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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2015 : 22:23:18
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I am brainstorming ideas for adjusting the positions/alliances of the deities in my home campaign, but I have some related questions that I'm trying to reconcile, since I haven't stumbled upon any Lore surrounding these circumstances (I haven't read the Sundering novels yet, so that may be related to my ignorance on these subjects)...
1. Any ideas on how Cyric broke free of his imprisonment in the Supreme Throne?
I am considering making a connection between Ghaunadaur and Cyric in the game to somehow justify it (in part because of various threads on Ghaunadaur/Elemental Evil and Cyric/Tharzidun/Black Sun). Since Lolth failed in her Demonweave gambit, I am looking at the possibility of Cyric and Ghaunadaur replacing Lolth as the evil patrons of the Drow in the Realms. This positions them as the primary gods of Chaos, and creates some opportunities to explore the multi-planar nature of Chaos & the ancient Elemental Evils.
2. I remember reading something about Nishrek & the Banehold (Barrens of Doom & Despair) colliding in a 4th Edition event. Was there any resolution to this? Or is this a total fabrication?
If there is no official explanation, I am considering having BANE & Company(Hoar, Maglibuyet, Hruggek, and Loviatar) conquer the Orc Pantheon... possibly because of a betrayal by Shargaas. This would set up BANE as the main power behind the Orcs & Goblinoids, and the Zhentarim/Orcs/Hobgoblins as the Mercenary Legions of the East to battle Tiamat/Thay. BANE's previous attempts at conquering Faerun through the years have all failed. So, I want BANE and the Zhentarim to take a new approach by selling a new image of themselves as the force that has tamed the threat of the Orc & Goblin Hordes, and is going to "save" the West from the evil Dragons & Wizards of the East.
3. Did Shar's power subside after the Shade's were defeated, or is she still front & center of the Evil Deities?
I didn't particularly like having Shar at the forefront of the Evil Deities. With the return of Mask, I am considering having Shargaas and Set/Sseth/Merrshaulk (related to the betrayal of Shargaas mentioned above) seize control of Shar's portfolio and the Shadow Weave, and become the new primary gods of Evil. Thereby opening up some possibilities to explore the Ancient Empires & the Progenitor Races.
Basically, I want all of the deities to be back in play so-to-speak, but I also want the return of all the deities to serve as catalyst to shake-up the roles/alliances of the deities as well. I think it will seem a bit boring to have the events of the Sundering play out, all the deities return and compete over their place in the Tablets of Fate, and have it simply result in the resumption of the original Status Quo.
Please clarify or critique, anything and everything in this post... and by all means use this scroll to brainstorm more ideas on how you would rewrite the Tablets of Fate!
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:27:53
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2015 : 23:46:41
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Well, if I remember right, the collision of Nishrek and Banehold, was 4e a core event, not a Realms one, and that were the core Bane(diffrent from the Faerun one, i.e. he was born a god), and Gruumsh.
Cyric is quite diffrent from Tharizdun, I think out of the Realmsian deities, Moander was the closest. Unless you intent to make Cyric a sort of avatar of Tharizdun.
Yurtus could also involved in the fall of the orcish pantheon, and possibly revealed as another guise of Tharizdun/Moander. He is a very mysterious deity. As stated in On Hallowed Ground:
quote:
"Almost nothing is known of Yurtrus or his realm, which is commonly called Fleshslough. That's because anyone who enters the realm never leaves, not even avatars sent by other powers. The entrance to the place is two great black-iron doors set into a forbidding hillside in Oinos; the stench of death wafts out every time the doors swing open."
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2015 : 03:20:04
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This is why 4th Edition always trips me up. I thought that since Forgotten Realms was the core setting for 4th Edition, anything that happened as a core event in 4th Edition happened to the Realms... Maybe I'll have to keep equating 4th Edition to Vegas: Anything that happens in 4th Edition, stays in 4th Edition...
On the Cyric/Tharzidun connection... I haven't fully thought through the connection between Cyric and Tharzidun (I know they're ostensibly unrelated entities). However, I did notice that both Tharzidun and Cyric are referred to as "The Black Sun" in various sources. So, I was thinking that if Cyric were somehow connected to Tharzidun (and in turn connected to the multi-verse entity of Chaos) it could justify Cyric's repeated ability to kill or defeat deities that on their home turf that should otherwise defeat or kill him instead... So, I suppose for lack of a better term I am thinking that Cyric may actually be an Avatar for something on AO's level or beyond...
I am looking for ways to bring Moander back into the picture too, perhaps a Dark Trinity between Moander, Cyric, and Ghaunadaur to channel the Elemental Evil Trinity... I'm just floating ideas here.
Perhaps Yurtus could be the key to how Moander re-emerged (Yurtus was an aspect of Moander the entire time)... I had also thought it was possible that Yurtus was how the Orcs envisioned Jergal (Perhaps they are the same entity). I didn't mention Yurtus in my original post, but I have been rolling ideas around in my head about both Yurtus and Shargaas.
Either way, the re-emergence of Eilistraee changing the dynamic of the Drow Pantheon and causing the Drow culture to confront the option of a new path forward, has had me thinking of possible ways to change the dynamics of all the various Racial Pantheons to create new cultural paths for the Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, etc.
Thanks for the ideas Baltas.  |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2015 : 06:56:28
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Other ideas, may be that Gruumsh is a son of Maglubiyet. This is inpired by Markustay's musings, about Gruumsh being Malekith's son, and Malekith being Maglubiyet. This idea also proposed that Corellon and Gruumsh are half-brothers, something that canon played with for some time, sharing he same mother(Titania/Danu) and and diffrent fathers(Freyr and Malekith).
The Forgotten God/Faceless God of Zakhara, could also be connected to Ghaunadaur or Moander. Moander is sometimes called the Forgotten God, and Juiblex, who was in the Realms absorbed by Ghaunadaur, is known as the Faceless Lord, very similary to the title Faceless God. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2015 : 08:54:48
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I just read through Markustay's post... Wow, that's good stuff! I've always operated under the assumption that Gruumsh and Corellon were brothers (perhaps even twins despite their physical differences). I know it's borrowing a bit from Tolkein, but the contrast of the deities and their eternal rivalry always suggested sibling rivalry to me, and the conflicting accounts about the loss of Gruumsh's Eye suggested to me that there was more to the story than what Corellon wanted people to believe. The idea that both Gruumsh and Corellon were competing for Auranshaee's attention fits the bill perfectly.
The mythology about their conflict also juxtaposes their initial dispositions in some ways too. Gruumsh is said to be trying to paralyze Corellon (non-lethal means of conflict), while Corellon responds by permanently disfiguring him (lethal means of conflict). Essentially, painting Corellon as the more villainous brother... All very interesting...
The proposition that Maglubiyet is actually Malekith, and therefore the architect of the schism between the Elves & Drow is a pretty enticing twist. It further paints Corellon as the vain and selfish of the two brothers (since he falsely claims credit for cursing the Drow). And it ties together why Maglubiyet is depicted in a way that reflects the classic Norse Mythology image of a Dark Elf/Dwarf... This further suggests that his "subservient" position as a goblin deity that generally serves other powerful deities is a manipulation by him to be the invisible hand behind those deities... There are a lot of possibilities with this...
Now I have to figure out what to do with Moradin... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2015 : 09:35:54
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Well, I always saw Corellon and Gruumsh, as similar to Hieronymous and Hextor from Greyhawk, who are half-brothers. Especialy that Gary Gygax, stated that Hextor is the God of orcs in his home Greyhawk game.
Hieronymous and Hextor, are in turn in part based on Achilles and Hector from Greek mythology. And in the Illiad, it's Achilles who is the more negative character, with Hector being one of the most sympathetic characters in the Illiad.
One could see Hieronymous as an lawfull aspect of Corellon he set up on Oerth, in order to gather human worshipers.
Hextor also has another handsome aspect, aside from his demonic/orcish six armed one. He is described to look like a black haired version of Hieronymous. I imagine, if we assume Gruumsh and Hextor are the same, Gruumsh can still sometimes assume a atractive form, resembling somewhat Corellon, possibly a dark elf version Corellon with one eye. This may be the form he appears to planar dark elves.
Hextor and Gruumsh even lived on the same plane, Archeon, in first and second edition(and third edition of Greyhawk).
Also, Moradin could be one of the dwarves that gave Auril/The Queen of Air and Darkness the black gem of Tharizdun(Cyric/Moander?). This could be the reason why there exist almost allways some antagonism between elves and dwarves.
I also noticed that Moander faced his final death during the Time of Troubles...the same timethat Cyric rose as a god. It's notable that Cyric the mortal wasn't the monster that Cyric the god is. Maybe a bit of Moander merged with Cyric, right before, or during his ascension?
[EDIT]
And the Dwarves, could have gone originaly to the fey, to protect them from their giant masters. The dwarves could originaly hide in the caverns of Feydark(the Faerie/Feywild version of Underdark), under Maglubiyet/Malekith's rule. This could also caused why sometimes, in Norse mythology, Dark Elves and Dwarves are thought of as the same race. But overtime, the dwarves got independant, thanks to the support of the twin queens(Auril and Titania), Freyr and Corellon. Maglubiyet felt offended that he lost a ton of subjects, and at the lack of gratitude from the dwarves. So this may be the reason why Maglubiyet hates the elven and dwarven pantheon equally.
Maglubiyet could even be the one who tricked Moradin into giving the black gem to Auril, as a part of his revenge on both the dwarves, and the twin queens of fey. |
Edited by - Baltas on 02 Jul 2015 10:01:29 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2015 : 12:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I am brainstorming ideas for adjusting the positions/alliances of the deities in my home campaign, but I have some related questions that I'm trying to reconcile, since I haven't stumbled upon any Lore surrounding these circumstances (I haven't read the Sundering novels yet, so that may be related to my ignorance on these subjects)...
1. Any ideas on how Cyric broke free of his imprisonment in the Supreme Throne?
I am considering making a connection between Ghaunadaur and Cyric in the game to somehow justify it (in part because of various threads on Ghaunadaur/Elemental Evil and Cyric/Tharzidun/Black Sun). Since Lolth failed in her Demonweave gambit, I am looking at the possibility of Cyric and Ghaunadaur replacing Lolth as the evil patrons of the Drow in the Realms. This positions them as the primary gods of Chaos, and creates some opportunities to explore the multi-planar nature of Chaos & the ancient Elemental Evils.
2. I remember reading something about Nishrek & the Banehold (Barrens of Doom & Despair) colliding in a 4th Edition event. Was there any resolution to this? Or is this a total fabrication?
If there is no official explanation, I am considering having Bane & Company(Hoar, Maglibuyet, Hruggek, and Loviatar) conquer the Orc Pantheon... possibly because of a betrayal by Shargaas. This would set up Bane as the main power behind the Orcs & Goblinoids, and the Zhentarim/Orcs/Hobgoblins as the Mercenary Legions of the East to battle Tiamat/Thay. Bane's previous attempts at conquering Faerun through the years have all failed. So, I want Bane and the Zhentarim to take a new approach by selling a new image of themselves as the force that has tamed the threat of the Orc & Goblin Hordes, and is going to "save" the West from the evil Dragons & Wizards of the East.
3. Did Shar's power subside after the Shade's were defeated, or is she still front & center of the Evil Deities?
I didn't particularly like having Shar at the forefront of the Evil Deities. With the return of Mask, I am considering having Shargaas and Set/Sseth/Merrshaulk (related to the betrayal of Shargaas mentioned above) seize control of Shar's portfolio and the Shadow Weave, and become the new primary gods of Evil. Thereby opening up some possibilities to explore the Ancient Empires & the Progenitor Races.
Basically, I want all of the deities to be back in play so-to-speak, but I also want the return of all the deities to serve as catalyst to shake-up the roles/alliances of the deities as well. I think it will seem a bit boring to have the events of the Sundering play out, all the deities return and compete over their place in the Tablets of Fate, and have it simply result in the resumption of the original Status Quo.
Please clarify or critique, anything and everything in this post... and by all means use this scroll to brainstorm more ideas on how you would rewrite the Tablets of Fate!
1. I haven't really thought about how Cyric escaped. Him being stuck in the Supreme Throne didn't seem to really affect his power.
2. Bane conquered the goblinoid pantheon, making them subservient deities to him and presumably subsuming at least part of Nishrek.
3. Shar's activities post-Sundering haven't really been touched on yet. Shade gave her powerful servants, but didn't affect her power in the Realms in any other way. It was the Time of Troubles that broke her mopeyness and inactivity and I don't think Netheril's second dissolution would change that - it just means she has far fewer overpowered agents. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2015 : 13:47:15
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
1. I haven't really thought about how Cyric escaped. Him being stuck in the Supreme Throne didn't seem to really affect his power.
2. Bane conquered the goblinoid pantheon, making them subservient deities to him and presumably subsuming at least part of Nishrek.
3. Shar's activities post-Sundering haven't really been touched on yet. Shade gave her powerful servants, but didn't affect her power in the Realms in any other way. It was the Time of Troubles that broke her mopeyness and inactivity and I don't think Netheril's second dissolution would change that - it just means she has far fewer overpowered agents.
Right on Hashimashadoo, the fact that Cyric's imprisonment seemed entirely ineffectual is another thing pushing me toward a connection to Tharzidun/Chaos, or some sort way Cyric can access the multi-verse that the Realms Deities are unaware of... I want there to be some sort of rationale that justifies why it had no discenrable effect, or why Cyric was able to circumvent it. I know it's probably just the fact that the designers didn't figure out anything to do with it, but I think it's an opportunity for a plot hook that could tie together a bunch of the unknown questions about him.
If Shar is still theoretically in proactive deity mode after her failure with the Shades, I definitely need to figure out a way to sideline her. There are a lot of deities that would want her portfolio, and control of the Shadow Weave... And I don't want to just put both the Weave and Shadow Weave under Mystra's umbrella. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2015 : 20:13:18
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Also, are Bhaal and Myrkul working with Bane again in your realms?
It's also interesting that aparently both Myrkul, and Bhaal, became liches long before even meeting Bane. Myrkul is Murghomite, and he created the crown of horns before -2237 DR, and is theorized is theorized he was involved with Imaskar(specificaly, he was the crown prince of Murghom, and the Imaskari basicaly ruled Murghom before the coming of the Untheri Mulholandi gods so...). Bhaal was originaly the Netherese Arcanist Tharlagaunt Bale, as detailed here:
http://realmssecretariat.com/jergal/
It makes me wonder if Bane wasn't maybe a death kinght, or chosen of some deity or archfiend. The only thing we know about Bane, is that he came from another world than Toril. Ed wrote he based partly Bane a bit on the Babylonian Devil King Druaga, from the 1e Deities and Demigods book, partly on the Witch King of Lord of the Rings.
And with Druaga, there were a few clues in the otiginal Deities & Demigods book, that he may be the same as Asmodeus(Druaga is the ruler of the "Devil World", has a weapon a Ruby mace, that's also his symbol, resides in Baator). This all made me wonder if Bane wasn't maybe a chosen, or Death Knight of Asmodeus/Druaga, who came to Faerun, possibly with the Untheri and Mulholandi gods and servitors. I think Bane could be become independant, and join forces first with Myrkul, and later Bhaal/Tharlagaunt Bale.
This may give Bane further motivation to wage war over Thay and Unther, as he would like to reclaim "his" ancestral lands he has rights to, in his mind.
Also, what do you like my ideas about Gruumsh, Moradin, Cyric and Maglubiyet, from my last post? |
Edited by - Baltas on 02 Jul 2015 20:27:49 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2015 : 04:46:16
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Baltas, your last post sent me off reading and researching Heironeous, Hextor, and the Fey for most of the day. Great stuff. The bit about bringing Moradin into the picture by having Maglubiyet manipulate him into finding the black gem and giving it to the Fey is excellent.
I totally noticed the ascension of Cyric coincided with the end of Moander... But I don't think I want Cyric to simply be a vessel for Moander's return. I am envisioning Cyric as a more unique entity. Possibly something along the lines a type of Vampiric Deity that needs to feed on divine power by constantly attacking and killing other gods. Or perhaps something like the "Highlander" where he thinks he will become the Supreme Chaos if he can kill and absorb all the other gods.
Perhaps it's ironic considering Ed's commentary on the subject, but I have always envisioned Bane being more like Gilgamesh (the original epic ruler who wanted to become a god). The parallels between Druaga and Asmodeus play well into this too, since Bane and Asmodeus are competing forces for Evil and Order.
On the topic of BANE, Bhaal, and Myrkul... I actually don't want them working together this time around. If Bhaal and Myrkul were Liches prior to their ascension it actually plays well into my idea. I wanted Kelemvor and Jergal to have a schism over the return of all the previously dead gods. Jergal wants to bring BANE, Bhaal, and Myrkul back under his wing. But, Kelemvor views this as type of Deity Level Necromancy, and thinks all the dead gods should remain dead. Bane is fed up with continually having his World Domination plans fail, and getting betrayed continuously along the way. BANE never wants to serve or be betrayed by Jergal or Asmodeus or any other deity ever again, and has Vengeance on his mind now that Hoar is in his corner. BANE and Kelemvor decide they are finished with Jergal, and become allies to try and "save" the Realms from the scourges of Necromancy and Immortal Deities.
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:32:13 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2015 : 09:24:33
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I'm really glad you like the stuff I posted, and you did some very interesting musings on Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Kelemvor and Jergal yourself.
Also, about Cyric getting out of his imprisonment,one of the most interesting parts in the Grand History of the Realms, was that the Supreme Throne, was originaly created by the batrachi, one of the creator races. Batrachi were masters of summoning, and interplanar travel, so Cyric might have recovered some of the creator races spells and rituals hidden in the Supreme Throne. He could send those spells to his worshippers, in order to summon him from the Supreme Throne, or open portal between Toril and his realm, efficently ending his imprissonment. We know that the batrachi spells were strong enough to release Asgorath, from her imprisonment by gods. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2015 : 12:48:01
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Also, if Bane would have both hobgoblins, and orcs, worshipping him, and as a part of Zhentarim, there could start to appear these guys, Uruks:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s5ih?New-Race-Concept-HalfOrc-and-HalfHobgoblin#1
Another possibility of orc-hobgoblin crossbreed, are yellow orcs, orcs with aparently hobgoblin blood. Yellow orcs are from Mystara, and are described in The Orcs of Thar sourcebook, but the book can be easily adapted to Realms, and there are even tips in it to do it in the book. It helps that both Mystara and Faerun have a region called Thar.
[EDIT]
Another interesting hybrid, would be the balebourne orcs, from Dave Arneson's Blackmoor setting. Described as a crossbreed of orcs and goblins, and they are very intelligent(they actualy have a +2 bonus to intelligence). Although seeing how Blackmoor could take place in the distant past of either Mystara, or Oerth, I wonder if the balebourne orcs weren't meant to be the missing link between orcs and hobgoblins. Although on the other hand, actual hobgoblins were allready present in Blackmoor, making this a bit less probable. |
Edited by - Baltas on 06 Jul 2015 00:23:01 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2015 : 18:51:25
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It's funny that you bring up Uruks, considering I've been essentially using Bane as the deification of Gilgamesh... Here are a couple of other overlapping parallels:
1. In Sumerian the name Gilgamesh is pronounced "Bilgamesh", and the "ANE" is an acronym commonly used to refer to the "Ancient Near East"... so, theoretically "BANE" could itself be an acronym title combining his true name and origin...
2. Gilgamesh is the King of Uruk in the Epic Myth, so I was already thinking of ways to incorporate the term "Uruk" because of it's similarity to "Orc".
3. Enkidu is a "wild-man" that is created by Aruru, he is forever changed and the wild beasts flee from him after his love affair with Shamhat, he then joins Gilgamesh on his Epic, and is sent to the Underworld at the conclusion. So, my parallel logic on this one is:
Wild-man = Lycanthropy
Aruru = Selune
Shamat = Mystra
Underworld = Fugue Plane
Therefore: Enkidu = Kelemvor... and BANE must become allies with Kelemvor to achieve their ultimate goals of rewriting the Tablets of Fate, and becoming the rulers of both the living and the dead. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:31:39 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2015 : 19:34:00
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Interesting, so will you syncretize/merge Bane with Gilgeam? There are some similarizies between the two, and they both represent similar aspects of Lawful Evil. Although Aruru, is a bit more similar to Chauntea, than to Selune.
Selune, seems to be more similar to Nammu-Tiamat, especialy that Tiamat had some connection to the moon, as it was sometimes thought as the remains of Tiamat's upper body, with the Earth being the remains of the upper body.
About Tiamat herself, she could also become chaotic evil in your campaign, after her recent defeat in conclusion of Tyranny of Dragons. She canonicaly partialy absorbed the other dragon god, Azharul, who seemed to be the original master of her domain in Baator. Tiamat, in the semicanonical "Reign of Dragons" of Brian R. James, from Candlekeep Compendium IV, shown that Tiamat was originaly Chaotic Neutral, so she should become Chaotic Evil, not Lawful Evil, when becoming evil. My theory is that Tiamat partialy absorbed Azharul, which caused her alignment to shift from Chaotic Evil, to Azharul's alignment(Lawful Evil). After her latest defeat, Azharul could be unmerged from her, causing her to revert to an Chaotic Aligment. Especialy that Tiamat served Bane in during the 4th edition, as Bane held Azharul's husk hostage.
Revelant links:
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=7
So what do ou think of my idea of Cyric using the ancient Batrachi magic, to release himself? After all, the Batrachi were described as the Supreme Thrones creators, and original inhabitants, so they probably left a lot of their stuff there. |
Edited by - Baltas on 06 Jul 2015 20:08:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2015 : 01:18:35
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Interesting stuff.
In my own homebrew material I have it where hobgoblins are the offshoot of Goblin/Orc pairings. Rather then create entire new races for hybrids, I try to work-out the interrelations of existing races. They have the cunning of goblins and the brute strength of orcs. Also, they originated in the Taan (Hordelands) region (so they may have been a breeding program by the Imaskari or someone else). At this point, they've been around long enough to be their own race.
I really like the Bane/Gilgeam angle - makes sense. I am also toying with the 'Dark Sun' thing - my version of the 'Elemental Evil god' is an amorphous, cthonic mass at that exists in The Far Realms - a place outside of normal time & space. So the Universe is like an ever-expanding bubble within the 'cosmic soup' (Ginnungagap) of the Elemental malstrom (the original, natural state of the universe before something said "Let there be light!"). That primordial, antideluvian mass is the chaos that was literally expunged from the mind of god (the universe itself). It can't get back in, but if it ever did, it would plunge the entire universe back into the elemental soup from whence it came. Thus, it creates smaller versions of itself by corrupting beings that already exist on the other side of the barrier - creatures like Tharizun and Ghaunadaur, to help advance its goal of obliterating the universe (which it thinks is obscene). Cyric could be a larval state for one of those - a proto-elemental evil. All different beings, but all part of a greater whole. Even Cthulhu itself is just an offshoot... an illithid offshoot.
And lastly, the barrier that separates our universe from the Far Realms - the 'skin' of the bubble - is the realm of Eberus, lord of darkness. His daughter - Shar - is a mere 'shadow' of him. Selune is not only her sister... she is also her mother. For in the beginning there was only darkness, which gave birth to the Light, and then the light & darkness together created shadow.
Shaar isn't so much evil as she is insane - she is 'unbalanced' by her dual nature. She wants so much to destroy the light, but she is too crazy to realize that shadow cannot exist without it.
And thats just a small piece of my own proto-cosmology. I am constantly tweaking it... especially when I read good stuff by other fans.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jul 2015 01:24:44 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2015 : 08:58:05
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Fascinating musings about the Far Realms Markustay, although I myself think Cthulhu predates the Illithids. I think that Cthulhu may be the same as the Obyrith Lord Dagon, as some have theorized that Dagon and Cthulhu may be the same, with Dagon(and quite possibly Mother Hydra), being avatars of sorts of Cthulhu, while it's reall body sleeps in R'lyeh.
Mind Flayers themselves, I think might have been created by the Batrachi. The Batrachi were originaly giant octopi, and said to have created the doppelgangers, including the greater kind. Greater Doppelgangers themselves have quite similar abilities to illithids.
The illithids are though to come from the end of time in some versions, and have been noted to experiment with doppelgangers. So it's possible that in the distant future, greater doppelgangers will evolve into mind flayers, possibly after consuming (ironicaly) a gith species. Illithids may allready experiment with doppelgangers, to ensure their own evolution.
It's also possible that Dagon was among the great school of sea deities, that the Batrachi worshipped, and Ramenos was said to be part of. The Temple under the roots of the Grandfather Tree, in the depts of the High forest, is implied to be built by the Batrachi, or a coalition of Creator Races containing Batrachi, as it has a statue of Ramenos. But It also houses a portal to Dagon's domain.
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20011031a
[EDIT]
Also, I really like your idea of hobgoblins, being orc/goblin crossbreeds. It has sense, and some evidence in canon.
That's why think that the balebourne orcs, who were descibed as orc/goblin hybrids, could be the ancestors of hobgoblins. Although on Toril, they probably were named 'Taan Orcs', or something like that. Balebourne orcs would fit quite well in the Taan region, as they are semi-oriental, and even use Katanas. |
Edited by - Baltas on 07 Jul 2015 17:35:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2015 : 21:20:01
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Where are Balebourne Orcs from? Google turned up nothing.
The modern Hobgoblin (literally, 'High Goblin' in some dark tongue) would be thousands upon thousands of years 'in the making', so traits have sorted themselves out and they've become a stable race of their own.
There is a precedent for this sort of thing in FR - Half-Elves have practically become their own race, like in the Yuirwood (Aglarond). In my one Candlekeep Compendium article I ran with that, and created 'Helf' race over in the gulf between Maztica and Katashaka (they are very similar to Hawaiians in culture and even appearance... except for the pointy ears). Also, in some places (mostly Vassa around Palishuk) Half-Orcs are 'breeding true' and starting to become their own race as well.
I think thats how we probably got a LOT of our D&D races - just constant cross-breeding over tens of thousands of years. Evolution works in the RW, so why not in D&D? (divergence of species)
Bugbears are another - I picture them being Orcs and something else - maybe Quaggoth? Aren't 'Blues' an offshoot of goblins and gnomes? (actually, I am probably thinking of Xvarts). Perhaps the 'Blues' are a male gnome/female goblin cross, and the Xvarts are a female gnome/male goblin cross? Both have psionic abilities, IIRC (crossbreeds do tend to have superior size and abilities over their parents).
Anyhow, as for Cthulhu - he wasn't really supposed to be a god, I think. I am not a big Lovecraft fan, but from what I understand Cthulhu started out as a 'High Priest' of his race (whatever that was), and he ascended to a state of godhood (or something very similar to godhood). I think Hastur was always supposed to be a god - not sure. Cthulhu cycle stuff isn't my forté.
Regardless, my over-mythology/cosmology has it where there were several (bizarre) races that evolved naturally within the timeless chaos that was the proto-verse - those would be many of the aberrations. Others were probably bred by them as slave-races (I think the Grell may be one of those). If you've ever read any of the Wellworld books, this would be a similar concept to the 'Markovan Universe' that pre-existed our own. Then something happened - the universe 'wokeup', as if from a bad dream, and expunged the chaos from its burgeoning sentience. That 'pushing outward' effect is why the universe is still expanding (away from a central 'point of light' no bigger then the head of a pin... where a million angles dance). That infinitely small point, BTW, is the point of the Endless Spire - it where all the 'light' (good/sentience/soulstuff/warmth/etc) is generated from (literally, "the bright center of the universe").
So, in my Homebrew stuff, the far Realms is really the 'default setting' for the universe - how it was before it grew a consciousness. The creatures that lived there do not like what happened, and want it to go back to the way it was (that chaotic, elemental soup). Cthulhu actually exists within this universe, although he may have come from there. The only one trapped there is Chthon itself - the 'anti-sentience'. The illithids, beholders, etc are all trying to accomplish their goals, either on their own, or following some 'deity' (and ascended member of their own race, in most cases). With all their power they should have been successful aeons ago... but because of their chaotic nature they simply can't work together on one, organized plan (like demons).
In fact, thanks to the 4e lore we know that demons are actually corrupted elementals, which works very well within my model. The elementals are created by grafting a small piece of 'soulstuff' (spirit) to some physical matter (a more permanent form of this would be a golem). That matter comes from THIS universe - the one where all the 'chaos' (Far Realms) was expunged. However, the more powerful the elemental summoned, the more it gets noticed by 'the powers that be', and the more likely some aberration/dark god will try to infect it with corruption (thus, creating a demon).
So, yeah.. it all started with a 'Big Bang', and were two opposing forces which turned into factions which have splintered into everything else (outsiders and primes included). This is why we can have Gilgeam as Bane, or Bane come back as Iyachtu Xvim; the physical matter that makes up all beings is just a temporary housing - its that 'soulstuff' inside that matters, and it all originated from the same source. This is why we see so many 'gods' on so many worlds that are so similar - everything is just an 'echo' of everything else. the further you get away from the fracturing point, the more diverse two spirits will be.
Think of the universe as a giant pyramid scheme. Maybe god's true name is Amway.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2015 22:27:00 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2015 : 21:56:49
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Fascinating idea with the universe as a giant pyramid scheme.
Cthulhu himself is conected to the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu. The Star Spawn themsevles though, seem to be created/born from Cthulhu himself/itself.
Cthulhu seems to at least somewhat 'divine', being the child of Nug, and grandchild of Shub-Niggurath and Yog-Shothoth, acording to the family tree done by Lovecraft himself:
https://lovecraftianscience.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/533420_187908098002261_352899162_n.jpg
And yes, it's also the family tree of H.P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith
Balebourne Orcs are from Dave Arneson's Blackmoor setting. Blackmoor can be though of as taking place on Oerth's or Mystara's distant past, so I thought that Balebourne Orcs could be the Hobgoblins directs ancestors, seeing that they would be from a distant past.
Here is how one of them looks like:
http://fav.me/d5ur79y
Good idea with Bugbears being orc/quaggoth halfbreeds. In the Polish version of Dungeons and Dragons, bugbears are actualy most often referred as Orklins...
Xvarts, were explained in 4e as corrupted gnomes, but if combined your idea that goblinoids come from fey(which I love), I think Xvarts may be living fossils of the first goblinoids. Xvarts, were originaly called Svarts, a shortened version of Svartalfar. This, combined with the theory that Malekith/Maglubiyet was the king of Svartalfar, and Svartalfar being predecors of goblinoids, makes the name xvart/svart very interesting.
Xvarts themselves seem to be based on the on how Drow, or rather Trow, were originaly described in Orkney Folklore.
Here are three folkloric trow/drow, mocking the player character(the Bard) in the 2004 The Bard's Tale game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHF5uoonR-c
[EDIT]
Also, if Bane is Gilgamesh, and therefore probably Gilgeam, one could say that the Gilgeam in Unther, was just a highly powerfull avatar of Bane/Gilgamesh. Also, as Tiamat was said to follow Gilgeam after the spirit of Gilgeam, to kill him on his Outer Plane, I guess that could make Tiamat, not Torm be responclible for Bane's "final" death during the Time of Troubles. Bane could fake his death in a fight with Torm, as an atempt to reconnect with his home plane in Black Bastion/Archeon, after seeing the Tablets of Fate plan was a failure. But his plans would be twarthed by Tiamat. This could very well build up the animocity between Tiamat and Bane.
[EDIT2]
And yeah, Cthulhu was the Hight Priest of Azathoth, but it was also to shown how much more powerfull than anything else is Azathoth itself, being literaly a "God of Gods", despite it's mindlessness.
[EDIT3]
After researching a bit, xvarts are stated to be based on svart-alfar, as they appeared in The Weirdstone of Brisingamen. |
Edited by - Baltas on 08 Jul 2015 16:55:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2015 : 17:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Also, about Cyric getting out of his imprisonment,one of the most interesting parts in the Grand History of the Realms, was that the Supreme Throne, was originaly created by the batrachi, one of the creator races. Batrachi were masters of summoning, and interplanar travel, so Cyric might have recovered some of the creator races spells and rituals hidden in the Supreme Throne. He could send those spells to his worshippers, in order to summon him from the Supreme Throne, or open portal between Toril and his realm, efficently ending his imprissonment. We know that the batrachi spells were strong enough to release Asgorath, from her imprisonment by gods.
It seems to me that the deities that imprisoned Cyric would have considered a scenario like this, and blocked it before it could have happened.
However... What if, ages past, the batrachi had imprisoned part of a deity in the Supreme Throne? The weakened deity still exists elsewhere, and is active somewhere on Toril. Cyric (or his followers, perhaps guided by some cunning surviving Batrachi or one of the races they created) finds the imprisoned part of the deity, and absorbs it. This connects him to the non-imprisoned greater component of the other deity, and this connection is what allows him to escape (and likely hunt down and kill that other deity, which would be a lesser power, at best).
It's rough, and certainly needs some polish, but it's an idea I like. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2015 : 18:29:20
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Good idea with the imprisoned deity Wooly.
But about Batrachi, it's hard to tell if even gods could completely stop their magic. I mean, they summoned Asgorath, a primordial who was in a probably much tighter cage than even Cyric. And part of the extremely potent, god defying magic of Imaskar, was apparently reverse engineered from Batrachi ruins. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2015 : 18:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Good idea with the imprisoned deity Wooly.
But about Batrachi, it's hard to tell if even gods could completely stop their magic. I mean, they summoned Asgorath, a primordial who was in a probably much tighter cage than even Cyric. And part of the extremely potent, god defying magic of Imaskar, was apparently reverse engineered from Batrachi ruins.
The issue for me is that if you go with the angle of the Batrachi doing the deed, you've got to answer several questions. How had this group remained to do the deed? How did they overcome the collective power of the deities of the Faerûnian pantheon? Why did those deities just sit and watch this happen? And most importantly, why did the Batrachi decide to free Cyric?
The Imaskari put up a barrier to keep interlopers out, which is not the same thing as containing a native. I'm not familiar with the Asgorath scenario, but I'd suspect some similar caveat made it possible -- I don't think any group of mortals should be able to overcome the power of multiple native deities.
My approach takes out the angle of mortal magic beating deific magic. You dodge the trope and are left with far fewer things to explain or handwave. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2015 : 21:10:30
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Well, I didn't mean that the Batrachi themselves would help Cyric. I meant that Cyric could find Batrachi rituals hidden in the Supreme Throne. The Supreme Throne, according to TGHotR, was created by the Batrachi. It was probably also important base of operations for them, as aperently the Batrachi themselves named it the Supreme Throne.
Cyric would give the rituals to his worshippers, who would cast them, with Cyric himself empowering the spell up to a level.
Asgorath was one of the primordials, imprisoned after the Dawn War, by all of the oldest deities of the Realms. She aparently couldn't even comunicate in any way from her imprissonment. Cyric was on the other hand, only 3 greater deities, one of whom (Tyr), is probably still dead when the ritual would be cast. His imprisonment seems relatively tame compared to the primordials one, seeing how he can still communicate, and grant spells.
Asgorath herself, was summoned by the Batrachi to be used against Annam and his children. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2015 : 22:01:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, I didn't mean that the Batrachi themselves would help Cyric. I meant that Cyric could find Batrachi rituals hidden in the Supreme Throne. The Supreme Throne, according to TGHotR, was created by the Batrachi. It was probably also important base of operations for them, as aperently the Batrachi themselves named it the Supreme Throne.
Cyric would give the rituals to his worshippers, who would cast them, with Cyric himself empowering the spell up to a level.
See, I would think that'd be one of the first scenarios those imprisoning Cyric would think of: him directing his own escape by telling his followers how to do it and enabling them to do so. It's like putting someone in prison and not making sure he's not carrying keys or lockpicking equipment: no one intending to hold a prisoner would do that.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Asgorath was one of the primordials, imprisoned after the Dawn War, by all of the oldest deities of the Realms. She aparently couldn't even comunicate in any way from her imprissonment. Cyric was on the other hand, only 3 greater deities, one of whom (Tyr), is probably still dead when the ritual would be cast. His imprisonment seems relatively tame compared to the primordials one, seeing how he can still communicate, and grant spells.
Asgorath herself, was summoned by the Batrachi to be used against Annam and his children.
Hmmm. Gotta be something additional going on, here. Mortal magic should never be able to trump deific magic, except in very rare, specialized circumstances -- and I don't see this as one of them. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2015 : 22:12:35
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With the Mortal magic not being able to trump deific magic, I also think it's certainly the way in most cases. But with Batrachi, it really seems they were the masters in terms of conjuration, like summoning, and creating portals, so their magic may be really one of those exceptions. And as I wrote, the version I proposed the worshippers of Cyric would use, isn't entirely their, Cyric would also help them with his deific magic.
With the Supreme Throne, Tyr, Sune, and Lathander may have quite probably not known it was originaly a Batrachi created domain. Or not could be not able to discover and remove all of the batrachi secrets from it, if they known. Or know enough about the Batrachi, to protect against all of their spells and rituals. After all, the Batrachi are still pretty enigmatic.
Although I must admit Wooly, that your idea is indeed in a way less complicated, as it does indeed remove the mortal magic vs deific magic discussion from the equation. But as I wrote above, my propostion would be more an mortal and deific magic combination, rather than purely mortal magic. |
Edited by - Baltas on 09 Jul 2015 04:19:58 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2015 : 22:37:31
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Wow! I didn't have time to follow-up on this in couple days, but I have a lot rolling around in my head right now after reading through all these posts.
My cosmology concepts are all tied to the Golden Spirals, Base 10 sequences, Prime Numbers, Duality, and Quintessence... Possibly because I watched too much Star Trek as a kid. The short version is, that Quintessence is the 5th Element (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Q) that enables visions of the mind to become reality (Magic).
I also think I've finally decide how I'm going to frame the structure of the multiverse:
The Alpha Omega (AO) is anything that defines a reality by interacting with any of the Infinity Objects (IO).
That interaction generates a Continuum Helix of Infinity (CHI) and a
Paradox Spiral of Infinity (PSI) which are "things" that fill a reality with Infinite Questions (IQ) and End Everything Else (EEE). |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2015 : 23:45:30
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Interesting concepts Cyrinishad. As I understand, are Afla Omega is meant to Ao, or at least connected to him?
And aboute the End Everything Else, is it maybe connected to the Elder Elemental Evil? As they share the same arconym (EEE).
Another thing that may interest you, is that Ao, and the Tablets of Fate, have a stricking similarity to the Mesopotomian God Anu, and his Tablets of Fate...
On the other hand, Tiamat's firstborn child, An-Ur, is also connected from his name to Anu, having the Sumerian version of the sky gods name (An). Ur is obviously a refernce to the Sumerian city, but Ur (although usualy as a prefix), can also mean "original"/"first". |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2015 : 01:42:54
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That's pretty much how I'm thinking Baltas, that there are actually an infinite number of AO and IO interactions that cause everything, and therefore infinites types of IQ and EEE... and that the Elder Elemental Evil is one the results of EEE.
Another thing that's going through my head is that 2nd order of angels in Judaism and Christianity are called the "Ophanim" which are described as "Thrones" "Wheels" or "Many-Eyed Ones". The 9th order of angels are called the "Cherubim" are described as being the order just above the mortal realm, and are described as having "Four Faces". Additionally, it is said the when the Ophanim contain the spirit of the Cherubim they can move... I'm thinking I'm going to tie this together with why the Supreme Throne has been in housed in different planes over time, as well as something to do with Lathander, Tyr, Sune, and Cyric all being at the Supreme Throne at the same time. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2015 : 17:13:27
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My home campaign had two sessions over the weekend (3 player group). I decided that I still like the idea of BANE conquering Gruumsh... It plays into the parallel of Gilgamesh conquering the Giant Humbaba. I am using that conflict as a rationale as to why the events in Tyranny of Dragons, and Elemental Evil Adventure series caused the Moonsea to be under such dire threats... BANE was unable to help his forces in Faerun, because he was in the midst of a planar conflict.
Here is the version of events that has been adopted by the High Imperceptor:
BANE confirms the Orc Myth of the conflict between Corellon & Gruumsh... Gruumsh always had One Eye. Shargaas and Yurtus were nowhere to be found when Gruumsh called for their support. BANE tears the Eye from Gruumsh's skull in the conflict. Boghtru blindsides BANE, knocking him away from his father. But, Gruumsh doesn't realize it... Blinded and Enraged he lashes out and kills his own son. Luthic tries to help her only son; Gruumsh strikes her as well but she isn't killed. Ilneval sees the woman he loves & Mother his people struck down, he sees what Gruumsh truly is without the EYE, a Blind Raging Demon of the Abyss. Ilneval hears BANE yell "Now you finally see the Truth!" Luthic cries out... Ilneval charges Gruumsh and plunges his sword into the Monster's skull, killing him. BANE smiles and the EYE he holds in his Gauntlet of Tyranny begins to emit Green Fire. Ilneval kneels down to help Luthic up, and Maglubiyet and Hruggek circle around them as if they are about to move in for the kill. Bane says "Swear fealty to me, and your loyalty to the mother and heart of your people shall be rewarded!" Luthic looks up at Ilneval and nods. Ilneval replies, "I Swear It!" Green Lightning leaps out from the EYE and strikes Ilneval, Maglubiyet, and Hruggek. Maglubiyet and Hruggek burst into Green Flames and their fiery energy swirls around Ilneval. Luthic sees Ilneval metamorphosed by the Green Fire. BANE's voice booms, "As a Phoenix rises from the ashes, claim your true destiny, and declare your True Name!" The being standing before Luthic raises his head, looks into the Flame of the Tyrant's Eye, and declares his name, "MALEKITH!" |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:37:14 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2015 : 19:23:50
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| Interestingly, so did Ineval got merged with Hruggek and Maglubiyet? Were the 3 goblinoid gods, fragments of Malekith all along? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2015 : 22:22:20
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It would be difficult for me to do the 'quotey thing', so I'll do a bullet-list instead:
• Azathoth would be just anther name for my 'Chthon' - a formless mass of anti-sentience who's only true goal is to destroy the universe. However, because it is 'Chaos Incarnate', its plans change constantly and it cannot focus long-enough on anything to see it to fruition (despite technically being 'all powerful', it seems to be stuck in a cycle of failure). This is the part of the pre-verse (that elemental, chaos-soup) that was expunged in order to create a rationale universe (the Universe itself = GOD... or 'the force', or Brahman, or Nature, or however else someone wants to spin it). Psionics dominated that proto-universe, and that is why nearly all aberrations have some form of psionic ability. Azathoth could also be thought of as a giant ball of psionic power (and is in chaos because it is EVERY thought that ever was, and ever will be, ALL at the same time. In other words, PURE MADNESS). Lastly, could Azathoth = Asgorath?
•The Fracturing: That first moment of cosmic sentience - "Let there be light!" - was also the very first 'fracturing', which is what EVERY spirit/being in the universe came from. That first sentience then had thoughts, which became beings in their own right - those were the Supernals. In science, these 'beings' would be called dimensions, and there should be at least 11 of them (although there could always be more - only a handful are known to mortals, such as Kronus, Gaea, and Vishnu). They are responsible for keeping order within the universe. The only one to have 'perished' was Ymir, who represented the third dimension, or 'substance'. His body became the Prime Material Plane. This happened during The Godwar, and Death came into existence; everything born after that time is imperfect and will eventually die. It was also when the First World (a cosmology very similar to that of the Norse) was destroyed and the New Multiverse created (further fracturing). Everything in the universe is the result of something 'higher up' splitting into other things. Gary Gygax actually talked a bit about this in the very first issue of The Dragon (the multiverse concept, and how everything is just a distorted reflection of something else).
•Batrachi: I link them to the Shadvari - those 'shadowy creatures' the pre-existed the current universe (which is really the third, now that I think about it) - and then also think that the Shadvari were some primordial form of Slaadi (The first Batrachi Exarchs/demigods?). The one and only Shadvari we saw (in a novel) was 'reptilian' and outside the laws of the normal universe in many respects. They are NOT from the pre-verse (aberrations/Far Realms), they were just one form the Batarachi took before the First World was destroyed in the War of Light & Darkness (The Godwar, which was instigated by agents of Chthon). All five Creatori (Creator Races) existed on that First World, as did the Giants, Dwarves, and Dragons.
•The Fey: I like the way you connected the Xvarts/Svarts to the original fey, before they split into the Seelie and Unseelie camps. It shoe-horns nicely with my own musings on Malekith and the Eleven/Fey/Vanir mythos. The Fey, like the other Creatori, were one of FIVE races created by the gods in the First World, One race for each element (The Primordial Elemental lords sponsored these). All of those were born before death entered the world (so they are immortals - unlike their children, who would always be mortal, although some - like the Elves - are long-lived). This corresponds to your use of the Five elements as well (I have it where the 5th element is really 'alloy', called 'life' or even 'wood' or 'metal' by some, and combines aspects of the other four elements). My 5th element = 'life', and in Ed's original Realms, Life = Magic, ergo, if your 'Q' = magic, then we've come full circle and are talking abut the same thing here.
•Cyric: As much as I hate talking about the little weasel, I like your ideas with this guy as well. I like Wooly's idea with the 'pieces of a fallen god' being hidden, and it could help explain a LOT of inconsistencies if we really wanted to ring every drop out of it. The mortal Cyric was VERY different from his deific counterpart... why is that? Sure, they're both jerks, and you could explain-away his sudden megalomania by saying 'Godhood' fed his ego (I'm sure it would), but he went from being cunning to being Insane. Thats like Mr. Moriarty turning into The Joker. What if he found a piece of that fallen god soon after becoming a god himself? What if he absorbed that, and thats what gave him his first dose of insanity. And what if that deity wasn't just bisected - it was fractured (going back to that concept)? What if Cyric found clues that lead him to that first piece, and each piece leads him to another? What if he is slowly acquiring the power of some primordial uber-power that was sundered during the Godwar? That would explain much, including how he was even able to stand up to AO (albeit temporarily). You could even throw Mask into the mix - either as another piece of that ancient, shadowy power, or just as an instigator (which could also lead back to Shar, who's another deity that doesn't seem to be too sane at times). It could also be another aspect of Chthon, like Tharizdun or ghaunadaur. Someone mentioned Cyric maybe absorbing a piece of Moander earlier - that fits right in.
•Mortal magic vs Deific Magic: I think when we go back far enough - like when the Batrachi walked the world (BEFORE The War of Light & Darkness) - we are just splitting hairs. I think with each incarnation of a god of magic (Mystryl/Mystra/whatever), they set more 'safety protocols' up in the system, artificially limiting mortal magic. Also, since the Five Creator Races pre-dated death itself, they were NOT 'mortal'. They were just much weaker versions of gods themselves (exarch/demigod tier).
•Blackmoor Unleashed! Love that you got the Balebourne Orcs from Blackmoor! Thats PERFECT!!! In my own musings, the original human Creator Race was the Blackmoorians - a very dark and self-serving race with a flare for 'inspired brilliance'. Unlike the other Creatori, they dabbled with technology as well, and used it to amplify their already awesome magical skills. Yes, I have it where the very first humans were a Steampunk civilization. They spread all over that first world, often greatly disturbing existing ecosystems (which were not only fairly new, but hand-built by gods!) Humans were ever the 'trouble makers', and yet, at the same time, the gods were fascinated by them. No matter what barriers you threw in their way, they found a way to get around it. They were even the first to figure out they could ascend to godhood (become deities)! Humans literally 'hack the universe'. When that first world was destroyed in The Godwar, like the other Creator races, they were spread throughout the new multiverse - this is why you can find Blackmoor ruins on several different worlds (many worlds should have them, but the name 'Blackmoor' is long forgotten, and most of the ruins turned to dust). I think the Citadel of the Raven may even be a Blackmoor ruin. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2015 22:33:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2015 : 00:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
•Cyric: As much as I hate talking about the little weasel, I like your ideas with this guy as well. I like Wooly's idea with the 'pieces of a fallen god' being hidden, and it could help explain a LOT of inconsistencies if we really wanted to ring every drop out of it. The mortal Cyric was VERY different from his deific counterpart... why is that? Sure, they're both jerks, and you could explain-away his sudden megalomania by saying 'Godhood' fed his ego (I'm sure it would), but he went from being cunning to being Insane. Thats like Mr. Moriarty turning into The Joker. What if he found a piece of that fallen god soon after becoming a god himself? What if he absorbed that, and thats what gave him his first dose of insanity. And what if that deity wasn't just bisected - it was fractured (going back to that concept)? What if Cyric found clues that lead him to that first piece, and each piece leads him to another? What if he is slowly acquiring the power of some primordial uber-power that was sundered during the Godwar? That would explain much, including how he was even able to stand up to AO (albeit temporarily). You could even throw Mask into the mix - either as another piece of that ancient, shadowy power, or just as an instigator (which could also lead back to Shar, who's another deity that doesn't seem to be too sane at times). It could also be another aspect of Chthon, like Tharizdun or ghaunadaur. Someone mentioned Cyric maybe absorbing a piece of Moander earlier - that fits right in.
To add a bit more to it... This fallen deity could have been imprisoned millennia ago, long before mortal memory. Jergal watched over the imprisoned chunk of semi-dead deity (a godshard, perhaps), and then Bane did, as well.
Cyric either never got the memo to leave the godshard alone, or he was so obsessed with his feud with Mystra 2.0 and/or his failure to find Kelemvor's soul that he decided to mess with it.
You could expand it even further... What if the godshard was able to expand some influence on its captors? Perhaps part of the reason Jergal abdicated was because he was tired of its attempts to influence him. Perhaps Bane succumbed, at least in part, to those whispers, and that's why he decided stealing the Tablets of Fate was a good idea -- perhaps he saw them as a divine version of the Nether Scrolls.
Going this way, Cyric's descent into madness could have been because he simply lacked the strength of will to resist the godshard's whispers -- or he was too fearful/paranoid to ignore them.
Heck, perhaps another one of these godshards lies somewhere under the base of the Wall of the Faithless. The Wall was constructed, in part, to contain the godshard and its influences; the Wall's slow consumption of souls continuously renews the bindings on that particular godshard.
This thing could even be something akin to Krynn's Chaos or an Elder Elemental Evil, hence the difficulty in fully containing it. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Jul 2015 00:48:45 |
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The time has come to Rewrite the Tablets of Fate!
