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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 13:53:34
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Are there any other NAMED psionicists in the Realms who even come close to Kimmuriel's mastery of the art?
*Edit-added "NAMED" to the original post to help clarify things. Posting that a certain race of creatures are powerful psionicists doesn't really help much.
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 07 Aug 2015 15:56:29
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 14:30:11
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| He may be the most powerful Drow psionicist, but I'm sure there are some Mindflayers or Aboleths the could challenge and maybe surpass him. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 14:44:02
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| The last ruler of Jhaamdath wasnt apparently an exstremely powerful Psioncist (although obviously hes dead)Elminster in 1st edition Realms had psionics as well |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 15:02:06
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I think it's more like, Kimmuriel Oblodra is the most powerful known drow psionicist, and that's more by virtue of his house being wiped out. The Oblodras, to my knowledge, were the only drow house capable of psionics, and when it was destroyed during the Time of Troubles, there were survivors other than Kimmuriel, but they fled into the Underdark and no one knows of their existence.
I honestly doubt that he'd stand much of a chance against creatures like illithids and aboleths. I really don't think he's to psionicists as Elminster is to wizards of the Forgotten Realms. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 07 Aug 2015 15:03:48 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 15:15:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I honestly doubt that he'd stand much of a chance against creatures like illithids and aboleths. I really don't think he's to psionicists as Elminster is to wizards of the Forgotten Realms.
Kimmuriel communes with Illithid hive-minds on a regular basis. I doubt they invite just anyone to those parties. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 15:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Kimmuriel communes with Illithid hive-minds on a regular basis. I doubt they invite just anyone to those parties.
You're correct, but your statement doesn't prove that Kimmuriel is the most powerful psionicist in the realms. Keep in mind that other illithids also communicate with their hive-minds. Furthermore, while aboleths are at least as powerful as illithids, the illithids and aboleths hate each other, so it's not like the illithids would invite their enemies to communicate with their hive-minds either. That, however, doesn't say anything about the aboleths' psionic prowess, except perhaps that it must be formidable indeed for the illithids to consider them worthwhile enough to be a rival. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 15:57:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The last ruler of Jhaamdath wasnt apparently an exstremely powerful Psioncist (although obviously hes dead)Elminster in 1st edition Realms had psionics as well
Meh, Elminster was also a fighter, thief, etc ... but I'd never consider him to be among the most powerful or skilled of those classes. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:07:02
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Methinks Matron K'yorl Odran of House Oblodra could take him.
She sabotaged Matron Yvonnel Baenre's would-be third-son sacrifice ceremony (Road of the Patriarch). |
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--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Methinks Matron K'yorl Odran of House Oblodra could take him.
She sabotaged Matron Yvonnel Baenre's would-be third-son sacrifice ceremony (Road of the Patriarch).
Well, she's dead currently, although Bob did hint that we haven't seen the last of her. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
He may be the most powerful Drow psionicist
...after extermination of his former House.
Which was rare indeed. According to AD&D2 lore, it's somewhat harder for magical creatures to use psionic powers (had reduced chance of wild talents).
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Elminster in 1st edition Realms had psionics as well
Wild talent (See Magic)? |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:19:47
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I think that Kimmuriel just seems to be the most powerful because he's practically the only psionicist we get to see regularly.
Outside of random Illithids that are most of the time monster fodder for the heroes in stories I can only recall other psionicists in FR novels in the House of Serpents trilogy. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:35:23
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There was a 'mind mage' (psionicist) in one of Paul Kemp's novels... I think. Don't remember the details.
I suppose - since he obviously didn't leave much of an impression on me - he wasn't all that powerful.
I don't think being a psion makes it harder to do magic - quite the opposite, really. I think that if you follow one path it simply becomes harder to learn the other. If one were to be 'brought up in' both traditions, it would be like learning a language. Easy when your young and your mind is fully open, harder as one gets older and 'set in your ways'.
I think sorcery is the closest we see of a hybrid class of Wizard/Psion - its being able to produce spectacular effects 'on the fly'. Note that Elminster can do the same - he has spells ready... but he doesn't really need them. He easily changes them and other's magic when he needs to. I think 'meta-magic Feats' is also a hybridization of the two - its using the power of your mind to alter the magic from its original intentions (which is VERY MUCH what Elminster does, all the time).
Hence, 'related, but different'. The D&D system isn't really designed from the ground up to handle the two side-by-side properly. If you've ever read any of Jack Vance's Dying Earth stories, you'd see that Vancian magic is very much like psionics. Elminster isn't THE archmage who happens to have psionics, he is THE archmage BECAUSE he has psionics - its basically like having every meta-magic feat for free (IMHO).
Iouluam (the greatest archmage?) must have had some psionics, and I wouldn't doubt Karsus and Larloch had a bit of it as well. Its literally a 'game changer'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Aug 2015 00:26:10 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:42:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Methinks Matron K'yorl Odran of House Oblodra could take him.
She sabotaged Matron Yvonnel Baenre's would-be third-son sacrifice ceremony (Road of the Patriarch).
Well, she's dead currently, although Bob did hint that we haven't seen the last of her.
It does seem hard for Salvatore to keep characters in the grave.  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was a 'mind mage' (psionicist) in one of Paul Kemp's novels... I think. Don't remember the details.
I suppose - since he obviously didn't leave much of an impression on me - he wasn't all that powerful.
I don't think being a psion makes it harder to do magic - quite the opposite, really. I think that if you follow one path it simply becomes harder to learn the other. If one were to be 'brought up in' both traditions, it would be like learning a language. Easy when your young and your mind is fully open, harder as one gets older and 'set in your ways'.
I think sorcery is the closest we see of a hybrid class of Wizard/Psion - its being able to produce spectacular effects 'on the fly'. Note that Elminster can do the same - he has spells ready... but he doesn't really need them. He easily changes them and other's magic when he needs to. I think 'meta-magic Feats' is also a hybridization of the two - its using the the power of your mind to alter the magic from its original intentions (which is VERY MUCH what Elminster does, all the time).
I think that was Magadon, though he didn't seem TOO powerful. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 16:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I think that Kimmuriel just seems to be the most powerful because he's practically the only psionicist we get to see regularly.
Yeah, I wish we got to see a bit more of the psionic characters in the novels. |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 18:50:34
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| Well the "House of Serpents" trilogy had two named psionicists - Arvin the protagonist, who's powers weren't exactly high-level, but he did manage to do some pretty impressive things. And Zelia (I think, this might not be the correct name) a Yuan-Ti who planted mental seeds in people all over Toril which took over and became her agents with their own psionic powers albeit lesser than her's, and she is able to use a lot of different powers both in and out of combat, and she is does play her role as a chess-master villain pretty well, she could definitely take on Kimmuriel. |
Edited by - eeorey on 07 Aug 2015 18:51:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 18:55:00
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Psionicists have gotten very little air time in the Realms... You could fit pretty much all the named psionicists of the Realms into one car -- possibly even a Volkswagen Beetle.
We simply don't have a good enough sample size for an accurate comparison. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 21:30:56
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I forget who it was, but I think I recall WHAT it was - there was a Malaugrym in Shadows of the Avatar that was able to read Bane's mind without that god detecting it.
I realize they are supposed to be Ed's 'Monster Munchkins', but thats seriously some major mind magic right there.
And going with my earlier supposition that 'psionics = greater magical aptitude', then we could imagine that all Malaugrym are automatically gifted with some wild talent (and by further extension, other such 'families', like the Incipient Clans, or even known families like the Harpells, Wands, or Talonmists).
EDIT: And whilst looking for the names of those clans, I had to re-read large swaths of SotM (which is always a pleasure), and I discovered that 'my theory' about psionics and magic isn't 'mine' at all. Its right there in that book, right under an earlier entry for Olohmber Starnadyn (pg.64): "Old Thunder was playing matchmaker among certain members of the Korchul, Halymmitor, and Sorntin whom he knew to have psionic wild talents, to see if their offspring would have stronger, more reliable psionic powers. He also knew that ancestors of all three families had been wizards."<snip>"...for these three human families at least, aptitude for magic - the ability to become a mage - seemed to be something that could be inherited." The Incipient Clans did not come about until Maxiladanarr Torstren became Magister much later, and he seems to have based his own program on that of the earlier Magister.
Thus, straight from the words of Ed greenwood himself - the two are connected, and having wild talent psionics does indeed boost ones magical potential. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Aug 2015 00:28:15 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2015 : 01:02:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was a 'mind mage' (psionicist) in one of Paul Kemp's novels... I think. Don't remember the details.
I suppose - since he obviously didn't leave much of an impression on me - he wasn't all that powerful.
I don't think being a psion makes it harder to do magic - quite the opposite, really. I think that if you follow one path it simply becomes harder to learn the other. If one were to be 'brought up in' both traditions, it would be like learning a language. Easy when your young and your mind is fully open, harder as one gets older and 'set in your ways'.
I think sorcery is the closest we see of a hybrid class of Wizard/Psion - its being able to produce spectacular effects 'on the fly'. Note that Elminster can do the same - he has spells ready... but he doesn't really need them. He easily changes them and other's magic when he needs to. I think 'meta-magic Feats' is also a hybridization of the two - its using the the power of your mind to alter the magic from its original intentions (which is VERY MUCH what Elminster does, all the time).
I think that was Magadon, though he didn't seem TOO powerful.
Except when powered by the SOURCE. In those instances he approached Quasi deity levels..... |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2015 : 05:31:48
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I think Kimmuriel has gained a lot of power since he was introduced; and in Servant of the Shard both Jarlaxle and Cadderly make references about not being sure they could take him in a fight (although Cadderly was not set up for spells to fight a psionicist at the time). Bob seems to use him as his deux ex machina when he needs to make Jarlaxle win or overcome anything; which is nifty and makes us think Kimmuriel is super duper powerful. I've loved the character since he was introduced, and yes we need more psions!
My own Realms novel that I swear I will one day write would have a psion as the protagonist. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2015 : 11:32:48
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| Remember lads, the novels aren't really written in a way that is comparable to the actual rules. I've seen it written where an obviously low level spell, in game terms, affect a high level character in a way that it normally wouldn't. Kimmuriel could be written to where he seems to be all powerful but if you had him in actual game terms you would find he isn't as high a level as they made him appear. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2015 : 18:27:29
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Good question. I have a few for you, some of which have already been mentioned by other posters.
1) Vhostym the Sojourner from the Erevis Cale trilogy - He was an epic level mage AND an epic level mind mage (Paul Kemp prefers that term). He mainly used his psionic abilities to boost his spells, like what Markustay was talking about. When you see the type of spells he's casting, that's a big deal. Plus he uses his psionic powers to pull Riven's mind apart and scour the thoughts of his minions.
2) Magadon from the Erevis Cale trilogy - I wouldn't say he's more powerful than Kimmuriel, but he's in roughly the same league. He was able to control and harness the energy from a sentient Netherese mythallar, which made him demigod level for the time he controlled it (he used it to leave Erevis, Riven, and Kesson Rel on their knees, screaming and leaking blood from everywhere). His baseline power is nowhere near that, but he has show a wide range of powers.
3) Zelia from the House of Serpents trilogy - She's a villain in the series that gives the best treatment of psionics in the Realms. She literally made puppets of lots of people with her psionics, and showed a lot of offensive firepower. She did things that we have never seen Kimmuriel do in the RAS novels.
4) The Abolethic Sovereignty ambassador from the Neverwinter Saga - His servitor does give the aboleth's name to Valindra and Sylora Salm, but it's too long and complicated for me to remember. When he probes Valindra's mind and soothes her insanity, she instantly compares it to Kimmuriel's probings, and realizes that the aboleth is much more powerful.
5) Methil el Viddenvelp from multiple RAS novels - When training Gromph in psionics, Kimmuriel outright admits that Methil (an illithid) is more powerful than he is. As he puts it, Methil's supply of psionic energy is almost completely inexhaustible. He also privately salutes Methil for his work with the memories of Dahlia, Quenthel, and Yvonnel, and tells Methil that he wishes to learn from him.
Kimmuriel is a beast, but the only powerful person we've seen him take on is Archmage Knellict, who he took completely by surprise. Most of Kimmuriel's power is implied, but his actual feats are very few. He did nothing in the siege of Draygo Quick's castle except talk. He was insistent that he would not help Jarlaxle in a fight against Gareth and his band of adventurers. He sided against Jarlaxle and Entreri when the Shadovar came for Charon's Claw. He was bluffed out of battling Cadderly. Kimmuriel's power gets inflated because he never loses, but he hardly ever fights either. He's a very cautious drow (which is a great reason why he's still alive). |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2015 : 23:27:58
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| The Kaliesh'erai in Evereska is noted as being one of the greatest stores of psionic lore outside of mind flayer society. Unfortunately, there's no mention of its membership. |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 07:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
The Kaliesh'erai in Evereska is noted as being one of the greatest stores of psionic lore outside of mind flayer society. Unfortunately, there's no mention of its membership.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070703
This WotC article puts their leader at level 18 as a psion (shaper), it's a pretty high level, though with all the epic-level spell casters it might not seem as impressive.
Also I'm not a big fan of an elven organization having a top position when it comes to psionics. They (psionics) always seemed to me to be more of a human and southern/eastern thing. And on top of that they are having it as one of those elf-only, extra traditional and extra isolationist groups. Just BLEH.
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Edited by - eeorey on 09 Aug 2015 07:52:28 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 13:21:59
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Ioulaum.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 15:08:59
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The legendary Laszik Silvermind of Jhaamdath was likely very powerful.
I created several more psionicists for my article on eidelar, my psionic version of warforged. Eiden, the first true eidelar and the guy who invented them, is likely approaching demigod levels of psionic power -- but he's not been seen since before the fall of Jhaamdath, so no one knows he's still around.
I named some other living psionicists in my article, and scattered a handful of surviving eidelar around, as well. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 16:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ioulaum.
-- George Krashos
I had a feeling I was forgetting one, and that was it! I'm not aware of a 5e update on him, but even putting his legendary spellcasting aside, an elder brain would far outstrip Kimmuriel in raw psionic power. I REALLY want a sourcebook update on that old lich. I almost want to see him in a novel, but I worry that he would be cannon fodder for some upstart Chosen. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 17:29:29
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
The Kaliesh'erai in Evereska is noted as being one of the greatest stores of psionic lore outside of mind flayer society. Unfortunately, there's no mention of its membership.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070703
This WotC article puts their leader at level 18 as a psion (shaper), it's a pretty high level, though with all the epic-level spell casters it might not seem as impressive.
Also I'm not a big fan of an elven organization having a top position when it comes to psionics. They (psionics) always seemed to me to be more of a human and southern/eastern thing. And on top of that they are having it as one of those elf-only, extra traditional and extra isolationist groups. Just BLEH.
That article gives me a couple of ideas... I'm grooving on the thought of either having Eiden be somewhere under the Shaar, and it's his presence that draws others... Or having him as a secret protector of Halruaa, who manipulates various Halruaan powers to keep Halruaa how he likes it.... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 16:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ioulaum.
-- George Krashos
I had a feeling I was forgetting one, and that was it! I'm not aware of a 5e update on him, but even putting his legendary spellcasting aside, an elder brain would far outstrip Kimmuriel in raw psionic power. I REALLY want a sourcebook update on that old lich. I almost want to see him in a novel, but I worry that he would be cannon fodder for some upstart Chosen.
You would think someone would have mentioned him early-on... oh.. wait...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Iouluam (the greatest archmage?) must have had some psionics, and I wouldn't doubt Karsus and Larloch had a bit of it as well. Its literally a 'game changer'.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Topic |
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Kimmuriel Oblodra, the most powerful psionicist?
