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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 18:21:09
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Does anyone know exactly how long a shade usually lives?
I've read things ranging from "several times the length of a normal human's lifespan" to "life expectancy challenging that of the elves".
So, erm, is there a more precise range stated anywhere?
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 18:48:19
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I think every shade who's ever been given a birth year has also prolonged their life with other magic.
The exception is Artemis Entreri but there is no confirmation that he is a true shade - just that he is infused with some of the shadowstuff that creates a shade.
Entreri was starting to feel his age affecting his abilities in 1364 but nearly a century later, after absorbing the shadowstuff, he still appeared to be in his forties. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 01 Jun 2015 18:51:54 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 19:00:22
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It's funny that you mentioned Entreri because he was the reason that the discussion about shade lifespans came up between a friend and I. Entreri is categorized as a "part shade" so it's totally possible that the full unmodified lifespan of a shade would tell very little about how long his life has been prolonged by.
But how long does a shade live for? In the Erevis Cale trilogy, part of the reason that the mage seeking the Fane of Shadows wanted to become a shade is for the prolonged life. I don't have the text handy at the present but I recall him extolling the benefits of shade conversion to the degree of making "prolonged life" sound like immortality. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 19:15:47
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Like in most things edition and/or campaign world can offer different answers. What I can offer on life span is from Monster Manual II (1983).
quote:
The stuff of Shadow most certainly prolongs the life of shades, for unless they meet with an accident or are killed, they are undying.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 00:13:38
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Yeah, found confirming sources: Powers and Pantheons p192 (which was reprinted in Monstrous Annual Volume 4)
quote:
Shades are effectively immortal, never dying unless slain and prevented from regenerating. They achieve this state by exchanging their spirits for the stuff of shadows.
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When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2429 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 12:33:40
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| Well... It is something between undeath and elemental transformation. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 23:57:25
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If shades exchange their spirit for shadowstuff (whether intermittently or on an ongoing basis), they must eventually reach a point where they have fully depleted their spirit, they have no more left to exchange and so cannot continue "living".
I suppose this means that over time a shade becomes less and less human, less and less an individual, more diffuse, more "shady". Ultimately nothing will remain beyond a husk of shadows which mimic the form of a once-living being, perhaps even these fade away once the final echoes of self have finally been lost in darkness. Such a process might take decades or centuries or millennia, it would depend greatly on the strength and will of the individual. It might be accelerated through constant abuse and damage.
Telamont (once Lord Shadow of Netheril) is several thousand years old, and it's even possible that he existed as a shade for some time (perhaps several centuries) in ancient Netheril. I suggest that he is "not all there", insofar as he is no longer what could be called "human". He is immensely powerful and commands nearly godlike magical abilities (as any still-living Archwizard of Netheril should!) ... yet he seems to have already been consumed by the shadows, he is almost mechanically patterned in his behaviours, he just doesn't strike me as being at all as vibrant and brilliant as one of the brightest rising stars of Netheril (a magical progeny favoured by Karsus himself) really should be. Maybe it's because a lot of who Telamont was when he was alive has been traded away for the murky inhumanity which keeps him still alive. What is the stuff of shadow made of, exactly? Even the first taste of it which forms a shade already carries an indifference, a coldness, a sense of disconnection and loss and uncaring ... and a little essence of something not only passively inhuman but actively malign.
Liches do decay and wither, very slowly, and require endless magical invention to maintain their undead existence. It seems that their psychology is hardwired into an inhuman drive towards mastering magic, and this keeps them going for a long while. But most eventually succumb to sheer insanity (or, at least, their behaviour is no longer motivated by things the living can readily comprehend). Even the most stable of liches usually "moves on" after a few millennia at most, evolving into a demilich or a transcendant apotheosis or something - but it seems they never actually "die", as anyone disturbing their remains/possessions will quickly discover.
Vampires can also live indefinitely, but their unlife requires continuous sustenance, typically in the form of blood. Their main problem (aside from ensuring they have an endless supply of fresh blood which won't try to kill them in their sleep) seems to be that the living continue to grow and change and evolve while the unliving remain locked into a "point of death" stagnation, it is very difficult for them to remain sane in a changing world for more than a few centuries. I suppose that constant predation of the living (in gruesome ways which intrinsically alienate them from their once-living instincts and beliefs and values) has a way of eroding anyone's mind, given enough time. Ravenloft presents a twisted reversal on this: the oldest vampire of the land (Strahd) keeps on unliving unhappily ever after, his endless curse, because the world itself works to remain forever unchanged for his "benefit".
The various Chosen of the gods/goddesses are each unique but they all seem to share the trait of immortality. And the very oldest of them are very jaded, very tired. Not all of them remain sane. I think in some very fundamental way (which perhaps even they cannot define) they are simply no longer human. The human mind (and soul?) is not really built to last more than a lifetime, more than a few centuries at most.
Elves, too, are said to grow weary of life and look forward to moving on after too many centuries way heavily upon them. Even dragons have no wish to live forever and, towards their most ancient of years, they truly yearn to move beyond the living world. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Jun 2015 00:20:57 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 00:18:10
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| Well, the 2nd edition sources for shades do say that the transformation leaves the individual much more dour and solitary in nature, becoming more distant from their former urges the longer they live. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 14:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If shades exchange their spirit for shadowstuff (whether intermittently or on an ongoing basis), they must eventually reach a point where they have fully depleted their spirit, they have no more left to exchange and so cannot continue "living".
I hadn't thought about the exchange this way until now. Is it the case that they have to continually exchange their spirit for shadowstuff in order to persist as a shade? As in, it isn't a one-time thing only? I thought that it was just that they did it once, they become a shade, and then they just go on living forever.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The various Chosen of the gods/goddesses are each unique but they all seem to share the trait of immortality. And the very oldest of them are very jaded, very tired. Not all of them remain sane. I think in some very fundamental way (which perhaps even they cannot define) they are simply no longer human. The human mind (and soul?) is not really built to last more than a lifetime, more than a few centuries at most.
Please pardon me as I groan loudly at Catti-brie's reborned Chosen status in light of this information.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elves, too, are said to grow weary of life and look forward to moving on after too many centuries way heavily upon them. Even dragons have no wish to live forever and, towards their most ancient of years, they truly yearn to move beyond the living world.
Actually, this reminded me of another question that I wanted to ask, and hopefully it gets resolved in this thread so that I don't start another one. XD
Do elves "get old"? Do their appearances ever change, as they get more and more ancient? There seems to be conflicting information out there, as sourcebooks state that elves stop aging once they reach maturity and remain that way until they die, be it from natural or unnatural causes. However, in various FR novels, there have been elves that appear old, some due to magical alterations but some without having had such experiences in their lives. Which one is the canonical condition? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 17:42:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If shades exchange their spirit for shadowstuff (whether intermittently or on an ongoing basis), they must eventually reach a point where they have fully depleted their spirit, they have no more left to exchange and so cannot continue "living".
I hadn't thought about the exchange this way until now. Is it the case that they have to continually exchange their spirit for shadowstuff in order to persist as a shade? As in, it isn't a one-time thing only? I thought that it was just that they did it once, they become a shade, and then they just go on living forever.
Here's my personal spin: to become a shade, they trade some of their living essence for shadowstuff. But not all of it -- enough remains for them to be able to remain in the Prime and continue to gain experience and memories. However, the very nature of shadowstuff is that it tends to snuff out life -- so eventually, the shadowstuff overwhelms and consumes what remains of their life essence (or soul, however you want to spin it), and the formerly living human is now wholly an undead shadow.
This process can, of course, be delayed but not stopped by powerful magic, and a strong enough will can further delay it. So, like a lich, a Shade can remain around for centuries or even millennia -- but at some point, time will still get the best of them.
This is all a personal spin and is not, so far as I know, reflected in canon. The lifespan of the Shades is something I don't think has been addressed in canon Realmslore.
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elves, too, are said to grow weary of life and look forward to moving on after too many centuries way heavily upon them. Even dragons have no wish to live forever and, towards their most ancient of years, they truly yearn to move beyond the living world.
Do elves "get old"? Do their appearances ever change, as they get more and more ancient? There seems to be conflicting information out there, as sourcebooks state that elves stop aging once they reach maturity and remain that way until they die, be it from natural or unnatural causes. However, in various FR novels, there have been elves that appear old, some due to magical alterations but some without having had such experiences in their lives. Which one is the canonical condition?
The sourcebooks do say aging stops, but we've canon examples of noticeably aged elves... My non-canon, personal spin: aging does not entirely stop, for elves. Once they reach adulthood, aging does slow down dramatically, enough to become mostly unnoticeable. However, after a few centuries, aging does increase somewhat.
I'd say that for the first few centuries of adulthood, elves age maybe a year or two per century. Once they get to be 5 or 6 centuries old, though, it increases to about a year's worth of aging per decade. Of course, by that point in time, most elves have long since Retreated to Evermeet or otherwise retired from the wider world to remain in entirely elven communities. So the perception to humans is that elves don't age at all -- they only see the "younger" elves. During a human's lifespan, the aging of those younger elves is imperceptible -- like trying to see the differences between a human at 22 and the same human at 23. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Jun 2015 17:43:35 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 18:19:51
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| I'm extremely puzzled now about what is canon and what is not, between sourcebooks and novels. :C For instance, with the whole elves and aging thing. The sourcebooks say that elves don't age, while books by different authors contain elves (I'm including drow in the "elves" category) that look and are very old. I like your personal explanation for it Wooly, but if we're talking absolutes, which is canon? Both? We've just gotta work it out how both are true in our heads? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 20:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I'm extremely puzzled now about what is canon and what is not, between sourcebooks and novels. :C For instance, with the whole elves and aging thing. The sourcebooks say that elves don't age, while books by different authors contain elves (I'm including drow in the "elves" category) that look and are very old. I like your personal explanation for it Wooly, but if we're talking absolutes, which is canon? Both? We've just gotta work it out how both are true in our heads?
The official stance is that newer lore trumps older lore... But you can finesse both into being correct by assuming that the sourcebooks are written from the perspective of humans, who don't see elven aging, or by assuming the unreliable narrator stance that was in some of the earlier source material. I believe the line was something like "Nothing that I say is false, but it may not be true." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 21:15:02
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| Thanks Wooly! It can be terribly frustrating debating the universe canon when things do not always seem to align properly. :( And huge thanks to everyone else for helping me with the shade lifespan question!! :D <3 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 22:55:56
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AD&D descriptions of elves were based a lot on Tolkien's descriptions of elves. Represented well in recent Lord of the Rings movies, I think. Most elves are "young" (in elven terms), but truly ancient elves (such as Elrond and Galadriel, who've been around since the First Age some thousands of years ago) were portrayed by middle-aged human actors. Suggesting elves physically age in a millennium about as much as a human would in a decade, or in simpler terms, they appear only one year older for each century which passes.
My own argument above was founded on an assumption (and possible flaw). A "soul" is a thing utterly impossible to define with any precision, even in spiritual terminology, it is a vague thing with vague properties shrouded in murky metaphysics and mysticism. But living things have souls. Dead things (along with undead things and unliving things) do not have souls, or at best they perhaps possess partial souls. Living things are defined as being vital, dynamic, always driven (by mere survival) towards growth and change. Dead things, not so much. But it seems the very act of living is a constant renewal, souls of the living might be constantly self-replenishing things. We eat, we drink, we work, we party, we love, we learn, we relax, life is the same yet life is different every day, and much of what we naturally do is "good for the soul", eh? Dead things, soulless things, not so much.
So the living constantly renew themselves. Liches constantly work magic and periodically perform special rituals of power to renew themselves. Elves are sometimes impelled to seek new things (adventure, etc) to renew themselves. Chosen seem to be vessels/receptacles of divine power who sometimes interface directly with their deities to renew themselves. Even druids heirophant (and other priestish sorts granted agelessness/immortality) sustain or renew themselves by channelling faith. Vampires drink living blood (or somehow psychically draw some sort of living energy through the blood) to renew themselves, though this doesn't last very long and must be repeated with great frequency. Dragons increase their hoards and territories to renew themselves. Dwarves renew themselves through industry at the forge. Even those nasty little halflings renew themselves through copious amounts of ale, thievery, and bonds of family.
I'm not saying "this or that racial trait = renewal", "orcs are green and so they renew themselves by being green". I'm saying that the things these species value, how they perceive their worth, their basic identities, what their very natures compel them to do - these are the fundamental elements from which they are composed, they each renew their vital essence (their "souls") by doing whatever it is spiritually connect with.
The theme seems constant. If shades fit this pattern then they must somehow (through the shadows?) have a way to renew themselves. If they still possess some part of their "living" human soul then they must each contain some balance of human-vs-shade. A balance which in Realmslore is described as shifting irrevocably away from eroding human and towards cold shadow - so maybe the living soul "burns out" over years (as I asserted in my first post) and we have an unliving shade - which will ultimately become a not-living darkness.
But maybe instead the partial human-soul constantly renews itself through actual "living", while maybe the partial shadow-soul constantly renews itself through deep and dark shadyness, the shade is therefore always a spiritually transitional being caught on a very literal edge between life and death, light and darkness. A being which might (theoretically) be able to "redeem" its human soul through human-like virtues such as compassion, nobility, and growth (or maybe less complex human virtues like beer and tobacco and carousing and swearing) ... and a being constantly sinking (physically and psychologically) towards impenetrable darkness and shadowstuff? In short: a sort of damned soul in a sort of unending purgatory, not really at peace, not really tormented. If so, the lifespan of shades might be fated to end with a sort of complete resurrection or a complete condemnation, but many might continue to drift onwards (and interact with the living as best they can, maybe) with no ultimate plan other than a dismal half-hope for final oblivion. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Jun 2015 23:34:07 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 23:12:12
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| A good question is, since the "natural" environment of shades is the Shadowfell, whether they age/decay or otherwise have a limited lifespan when away from the Shadowfell and instead somewhere else like the Realms? Or is that a meaningless distinction, since the Plane of Shadow always intersects and overlaps with the Realms anyhow? Or is it a meaningless distinction, since an essential part of each shade's "soul" has already been permanently linked to Shadow (similar to the way other undead are linked to the Negative Energy Plane) anyhow? |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2429 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 18:08:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
For instance, with the whole elves and aging thing. The sourcebooks say that elves don't age, while books by different authors contain elves (I'm including drow in the "elves" category) that look and are very old.
There actually was lore on that.
Most elves eventually "hear the call of Arvandor", i.e. for all their claims, are rather weakly tied to their mortal coil on Prime and shuffle it before it really cannot hold them. Thus their typical lifespan is much less than what would be observed could be if they were raised differently.
This is not the case with High Mages because they typically blocked it out (partially) and thus tend to live much longer. Possibly the same applies to other elves obsessed over matters other than their religion.
And, obviously, this doesn't apply to the drow. But they live in a very toxic world, however adapted to it. Of course, their habits tend to... drop average lifespan (as in, usually they don't get to be decrepit for long).
They have exceptional cases too - e.g. Yvonnel Baenre (-7 DR - 1358 DR), in her case it was a (well-deserved) reward from Lolth - and if she didn't start to lose the edge, chances are, she would go on for another century or three. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Exact Lifespan of a Shade?
