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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 20:07:33
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| I can see your point, but I don't think Drizzt is the savior. A lot of people read Drizzt, but that is the only Realms they read. I love him, but the Drizzt is basically his own franchise. If they made a Drizzt movie, that's what it would be. A Drizzt movie, not a D&D/FR movie. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1270 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 20:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
2) Go back to basics - give us Ed's 'Dark Elves'. The albino kind, like those really cool ones from the Hellboy movie. Sure, now we saying 'white people are evil', but no-one ever gets upset about that. 
A problem with that idea is it'll not fly with the less lore savy Realms fans. Drizzt fanboys who don't know that part of the Realms' history will flip, and you'll alienate the very fan base you're looking to reach with a Drizzt film.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 20:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
RE: Race - Two fairly easy fixes
1) Give us Drizzt, the GOOD drow. Then show him running into other good drow (Promenade? Some random forest?). If we do his background in a prologue flashback scene, and see ALL drow as evil (except for him... and perhaps his teacher), and its later revealed that good drow exist, but are either killed or run-away, that not only solves the whole problem, but we also get a little bit of a RW life-lesson; "don't judge a book by its cover", or in this case, don't judge an entire race by its bad press.
Honestly, I don't think that showing an exception or two would come anywhere close to mitigating the "99.99% of these dark-skinned people are murderous and evil!" thing. Race issues in the US are way too sensitive for something like that to work.
And an exception isn't that remarkable unless you know what the norm is. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1270 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 20:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
RE: Race - Two fairly easy fixes
1) Give us Drizzt, the GOOD drow. Then show him running into other good drow (Promenade? Some random forest?). If we do his background in a prologue flashback scene, and see ALL drow as evil (except for him... and perhaps his teacher), and its later revealed that good drow exist, but are either killed or run-away, that not only solves the whole problem, but we also get a little bit of a RW life-lesson; "don't judge a book by its cover", or in this case, don't judge an entire race by its bad press.
Honestly, I don't think that showing an exception or two would come anywhere close to mitigating the "99.99% of these dark-skinned people are murderous and evil!" thing. Race issues in the US are way too sensitive for something like that to work.
And an exception isn't that remarkable unless you know what the norm is.
Haven't thought this all the way through, but could a brief overview of Corellon's Curse in the opening of the movie help things? Kinda like LotR gave a brief history of the Ring in Fellowship? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 20:26:16
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Movies always rewrite book (and even past TV) canon. Thats just how it goes - people have learned to expect it.
Or do you think this movie is going to stick 100% to previous FR canon?
I can't believe I am now talking about "screw canon" alongside pleading for a Drizzt movie. Either I've gone insane or I've gone sane... can't quite tell which. 
What we need RIGHT NOW are characters that new fans (ie, 'young people', not 'old farts') can identify with. Make Drizzt all sparkly for all I care - I just want FR to become a household name, so we can get some new love in the sourcebook dept. You produce a movie cool enough for 'the boys', and with a 'star-crossed romance' for the girls (and YES, I am being TERRIBLY sexist ATM), and its a hit with both, and everyone else ("oh man! They blew that dragons head off with a fireball! You should have seen it!") , then thats pure win for us.
The 'grognard' in me is now balled up in a fetal position going, "No, NO, NO!!!!!!"
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2015 20:26:34 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 20:32:41
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| Though some 'young people' are 'old farts' in that they have been following the Realms for a long time. I don't play the game much, but I have been reading the novels for years, and I am only in my 20s. I would still argue against a Drizzt movie. I don't think he could bring in new fans the same way a movie with a new cast of characters would. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1270 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 20:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Movies always rewrite book (and even past TV) canon. Thats just how it goes - people have learned to expect it.
Or do you think this movie is going to stick 100% to previous FR canon?
I can't believe I am now talking about "screw canon" alongside pleading for a Drizzt movie. Either I've gone insane or I've gone sane... can't quite tell which.
What we need RIGHT NOW are characters that new fans (ie, 'young people', not 'old farts') can identify with. Make Drizzt all sparkly for all I care - I just want FR to become a household name, so we can get some new love in the sourcebook dept. You produce a movie cool enough for 'the boys', and with a 'star-crossed romance' for the girls (and YES, I am being TERRIBLY sexist ATM), and its a hit with both, and everyone else ("oh man! They blew that dragons head off with a fireball! You should have seen it!") , then thats pure win for us.
The 'grognard' in me is now balled up in a fetal position going, "No, NO, NO!!!!!!"
Honest question. How is that different from how people characterize the 4e edition change?
If we flip the bird to the fan base and focus solely on gaining new fans, how are we not doomed to the same failure people say befell 4e?
It seems like the same kind of reasoning to me. Maybe I'm missing something?
5e has been all about taking the best of both eras and bringing them together, at least so far. This seems counter to everything they have attempted. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 22:05:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Make Drizzt all sparkly for all I care
Yeah, no need to question your sanity there...
Seriously tho, I just don't see Drizzt as the savior you're looking for. Even setting asside the racial issues (Which is an enormously good point) I think it will upset more people than it would attract When (sorry) "if" the movie butchers the books.
I do love reading realms novels, and the idea of a movie butchering one makes me twitch. I'd much rather see an orginal story with original characters, with perhaps a cameo or three of names we do know.
What I am hoping to see is little tidbits and easter eggs that your average movie goer won't notice, but will make rabid fans like us squeal in glee. That may make a butchered story or two worth sitting through.
You want Drizzt in the movie? Have the generic new group of people strolling thru Waterdeep and show a Dark Elf, Red haired lass, Dwarf, halfling, and massive Barbarian in the background. Perhaps a recognisable wide brimmed hat and pipe smoke in another scene. Heck throw a warrior woman in rediculously bare chested armor and her Saurian companion in for kicks!
Beyond subtle cameo's like that I'd rather not see a lot of characters from the novels. That would be my preferance. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 22:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Movies always rewrite book (and even past TV) canon. Thats just how it goes - people have learned to expect it.
Or do you think this movie is going to stick 100% to previous FR canon?
I can't believe I am now talking about "screw canon" alongside pleading for a Drizzt movie. Either I've gone insane or I've gone sane... can't quite tell which.
What we need RIGHT NOW are characters that new fans (ie, 'young people', not 'old farts') can identify with. Make Drizzt all sparkly for all I care - I just want FR to become a household name, so we can get some new love in the sourcebook dept. You produce a movie cool enough for 'the boys', and with a 'star-crossed romance' for the girls (and YES, I am being TERRIBLY sexist ATM), and its a hit with both, and everyone else ("oh man! They blew that dragons head off with a fireball! You should have seen it!") , then thats pure win for us.
The 'grognard' in me is now balled up in a fetal position going, "No, NO, NO!!!!!!"
A new fan wouldn't know Szass Tam from Alustriel... Which means it's easy enough to just spin a new tale, with new characters.
And it's a lot easier to identify with a human living on the surface than any member of an Underdark race.
The scenario of someone rebelling against their oppressive society is not limited to any one character or culture, in the Realms or in the real-world. It's orders of magnitude easier to drop that particular template on a new character than it is to drop it on some existing character, and have to deal with the baggage of canon and elements that would be problematic to bring to the big screen.
For example, the movie could focus on the son -- or daughter -- of a Thayan necromancer, being pushed into the family "business" and rebelling against that and fleeing for a better life. Same basic concept, with no racial overtones, no canon tale to adhere to, and you capitalize on the craze for things undead. Throw in some unique intelligent undead pursuing the fleeing young Thayan, and you've got some serious potential there. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 23:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Make Drizzt all sparkly for all I care
Yeah, no need to question your sanity there...
Seriously tho, I just don't see Drizzt as the savior you're looking for. Even setting asside the racial issues (Which is an enormously good point) I think it will upset more people than it would attract When (sorry) "if" the movie butchers the books.
I do love reading realms novels, and the idea of a movie butchering one makes me twitch. I'd much rather see an orginal story with original characters, with perhaps a cameo or three of names we do know.
What I am hoping to see is little tidbits and easter eggs that your average movie goer won't notice, but will make rabid fans like us squeal in glee. That may make a butchered story or two worth sitting through.
You want Drizzt in the movie? Have the generic new group of people strolling thru Waterdeep and show a Dark Elf, Red haired lass, Dwarf, halfling, and massive Barbarian in the background. Perhaps a recognisable wide brimmed hat and pipe smoke in another scene. Heck throw a warrior woman in rediculously bare chested armor and her Saurian companion in for kicks!
Beyond subtle cameo's like that I'd rather not see a lot of characters from the novels. That would be my preferance.
Agreed. That's what I was vouching for. New, original characters that aren't from any novels, with possible cameo appearances of well known characters |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 00:25:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think this movie needs to avoid any drow characters altogether -- good or evil. The US is very, very hung up on race issues, and saying "yeah, here's this race of dark-skinned people, the vast majority of whom are so evil they'd kill their own mothers to get a little political power," is going to generate howls of outrage so fast it'll make your head spin.
Yes, we, the D&D players, know that the drow are not any kind of statement on real-world issues. But we are a small portion of the movie-going audience. As soon as the non-D&D people find out that a movie includes this very evil bunch, it's going to be horribly misconstrued and spun in the worst possible way -- and the movie will get even more negative PR than D&D got from religious groups in the 80's.
I don't think it would be that big of a deal, because you wouldn't have to go into all of that with a "The Icewind Dale Trilogy" film series. All you would have to show is an honorable dark-skinned elf confronting bigotry and prejudice at every step, which would make for a great story of sympathetic heroism and bravery and character and all that. You would root for the underdog, and hate on the haters.
Drizzt could have a few brief, vague flashback scenes that hint at a hellish, traumatic past, but that's all that would be needed. Very little of his past was revealed in the "TIDT" books, anyway.
It's only if a "The Dark Elf Trilogy" of movies rolled around, where you actually got to see why so many surface folk hate the drow, that racial issues would get flipped around on their heads.
But if things ever got that far, then the first few movies would have had to have been a success, so I don't think that people would be too quick to cry foul when his past was finally revealed in detail.
Part of this could be circumvented by just having Black humans play various characters throughout the first few movies, so that the drow would not be seen as a direct analog to Blacks humans at all.
For example, I wouldn't be opposed to casting the Harpells as a Black family. Their initial fascination with Drizzt upon his first visit to Longsaddle could be very interesting: Black humans fawning over a dark elf. And I think the actor Harry Lennix would make for an awesome Malchor Harpell!
And what about having the angry, blustering Spokesman Kemp of Targos played by Star Trek's Michael Dorn (the Klingon Worf)? He would be playing an antagonistic character who was, himself, a Black guy being racist against a dark elf!
I just think that a lot of the wind could be preemptively let out of the racebaiters' sails by smart casting and clever ramping up of the big reveal about the nature of Drizzt's fellow dark elves. It wouldn't have to be seen as controversial at all. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 00:32:43
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I just think that a lot of the wind could be preemptively let out of the racebaiters' sails by smart casting and clever ramping up of the big reveal about the nature of Drizzt's fellow dark elves. It wouldn't have to be seen as controversial at all.
You would still have this race fully made up of ''I kick puppies for lulz'' evil people, with the single, one special dude. Other non evil dark elves should be shown somewhere in the movie (and the FR has a good number of them), because the 1 on the *whole* race situation is -quite honestly- pretty ridiculous.
It would also still remain a delicate topic. I think that a plot along the lines of what Wooly posted could be safer (and would also be cool, if well made). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 00:52:32
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Haha! We had lots of Black fans in the audience when Bob came to a Houston con a few years back. I just don't get the racial worries that you guys are feeling.
Of course there are more than just 1 good drow. Zak was one, and the Spider Mage was another. The sheer fact that the matriarchy was so adept at repressing dissenters and sacrilegious sorts goes to show that they must have had practice at doing such, which means that there must have been many goodly drow down through the ages.
But the Drizzt Saga is about one particular such goodly drow, and the fact that he lucked out and landed amongst a group of welcoming, loving surface folk who refused to judge him in a racist way.
Yes, there is a pronounced fantasy twist on racism in effect with the whole dark-elves-are-evil/Drizzt-is-the-exception-to-the-rule thing.
That doesn't mean that the movie would have to bang viewers over the head with it right from the beginning, though. The novels certainly didn't. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 11 Aug 2015 01:04:30 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 01:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Haha! We had lots of Black fans in the audience when Bob came to a Houston con a few years back. I just don't get the racial worries that you guys are feeling.
Of course there are more than just 1 good drow. Zak was one, and the Spider Mage was another. The sheer fact that the matriarchy was so adept at repressing dissenters and sacrilegious sorts goes to show that they must have had practice at doing such, which means that there must have been many goodly drow down through the ages.
But the Drizzt Saga is about one particular such goodly drow, and the fact that he lucked out and landed amongst a group of welcoming, loving surfacing folk who refused to judge him in a racist way.
Yes, there is a pronounced fantasy twist on racism in effect with the whole dark-elves-are-evil/Drizzt-the-exception-to-the-rule thing.
That doesn't mean that the movie would have to bang viewers over the head with it right from the beginning, though. The novels certainly didn't.
Idk BEAST. The movie would still need to offer some background on why the drow are that way (i.e., make clear that it is not ''genetic'' or something along those lines, perhaps show somehow that there are even *groups* of dark elves who are different, like the followers of Eilistraee, not just 2 or 3). But this matter is indeed delicate, as the drow situation is definitely weird to those that don't know the race background in FR.
Perhaps, like Delwa proposed, a LotR-style intro about the drow and their whole history would help. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 01:17:43
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I'm thinking of the movie version of Crichton's The Thirteenth Warrior, which contrasted ancient Arab culture against ancient Viking culture. There was no prolonged history lesson about either culture in that film. It just sent straight into the conflict, and then eventually showed the characters working their way through it.
I don't think people need as much backstory and rationalization/justification as you guys do.
In fact, I think that the mystery and intrigue surrounding Drizzt in the early books is a huge part of why people wanted more books about him. It's a big part of those first three novels. Just why do people hate on the drow, so much? OK, sure, this one is cool--fine. But what is it about his fellow dark elves that puts people on edge, so? In the meantime, let's just admire the swordplay and globe-trotting.
Leaving that question lingering could open the door for more movies, just like it did with the books. And maybe delivering the bad news gradually, as did the books, would make it more palatable, and prevent it from shocking folks as much as you guys seem to think it would.
You know, there are real life Black folks who come from broken homes and terrible early life situations, who rise above all that and just want to be respected for who and how they are, today, who might be able to relate to and champion Drizzt. They don't deny that a large part of the Black population has similar struggles and shameful, or at least embarrassing, history. But they do love a good rehabilitation, or even Phoenix, story. They love the notion that something good can come out of all that. And Drizzt is a celebration of that ideal.
I get being racially sensitive. But I don't like being racially retarded. By that, I mean holding ourselves back through clumsy, contorted, artificial means of self-restraint that keeps us from telling good stories. We shouldn't be afraid to deal with issues of race, altogether. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 11 Aug 2015 01:21:09 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 01:27:18
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I wouldn't mind have drow in a movie, but again, new characters, not Drizzt. Oh yes, Drizzt is great. I got started on the Drizzt novels, but like I said before, if there is a Drizzt movie, it would be a Drizzt movie, not a D&D/Realms movie.
I might see a movie featuring goodly drow (such as followers of Eilistraee), but again, have them be original characters. Just please, not a Drizzt movie. There was a time I would have been supported a Drizzt movie, but not anymore. I will read the books, and I still love the character, but if there is going to be a good D&D movie, I don't think it should focus on Drizzt.
I do however agree that we shouldn't be afraid to address issues such as race or sexual orientation. It gets people talking, and that can be a good thing. By shoving them under the rug, we are denying they are issues. So I can agree there. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 01:34:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Haha! We had lots of Black fans in the audience when Bob came to a Houston con a few years back. I just don't get the racial worries that you guys are feeling.
There's one hell of a difference between informed readers that know and understand the background, and the average movie-going person who isn't going to know anything more than what's in the trailer. The latter outnumbers the former by a very considerable margin, and it's easy to see where a misconception that could destroy the movie could easily come into the mix.
A lot of movie-goers just don't care about nuance, and all it takes is one vocal enough person to cast it into the wrong light, and you've got a big mess.
Heck, when the movie The Da Vinci Code came out, people were protesting casting an albino actor in the part of the evil albino monk, because it "perpetuated the myth that albino people are evil." That was just one guy, with no other albino people even mentioned.
Or how about people complaining that the Gungans in Episode 1 were racial/ethnic stereotypes? People reacted negatively to CGI characters because of a few mannerisms...
You can't say someone is a special example of his race without showing why, and that means you've got to focus some attention on that race -- otherwise, the oddball character is just another dude. And there will be many people who react negatively to such a portrayal.
It's not about being afraid to deal with issues of race. It's about trying to handle it in a respectful manner, and doing your best to avoid even the appearance of stereotypes and prejudice. I simply don't see a way to do that on the big screen, with drow -- at least not in your first go. Maybe after several movies, when they've already been made familiar to your average person who wouldn't read a book if you paid them, then you can go down that rabbit hole. Doing it right off the back is practically begging for trouble.
I'm not sure that a fantasy movie is the proper vehicle for exploring racial issues, anyway. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 05:42:01
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Sure, if you make Drizzt brown-skinned like on the cover of The Crystal Shard, and then associate 99.9% of his race with pure evil, you are asking for trouble. But if you give him the blackest, onyx skin with stark white hair you create a very exotic looking character that no reasonable person will see as any kind of analog to real world African Americans. Yes, I said "reasonable person" because I understand what you are saying and that some wingnuts will come out of left field and make some noise about it, but I think you are lending them far too much weight in their ability to make waves. Thor 2 featured "Dark Elves" - some of which were white (Malekith) and others played by black actors - specifically Algrim/Kurse, but then again that entire franchise has been fairly racially ambiguous, what with Heimdall being black and Hogun the Grim an Asian man.
Let's not also forget that White/Black, without any racial component whatsoever, has often been a stand-in for Good/Evil. White is daytime, it is revealing, it is truth, while Black is night, obscuring, dangerous, mysterious. Black cats are bad luck, and the villain is typically the guy wearing black. White Magic has always been about restorative effects, while Black (not brown) Magic is destructive - going back at least as far (and possibly farther) as Ancient Egypt - which of course is part of Africa.
Ok I'm starting to ramble. Back on point - if they were to cast nothing but African actors to play drow, portray them as almost universally and unredeemably EVIL, while having all white actors play surface elves, humans, and dwarves as the GOOD GUYS - sure you'd have a problem. But if the drow are shown using very fey looking actors, regardless of ethnic origin, with makeup/CGI to account for their jet black skin and shockingly contrasting hair, I think you create this ethereal, otherworldly culture that people will find fascinating and not in any way analogous to real-world racial stock. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 11 Aug 2015 05:47:43 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 08:37:00
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black skin... black elves and black humans........ the drow were modeled off a race of myth that guess what, had obsidian black skin. furthermore, pulls out a Crayola box and pulls out a black crayon and pulls some random black person hostage and then says, I don't get it. black American skin doesn't look black to match this black crayon.( btw, African American is a term that means you have dual citizenship, one in the us and the other in Africa; though which part is up to you. yes you can have a white guy that has a white American parent and a south African white parent too....)
I digress and I admit I should not have gone there but I did, I refuse to apologize .
anyway if they were going to put a drow character in a movie, it wouldn't matter if they used a black man a white man, or a etc all they would need is a make up and a mask.
ummmm
yeah I would not want any well known characters in it either. Fresh new ones and not too well known ones sure, well known organizations sure. cameos of well known ones sure thing, buti tshould not star drizzt and company, Elminster etc in lead roles.
now I think I will do my best not to come back to this scroll because I think it makes everyone look silly. yes everyone even me.
hey ma, look its a black elf why is the white elf killing it??? its racism. bah..... dumb human the half orc behind them snorts. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 18:03:50
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I've been thinking on this whole Dark Elf rascisim nonesense and have come to a conclusion.
It's not about anyone being offended enough to make it an issue.
It's about who will choose to USE it to create an issue.
That is the world we live in, and it is a sick, twisted, sad little place.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 19:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I've been thinking on this whole Dark Elf rascisim nonesense and have come to a conclusion.
It's not about anyone being offended enough to make it an issue.
It's about who will choose to USE it to create an issue.
That is the world we live in, and it is a sick, twisted, sad little place.
I think that view is somewhat cynical. While I'll not deny that there are folks that seem to look for reasons to be offended, people can be legitimately offended without having to look for cause. Everyone has their own particular areas where even one wrong word can set them off. I once found myself highly dissatisfied by a Pixar flick I'd expected to enjoy, because the way certain elements of the story were presented really rubbed me the wrong way.
(And I'm not going to speak further on that one; it's just a particular quirk of mine) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Aug 2015 19:17:47 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 20:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's one hell of a difference between informed readers that know and understand the background, and the average movie-going person who isn't going to know anything more than what's in the trailer. The latter outnumbers the former by a very considerable margin, and it's easy to see where a misconception that could destroy the movie could easily come into the mix.
A lot of movie-goers just don't care about nuance, and all it takes is one vocal enough person to cast it into the wrong light, and you've got a big mess.
Heck, when the movie The Da Vinci Code came out, people were protesting casting an albino actor in the part of the evil albino monk, because it "perpetuated the myth that albino people are evil." That was just one guy, with no other albino people even mentioned.
Or how about people complaining that the Gungans in Episode 1 were racial/ethnic stereotypes? People reacted negatively to CGI characters because of a few mannerisms...
You can't say someone is a special example of his race without showing why, and that means you've got to focus some attention on that race -- otherwise, the oddball character is just another dude. And there will be many people who react negatively to such a portrayal.
It's not about being afraid to deal with issues of race. It's about trying to handle it in a respectful manner, and doing your best to avoid even the appearance of stereotypes and prejudice. I simply don't see a way to do that on the big screen, with drow -- at least not in your first go. Maybe after several movies, when they've already been made familiar to your average person who wouldn't read a book if you paid them, then you can go down that rabbit hole. Doing it right off the back is practically begging for trouble.
I'm not sure that a fantasy movie is the proper vehicle for exploring racial issues, anyway.
I never played the game. So when the first Drizzt book came out in early 1988, I had no idea what a dark elf or drow was. I tried to use the process of elimination in order to identify who the key characters were on the cover, but I didn't know enough background info to figure it out quickly.
As a White guy, I didn't feel the slightest bit uncomfortable reading the book. It didn't explain much about Drizzt's past, but rather just referenced people hating his race for the drow's past foul deeds. To me, that might as well mean nationality, as opposed to race, ethnicity, or species.
Does WOTC have any actual customer service complaint statistics about people complaining that dark elf/drow lore is interpreted as racist by any large number of people? Is there a proven dilemma here, or just a speculative one? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 21:10:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's one hell of a difference between informed readers that know and understand the background, and the average movie-going person who isn't going to know anything more than what's in the trailer. The latter outnumbers the former by a very considerable margin, and it's easy to see where a misconception that could destroy the movie could easily come into the mix.
A lot of movie-goers just don't care about nuance, and all it takes is one vocal enough person to cast it into the wrong light, and you've got a big mess.
Heck, when the movie The Da Vinci Code came out, people were protesting casting an albino actor in the part of the evil albino monk, because it "perpetuated the myth that albino people are evil." That was just one guy, with no other albino people even mentioned.
Or how about people complaining that the Gungans in Episode 1 were racial/ethnic stereotypes? People reacted negatively to CGI characters because of a few mannerisms...
You can't say someone is a special example of his race without showing why, and that means you've got to focus some attention on that race -- otherwise, the oddball character is just another dude. And there will be many people who react negatively to such a portrayal.
It's not about being afraid to deal with issues of race. It's about trying to handle it in a respectful manner, and doing your best to avoid even the appearance of stereotypes and prejudice. I simply don't see a way to do that on the big screen, with drow -- at least not in your first go. Maybe after several movies, when they've already been made familiar to your average person who wouldn't read a book if you paid them, then you can go down that rabbit hole. Doing it right off the back is practically begging for trouble.
I'm not sure that a fantasy movie is the proper vehicle for exploring racial issues, anyway.
I never played the game. So when the first Drizzt book came out in early 1988, I had no idea what a dark elf or drow was. I tried to use the process of elimination in order to identify who the key characters were on the cover, but I didn't know enough background info to figure it out quickly.
As a White guy, I didn't feel the slightest bit uncomfortable reading the book. It didn't explain much about Drizzt's past, but rather just referenced people hating his race for the drow's past foul deeds. To me, that might as well mean nationality, as opposed to race, ethnicity, or species.
Does WOTC have any actual customer service complaint statistics about people complaining that dark elf/drow lore is interpreted as racist by any large number of people? Is there a proven dilemma here, or just a speculative one?
I'm a white guy, too. The fact that I've never experienced racism doesn't mean that others haven't. And it also doesn't mean that I'm going to view racial matters exactly the same as someone who isn't white.
I'm not aware of WotC receiving complaints about drow. But why would they? At this point, the only folks who are aware of drow are the people that are reading books and can figure things out for themselves. We're not talking about them -- we're talking about people that go see movies, and a lot of those people don't voluntarily touch books. We're talking about an audience that is orders of magnitude larger, who does not have and will likely not seek out context, and who are going to be bombarded with sound bites from the media that shape their opinions without them ever seeing the movie or finding out that it's based on a book.
And yes, there is a proven dilemma. It's called the news. Just watch it for a while, and you'll find more than one such dilemma.
Even before recent events in the US exacerbated matters, there have been numerous cases where even a hint of racism has caused a huge mess.
Heck, several years back, a prominent member of the House of Representatives made a statement trying to praise another politician, but it was somehow twisted into an endorsement of segregation, and it pretty much ended his political career. He didn't say much more than "this guy is really great!", but since the guy he was referring to had been pro-segregation a generation before, it was interpreted as endorsing segregation. You could certainly say it was deliberately taken out of context, and I'd agree with you -- but that doesn't change the fact that it was still damaging enough to end a previously promising political career.
And that was long before things got where they are now. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Aug 2015 21:11:09 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 22:02:01
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| Would they even use black actors to portray Drow nowadays? Most current Drow art features them with grayish/purplish skin. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 23:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Would they even use black actors to portray Drow nowadays? Most current Drow art features them with grayish/purplish skin.
No they wouldn't. Why rule in or out actors based on race, when it will (or should) be based on talent, and likely market appeal? James Cameron's Avatar is a perfect example. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 00:59:03
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They are dark elves. If people are offended by the fact that in a movie about a fantasy place the "bad guys" are dark-skinned, then they should have ben picketing the Star Wars franchise because Darth Vader is obviously a racist character.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 01:40:59
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Dark Elves already featured in Marvel's second Thor flick as the bad guys. I don't live in the US, but I don't think it offended anyone, did it?
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« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 04:52:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana
Dark Elves already featured in Marvel's second Thor flick as the bad guys. I don't live in the US, but I don't think it offended anyone, did it?
All we saw of most of them was stupid-looking white masks. Plus, their unmasked leader was not dark-skinned. And they weren't acting like drow -- there's a difference between soldiers in battle and people who murder their own families to get ahead. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 05:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
They are dark elves. If people are offended by the fact that in a movie about a fantasy place the "bad guys" are dark-skinned, then they should have ben picketing the Star Wars franchise because Darth Vader is obviously a racist character.
-- George Krashos
How? He's a white guy in a dark suit. Plus, the movie did not have to establish that just about every single member of any particular race was willing to commit murder just to get ahead.
That's the point I keep trying to make... Drow are almost universally dark-skinned. Drow society thrives on things like murdering anyone to get ahead, even family members.
Maybe other parts of the world have made better progress on race, but in the US, racial tensions are always simmering, ready for any incident to cause them to flare up. And doing a major movie that says "with one exception, every member of this race of dark-skinned people is thoroughly evil!" is just begging for trouble.
Too many Americans can't be bothered to properly research something and will happily follow the sound-bites of anyone who speaks loudly enough, especially if that person tells them what they want to hear. If nothing else, our elections grandly illustrate that.
Race is a lot more sensitive an issue in the US right now than it normally is -- but all it takes is one misstep, and it's a huge mess. And our media will be eager to pounce on that one misstep and present it to the world.
I don't see that it's worth the risk of the potential negative PR, and considering how careful most corporations are to act, I don't see WotC taking that risk, either. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 05:26:16
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Sarcasm is a medium that doesn't translate well in written form. I don't think Vader is a racist character.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Forgotten Realms movie
