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 Elves and their swords
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Ocule
Acolyte

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2015 :  19:52:40  Show Profile Send Ocule a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Why are longswords elven weapons? Its weird that they cannot be used with dexterity or that its iconic to elves considering they aren't actually that good at using them.

I'd like to know how the longsword is tied into their culture which i can't really find a real reason for.

I was kicking around the idea for 5e D&D of a fighting style or feat that allowed for two things:

*Using dexterity for attack and damage with a longsword

*Using dexterity + intellect +10 for determining armor class.

So any idea on why swords are so popular with the elves and ways to show this in actual games? Giving them proficiency with longswords alone doesn't really feel like it showcases the elves iconic weapon.

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3807 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2015 :  21:17:44  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Treating elven longswords as rapiers rulewise would be a simple step to fix your problem.

Bladesong style adds Int to AC, but that's a very specific fighting style. You could use the monks as reference for your style, using int instead of wis, but allowing for no armor (or are monks allowed to use light armors in 5e?).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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eeorey
Seeker

Bulgaria
96 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2015 :  22:25:18  Show Profile Send eeorey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the stuff I've read so far elven swords are indeed of the more slender variety (the most obvious example was the sword of the elven prince from the Cleric Quintet) and I agree with using them as rapiers rule-wise being suitable.
The longsword itself being so widespread it's really far from inconceivable that an elf take a liking to one. However the longer thicker variety (Chondathan steelsword from races of Faerun is described as a heavy sword used to overpower the enemy's weapon) seems to be more of a universal human thing, it's a sword it reliable and flexible in it's usage so it fits humans really well.
You can make your own separate weapon - "Elven" longsword and perhaps make it a piercing weapon (In my opinion a sword should be considered able to perform both a piercing and slashing attack to underline it's versatility, hell if you search up "murderstroke" you can see that it was used historically as a bludgeoning one as well).
As to how it ties up with elven culture - the leader of Myth Drannor was literally chosen by a sword (excalibur style almost), there are traditions of hereditary magical swords (Moonblades, see Elaine Cunningham's novels) which are quite a big deal to the elves, though these swords if I remember correctly can change their shape to fit the wielder's style.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4692 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2015 :  22:39:35  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule

Why are longswords elven weapons? Its weird that they cannot be used with dexterity or that its iconic to elves considering they aren't actually that good at using them.

I'd like to know how the longsword is tied into their culture which i can't really find a real reason for.





Well D&D was based on novels and legends on explaining elves. On source clearly was Lord of the Rings.

A quick search yielded this site: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Elven_Weapons_and_Armour when searching for "elves and swords" which is a LOTR wikia, and it offers this.

quote:
Throughout their existence, Elves have been masters of making and using weapons and arms. Their skill at forging weapons and armour surpasses the race of Man, but of the race of Dwarves, Tolkien writes: "In the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail [...] their work had no rival."

Even more renowned is the Elven skill at using their fine weapons, be it bow or blade.


Thus it would appear it is a core concert that Elves were sword users for many years before D&D existed and as such became a core attribute of the race or class of elves.

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2449 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2015 :  07:58:00  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right. Inspiration-wise, I think it goes right back to Glamdring and Orcrist from the Hobbit. They're elven long swords, explicitly said to be ancient, and the two mightiest weapons in the entire book. While D&D elves aren't direct clones of Tolkien's elves, there's clearly a great deal of influence, and in Middle Earth there is a close connection between elves and swords.

From an Earth historical perspective, a long sword was for a long while both the height of foot soldier weapons technology, and incredibly expensive. They were weapons for nobles and war leaders. Most soldiers used axes or spears, since they were much cheaper and faster to make. Many early swords were also pattern welded, which gave them a gorgeous ripple pattern, so they were also works of art.

Put it all together, and by giving elves an affinity for long swords D&D is subtly indicating that they are an old, rich, and technologically advanced civilization, while nodding towards their pop culture roots.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2015 :  13:39:45  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all elves are purely dextrous warriors. Fflar Starbrow Melruth, Zaor Moonflower, Eltargrim Irithyl are examples of elves favoring strength based training and fighting stances. Its natural that elven culture would want to make swords that enable such warriors to train twohanded longsword techniques. This would lead to developement of a heavy and long 'cut and thrust' blade balanced for powerful slashes capabale of opening wounds on though scales, hides and through armor. The ornate crossguard would probably allow long fingered elven swordmasters to change grips with ease, for example going from a single handed firm grasp with a forefinger around the cross, to a two handed 'back of the blade' assisted draw-cut fluidly. The hilts would be more oval and elongated, allowing for two long fingered elven hands to leverage more power from the blade. This make it the D&D versatile longsword.

Not only elven heroes are strength based warriors. Most rank and file elven warriors carry chainmail, requiring considerable strength to wear for longer stretches. Moreover they too carry spears, a weapon that requires their strength as well. So in times of war elves bring their weapons of war aswell, and these include their excellently crafted longsword sidearms.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36845 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2015 :  14:55:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On a related note, I've never understood what the heck a "thinblade" was supposed to be. I've always thought it was kind of a "hey, let's give elves something different!" thing, more than an in-game representation of an actual existing weapon. I've read the description; I've just not understood how "thinner longsword with a point" was so different from a regular longsword as to merit a separate listing.

On another related note, the elven weapon I've always liked best was from Ed's pen, on pages 78-9 of SJR1 Lost Ships (keep in mind, this is from 2E, before later editions that had the "one size fits all and remove all wonder" approach to magical items):

quote:
Gemsword: These very rare, ancient long swords were devised by the earliest spacefaring elves. Over the ages, the secrets of making and repairing them have been lost. Only the Arcane and certain archmages know how to recharge them.
Gemswords are +4 weapons of electric-blue metal (a very fine sort of steel). Slim and bejeweled, with ornate twisted and curlicued hilts, they are beautiful to behold, and prized by all spacefarers.
Gemswords constantly gather light energy from nearby sources, and once per day (a 144-turn period) can be commanded to make a power strike.
A power strike requires a to-hit roll (if failed, the blade flashes with light, loosing its stored energy harmlessly). Upon hitting, it deals 1 hull point of damage to a ship, or 3d4 damage to an individual. A being must also save against Breath Weapon or be confused (as the fourth-level wizard spell) for 12 rounds.
Each such sword has several show gems (i.e., gemstones that are only decorative, although they may be very valuable), but it may have one, two, or three power stones. These blue-green gems, of unknown origin, are able to hold magical energies within them. Identifiable by their cut, they can hold the following spells:
Cabochon: regenerate when grasped and ordered, as the seventh-level priest spell, but affecting only one creature touching the blade (up to 7 charges);
Crown-cut: lightning bolt from the tip of the blade, as the third-level wizard spell, with a range of 222‘ and dealing 7d6 damage (up to 3 charges);
Square-cut: teleport without error when grasped and ordered (affecting the sword-wielder and up to two other beings of medium size or less, or one large size being plus the wielder, who also touch the blade at the time) from some place to another solid object of known location within a sphere, but not from one sphere to another (up to four charges).
Each charge equals one spell, called forth by mental command of the wielder, who is always aware of what the sword can do, in rough physical terms, and how many charges it has (magical ability not needed).
Recharging such swords is known to involve the casting of the spells they hold, but the process (and associated spells) remain secret. PCs will have to research their own (DMs may also wish to devise other gemcut/spell combinations).
XP Value: Unknown (method of making not discernible to PCs)


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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Oct 2015 14:58:30
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  14:57:33  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
These gemswords are always +4 and don't lose this enchantment when they run out of charges, right? The power strike is also independent of charges and kept after the charges are spent?

As for the OP, in the Elves of Evermeet sourcebook it seems the author judged broad swords to be the elven weapons, for most of the sword references there are for broad swords. Considering broad sword can be a term for two-bladed long swords with a broad blade (similar to a viking blade, for example), I think this was the case.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36845 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  15:58:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

These gemswords are always +4 and don't lose this enchantment when they run out of charges, right? The power strike is also independent of charges and kept after the charges are spent?




So it appears -- from the description, the charges are specifically for the spells stored in the gemstones.

If these items were revamped for a later edition, I'm not aware of it. I'm inclined to think they weren't, given that they appeared in a Spelljammer book and WotC did its best to ignore Spelljammer (even making the bizarre maneuver of introducing groundling neogi and saying "these guys are usually in flying ships, but even though flying ships are far more interesting, we're ignoring that to make them regular sea-faring pirate-types").

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Oct 2015 16:02:53
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  11:26:03  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So it appears -- from the description, the charges are specifically for the spells stored in the gemstones.


Nice, thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) WotC did its best to ignore Spelljammer (even making the bizarre maneuver of introducing groundling neogi and saying "these guys are usually in flying ships, but even though flying ships are far more interesting, we're ignoring that to make them regular sea-faring pirate-types").



"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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