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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 12:50:05
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http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1760014
The protagonist, Alexandria, is the daughter of the married couple Qilue Veladorn (yes, you read that right) and Drizzt. Qilue and Drizzt! Furthermore, the author drags in Liriel and Fyodor (spoiler, highlight to read: who is bloody well dead! Leave the poor man alone!). The introduction:
quote:
I’m going to tell you who the characters are before going to the story. Bruenor Battlehammer is a dwarf. Drizzt Do’Urden is a drow, or dark elf that has ebony skin, like coal. Qilue Veladorn is another drow, Drizzt’s wife and mother to Alexandria. Catti-brie is Bruenor’s adopted daughter, nurse to Qilue and Alexandria and wife to Wulfgar. Wulfgar is a barbarian, and husband to Catti-brie. Everyone lives in Bruenor’s dwarf mines, in the North, near Ten-Towns, in Icewind Dale.
...should give you a good idea of what to expect in this piece of tripe masterpiece. The author then proceeds to bombard with such deathless prose as:
quote:
Qilue didn’t notice Drizzt’s tenseness at the name of Liriel. Liriel was a drow. Her family was an enemy of Drizzt’s family. Drizzt’s family was dead, but Liriel’s family was still alive. Liriel’s family had declared war on Drizzt’s family long ago.
Liriel hadn’t been born at the time, but Drizzt had blamed Liriel, because she was the only drow on the surface that lived in the same city as Drizzt and it was her family. Although Drizzt’s family had never loved him, he still blamed Liriel for the death of his family.
Seriously now, I wrote better than this when I was ten. The author claims that she wrote this at twelve, but still. And if that's the case, she should be pretty embarrassed with what she concocted at twelve -- I know I would be, considering -- unless what she can produce today is of the same quality. She also subjects the reader to such juvenile dialogue as:
quote:
"Ah, Liriel and Fyodor. It's good to see you." Qilue exclaimed to
her pupil of old and her husband.
"It is good to see you also, dear friend. How do you fare, Drizzt?"
Liriel asked the man who called her enemy.
"I fare fine." Drizzt mumbled to his "enemy"
Liriel sighed and looked at her husband, as if she had forgotten to
mention something of great importance. Fyodor stared back at his adoring wife, with love in his eyes. It seemed to work. Liriel turned to her mentor and exclaimed, with a hint of joy in her voice.
"Ah, yes. I have forgotten to mention that I am pregnant."
It was said so bluntly that it took Qilue and Drizzt moments to
comprehend what she had just said.
Alexandria then proceeds to smack down Icingdeath (who has been inexplicably resurrected):
quote:
They saw the frost dragon and his hoard, frozen in a block of ice.
They saw the dragon as their relatives had seen it. For Wolfbane was
Wulfgar's nephew. Wolfbane called out to the dragon, using its real name, as Wulfgar had all those years ago. Thinking that the dragon was stuck in the block of ice, Wolfbane had called out to him. They were wrong. The dragon, hearing its name, found some inner strength where there was none and lurched.
The dragon surprised the two, but Alexandria reflexively struck the
dragon with her scimitars. It didn't do much damage, but it got Wolfbane
going. While Alexandria put a globe of darkness spell around Icingdeath's head, Wolfbane attacked using his war hammer. He realized that he wasn't doing any damage. He looked to his companion for help. Alexandria cast a spell that caused Icingdeath to burn from the inside out. As the dragon burned, Alexandria cut a scale off of him.
The single most awful combat scene I've ever seen (even Eye of Argon is better than this), not to mention implausible.
I demand my sanity back, damn it. Go on; read the story. Share the misery and spread it around. And watch your braincells be murdered brutally.
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Alexander Heppe
Seeker
Germany
62 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 13:55:01
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Aaargh! The Pain! Why did I just read that?
wiekannmannnureinensolchenkomplettenxxxxxschreiben???
Sorry, drifted to my native tongue, I meant: How can someone Ever write such a xxxx, I mean great story? |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 13:57:58
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I havent frequented fanfiction.net before. Is the process automated or are the stories vetted in anyway? i.e. can people simply fill out an online form or some such and, voila, the story now appears on the site.
If the majority of the stories on there are of the same quality then maybe you should steer clear, Winterfox  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 14:45:28
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Hmmm...this 'story' is the exact reason why this website is on my banned list of sites on the net to visit. It obviously hasn't changed a great deal since I last looked over the site last year...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 15:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Go on; read the story. Share the misery and spread it around. And watch your braincells be murdered brutally.
Pass, it's early in the morning, I'm only on cup two of my coffee. Maybe later in the day, when I'm bold and brave. Oh, who am I kidding, from what you've shared so far, I'm not that brave.  |
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Alexander Heppe
Seeker
Germany
62 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 16:05:45
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I really start to wonder if there are any good FR fanfic stories at all, despite those found in candlekeep, that is...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 16:49:44
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::shudder::
Okay, first off, I'd like to give this author the benefit of the doubt. After all, I didn't write so much better when I was twelve.
Note that I said I'd like to. I can't. This person never should have published it if it was this bad. And when I was twelve, I at least refrained from repeating myself in the course of the narative, like that would make it better.
As for the problems with Realms canon, I won't go into that. It's too obvious.
Now, as to the site itself, it's not really that bad. Most of the stories are, but occasionally I've found one that shone through. It just takes a lot of hunting.
Oh, Mister Heppe: [shameless_plug] try this one. I've heard it's good.  [/shameless_plug] |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 20:12:15
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Hell, I guess it is a really crappy story, but if the author is twelve years old then I say let it pass. It is cheap to pick on children, fun, but still cheap. What good will aloof critiques do to a twelve year-old, except embarass the **** out of them?
Me, I think it was a brave thing to do, publishing that story, it is obviously a escapist fantasy of a young mind, and to share that(no matter how crappy) with others can be a very rewarding experience. Myself I often wrote little stories and adventures when I was a kid, and that was one of my favorite pasttimes. If someone then had written some heavy bash about my stories I don´t know if I would have continued.
I am no great writer now, but it still a rewarding and fun hobby, a hobby I believe most of us in Candlekeep share, don´t bash a little kid just to score some easy points; it´s uncalled for(or?), pointless and says a hell of a lot more about the one bashing the writing then about the author. |
Edited by - Ius on 10 Mar 2004 20:16:53 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 20:14:03
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We shall not read that story (we are wary of any stories based upon books). Plus from looking at the fragments of the story we can tell.... that it's not for us. However it is just plain wrong to condemn the whole site. We have found stories that we enjoy ( and we figure realatively good), Granted most stories that we figure are good are based upon other things, either Anime or Games (Neverwinter Nights, Armored Core- a merc-mecha type game, etc). Besides finding a bad story is not cause for exictement. Finding a truely good story, now that is. Any one can find crud... Look for 'The Cardinal'... and you'll find good examples of crud (but it gives us an outlet) but to find a gem... now that is cause for excitement.
Not that we like to defend this person too much (but it seems the majority leaves us little room to move), still we all know this is not cannon, and second... it's fanfiction. what does one really expect... but if your still curious Rad, you simply create an account ( which is basically free) and then write and update.
We must go to think now.... The gathered effort that seems to be hostile towards the author of the fic (which looks to be something we would not enjoy but that's just us) has oddly disturbed us greatly... we do not know why though... we have to think on this... This has disturbed us more than many could even guess. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 22:27:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Heppe
I really start to wonder if there are any good FR fanfic stories at all, despite those found in candlekeep, that is...
Hmmm. I didn't realize fanfic was part of the Candlekeep site. For reasons that should be obvious, I usually avoid all sites that publish or encourage fanfic.
That said, this site is so well maintained that I doubt it will be f a problem. This is the first reference to fanfic I've encountered in any of the discussion threads. The clearly stated policies and pleasant, consistent moderation on this board is a marvel, and it makes a huge difference, not only in establishing the tone of the discussion, but in creating a "safe environment" for working writers.
Perhaps I should explain "safe." Fanfic might be a harmless outlet for readers, but most of the writers I know avoid reading it. Shared-world writers and publishers need to be very aware of potential liability. My parting of ways with the wizards.com forum was not due to the nasty, sneering tone that characterized so much of the discussion (that sort of thing has, unfortunately, characterized the discussion forums since the AOL days) but because of a growing concern over liability. Policies that invited readers to offer "constructive criticism" designed to "help the authors" with "suggestions that may or may not be taken" create an expectation of participation -- and set the stage for problems down the road. Unfortunately my attempts to point this out were perceived as "attacks on the moderators." Mindboggling, but what can you do.
I also stopped visiting Bob Salvatore's site, www.rasalvatore.com, when a thread for fanfic and art was placed directly below the sticky thread for visiting authors. If a copyright issue arose, it would be difficult for writers to convincingly argue that they don't read fanfic if they are participating in a forum that publishes it in such close proximity to the writers' thread.
I mention these things to point out the problems that can arise when fanfic begins to permeate discussion threads. I'd be very interested in hearing the moderators' comments about Candlekeep policy on this matter. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 10 Mar 2004 22:33:08 |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 22:42:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I also stopped visiting Bob Salvatore's site, www.rasalvatore.com, when a thread for fanfic and art was placed directly below the sticky thread for visiting authors. If a copyright issue arises, it would be difficult for writers to convincingly argue that they don't read fanfic if they are participating in a forum that publishes it in such close proximity.
Has there been any serious cases of this happening? I mean fans having copywright cases against D&D fantasy writers?
I find it hard to believe, although most fantasy writers have scenarios that are almost blueprints of other stories I have yet to read about a case of immaterial rights conflict between two fantasy writers. This might be because I am not a US native, but I find it all quite silly. I have read though that Michael Moorcock protected some of his concepts like "eternal champion" since a lot of other fantasy writers copied, hrrm, I mean was inspired by his works. |
Edited by - Alaundo on 10 Mar 2004 22:45:59 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 22:45:24
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Well met, Elaine
Candlekeep does indeed hold an area containing fan fiction within the Campaign Logs page. This started out as a collection of campaign journals specfic to the Forgotten Realms (being DM logs from adventures, PbeM games etc.), however, a number of short stories are contained within this section, but to my knowledge do not infringe on any copyrighted FR characters and im sure that such fan fiction is not done in any malicious way and entirely an innocent work of the fan from whom it was penned.
I will take a moment to go through the stories to ensure nothing is untoward (many are quite old so I can not immediately recall anything that spings to mine, in the meantime if you are aware of anything worthy of a mention then please let me know).
Whilst a very small amount of fan fiction has made it onto the forums, we encourage such work to be sent into us for inclusion in the Campaign Logs section. Any work causing blatant copyright issues will not be used and will be deleted from the forums forthwith.
I hope that this area of Candlekeep does not give you any further cause for concern and that you feel comfortable enough to stay. I suppose it is a fans instinct to wish to write about their hobby and let others read their work. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 10 Mar 2004 22:50:00 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 23:28:09
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| Ius, according to her profile, the author is 17 years old. I'd say it's rather safe to offer critisms beyond "Good job for a twelve-year-old." |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 23:36:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Ius, according to her profile, the author is 17 years old. I'd say it's rather safe to offer critisms beyond "Good job for a twelve-year-old."
Ok, I just read what was stated in this thread. I found it repulsive to slam a twelve year old that hard, if however it is as you say, my comments are not relevant. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 23:55:30
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| What was previously stated by us has beed removed by us for that it did not matter, what matters is that we ask that Alaundo lock this scroll. While we'd love to hear what others think more than anything, however the sheer audacity of this scroll, grates on our nerves. We are unsure of what other might think, however, we feel that it's creation has cheapened Candlekeep and made it feel more like the Wizards forum. The very nature of this scroll seems to be created to do nothing more than to point out the author of the fic and bash them. We had no prior knowledge of the author or the fic, nor any idea that it existed, howevere a poor fic was pointed out for no other crime of being poor(and while we agree that the fic was poor). This space (as well as out thoughts) could have been put to better use for other realmslore. We appologize if perhaps we missunderstood the nature of this scroll or what the reson for posting it, but still, the space seems like could have been used better. We do not like confrontation nor feeling so hostile. We have more to say but it'd just be repeating what we already have said. This fic is an outside source, it is not cannon, as far was we know the Author of the fic has nothing to do with the Keep, nor did the fic needed to be pointed out. This entire topic (as well as our post, this post) is a waste of time, and patience. We ask that it be locked so we can continue on with other things. Some may ask now Why post this at all then? Three words unfortunately explain this. We Are Human. |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 11 Mar 2004 01:44:13 |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 01:31:44
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I don't want to be a critic, but that was the single worst piece of literature ever penned on any world, be it Earth or Abeir-Toril!
My brother is twelve years old, and he has an adult vocabulary. He could write circles around this imbecile! When I was twelve, I'm sure I could come up with something more breathtaking than "Alexandria cast a spell to make the dragon burn inside out."
I should try to read an actual FR novel now. Seriously, that fan-fiction is like the Cyrinishad. Read it, and your sanity slowly trickles away....... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 01:53:48
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MY GOD! That is a piece of crap! I wrote essays on Canadian History that was more interesting than that! WTF? I say we arm ourselves with our magical swords and staves and burn down this author's home. It's a disgrace to FR fans and to RAS, who worked very hard on his novels and the end result is a crappy copy of his works! I couldn't even get through the second chapter of that so called "story".
There were no accents or speech forms, just dwarves and elves speaking like suburban white folks... Arrgh! |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 02:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met, Elaine
Candlekeep does indeed hold an area containing fan fiction within the Campaign Logs page. This started out as a collection of campaign journals specfic to the Forgotten Realms (being DM logs from adventures, PbeM games etc.), however, a number of short stories are contained within this section, but to my knowledge do not infringe on any copyrighted FR characters and im sure that such fan fiction is not done in any malicious way and entirely an innocent work of the fan from whom it was penned.
I will take a moment to go through the stories to ensure nothing is untoward (many are quite old so I can not immediately recall anything that spings to mine, in the meantime if you are aware of anything worthy of a mention then please let me know).
Whilst a very small amount of fan fiction has made it onto the forums, we encourage such work to be sent into us for inclusion in the Campaign Logs section. Any work causing blatant copyright issues will not be used and will be deleted from the forums forthwith.
I hope that this area of Candlekeep does not give you any further cause for concern and that you feel comfortable enough to stay. I suppose it is a fans instinct to wish to write about their hobby and let others read their work.
Alaundo, thanks for your response. I think I gave the wrong impression, so perhaps I should explain what I mean by "copyright issues."
First, a general explanation for those to whom this might be unfamiliar territory. Copyright is about ownership. The Forgotten Realms setting and all characters that appear in novels and game products are the property of WotC/Hasbro. No one can legally publish FR materials without the permission of the owners. That said, there seems to be an unspoken exception when it comes to fan-supported, electronically published fanfic, shared campaign files, and so on. I sincerely doubt that you'll run into problems with WotC by publishing FR fanfic on this website.
When I expressed concern over copyright issues, I was speaking from a writer's perspective, and I had in mind a situation in which a reader might claim that a published story was based on his or her ideas. Here's an example which was told to me years ago. As far as I know, it is accurate, but even if the story is apocryphal, it describes a very probable scenario.
The late Marion Zimmer Bradley published a number of anthologies set in Darkover, a world she created as the setting for a series of novels. She was drawn into a legal dispute with an aspiring writer who had previously submitted a short story for consideration. This person claimed that an upcoming MZB novel was based on that story, which had been rejected. The claim was found to be without merit, but the publication of the book was held up by several months.
It's not uncommon for writers to be accused of borrowing ideas. Just recently Dan Brown, author of the immensely popular book The Da Vinci Code, was targeted by a writer who claimed the story was based on his previously published novel. This is a litigious society, and publishing is not except from far-fetched claims.
With this in mind, writers working in a shared world have to be careful about putting themselves in a situation that makes such accusations more likely and more plausible. Practices such as frequenting fanfic sites or reading material readers would like to send create a potential liability. Quite a few readers email to offer me ideas, or ask that I consider using a favorite PC in one of my stories. I understand and appreciate their enthusiasm for the Realms -- after all, I've been neck-deep in Realms lore for over a dozen years -- and I know that 999 out of a thousand readers would be tickled to find their suggestions incorporated into a published story and never once think of seeking partial rights to that work. It's that one other guy I'm worried about. And here's the thing: writers have no idea who that one person might be.
Even if that one litigious reader never crawls out of the woodwork, the contracts we sign certify that the manuscript submitted is solely that of the author. I have my own ideas about who my characters are and what directions I want their stories to take, but I'm not sure I could read other people's stories and not be somewhat influenced by them. If I read a fanfic about Dan and Arilyn, liked what was happening, and decided to change the direction of their next (here's hoping!) story, could I in good conscience claim that the resulting story was entirely my own?
Reading fanfic can also limit an author's options. For example, one of my writer buddies read a post on a message board that gave a brief notion (in fanfic form) of how the reader would like to see a character's story continued. The author, to his exasperation, noted that the fanfic was very close to the idea he had in mind. The result? He decided that he couldn't tell the story.
I personally have no problem with fanfic, and I understand why people might want to write it. But if I'm ever accused of improperly using someone's story or ideas, I want to be able to say with absolute assurance that any similarity is coincidental.
If the fanfic here at Candlekeep is on a part of the site separate from the discussion forums, it's easy to avoid. For me, fanfic becomes a problem when it starts unexpectedly showing up in discussion threads. That was an issue on Bob Salvatore's site -- you never knew when someone was going to post a few paragraphs or even several pages in the middle of a discussion. If you've already posted on a thread that turns into an ongoing fanfic story, it's difficult to claim that you never saw it.
Bottom line: I'm more cautious about this issue than some writers, but Candlekeep's policy sounds reasonable and I'm comfortable with it. It seems unlikely that fanfic will crop up in undesignated areas. I haven't been around that long, but I'm really impressed by the approach of the moderators, the cameraderie of the "regulars," and the civility that, which very few exceptions, is extended to all.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 02:18:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ius
Has there been any serious cases of this happening? I mean fans having copywright cases against D&D fantasy writers?
I don't know of a case specifically dealing with D&D fantasy writers. My previous post listed a couple of other examples.
Yes, all this talk of liability and plausible deniability might sound a bit silly, but Americans live in a society where a woman can attempt to drive while holding a cup of hot coffee between her knees, spill it on herself, and then sue McDonald's because the coffee was too hot. And win.
Too cautious? Moi? |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 02:20:41
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Not cautious enough, I'll wager.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Cherrn
Learned Scribe
Denmark
323 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 02:54:22
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Pah! How the hell am I gonna make my eyes stop bleeding after reading that crap!  |
A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..." |
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Sadonayerah Odrydin
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 03:56:56
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I'll admit its pretty bad...but I've been there once so I'm not gonna bash on the author or anything. Yes, there could be some improvements, there is always room for improving, but some people at twelve years old don't have that much talent. (like me for example! I was really terrible. you should've seen my very first original story ever....crappy that was but I also wrote it at like ten years old or something). The author has guts to post a story like that, I agree....but I'm not going to make bad comments about it, I can't simply because I've been there. If anything, I'd be one to email the author and offer her some friendly tips...but that's just me.
(Just my two cents...please don't shoot hate daggers at me or anything)
~Sadie |
"What's that," asked Mogget.
"Sardines," said Sam. "I knew they were standard rations, so I got a few tins for you."
"What are sardines?" Moggest asked suspiciously. "And why is there a key? Is this some sort of Abhorsen joke?"
Abhorsen by Garth Nix
"What you made a vampire...Pomeranian?!" --Hannibal King from Blade Trinity
~Sadie |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 04:36:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Yes, all this talk of liability and plausible deniability might sound a bit silly, but Americans live in a society where a woman can attempt to drive while holding a cup of hot coffee between her knees, spill it on herself, and then sue McDonald's because the coffee was too hot. And win.
Too cautious? Moi?
How fitting your posts come on the day the House of Representatives had to pass legislation in an attempts to put an end to the fast food lawsuits. Yes, if I eat five Big-Macs for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and am overweight, I get to sue McDonald's for damages. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 04:49:02
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Fact: The author is currently seventeen. She wrote this story when she was twelve.
Putting things up on public display makes you fair game -- FF.net's a public site. Anyone and everyone can view it, and considering the quality of the story, I am of the opinion that it deserves every bit of shredding and criticism it gets. If the author stops writing because of this (that is, if someone wants to send her the linkt to this thread?), then she wouldn't be writing in the first place. Posting your work anywhere on the 'Net requires some fairly thick skin. And honestly, would you really put the things you wrote at twelve up -- and expect a shower of glowing praises? I nearly have a heart attack when I look at the things I wrote two-three years ago. The quality of them embarrass me. Besides, the hostility is directed toward the story, not the author. I haven't exactly seen any comment along the line of "Cut off this author's fingers, shatter her keyboard, and burn her at the stake!" Have you?
For those curious: FF.net lets you upload what you want, when you want, and how you want, provided that you follow some rules. It has no quality control whatsoever, and is filled to the brim with stuff like this one and worse. Its services are good, though, and free. There are excellent authors on there, too. For FR section, there's Smith, He Who Hunts, Dave, and Anya al'Nighter. Visit The Silmarillion section sometimes, too. It's a fandom that's almost 100% quality. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 11 Mar 2004 05:01:12 |
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Sadonayerah Odrydin
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 06:42:36
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Fact: Just because you're seventeen doesn't mean you can write. I know a few writers that are my age (18) that can't write very well (if in fact at all). Most, if not all of them, are in my creative writing class (and they aren't very creative either).
Don't get me wrong, I'm wasn't saying that you were all going to beat the author of the story or anything like that. I was merely saying that I wasn't going to comment like that because I've been in her shoes. My writing didn't improve until I was a sophomore in high school. And I'm still working on it. (I'm graduating this year) Believe me, my writing has improved greatly.
But aside from that, I've had a really, super crappy original fic posted on FF.Net that was just about as bad as this. (Freshman year). I'm pretty sure I kept it up for at least year. No one ever reviewed it but I still kept it up (never revising it, never adding to it). I also had one of my teachers read it. (In my freshman year. I imagine it was torture for him! I feel bad for the poor guy now). He read it and gave it back with edits on it, gave me his email address and told me if I ever wanted him to read my stuff to send it to him. (of course I've lost touch with him. but I have a few friends who help me edit my stuff).
~Sadie |
"What's that," asked Mogget.
"Sardines," said Sam. "I knew they were standard rations, so I got a few tins for you."
"What are sardines?" Moggest asked suspiciously. "And why is there a key? Is this some sort of Abhorsen joke?"
Abhorsen by Garth Nix
"What you made a vampire...Pomeranian?!" --Hannibal King from Blade Trinity
~Sadie |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 06:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sadonayerah Odrydin
Fact: Just because you're seventeen doesn't mean you can write. I know a few writers that are my age (18) that can't write very well (if in fact at all). Most, if not all of them, are in my creative writing class (and they aren't very creative either).
Of course not. One of the worst fanfics I've ever read was written when the author was nineteen or twenty. For that matter, being young doesn't mean you can't write -- I've met a great many good young writers. In fact, most fanfiction writers are teenagers. Anywhere from 13-18. (Twenty-to-forty something people can also be found, but those are the minority.)
Being seventeen means that you should know the basics, though. Form coherent sentences. Compose prose that doesn't read like something barely better than "See Spot. See Spot Run. Run Spot run." Hardly high standards, I would think. (If you must know, I myself proofread my work at least twice -- five times if I feel fidgety -- and then send it to a beta-reader, if one's available. Then I inflict the thing upon the unsuspecting public at large.)
My post was there mostly to respond to Cardinal Deimos, though, and his insistence that this thread should be locked. I fail to comprehend why Cardinal Deimos would want the thread locked on the basis that "this space could have been put to better use" and "this thread is a waste of time and patience." What, does this thread for some reason consume more bandwidth than the other threads? Does this thread obstruct anyone, anyone at all, from participating in other threads? Can I ask the mods to lock all the threads I don't like, too? |
Edited by - Winterfox on 11 Mar 2004 06:59:41 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 08:59:19
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Well met
Thank ye for clearing that up, Elaine. I completely understand your concerns. As I said previously, fan fiction is kept away from the forums (the only one of which I am aware is Bookwyrm's Jack Archer of Earth story which has been commended by Ed Greenwood, no less, and is a very fine piece of work indeed, quite a unique tale (as you can even tell initially just by the title)).
I will ensure any fan fiction posts are kept away from the forums henceforth. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 12:18:29
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The thing I mostly react to concerning this topic is that it is sanctimonious(did I spell that right?), I mean the story is crap, so what? Have you missed the fact that fantasy and SF in general is looked down upon and mostly seen as on the same level as comics by "serious" critics. No fantasy writer, as far as I know has gotten the nobel prize in litterature.
Bookwyrm, I enjoy your story about Jack Archer immensly, but if you would be suscepted to the critics of a proffessional from the culturepages of some highstandard magazine, I am fairly sure that they would bash it. The critique might be more subtle and not so rude as many of the comments in this thread, but no less condecending. Would you be motivated by this? Would your writing improve?
The thing I have always liked about the fanatsy community, if you can call it that, is the abundace of creativity it generates. Of course it is a little embarrassing that she does not relize the failings of her writing, but as I take it she posted it on a site were that should not really matter all that much. I think it is good that people express themselves. If it is crap, I just will not read it.
Proffessional writers is another matter they should be able to take a little flak. And if it is as good some of Winterfox´s other reviews, they are a fun read. |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 12:26:15
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Winetfox: While I agree with some of the posts that the good Cardinal made, I too agree with you that there is no justification for closing this thread. If people dont like the content they are free to avoid it of course. Freedom of something or other. It is entirely random though, to pull some obscure piece off of FF.net, but that's neither here nor there.
Two points I would like to clear up though, that you made:
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I haven't exactly seen any comment along the line of "Cut off this author's fingers, shatter her keyboard, and burn her at the stake!" Have you?
If in fact you read a few comments above your own, you will see this choice comment:
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I say we arm ourselves with our magical swords and staves and burn down this author's home.
While I know full well you are not responsible for the reactions people have to the post you make, it does lend credibility to your arguments when you use the facts.
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Being seventeen means that you should know the basics, though.
While I fully understand what you mean, as an African I am forced to discuss this point though. Please note by African, I do not mean African-American or some such, I am from Africa and have spent the largest portion of my life there. To say that a seventeen year old should know the basics could border on the most insulting thing I could fathom a person saying. With an aids infection rate of 1 in 3 people (in my home coutnry - bordering on 84% in Malawi) the majority of children at 17 are more concerned with how they are going to survive the month on a government grant of $7 per month. If indeed, as I suspect, you meant that children of age 17 who are currently being educated or have at least progressed through certain secondary institutions should know the basics, I would once more contest that saying that the schools that are common back home are of the standard where up to 120 children are being tought by one teacher being paid per month what you spend on a McDonalds happy meal and I make 'no' joke.
As it is, I am currently employed for an international magazine that distributes to over 16 countries, and I can say with surety that I did not write that well at 12, nor would I have had the courage to post such a piece.
I will refrain from giving commentary on the matter in terms of its merits, I will however say that I take my hat off to anyone with the courage to post their work in open forum, where as you say, it's fair game (where I believe you are entirely correct).
I will sign off there, with just a little footnote to state I'm not trying to spark a debate of any sorts or argue in any way, just wanted to give my limited opinion on a few key issues. |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 13:19:43
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MuadDib said:
quote:
While I fully understand what you mean, as an African I am forced to discuss this point though. Please note by African, I do not mean African-American or some such, I am from Africa and have spent the largest portion of my life there. To say that a seventeen year old should know the basics could border on the most insulting thing I could fathom a person saying. With an aids infection rate of 1 in 3 people (in my home coutnry - bordering on 84% in Malawi) the majority of children at 17 are more concerned with how they are going to survive the month on a government grant of $7 per month. If indeed, as I suspect, you meant that children of age 17 who are currently being educated or have at least progressed through certain secondary institutions should know the basics, I would once more contest that saying that the schools that are common back home are of the standard where up to 120 children are being tought by one teacher being paid per month what you spend on a McDonalds happy meal and I make 'no' joke.
I apologize if what I said wasn't very sensitive toward certain angles. I'll elaborate on that statement: Being seventeen, and assumably educated in a developed country and coming from a relatively well-to-do family, you should know the basics.
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As it is, I am currently employed for an international magazine that distributes to over 16 countries, and I can say with surety that I did not write that well at 12, nor would I have had the courage to post such a piece.
Yes, but the author is not twelve. She's seventeen. If she were twelve and posted this, it would be a different matter entirely. Mind you, if she were tweleve and posted this, I'd be reporting her for being under thirteen. (FF.net membership requires that you are at least thirteen.)
Ius said:
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Bookwyrm, I enjoy your story about Jack Archer immensly, but if you would be suscepted to the critics of a proffessional from the culturepages of some highstandard magazine, I am fairly sure that they would bash it. The critique might be more subtle and not so rude as many of the comments in this thread, but no less condecending. Would you be motivated by this? Would your writing improve?
I'm not speaking for Bookwyrm, but for myself. Let me tell you of my experience. I'm an amatuer writer myself, have posted my stories on the 'Net for a few years -- and gotten my fair share of critiques, thank you very much. Some of my beta-readers are no less exacting than an English professor. I've had my plot questioned extensively ("That doesn't make a lot of sense", "How did this happen?", "I'm sorry, but that part was, well, awfully corny", "Well, that was a monster to edit!"), and have gotten corrections (in red font) all over my work. The feedback I get range anywhere from "MORE PLZ!" to intelligent, well thought-out reviews that point out the flaws of my style.
And you know what? I love my critics and my betas. I cherish them. I damn well near put my betas on a pedestal and sacrifice lambs to them daily. Without them, I'd have stagnated and my writing wouldn't have been much better than what's seen in this fanfiction.
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Of course it is a little embarrassing that she does not relize the failings of her writing, but as I take it she posted it on a site were that should not really matter all that much.
Sadly, that's the excuse seen very often on FF.net. "It's only fanfiction!" is one. (To which I reply: So? It's only a review.)
quote:
I think it is good that people express themselves. If it is crap, I just will not read it.
And you would know that it's crap without reading it... how? And after you've read it, IMO, you have every right to express your opinion about it, just as the authors have every right to inflict the most awful, brain-rotting stories on readers. |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 13:34:30
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Myself I can usually make my mind up quickly about if I want to continue reading a story through or not. Of course I can not judge a story before I have read at least a part of it, but this is self evident and not something you should have to point out to people.
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FR fanfic: features Drizzt, Qilue, etc. Awful.
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