| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2015 : 13:28:11
|
Hi, fellow sages!
I was looking for information on winged elven bladesingers, since this is the racial prestige class of the avariel in Races of Faerūn. I was intrigued about their existence, since I read somewhere that most avariel disappeared at the time of the establishment of the Dracorage Mythal, and that Bladesong was supposedly created a thousand years after that. But then I found out these informations were not in canonic material, but in the (excellent, I'd say) Elves of Faerūn PDFs.
Are there canonical sources for the disappearance of the avariel (I think it was probably kind of gradual, but when would one consider them "lost", or already seen as legend)? What about the origins of bladesong, are they mentioned officially anywhere? If so, could you please indicate those sources?
And for our musings: would avariel bladesong styles be different from land-bound elf styles? Maybe more related to birds than to mammals?
|
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2015 : 15:43:06
|
Bladesingers were introduced in the 2e companion book Complete Book of Elves. Their first formal entry into the Realms, I think was the Evermeet: Island of Elves novel by Elaine, and Elves of Evermeet, the sourcebook. They would then show up every now and then in elf-related works, but no history of the style was ever given. For instance, the first mention of a bladesinger in Cormanthyr, which has the master elven timeline, is 253 DR.
The avariel were also introduced in 2e, though a bit later in the run. They first show up as a monster entry in the Complete Book of Elves, then got an expanded, generic D&D treatment in Dragon 233. There are mentions of them in Demihuman Deities. Demihumans of the Realms gives them their own kit with specifics on flying and equipment, etc., which are in some places different than the Dragon article. They were established as having only one homeland, in Sossal, though the Baldur's Gate 2 game later gave them a second, in the far south (not further developed anywhere).
It's been awhile since I reread Evermeet, so I'm a little foggy on how much of the history of the avariel was gone into there. I know the book dealt with the fact that the avariel were fighting the dragons (and in general losing) when the gold and silver elves arrived in northern Faerun.
3e filled in more details during the Rage series. It established that the elves created the Rage, and that the avariel race died almost to the last in a massive battle to protect the Rage citadel from a huge dragon attack. That series of books also established that there are a few other, isolated and near-barbaric, tribes of avariel survivors. I don't remember if the book said where they were.
Put all of this together and I don't see any conceivable way the avariel could be bladesingers, especially since Complete Book of Elves establishes that it takes the better part of a century to learn. As well, bladesong is a way to address a problem of fighting on the ground: how do you cast a spell while also engaged in hand to hand combat? Avariel don't face this problem nearly as much. They fight from the air whenever possible, and it's much easier to draw back enough to get space to cast.
So in conclusion, I'd say that while the avariel probably have fighter/mages, they almost certainly do not have bladesingers. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2015 : 18:37:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Bladesingers were introduced in the 2e companion book Complete Book of Elves. Their first formal entry into the Realms, I think was the Evermeet: Island of Elves novel by Elaine, and Elves of Evermeet, the sourcebook. They would then show up every now and then in elf-related works, but no history of the style was ever given. For instance, the first mention of a bladesinger in Cormanthyr, which has the master elven timeline, is 253 DR.
The avariel were also introduced in 2e, though a bit later in the run. They first show up as a monster entry in the Complete Book of Elves, then got an expanded, generic D&D treatment in Dragon 233. There are mentions of them in Demihuman Deities. Demihumans of the Realms gives them their own kit with specifics on flying and equipment, etc., which are in some places different than the Dragon article. They were established as having only one homeland, in Sossal, though the Baldur's Gate 2 game later gave them a second, in the far south (not further developed anywhere).
It's been awhile since I reread Evermeet, so I'm a little foggy on how much of the history of the avariel was gone into there. I know the book dealt with the fact that the avariel were fighting the dragons (and in general losing) when the gold and silver elves arrived in northern Faerun.
3e filled in more details during the Rage series. It established that the elves created the Rage, and that the avariel race died almost to the last in a massive battle to protect the Rage citadel from a huge dragon attack. That series of books also established that there are a few other, isolated and near-barbaric, tribes of avariel survivors. I don't remember if the book said where they were.
Put all of this together and I don't see any conceivable way the avariel could be bladesingers, especially since Complete Book of Elves establishes that it takes the better part of a century to learn. As well, bladesong is a way to address a problem of fighting on the ground: how do you cast a spell while also engaged in hand to hand combat? Avariel don't face this problem nearly as much. They fight from the air whenever possible, and it's much easier to draw back enough to get space to cast.
So in conclusion, I'd say that while the avariel probably have fighter/mages, they almost certainly do not have bladesingers.
Except for Taegan Nightwind, in the Rogue Dragons books. 
Otherwise, I agree that it seems an odd choice. I'd expect avariel to be all about ranged attacks -- magic, bows, or a combination of both. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2015 : 18:49:11
|
Is he a bladesinger? It's been awhile since I read those books.
On the other hand, his entire purpose of being was to be the anti-avariel, and a big part of his character arc over the series was recognizing that his people actually did have a proud history and had a reason for staying in the wilderness. I find it hard to believe someone who hated his own culture would have chosen to study a field of warfare that was remotely related to them.
So in a way, the exception proves the rule.  |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 01:40:11
|
I thought Taegan was more akin to a duelist. I did have a few quibbles though with an avariel just merrily wandering around the Unapproachable East. In my Realms, Red Wizards and/or the Zhents would have been after him in droves for magical experimentation purposes.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 02:50:45
|
Except for the Rage series, I have all the aforementioned books. I thank you all for the references, specially for knowing that the avariel extermination comes from a canon source.
Avariel actually are first mentioned as winged folk - not necessarily elven - in Dragon # 51. And there are also the ee'aar from savage coast, with a more powerful version of avariel for that world (I think I read somewhere that the race was inspired in the avariel). And finallym, there are the phaethon of Dragonlance, but they have no relation with avariel, being only fire-winged (half-)elves.
Well, since I found out about a canon reference on the avariel, my question now is about the origins (not "in" canon, but in Realmsian history, but mentioned in canon) of Bladesong. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 04:55:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Avariel actually are first mentioned as winged folk - not necessarily elven - in Dragon # 51.
"The Winged Folk"/"Al Karak Elam" in Dragon #51.
They not only reappeared as Avariel in 2e, later two were said to be the same - according to Planescape material, there are two groups:
1) those who call themselves "Al Karak Elam", live on the Beastlands and worship mostly Remnis (the god of giant eagles), and
2) those who call themselves "Avariel", live in domain of Aerdrie Faenya (shared with Syranita) wavering between Ysgard and Arborea, and worship mostly her.
So it looks much like "high" vs. "forest" elven types.
quote:
And there are also the ee'aar from savage coast
Who were explicitly said to be an offshoot of elves and make "elven chain mail". That's also where they got love of glassteel, AFAIK.
quote:
with a more powerful version of avariel for that world
Enduks? Those are winged minotaurs.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
They were established as having only one homeland
Only known settlement on Faerūn that sends out scouts/adventurers is not quite the same as just one and only.
quote:
3e filled in more details during the Rage series. It established that the elves created the Rage, and that the avariel race died almost to the last in a massive battle to protect the Rage citadel from a huge dragon attack.
Which implies there was some contact and cooperation between them and the ground elves, at least in the "early Rage" era.
quote:
Put all of this together and I don't see any conceivable way the avariel could be bladesingers, especially since Complete Book of Elves establishes that it takes the better part of a century to learn.
They could pick it up while cooperating with ground elves.
Or keep it all the way from the ancestors who had contact with other elves (whether in other worlds, or elves who were transformed into avariel - their origin was not given).
quote:
As well, bladesong is a way to address a problem of fighting on the ground: how do you cast a spell while also engaged in hand to hand combat? Avariel don't face this problem nearly as much. They fight from the air whenever possible, and it's much easier to draw back enough to get space to cast.
Good point.
Though it's still an art that happens to give good training in ground mobility, casting in armor and while dodging, etc.
Also, while the avariel may prefer to solve their ground problem with air raids, not only does this depend on the weather, they plainly don't have endurance to fly very long. So they still have to fight on the ground, just not as frequently.
What you missed here, though, is that Taegan from the trilogy was raised in a tribe that lived in a forest and didn't fly much. That is, in conditions where most fighting would indeed be done on the ground - which makes bladesong an actual advantage, rather than an "interesting art form" like it should be for those mountain avariel.
Making it "preferred", though, seems to be a case of the same disease as giving rangers two scimitars in 2e after Drizzt. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 11:14:11
|
Avariel came out of Faerie in the first wave of elven inroads onto Toril with the green elves and lythari (circa -27,000 DR). The dragons quickly learned that they were very tasty and hunted them so much that even before the First Flowering (circa -24,000 DR), they were in danger of being wiped out. For a time, avariel gave up flight to avoid being spotted as easily. Many avariel migrated east in a very slow, grounded trek, scavenging what they could in a miserable existence that resulted in them discovering the Icerim Mountains and Mount Sundabar where they established the Aerie of the Snow Eagles. Luckily for them, the dwarves of Dareth and the dragons of Hoarfaern had already destroyed each other (in -318 DR) and so the avariel could live in seclusion and freedom, safe from dragons until Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet attempted to reestablish contact with them.
---------
At least that's what I've been able to piece together of their history. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 04 Mar 2015 11:21:03 |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 17:44:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
with a more powerful version of avariel for that world
Enduks? Those are winged minotaurs.
I was refering to ee'aar themselves, which have better flight speed, maneuverability, and more HD, among other advantages over the avariel.
quote:
They could pick it up while cooperating with ground elves.
That's why I'm asking about the time of the origin of Bladesong, for if one follows the timeline in Elves of Faerūn, the style would appear a thousand years after the winged elves' disappearance.
Finally, I'm aware about the al karak elam in PlaneScape, but always considered them as avariel, although they call themselves al karak elam. I'm actually writing something that justifies their different deity, name and attitude, in comparison with the other winged elves mentioned in canon.
EDIT: Basically, since some avariel are neutral and others are CG, I understand that some are in the Beastlands and follow Remnis, while others can be found in Aerdrie's realm in Arborea (it is not said that their afterlife is there, and they are petiotioners, but maybe they are, and this was their destination in afterlife, separating warriors and thinkers).
I've just checked Planes of Conflict, which says that the al karak elam are "known to the Clueless as the avariel or winged elves." |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 04 Mar 2015 18:05:02 |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 20:56:07
|
| There really isn't much in the way of the history of bladesong. None of the 2e sources go into it. I think your best bet would be to skim through the Evermeet novel and see when the first reference to a bladesinger is. That would at least give you an outer bound. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 22:51:14
|
Was the bladesinger even an original FR class? I can't recall where it was first published ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 00:30:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Was the bladesinger even an original FR class? I can't recall where it was first published ...
-- George Krashos
Pretty sure it was in the Complete Elven Handbook, which was, I believe, the 8th book of the PHBR series. As with much of the core stuff in that book, it was included in later Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 05:56:50
|
2E PHBR8: Complete Elven Handbook did introduce the Bladesong fighting style, Bladesinger class/kit, and some rule specifics about Avariel and other elven subraces. It presented some Realms-centric overview, but wasnt a proper Realms product.
Some excellent material about Avariel was introduced in the 2E Red Steel / Savage Coast setting, originally written for Mystara but easily adopted (in whole or in part) within the Realms.
Avariel have an instinctive fear of fire so tend to avoid fire-based weapons and magics - a PC avariel might be an exception. They generally make use of incredibly sharp glassteel-enchanted weapons (since they cannot safely work metal forges), but there isnt any reason they wouldnt use magical (metal) weapons forged by others, provided these arent too unwieldy, bulky, and heavy. They have access to a few unique magics, perhaps useful in combat but more about utility.
An avariel bladesinger could use traditional longsword, like most other elven bladesingers. But would probably fare better with a spear. And avoid things like axes, massive bludgeons, and whips because these would complicate flight. Fighting style would likely emphasize mobility and ranged attack, an avariel might dance through the air and skim from point to point along the ground, always maintaining the advantage of manuevering and attacking from heights. An avariel pinned to the ground, unable to manuever through constrained places, and forced to trade blows with a (much more solid and massive) ground opponent would be at a severe disadvantage. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 09:09:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I was refering to ee'aar themselves, which have better flight speed, maneuverability, and more HD, among other advantages over the avariel.
Ah, that. Well, y'know... a creature becomes PC race and ops, it gets nerfed half-dead... 
quote:
That's why I'm asking about the time of the origin of Bladesong, for if one follows the timeline in Elves of Faerūn, the style would appear a thousand years after the winged elves' disappearance.
I didn't find references to either event there. How exactly this was phrased?
Also, "An Elven Chronology at the end of Elves of Faerūn claims (among other strange things) that 290 DR Arkhentus was killed (in Cormanthyr) by "avariel and humans", so what disappearance? 
But even if so, that's just Lord Karsus and his fan.... art. The canon sources on either are absent AFAIK.
quote:
I've just checked Planes of Conflict, which says that the al karak elam are "known to the Clueless as the avariel or winged elves."
It gets better. The Inner Planes got aviary - a bubble of air 15 miles in diameter... on the plane of Earth. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 11:18:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Also, "An Elven Chronology at the end of Elves of Faerūn claims (among other strange things) that 290 DR Arkhentus was killed (in Cormanthyr) by "avariel and humans", so what disappearance?
That's a mistake. The "Cormanthyr" reference is to flying elves and humans in the context of magical flight, not avariel.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 11:58:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
That's why I'm asking about the time of the origin of Bladesong, for if one follows the timeline in Elves of Faerūn, the style would appear a thousand years after the winged elves' disappearance.
I didn't find references to either event there. How exactly this was phrased?
I've found this:
"-25,000 DR ~ In an ancient citadel in the north, the Elves weave the Dracorage Mythal, a planetary-wide Mythal keyed to the appearance of the King-Killer Star in the skies of Abeir-Toril. During the weaving of the Dracorage Mythal, Dragons who knew of the plot arrived and began attacking the citadel. Through the efforts of the Avariel, who took massive casualties, the spell was completed. The first Rage of the Dragons takes place, causing the Dragon barons to lose their minds, and their dominance on the territories they ruled."
EoF vol. 1, p. 161 (there are more details in page 8 of the same document)
And this:
"The origins of the Bladesinger tradition are lost to time. Many cite Corellon Larethian as being the first Bladesinger, who taught it to his children, but these stories are really little more than that - stories. A Moon Elf created the first Bladesinger tradition, though the identity of this visionary has been lost to time. The Bladesong was a tradition that was practiced in many of the ancient Elven Empires of long ago, such as Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Shantel Othrier, and Illefarn, among others. As such, I postulate that the first Bladesinger began practicing his or her trade sometime after the Sundering, long ago in 24,000 DR. Bladesingers have remained on Abeir-Toril since. At some points in time, there have been numerous Bladesingers in existence, such as at the height of Myth Drannor. At other points in time, like most recently, with the Elven Retreat in full force, there has been a relatively small number of Bladesingers on the planet.
Avariel, Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves and Wood Elves are the primary practitioners of the Bladesong tradition."
EoF vol. 1, p. 124
EDIT: Maybe the author could be saying that they embraced Bladesong traditions after regaining contact with land-bound elves. But if this was the case, it gained popularity very quickly indeed, for it to be declared the racial prestige class. And considering that Bladesong requires a hard, special training this would not be easy... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 05 Mar 2015 12:07:32 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 14:21:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
That's a mistake. The "Cormanthyr" reference is to flying elves and humans in the context of magical flight, not avariel.
Obviously. But this demonstrates distortions from overeager conclusion-jumping, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I've found this:
"-25,000 DR ~ In an ancient citadel in the north, the Elves weave the Dracorage Mythal, a planetary-wide Mythal keyed to the appearance of the King-Killer Star in the skies of Abeir-Toril. During the weaving of the Dracorage Mythal, Dragons who knew of the plot arrived and began attacking the citadel. Through the efforts of the Avariel, who took massive casualties, the spell was completed. The first Rage of the Dragons takes place, causing the Dragon barons to lose their minds, and their dominance on the territories they ruled."
EoF vol. 1, p. 161 (there are more details in page 8 of the same document)
Then you're trying to perform a running jump from air castle's roof. Because even in this form:
1) it's obvious that the avariel involved had contact with other elves before the battle (they knew where to go), but
2) it does not follow that all survivors vanished in thin air then and there.
quote:
"The origins of the Bladesinger tradition are lost to time. Many cite Corellon Larethian as being the first Bladesinger, who taught it to his children, but these stories are really little more than that - stories. A Moon Elf created the first Bladesinger tradition, though the identity of this visionary has been lost to time.
[...]
As such, I postulate that the first Bladesinger began practicing his or her trade sometime after the Sundering, long ago in 24,000 DR.
[...]
Avariel, Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves and Wood Elves are the primary practitioners of the Bladesong tradition."
I see.
Anyway, this contradiction is contained entirely inside EoF, and even then, the elf in question admits he makes a wild guess.
quote:
Maybe the author could be saying that they embraced Bladesong traditions after regaining contact with land-bound elves. But if this was the case, it gained popularity very quickly indeed, for it to be declared the racial prestige class. And considering that Bladesong requires a hard, special training this would not be easy...
Also, this doesn't not fit what little we know about Taegan Nightwind.
So there are no official sources on either issue, no "unofficial" canon sources (as in, Chamber of Sages), nor even a coherent fan source.
I guess "Questions for Ed Greenwood" thread is the only remaining path. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 17:45:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Then you're trying to perform a running jump from air castle's roof. Because even in this form:
1) it's obvious that the avariel involved had contact with other elves before the battle (they knew where to go), but
2) it does not follow that all survivors vanished in thin air then and there.
Actually, this is why I'm asking, in first place. I started this thread recognizing that there were conflicting informations in the good work of Lord Karsus, and asked if anyone knew of canon sources to help in this (EoF was written considering the Sundering in -24,000, so maybe newer sources could have revised details about the avariel or the origins of Bladesong).
I understand that land-bound elves had contact with avariel, they only could not have created Bladesong then. As for them disappearing, I also questioned about this in this very thread - when would you consider them vanished?
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Also, this doesn't not fit what little we know about Taegan Nightwind.
So there are no official sources on either issue, no "unofficial" canon sources (as in, Chamber of Sages), nor even a coherent fan source.
I guess "Questions for Ed Greenwood" thread is the only remaining path.
I don't know much of Taegan, for I don't have The Year of the Rogue Dragons, as I mentioned before... If there are no sources, this is actually an answer to my question. As for the "Questions for Ed", I'm not sure he wrote anything about the avariel, but yes, I can ask him. Or maybe I could ask the author of the Rage trilogy, Richard Lee Byers. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 18:01:58
|
Meh. The Planescape material linking the al karak elam to avariel is either sloppy design or another example of "variety is bad; cut that out." The al karak elam were clearly not elven in the Dragon #51 article.
Before the Rage of Dragons trilogy, Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves establishes (pg 21) that avariel were decimated in fighting dragons during the Dawn Ages (including the establishment of the dracorage mythal though it's not mentioned in this source), and the last of them (is believed to have) retreated to Evermeet before the founding of Aryvandaar. So at that point they would be "lost" at least as far as Faerun is concerned. Only elves who spent some time on Evermeet would know of their continued existence.
An adventure hook in Elves of Evermeet (pg 120) introduces an avariel colony on Mount Sundabar which is apparently ignorant of the Retreat. This suggests to me that other far-flung pockets of survivors are possible, but that's a tangent.
I don't have anything to add regarding canon sources for bladesingers. Just didn't see the specific statement in Cormanthyr mentioned and wanted to note that.
In my games, I'll be assuming that bladesingers have existed among the elves since their earliest days in Faerun, and that all of the subraces would have access to training though it's a more common pursuit for some than others.
Taegan was unusual for his willingness to interact with non-elves and live among them. Given his human-like behavior, making him a bladesinger (if in fact he was) makes some sense... but only because the avariel mentality was removed. I like putting individuals of various races in unusual places and situations, but Taegan would be a target of so many antagonists that it would cease being fun to live among humans.
|
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 21:10:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Meh. The Planescape material linking the al karak elam to avariel is either sloppy design or another example of "variety is bad; cut that out." The al karak elam were clearly not elven in the Dragon #51 article.
(...)
Actually, this link was made in The Complete Book of Elves. The final phrase of the avariel entry says clearly:
"The Avariel originally appeared in DRAGON Magazine, issue #51, as "The Winged Folk". The race has been modified here."
EDIT: I've missed the Cormanthyr mention, gotta check it out. And finally, the avariel mentioned in Elves of Evermeet would be the same later mentioned in the Aerie of Snow Eagles (in Deminuman Deities and later edition sources, like Races of Faerūn, for example). The Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy is also a later source. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 06 Mar 2015 21:18:12 |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 00:27:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Actually, this link was made in The Complete Book of Elves.
Nice catch; I didn't read the MC entry earlier today.
Hmph. I liked the Complete Book of Elves when it was new, and I like having the avariel in the Realms, but I thumbs-down the movement among some designers and/or decision-makers of combining races (and everything else). Make something new; don't alter someone else's work. /rant. |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 12:51:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Before the Rage of Dragons trilogy, Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves establishes (pg 21) that avariel were decimated in fighting dragons during the Dawn Ages (including the establishment of the dracorage mythal though it's not mentioned in this source), and the last of them (is believed to have) retreated to Evermeet before the founding of Aryvandaar.
Heh... "have taken wing from Faerūn and flown west over the ocean" have a more interesting meaning than "to Evermeet".
quote:
So at that point they would be "lost" at least as far as Faerun is concerned. Only elves who spent some time on Evermeet would know of their continued existence.
Evermeet isn't quite that insolated.
quote:
an avariel colony on Mount Sundabar which is apparently ignorant of the Retreat. This suggests to me that other far-flung pockets of survivors are possible, but that's a tangent.
Well, we know less-civilized scattered tribes like Taegan's do exist. They just tend to keep the low profile, what with not having a glassteel fort.
quote:
Taegan was unusual for his willingness to interact with non-elves and live among them. Given his human-like behavior, making him a bladesinger (if in fact he was) makes some sense... but only because the avariel mentality was removed.
Why "willingness to interact with non-elves"? The avariel aren't much more fond of other elves than of humans. It's more that he got bored crazy, ran off and started learning from humans because the bunch he met looked shiny. A philosophical magpie, if you will.
And why "the avariel mentality was removed"? He retained the parts about being easygoing and aesthetics-minded perfectionist, it's just that he happened to find the crowd where this blended in well.
quote:
I like putting individuals of various races in unusual places and situations, but Taegan would be a target of so many antagonists that it would cease being fun to live among humans.
Taegan had this - remember what happened when he reported to the Court? He also had a great big crowd of influential fanboys and fangirls, which negated most of such problems. And wasn't such a big bug that trying to get him would be worth the effort - right until he ran into Sammaster's little helpers. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 14:54:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Before the Rage of Dragons trilogy, Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves establishes (pg 21) that avariel were decimated in fighting dragons during the Dawn Ages (including the establishment of the dracorage mythal though it's not mentioned in this source), and the last of them (is believed to have) retreated to Evermeet before the founding of Aryvandaar.
Heh... "have taken wing from Faerūn and flown west over the ocean" have a more interesting meaning than "to Evermeet".
Since Evermeet seems to imply that the avariel of Mt. Sundabar would be the first winged elves in the Green Isle, there are no avariel in the book even among the secrets of the Island (which included dragon riders and spelljamming ships), and it seems that Evermeet was created after the northwestern migration of the avariel of the past, I think it is more likely that these winged elves would have migrated to northern Maztica, or the arctic lands beyond. Maybe there is an avariel civilization, there. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 22:03:46
|
I never took the reference to the avariel flying west over the ocean to mean they flew to Evermeet. That's because there was no Evermeet for them to fly to at the time.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 06:21:06
|
| The avariel flying to Evermeet was a brainfart on my part. My bad. |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2015 : 16:05:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I never took the reference to the avariel flying west over the ocean to mean they flew to Evermeet. That's because there was no Evermeet for them to fly to at the time.
-- George Krashos
That's what I was trying to say. And that the avariel mission mentioned in the end of Elves of Evermeet was successful, after all, for they found the winged elves of the "Aerie of the Snow Eagles" (which were mentioned in later sourcebooks). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 10 Mar 2015 16:06:07 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2015 : 23:57:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I thought Taegan was more akin to a duelist. I did have a few quibbles though with an avariel just merrily wandering around the Unapproachable East. In my Realms, Red Wizards and/or the Zhents would have been after him in droves for magical experimentation purposes.
-- George Krashos
I like the way you think, goodsir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 14:53:02
|
It is written in 2e Demihumans of the Realms that Red Wizards know about the avariel and try to hunt them for magical experimentation or for using their body parts for the devising of magic items (a write-up on the comment about wizards as foes of the avariel in The Complete book of Elves). It also says from which region are the giants who hunt them for using their feathers in their helmets - although I think avariel wings would be too big for a D&D giant's helm.
Where is Taegan from, exactly? Is his tribe of origin placed in the Unnaproachable East, in the novel? Where exactly?
EDIT: typos (and still waiting for someone to answer for my questions) |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 12 Mar 2015 14:24:29 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 17:31:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I thought Taegan was more akin to a duelist.
He taught "mundane" fencing to humans, obviously, but he was said to be bladesinger and did cast while fighting.
quote:
I did have a few quibbles though with an avariel just merrily wandering around the Unapproachable East. In my Realms, Red Wizards and/or the Zhents would have been after him in droves for magical experimentation purposes.
Depending from where exactly he arrived. But if he didn't slow down until he landed in Lyrabar, he'd have to deal only with opportunists, not organized enemies. Until then, he could well wing it. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 14:31:54
|
| His tribe is 'lost' and after the Rogue Dragons trilogy, he sets out on a quest to find them. He's otherwise stated as hailing from Lyrabar. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 16:22:09
|
| So he supposedly showed up in Lyrabar after leaving his tribe? Or it is possible that he came from a more distant place? I wonder if his tribe was nearby Lyrabar when he left them... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Avariel (and) Bladesingers
