time plotting and murdering each other in their little holes in the ground. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 11:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
Here's the categories slightly switched around. I don't know all these places in detail though:
Magocracies (1-3): Nimbral, probably Halruaa, unofficially Rashemen
Despotic Dictatorships (1-2): Thay (slowly moving towards a magocratic oligarchy), Murghom?
Dictatorial Theocracies (2): Unther, Eltgurd
Dictatorial Monarchies (6-7): Hartsvale, Cormyr, Evermeet, Ulgan, Moonshaes, Sarifal, offically Rasheman
Theocratic Oligarchies? (0-3): Mulhorand, Erebos, Lutheqie
Noble Oligarchies (4-???): Menzoberranzan, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Most Illthid cities?
Mercentile Oligarchies (4): Sembia, Amn, Westgate, Vesper
Anarchies (0-1): Calimshan?
So noble nations make up 44% of the listed governments with traditional monarchies only making up 28% of the listed governments. Wasn't there a different thread about this a few years ago?
I've noticed that Faerun in general has a heavy resistance to strong centralized Monarchial systems of government that reach beyond the city-state level, with Damara, Cormyr, and Impiltur being the notable exceptions to the rule. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 15:32:15
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Waterdeep's rulers are not hereditary, they are not all nobles, and they are not all wealthy and powerful -- Nindal Jalbuck was a shopkeep, Kyriani's only income was the inn that she was given, Brian the Swordmaster was a smith, and there were two paladins.
If anything, Waterdeep's government is a meritocracy: the Lords choose new Lords based on their abilities and what they bring to the table. Of course, the fact that the Lords are hidden also makes it a cryptocracy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Nov 2015 15:36:01 |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 18:19:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Waterdeep's rulers are not hereditary, they are not all nobles, and they are not all wealthy and powerful -- Nindal Jalbuck was a shopkeep, Kyriani's only income was the inn that she was given, Brian the Swordmaster was a smith, and there were two paladins.
If anything, Waterdeep's government is a meritocracy: the Lords choose new Lords based on their abilities and what they bring to the table. Of course, the fact that the Lords are hidden also makes it a cryptocracy.
I was speaking more of the 72 (or however many that number is) hereditary noble families of Waterdeep that are responsible for nearly all of the actual running of the city, including really important things like the city guard and trade rather then the Hidden Lords, since I'm not actually sure what the Hidden Lord's actual administrative duties are beyond overseeing executions and of course plotting against and with each other so much that they have an old board game based off of their antics. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 18:23:32
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Faerun seems to be chock full of republics.
All those " merchant " ruled places? Republics where the franchise is tied to wealth rather than noble birth.
All those " noble" ruled cities without princes? Aristocratic republics,where franchise is tied to family origin.
Obviously I am simplifying things here, but I do think the general pattern describes large parts of Faerun well.
One could also describe most of these governments as oligarchies, but that is not in conflict with also being republics.
Principalities also exist. Cormyr is maybe the best example of a hereditary monarchy.
Is Zhentil Keep a principality under the rule of Lord Chess?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 20:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Waterdeep's rulers are not hereditary, they are not all nobles, and they are not all wealthy and powerful -- Nindal Jalbuck was a shopkeep, Kyriani's only income was the inn that she was given, Brian the Swordmaster was a smith, and there were two paladins.
If anything, Waterdeep's government is a meritocracy: the Lords choose new Lords based on their abilities and what they bring to the table. Of course, the fact that the Lords are hidden also makes it a cryptocracy.
I was speaking more of the 72 (or however many that number is) hereditary noble families of Waterdeep that are responsible for nearly all of the actual running of the city, including really important things like the city guard and trade rather then the Hidden Lords, since I'm not actually sure what the Hidden Lord's actual administrative duties are beyond overseeing executions and of course plotting against and with each other so much that they have an old board game based off of their antics.
The noble families run their own concerns, not the city. They have more influence than commoners, but it's the Hidden Lords that pass laws and select judges, senior officers, palace officials, and the like.
For the most part, the Lords work together, not against each other. The Lords of Waterdeep boardgame has about as much to do with the way the Lords rule as Monopoly does with real-world real estate. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Nov 2015 20:13:00 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 20:35:08
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Too bad, as masked lords conspiring against one another sounds like fun.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:36:53
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I still day menz is a Theocracy, its 100% run by clerics, yes these clerics are organized by noble houses are run by clerics. Lolth and her clerics run the government, that seems like a Theocracy to me. The rest is just how Lolth decides to organize her Theocracy.
As for Mulhorand I a weird though, but what if they're really a Polytheocractic democracy.
People vote by focusing the largest share of thier worship on a particular Mulhorand Deity, and as such the God's influence in Mulhorand increases.
Priesthoods in Mulhorand competed traditional amoung each other for power,would that include primacy of worship for thier Gods.
So Priesthood would be like political parties, with the Gods themselves acting as leaders of said parties, but they lead said party for eternity. And as a Gods popular rises so does thier influence and as said popularity falls so does said influence.
Does anyone get what I'm saying?
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I still day menz is a Theocracy, its 100% run by clerics, yes these clerics are organized by noble houses are run by clerics. Lolth and her clerics run the government, that seems like a Theocracy to me. The rest is just how Lolth decides to organize her Theocracy.
As for Mulhorand I a weird though, but what if they're really a Polytheocractic democracy.
People vote by focusing the largest share of thier worship on a particular Mulhorand Deity, and as such the God's influence in Mulhorand increases.
Priesthoods in Mulhorand competed traditional amoung each other for power,would that include primacy of worship for thier Gods.
So Priesthood would be like political parties, with the Gods themselves acting as leaders of said parties, but they lead said party for eternity. And as a Gods popular rises so does thier influence and as said popularity falls so does said influence.
Does anyone get what I'm saying?
Yaassssssssss!
That makes the temple slavery into an unusual form of socialism.
I really like your take on Mulhorand.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 00:51:23
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| Don't blame me. I voted for Set! |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2015 : 02:07:21
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One thing I found weird is the Chaotic Good Deity Anhur has Tiefling descendants, his offspring and his servants were Aasimar. I'd guess that Anhur's desendants intermixed with Tieflings at some point.
Of course this could mean Aasimar desendants of Set or Sebek which is interesting too. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2015 : 02:45:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
One thing I found weird is the Chaotic Good Deity Anhur has Tiefling descendants, his offspring and his servants were Aasimar. I'd guess that Anhur's desendants intermixed with Tieflings at some point.
Of course this could mean Aasimar desendants of Set or Sebek which is interesting too.
The Planescapification of FR seems to have happened mainly in the 3E era, so I am not as familiar with how these elements were introduced.
It does make sense, though, given the interlinked worlds and planes stuff that is such a big part of FR history.
As for Anhur's descendants, might that have mixed with the sons and daughters of Set, as you seem to suggest? Do these lineages practice some kind of endogamy, or do they mix more freely than that? |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2015 : 04:38:20
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No I believe in fact that descendants of the Mulhorand and Unther Gods could be found not just in Mulhorand and Unther, but in the surrounding nations as well, and that was before the spellplague.
In fact that Anhuran Tieflings might not get thier Tiefling side from a Mulhorand God at all, maybe an Anhur Assimar married an Asmodean Tiefling and and some of the childern were Tieflings, we have no way to know.
In fact I suspect that Anhur was included in the Tiefling section as a back handed way of suggesting how to handle Aasimar in Mulhorand. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2015 : 20:33:03
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quote:
Gyor
ElderBraincracy- Most Illthid cities.
Dragonocracy- Murghom.
"ElderBraincracy" is a clumsy term. I would propose illithocracy. Better yet, illitharchy. (Imagine a political party of illithocrats!)
Although illithids are so telepathically interconnected and interdependent (through their brain pools) that they don't really have any sort of government we could readily comprehend - they are functionally a unified entity which discourages individuality and relentlessly destroys any deviants. They could arguably even be categorized as a theocracy, given their implicit worship of Ilsensine.
"Dragonocracy" is also amateurish. It is draconian. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2015 20:37:47 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2015 : 10:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Thay seems more like a form of despotism to me.
Or…. in the spirit of this thread…. Thay is a Lichocracy.  |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2015 : 10:38:26
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Actually, several of the "small towns" that I'm creating for my 5e Sword Coast campaign are actually…. vassals or protectorates. Yes, the semi-independent small towns (typical populations less than 3000) are usually vassals to larger cities like Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate. Especially if these small towns are located within 100 miles of a large metropolis like Waterdeep. Hence, they are ruled by either a Mayor or Town Master who happens to govern on behalf of a large powerful city like Baldurs or Waterdeep.
So I'm not sure what to label the "government type" of these small towns which have vassal/protectorate status.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2015 : 10:51:06
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Actually, several of the "small towns" that I'm creating for my 5e Sword Coast campaign are actually…. vassals or protectorates. Yes, the semi-independent small towns (typical populations less than 3000) are usually vassals to larger cities like Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate. Especially if these small towns are located within 100 miles of a large metropolis like Waterdeep. Hence, they are ruled by either a Mayor or Town Master who happens to govern on behalf of a large powerful city like Baldurs or Waterdeep.
So I'm not sure what to label the "government type" of these small towns which have vassal/protectorate status.
It still depends on the local government. If Waterdeep, for example, always picks the best and brightest to rule a vassal city, that city is still a meritocracy -- so you'd call it a vassal meritocracy, or maybe a dependent meritocracy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2015 : 11:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It still depends on the local government. If Waterdeep, for example, always picks the best and brightest to rule a vassal city, that city is still a meritocracy -- so you'd call it a vassal meritocracy, or maybe a dependent meritocracy.
That's sensible. I could just give them labels like:
Amberton
Government type: Meritocracy (Protectorate of Baldur's Gate)
Highpass Hold
Government type: Oligarchy (Vassal of Waterdeep)
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Forms of Government
