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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 08:36:22
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Hi everyone. I've been having a thought experiment with myself over the past few days, and wanted to get the opinions of the various other scribes here.
Say you are the sole heir of a long-thought-lost elven noble house (which one doesn't matter, but we'll pick Mistwinter, since we know they're dead). This has been acknowledged by other nobles and all the relevant priesthoods. You were not raised as a noble, but were instead fostered with a middle/lower class family.
You are now an adult. You are an adventurer. You want to re-establish your house. What do you need, and how do you go about getting it?
Edition and timeframe is 2e and the 1360's DR, mainly because that's what I play. Not that it matters much. And I'll handwave that the Crusade has happened and Myth Drannor has been reclaimed, for an additional area to play in.
So, some of my thoughts. This budding noble would need, in no particular order:
* An income. Being a noble is expensive, and you'll need lots of cash
* Property. To be a House, you need to have a, well, house. This can probably start as a townhome equivalent, but should grow to be a manor as soon as possible. For bonus noble points, establish residences in all the existing elven realms
* Staff. Manors don't run themselves
* Armed retainers. Guards for your property, and your own private army to help out the local ruler.
* House wizard. All the old houses had them. If you're not a wizard (and probably even if you are), you'll want to get as powerful a wizard as you can
* Heirs. No sense going through all this trouble if it dies with you all over again. If you're male, this would require a legitimate marriage. If you're female, that step is probably optional.
So, how would you address all these needs? And did I leave any out?
To my mind, everything (with the possible exception of heirs) is dependent on funding. Waterdeep's nobles can do what they do because they're incredibly rich, for instance. How would you go about amassing a fortune? Mining would be a possibility, though somewhat dwarven. Trade? Lots of competition there. Attract craftsmen and do finished product work? You don't have anything to attract them with, and other nobles would object.
What class(es) would you be? The need for armed retainers to me makes being at least a multi-classed fighter a good idea. It would be one of the few instances where you'd actually want to use all those 2e fighter followers. Or, in 3e, actually go for Leadership abuse.
What sorts of adventures would you look for? Would you try to marry and have heirs quickly, or wait for love? And what sort of partner would you want?
I'm really curious what everyone's thoughts are on this.
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 10:20:39
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Does his family have a Moonblade?
Surviving a drawing of it would probably be accepted as proof that he is a legitimate heir
If they do have a "Dead" Moonblade you could always look at what Elaith does for his daughters moonblade to "Reignite" it
If the family doesnt have a Moonblade then you probably need to get recognition from the local elven ruler and some how prove you are who you say you are. Seeing as how elves frown on disturbing the dead or necromancy you wont be able to bring back mum and dad with a Speak with dead spell and ask them. They may have to get a hold of the Heralds
If you have access to the 3ed Source book Power of Faerun the first chapter is on being or becoming a Noble
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 12:27:01
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A couple of thoughts:
1) Property & income.
These are (IRL historically) interwoven. All noble families would own land, and derive most of their income from it. If we're talking about a noble elf returning to Faerun, there's a good chance that lands which once belonged to his/her family now belong to someone else. How are you going to press your claim to the land? By force? If so, presumably some other local/regional powers are going to oppose you.....
Regarding income: IRL, nobles wouldn't be seen dead getting involved in things like mining or trade (at least, not directly). Frightfully common...... ;-)
2) Allegiance
Who owes you allegiance? Presumably noone, as your house has long been considered lost. How are you going to attain, and retain, the allegiance of a bunch of vassals?
Also, to whom to you owe allegiance? It depends on where your lands and, and who the local big guy/girl is in your area. Saying you owe allegiance to the Coronal of Myth Drannor won't go down well if your lands are in Amn....... |
Edited by - BenN on 25 Jul 2015 12:31:04 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 12:40:30
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Dargoth: I already established, as part of the thought exercise, that the legitimacy of the claim had already been decided. So whether there was a moonblade, or even the exact subrace, doesn't particularly matter. What I'm interested in is, once that claim has been established, what do you do next?
BenN: That's very true about property and income, at least historically on Earth. Though even on Earth there were essentially money fiefs, the right to tax, for instance, merchants on a certain part of a river that the overlord could hand out. And in Late Middle Ages Germany (well, land-that-became-Germany) there were plenty of nobles who got their income from extensive mining.
But Faerun isn't Earth, and there are plenty of nobles (including all of those in Waterdeep, Amn, Sembia, and Durpar) who are nobles because they are merchants. It's certainly done.
The point on vassals is an interesting one. The system isn't nearly as developed among the elves. Yet we do see things like Elaith meeting with something akin to an estates manager from Evermeet every year to review how things are going and make decisions. It seems more like 18th and 19th century England than, say 14th century France.
A noble house probably had families of servants who were traditionally servants of that house. Since they're probably also extinct (or were released to other families or their own destinies), finding new ones would likely require just simple hiring, or attracting them by being inspiring. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 20:42:12
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You could use the 2E rules for followers when the player(s) hit 9th level I think? That would help with troops and servants. If in Myth Drannor, House Mistwinter may well have ancestral lands which I believe default to the Coronal's care. Now if the house was thought extinct do you automatically gain those lands back? Or perhaps need to run some quests for the elven realm or do some great deeds to assure being awarded those lands. The house wizard could well be a baelnorn that protects the family crypts under the home, at least until he helps train a replacement.
Nothing wrong with living in a ruin as a base. As the player progresses in level and gains treasure etc. they can upgrade and fix the place up. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 25 Jul 2015 20:43:27 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 22:44:20
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hehehehe... you could use House Vyshaan too...... though if you did, Id call your character Vyshaan dog.
House Vyshaan( assuming I spelled it right) have been dead for well for a good long time, and there is rumors abound that some of the Vyshaan sons escaped their destruction. Whether they did or did not, it would make an interesting tale since every elf out there including the sun elves have no love for that house, well then and that other house with the fey-ri. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 23:01:49
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In some ways all that matters is having the Heralds acknowledge the claim.
The bloodline confirmed all the rest need to follow.
Money and Followers clearly important. With official announcement the followers might still come to a House they thought lost. With Elves it might only be a generation or two, though some Elves will recall 5 generations or more. The only reason the fore-bearers did not follow the House was because they believed it no longer existed. Any current Loyalties was just because they thought they had no House. Many might have become very minor Houses from their own name. These Houses clearly can see advantage to rejoining the Lost House because in numbers there is greater power for all.
There also might be treaties or agreements with other Houses that might provide trade agreements, monies owed, duties to support the House. Agreements for even 1,000 years that could not be met because there was no Known heir.
The land grants clearly could be voided though most likely need to be contested. The Law is one thing, however those that currently hold clearly might not want to move even if they recognize the claim.
All in all it does come down to many factors that you can have the rediscovered House a cause of great conflict or or one of adjustments of only trade and taxes. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 10:25:39
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SFDragon: House Vyshaan never died. Ed's confirmed that there are Vyshaan in the current Realms. Some of them know their heritage, some do not.
Everyone else: Interesting thoughts, thank you all. This isn't for a character of mine, or a campaign I'm running. It was just a thought experiment of what would it take to get a defunct noble house up and running. And I suppose it also comes down to what your definition of "up and running" is, which is a useful observation on its own.
The basis for the thought experiment was taking someone who is noble, but has nothing else. What do you do so that, say, House Mistwinter (or Irithyl, or whatever) isn't just "my room at my local tavern."
If anyone else has any thoughts, I'm interested to hear them. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 17:01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
SFDragon: House Vyshaan never died. Ed's confirmed that there are Vyshaan in the current Realms. Some of them know their heritage, some do not.
Yes, and if any poor soul ever becomes known as a "heir" to it, Goldies will try their best to wash with his or her (as presumed party to the murder of Zaor) blood the shadow of blame on themselves, before other elves can get to butcher him or her on the "standing orders" from the first Elven Court assembly. 
quote:
The basis for the thought experiment was taking someone who is noble, but has nothing else. What do you do so that, say, House Mistwinter (or Irithyl, or whatever) isn't just "my room at my local tavern."
People, land, external support.
Followers are the first priority, of course.
Land may be much less of an issue depending on the current political situation.
During the Retreat: there's excess of territories that formally are still part of Elven lands, but don't have adequate protection. Thus cajoling a permission to settle by - and becoming a vassal (de facto very autonomous even by Elven standards) of - some or other legitimate Elven authority (whether on site or in Retreat) is easier than ever before or after.
The downside is that such a group would receive only legal confirmation and "moral support", of course. So all resources they'll have other than land are a charismatic leader, connections, and skills of participants at handling politics and economy (such as it is). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Practicalities of returning an elven noble house
