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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 16:46:36
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Found and purchased a pristine copy of the old Realms supplement called The Bloodstone Lands. I read the back of the guidebook and the first sentence states that this is where the Icewind Dale Trilogy takes place. RA Salvatore is the author of the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook.
Is this just a typo? (Since the Icewind Dale Trilogy takes place nowhere near the Bloodstone Lands)
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Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 17:52:57
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Not sure on that one... It could have been an attempt to capitalize on the author's appeal, but that wasn't a maneuver they really went for until much later -- that supplement was pretty early on. It could have also been that they intended to cover that area and later cut it from the book. Or -- and I think this is most likely -- the back cover blurb was written by someone who wasn't familiar with everything, and he or she simply made a mistake that wasn't caught until it was too late.
Friend BEAST might know more; he is our local RAS expert.
That was, in fact, the first FR supplement I ever got. It wasn't out of interest in that particular area; it was simply the first FR source material I saw in a store, and that cover art by Larry Elmore grabbed my eye. That art remains one of my favorite bits of his work. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 18:40:11
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yes a typo - as Wooly said the back cover blurb was written by someone who wasn't familiar with everything, and as Bob was doing Icewind Dale which is cold and frozen obviously the Bloodstone Lands are also cold and frozen, so its an easy mistake to make
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 19:49:52
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| I can understand making the mistake but it seems weird that TSR didn't have an editor catch it. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 19:51:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That art remains one of my favorite bits of his work.
Most of the older Realms supplement cover art is truly beautiful. I can't remember who the artist is, but the cover of Doom of Daggerdale is one of my favs. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 22:13:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That art remains one of my favorite bits of his work.
Most of the older Realms supplement cover art is truly beautiful. I can't remember who the artist is, but the cover of Doom of Daggerdale is one of my favs.
Jeff Easley. I like his stuff, but a lot of it is characterized by what I think of as a kind of "leathery" look.
I still rank him among the Big Three, though -- Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell (he of the round red gem), and Jeff Easley. Keith Parkinson was up there, too, but he didn't make my top 3. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 02:47:33
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| Yeah some of Easley's human faces look a bit strange, but he excels at non-human things like the cover of VR's Guide to the Lich. Brom was another one of my favs. I always thought he was perfect for all of those Dark Sun designs. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 02:48:35
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| Ahh, Fred Fields was another great one! |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 05:14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Yeah some of Easley's human faces look a bit strange, but he excels at non-human things like the cover of VR's Guide to the Lich.
It wasn't just the faces, though it was more notable there. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 06:29:43
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My understanding is that the Bloodstone Lands were originally conceived of as an entirely disconnected, independent region from everything else, purely for D&D Core purposes.
Shoehorning them into the Realms came much later, and it wasn't a smooth process. Exactly where in the Realms the BL would be located was probably up in the air for a time. Maybe they were even going to be located somewhere near to Icewind Dale? I don't rightly know.
Another example of the confusing manner in which the BL material was brought into the Realms is the chronology stuff. The dates in the BL sourcebook uses an odd temporal frame of reference (FR, instead of DR).
It also says that Zhengyi arose in 1137 FR (as opposed to 1347 DR), and that the King of Damara was assassinated in 1147 FR (as opposed to 1357 DR), and that this was all only supposedly a dozen years before the present (1359 FR). 1359 - 1137 is a lot more than just a dozen years (212 years, to be exact). So clearly somebody rushed the time calculations, too. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 14:57:44
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| The issue with the dates wasn't so much a miscalculation so much as trying to force the H series of modules into the Realms. That's where all the Bloodstone Lands lore originally came from. Bob was given the job of expanding the existing lore and placing that information in a Forgotten Realms context. The first H module was published in 1985 but it wasn't until the last module came out in 1988 that the decision had been made to retcon them into the Realms and Bob's work came a year after that. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 22:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
The issue with the dates wasn't so much a miscalculation so much as trying to force the H series of modules into the Realms.
No, hash, it was definitely a miscalculation. The module says that Zhengyi first rose up in FR1147, barely 12 years ago, and that the current year is FR1359. 1359-1147 is a lot more than just 12 years. It's a major miscalculation.
So perhaps FR1147 = 1347 DR?
And the current year is 1359 DR, and not "FR1359" as printed?
The earlier H modules actually indicate that the year of Zhengyi's rise was 1137 (no frame of reference given).
Clearly, merging that early lore with the then-current time clack of FR 2E did not go smoothly. They didn't get either the WHEN or the WHERE precisely right. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 23:56:46
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H2 explicitly states that King Virdin died in 1147 (but, like you said, no frame of reference given). H2 was published 2 years before the campaign became 'realmsified'.
They used the same date in The Bloodstone Lands and didn't add 210 years to make it in line with 1st edition Forgotten Realms.
There was no calculation at all. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 23 Apr 2015 00:01:35 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2015 : 22:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
I can understand making the mistake but it seems weird that TSR didn't have an editor catch it.
That's pretty normal.
Bob's editor did not catch that he killed a lich by casting lightning underwater either haha.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12038 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2015 : 01:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
H2 explicitly states that King Virdin died in 1147 (but, like you said, no frame of reference given). H2 was published 2 years before the campaign became 'realmsified'.
They used the same date in The Bloodstone Lands and didn't add 210 years to make it in line with 1st edition Forgotten Realms.
There was no calculation at all.
It got changed later. GHotR says 1357. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2015 : 04:28:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It got changed later. GHotR says 1357.
Right. And the Bloodstone Lands' precise fitment within northern Faerûn was also hammered out over time, too.
But the OP was asking why such mistakes were made in the first place? It is pretty obvious and alarming when one first stumbles across them.
It just goes to show that Realms literature has been in a constant state of evolution from the beginning. Stuff happens. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2015 : 01:42:54
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My own thoughts on the subject is that Icewind Dale WAS supposed to be up above (or even IN) Vassa and Damara, but for whatever reason they decided to move Drizzt & Co. over into The North... probably because that was a major area of focus at the time (if I had to take a guess).
So when the novels were conceived they were set in the Unapproachable East, but over time - and as they got written - things shifted WAY west. Note that there is a 'lonely mountain' AND a set of 'Ice Lakes' in BOTH regions. Its my familiarity with the geography that lead me to believe that the stories were meant to be in one place but then moved to the other.
But no-one told the blurb guy.........
Like I said, this is just my own theory - that that area above the Spine of the World was 'staked-out' by RAS because nothing was there (back then) and he wanted to have a tabula rasa to work with for his stories. That part he has even stated himself in interviews. The other region (Bloodstone Lands) already had lore associated with it, thanks to the shoe-horned in Bloodstone modules, and he didn't want to trip over any of that (even though he was the author of both - and note that he DID eventually bring a few of his characters over that way and had them interact with his module lore). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jul 2015 01:44:54 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2015 : 02:29:44
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I've had a play with the dates in "The Bloodstone Lands". Stay tuned.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2015 : 13:43:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Woohoo for more George lore, boohoo because it means my alternate version will now be obsolete
Pretty sure I haven't invalidated any of your stuff. Even if my musings have done that, your work is just as valid. No one has a license on what is 'right' for the Realms other than Ed.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2015 : 15:56:30
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I need to finish up my current map so I can finally get back to this one.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 01:28:59
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I do recall RAS explaining that the Bloodstone lands was the original setting for IWD trillogy, but that it got moved for some reason or another. I also remember him saying that he wanted to create monk character, but was instead told by TSR to create a story about a cleric. Danica Maupoissant from the Cleric Quintet was his attempt to do it anyway.
IMO, the Bloodstone Lands is one of the best campaign settings for the FR. My only complaint is what happened to it during the 4e era. The 5e realms is most likely going to take the BL back to it's original state. Of course, we might get absolutely nothing from WotC.
With that said, I have reason to believe that Mike Schley is working on a North Eastern FR map, but that's about all I have my hopes up for at this point. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 08:34:37
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The Bloodstone modules (H Series) were really a mess, first incorporating Battlesystem and then the adventuring supplements and finally high-level campaigning (wow was that a mess, with the 100th level PCs and all). When the idea came around to fit it into the Realms a lot of things didn't make much sense at all.
The one that I find the most amusing, all these years later, is that Zhengi was Thayan but not a red wizard, more powerful that Szass Tam, complete with an endless army of undead and demons (and the lord of the dead himself in his corner) decades before :P... not to mention the everlasting complications of having Orcus and Tiamat be PC targets.
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2015 : 15:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The Bloodstone modules (H Series) were really a mess, first incorporating Battlesystem and then the adventuring supplements and finally high-level campaigning (wow was that a mess, with the 100th level PCs and all). When the idea came around to fit it into the Realms a lot of things didn't make much sense at all.
The one that I find the most amusing, all these years later, is that Zhengi was Thayan but not a red wizard, more powerful that Szass Tam, complete with an endless army of undead and demons (and the lord of the dead himself in his corner) decades before :P... not to mention the everlasting complications of having Orcus and Tiamat be PC targets.
I agree that the H series of modules is a mess, I really don't know anyone who played through them all. With that said, they are not completely useless.
As for Zhengi, I rather like that he was more powerful than Szass Tam.
Most DMs don't use Zhengi directly anyway. Zhengi was lich who tempted dragons into undeath. That works rather well for my campaigns. I actually, enjoyed reading the Sellswords trilogy from that perspective.
Orcus and Tiamat have been PC targets in D&D for as long as I can remember. Heck even the dungeons of Rappan Athuk used Orcus. DMs have to challenge high level PCs some way, and using demon and devil lords is far less destructive than using demi-gods. Of course, WotC hasn't helped by granting them god status.
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 13:02:50
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Regarding RAS' work, I couldn't happen but notice similarities between the Cleric Quintet and the H series. Barjin the Cleric for instance seemed like a dead ringer for Banak, cleric of Orcus. The Monastery of the Yellow Rose and the Edificant Library both have monks specializing in martial arts. Castle Trinity and the Citadel of Assassins are pretty similar too.
Anyway, I found it very interesting when he started using the area in the Entreri novels.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
Edited by - Misereor on 03 Feb 2016 13:04:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12038 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 15:10:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
Regarding RAS' work, I couldn't happen but notice similarities between the Cleric Quintet and the H series. Barjin the Cleric for instance seemed like a dead ringer for Banak, cleric of Orcus. The Monastery of the Yellow Rose and the Edificant Library both have monks specializing in martial arts. Castle Trinity and the Citadel of Assassins are pretty similar too.
Anyway, I found it very interesting when he started using the area in the Entreri novels.
Yeah, I noted the similarities between the two a long time ago as well. I half think he was discouraged from placing that storyline in Damara OR he realized his storyline didn't quite fit Damara and decided to place it in a relatively unmapped area. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12038 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 13:33:33
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| BTW, after reading the Song of Fire and Ice trilogy, I've half wondered if George R.R. Martin didn't adventure in this area. Damara reminds me of the North, with bloodstone pass being "the wall", and Vaasa corresponding to the lands beyond the wall, and Impiltur and southern Damara being like the "nobler" areas of the seven kingdoms. Then compare Bran riding on Hodor to Bistro Batenrooj the gnome illusionist riding on the shoulders of a barbarian. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 13:50:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, after reading the Song of Fire and Ice trilogy...
Two more books in this "trilogy" have been published... |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 16:19:29
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In the end it will be - unless we have been mislead for years - a septology (my word, but it works)
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 16:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
In the end it will be - unless we have been mislead for years - a septology (my word, but it works)
Septology sounds good to me! (but I think it's already an established word) |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 04 Feb 2016 16:29:34 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12038 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2016 : 00:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, after reading the Song of Fire and Ice trilogy...
Two more books in this "trilogy" have been published...
Yeah, you know what I mean. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Bloodstone Lands
