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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 10:18:59
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I've heard lots of complains about the sensless killing in FR novels. Is there really too much blood and loose bodyparts? I think not. Of course it depends who wrote the novel, but who cares about farmer Frank having trouble with his sick cow?
And are the heroes too powerful? That also depends, but its kinda hard to build an epic story with a guy who gets beaten up by the first goblin he meets.
There is a fine line between too much and not enough, but I think that all that killing is a part of fantasy novel. Others may freely disagree
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 11:57:14
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Too much? Hardly. And it's not even very explicit for the most part; all FR novels seem to be in the PG-13 range.
I do enjoy story and chracter development far more than I do action, though, which is why I stopped reading R.A. Salvatore. |
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 12:10:38
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It is rewarding to see characters grow in power as well as mentally, but it has to stop somewhere. I mean that level1 rogue grows into Artemis Entreri but then what? Even though the author would keep on writing it isn't so intresting anymore.
About Salvatore I've got this to say:
I've read almost all of his FR books and I've gotta say that Drizzt's abilities are going to the wrong direction. In the first books from Salvatore Drizzt was this 'all mighty fighting machine', but now it seems that his group has gained more power and Drizzt's powers are going nowhere. I realize that Drizzt truly is a munchkin and the group should be more balanced. Still, Drizzt is the heart of Salvatore's FR novels and I'd like to see it that way in the future. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 15:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I do enjoy story and chracter development far more than I do action
I agree. Give me those elements over a well written chase or battle scene any day. I don't think the latest novels I've read have contained an abundance of hack and slash or emphasized those elements over character or story development. But, I'm careful on which authors I choose to read and once I find someone enjoyable, I tend to stick with that author. |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 16:05:50
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Greetings!
Actually I think it would be kind of funny if someone made a chracter who started out fighting kobolts, goblins, beetels, etc.
Or a comical character who can't do better. |
Learn about the Ways of Vhaeraun .
- Check out my bio, majore update
- The Wanderers Quest
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 16:50:10
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That remains me of how there isn't any comical novels of FR.
Though comedy is not a real part of fantasy novels, I'd like to see someone try. |
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Teflon
Seeker
60 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 18:45:58
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| I wouldnt mind seein another novel kinda like the one with Volo. |
In any battle, the mightiest weapon is one that strikes unseen.
A Warrior or Wizard may be invincible in open battle, with their foes before them, but even they must sleep sometime, and cannot parry the knife that comes from behind.
-The life of a assassin. |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 18:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Narad Bladesinger
That remains me of how there isn't any comical novels of FR.
Though comedy is not a real part of fantasy novels, I'd like to see someone try.
If you want to read some comic fantasy novels I would recommend Terry Prathcetts novels from the Discworld series, they are hilarius.
And I most protest when you say that comedy is not a part of fantasy novels since the series mentioned above prove that it are. And books like the Soddit and Bored of the Rings do likevise. |
Learn about the Ways of Vhaeraun .
- Check out my bio, majore update
- The Wanderers Quest
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 19:07:14
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Ah, there is a novel with some comedy? I'd like to read it.
But back to the topic.
Has the Hack and Slash earned FR and other fantasy settings a bad reputation? Parents get worried because their precious child is into fantasy novels.
So does all that killing affect our minds? Do we become mad killers? I say no and I laugh to all who say 'yes'. If a kid is old enough and in his/her senses, this kind of stuff shouldn't change anything. People take things like this too seriously and if they don't like to read fantasy novels thats their problem.
If they would just let other people to read them. |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 19:34:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Narad Bladesinger
Ah, there is a novel with some comedy? I'd like to read it.
But back to the topic.
Has the Hack and Slash earned FR and other fantasy settings a bad reputation? Parents get worried because their precious child is into fantasy novels.
So does all that killing affect our minds? Do we become mad killers? I say no and I laugh to all who say 'yes'. If a kid is old enough and in his/her senses, this kind of stuff shouldn't change anything. People take things like this too seriously and if they don't like to read fantasy novels thats their problem.
If they would just let other people to read them.
There is fantasy novels which contains comedy, but there are not any Forgotten Realms novels who are pure comedy, but I think a pariaodi would been fun 
If anyone become mad killers by reading Forgotten Realms novels I think they would have turned out pretty bad anyway, and I do not think they do very much bad influence.
But I think that the newest hack'n slah games give the Forgotten Realms a bad reputaition since they focus to much on the killing and since there are less learning. My ecscuse for playing the Forgotten Realms games when I was about 9-10 was that I learned a lot of english by playing and that ther was more thinking then killing. So I now think that there will be less kids who are aloudet to play the nwew Forgotten Realms games. And thats a shame. 
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Learn about the Ways of Vhaeraun .
- Check out my bio, majore update
- The Wanderers Quest
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 19:55:48
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About those mad killers, I agree. Reading novels wouldn't change anything.
About FR games I really enjoyed the Baldurs Gate 2 for you can decide how you handle things.
Icewind Dale was a total disapointment 'cause you couldn't decide what to do next. You just went and killed everything that moved. Didn't like it.
It is a good point that FR games make FR seem as something about endless killing. People really set stereotypes like that very easily so it is bad for FR. |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 20:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Narad Bladesinger
Has the Hack and Slash earned FR and other fantasy settings a bad reputation? Parents get worried because their precious child is into fantasy novels.
Actually, the shift of the moral majority ire has shifted away from RPG and moved to computer based RPG like Everquest. Last I heard there was a pending or recently filed lawsuit against Everquest from a mother who lost her mentally disturbed son via a suicide. She believes Everquest contributed to his action and is not only seeking damages but wants warning labels placed on the Everquest products. |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 21:46:41
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| Even with that, the pendulum's still likely to swing back our way due to the D&D MMORPG... |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 22:05:57
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FR novels are sword-and-sorcery novels, and, in my humble opinion, don't contain excessive amounts of killing, senseless or otherwise, compared to other works in the same sub-genre. Look at the body counts the characters like Conan, Kull, Solomon Kane, Elric, the Gray Mouser, Kane, Bran mac Morn, John Carter, Dray Prescott, and Fafhrd run up. The average FR protagonist has got nothing on these guys when it comes to slaughter and bloodshed.
So, to my way of thinking, it's kind of pointless for somebody to single out FR fiction to criticize on the basis of the violent content. It would be more intelligent to discuss whether S&S fiction as a whole is worthwhile, socially responsible, or whatever. (As you can probably guess, I think it is, or I wouldn't be writing the stuff.) |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 23:35:58
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I was reading a particularly graphic scene from Maiden to my wife the other night, and she had to stop me and ask if it got any gorier (is that a word), because she couldn't hear anymore if it did. Does that mean I'm being excessive? Nobody died, and it certainly wasn't senseless. (Not to mention my wife does not have a high tolerance for violence and gore.)  |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 00:10:29
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| I'd hope you're allowed to be a bit more graphic in your novel, what with the strong connection to the goddess of pain and torture... |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 01:50:34
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| Well, the opening of the prologue, which was included in my original proposal sent to WotC for the open call, contained probably one of the three most graphic/violent scenes in the book, and they still picked me (and Phil didn't say anything about dropping it). Hopefully that's a good sign that I won't be asked to hold back. Besides, I'm not really the type of person that enjoys gore just for the sake of shock, so I try to avoid such graphic visuals unless it is really necessary to explain or balance a character's reaction. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 03:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
I was reading a particularly graphic scene from Maiden to my wife the other night, and she had to stop me and ask if it got any gorier (is that a word), because she couldn't hear anymore if it did. Does that mean I'm being excessive? Nobody died, and it certainly wasn't senseless. (Not to mention my wife does not have a high tolerance for violence and gore.)
For me it depends
Are you providing graphic detail to provoke a response from the reader? Are you trying to get the reader to hate the villian by explitly describing there actions? If so then yes its ok. Incidently this is something that seems to be lacking from most FR books its vary rare that you actually come away hating the villian in an FR novel theres a few exceptions most recently Black Bouquet I really despised the Dark moon monk by the end of the novel.
To use an example from another medium when I went and saw Fellowship of the Ring at a Cinema, a good part of the audience let out a cheer when Aragorn killed the Orc Leader at the end of the movie |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 04:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I'd hope you're allowed to be a bit more graphic in your novel,
Here's a question for Richard Lee Byers since I saw a reply from him in this thread. Have you in your experiences as a writer for WOTC been asked to tone down a scene that was too graphic be it violently or sexually? I figure anyone who has written the drow and Sembia would be qualified to answer this question. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 06:35:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Narad Bladesinger
That remains me of how there isn't any comical novels of FR.
Though comedy is not a real part of fantasy novels, I'd like to see someone try.
Oh yes, do try Terry Pratchett. He's amazing, and he pokes fun at fantasy cliches, Shakespeare (MacBeth, Midsummer Night's Dream), patriotism, even some religion -- in the most irreverent, giggle-inducing way.
quote:
Originally posted by Narad Bladesinger
Has the Hack and Slash earned FR and other fantasy settings a bad reputation? Parents get worried because their precious child is into fantasy novels.
So does all that killing affect our minds? Do we become mad killers? I say no and I laugh to all who say 'yes'. If a kid is old enough and in his/her senses, this kind of stuff shouldn't change anything. People take things like this too seriously and if they don't like to read fantasy novels thats their problem.
If they would just let other people to read them.
That kind of attitude makes me want to do something violent, you know. Just like the parents who don't let their children read fantasy because it's "evil" and "against Christianity." Thankfully, my parents never screened anything I read. And I still grew up fine, without once committing homicide or, oh, having pre-marital sex or something. Or conjuring spirits. I believe there are Christian nutcases that go as far as condemning LOTR -- despite the fact that Tolkien was a devout Catholic himself. Human stupidity can be fearsome, and some days I just feel ashamed to be part of the Homo sapiens species. (Hey, some mad lab, take me in and mutate me into something else, please?)
I don't mind graphic sexuality and/or violence (am a fan of A Song of Ice and Fire and cheerfully devoured Kushiel's Dart), so long that they have a point. Gratuitous explicit scenes just for the sake of it are just that: gratuitous. Pointless.
Someone brought it up -- I used to play EverQuest. That lady who wanted to sue Sony for her son's suicide was a biiiig thing for a while. We had quite a lot of vicious fun discussing the deal at the EQCaster Realm forums. Seriously, for someone to commit suicide over a game, there has to already be something wrong with his head. Besides, who supplied his monthly payment for EQ? His mother. Who supplied him with a computer? Again, his mother. Well, gee. *slaps own forehead* |
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 08:29:55
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And why do people (some at least) get religion mixed with anything fantasy-realted? In some books there are things that might upset religious people, but they are just books.
About that graphic violence/sex in books, you really just imagine it in your head. So it is up to you how you'll feel about it.
For example when I read my first FR novel (must have been the first fantasy novel also) I was suprised by the amount of violense.
Now that I have read over 50 fantasy novels it just doesn't feel that bad anymore. Violence has become a part of fantasy novels (I quess it has always been) and I realize that all those stories would be hollow without all that violence.
Why do people keep on sueing (<-- hope thats english) for every little reason? Though this Everquest thing had a big reason, isn't it more like that family's own problem? Many people get a lot of good time from games like Everquest and if all those games were shut down because one kid made a suicide, it would be a shame.
And how did that kids mother know it was Everquest that caused the suicide? Parents just don't know about their children nowdays, right?
Oh, and let me quess, this happened in USA? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 09:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Narad Bladesinger
Oh, and let me quess, this happened in USA?
I believe so, yes. |
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 10:27:44
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| That wasn't very difficult to quess. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 14:30:08
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Sirius, the answer to your question is: No. So far, WotC hasn't asked me to tone down anything.
By my perhaps depraved standards, I haven't yet attempted anything in my FR work that pushes the limits. I would if the plot demanded it, but to date, I haven't concocted a FR plot like that.
Perhaps I'm not likely to, and wouldn't be likely to get the proposal green-lighted if I did. The FR are intended to be a setting for heroic fantasy, not splatterpunk horror.
Which is not to say that I (and, I imagine, other writers) won't be serving up an intensely gruesome or disturbing moment once in a while, where it creates the proper dramatic effect. If a reader picks up on every little throwaway descriptive detail and what have you, there's some nasty stuff in Dissolution. It's just that I don't drag it out or rub your nose in it. There's no reason to do so, and, in fact, a good reason not to do so. The fact that the viewpoint characters have such a casual, ho-hum perspective on it tells you something important about them and their world. |
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 15:23:54
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Must be kinda difficult to describe someone as an evil person by making the him pick flowers and help old ladies over the street.
Everyone should understand that its not that the authors are loving torturing and that kind of stuff, it is just a part of the story.
And what kind of a self-respecting criminal does charity instead of killing/torturing anyway? |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 15:39:10
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I’m going to heartily second Winterfox here, and recommend you run, don’t walk, to obtain some Terry Pratchett novels. Which one to start with is a matter of large debate, but DO sample Discworld. Terry is one of Ed’s heroes; Ed calls him: “Arguably the best living fantasy writer – and unquestionably the funniest and the most brilliant satirist.” Terry, Ed, and a fan did a Discworld panel together at this year’s Worldcon (THE annual sf convention, which “all” of the writers attend), whereat Ed played “sly straight man” for Terry, and had Terry laughing more than once.
The next Discworld novel, A Hat Full of Sky (the second Tiffany Aching book, of a series that began with Wee Free Men and is supposedly for younger readers) will be out in a few weeks. Then there’s either an Atlas or an Almanac in the fall (I’ll have to talk to Ed again; I’ve forgotten the details), and in November, the next adult Discworld novel. Here’s what Terry told me about it: A convicted fraud artist is standing on the scaffold about to be hanged when a rider arrives, at the last second, with a pardon from Lord V (later, the despairing felon asks this rider, “Couldn’t you have just WALKED?”). In exchange for his life, the felon is under orders to resurrect Ankh-Morpork’s long-moribund postal system. At his audience with Lord V, he protests, “But I don’t know anything about mail! All I know how to do is lie, cheat, and swindle people!”
Whereupon Lord V shakes his hand with a big smile and says, “Welcome to government service!”
:}
Good one, Winterfox. I apologize for earlier. I’m sorry.
And to reply to the original question: yes, Ed’s been asked to tone down or cut out both scenes and entire chapters. But then again, he’s also had Realms editors ask him to “sex this up” because “you’re one of the few writers we’ve got who can and will find the titillation line and walk it, with a bit of nudging.”
THAT comment caused much hilarity in the ‘original’ Realms gaming group. :}
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 15:52:08
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YOU know Terry Pratchett, Hooded Lady? Wow.
That Ed Greenwood knows him, of course. Man, how can I join that secret club? :}
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 16:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Narad Bladesinger
Oh, and let me quess, this happened in USA?
Yes, the case involving the lawsuit against Sony (they are the makers of Everquest I believe) was based out of Kentucky, U.S. to be exact and yes the person had a long history of mental illness.
But, for those wishing to lash out against the USA, the THAI government recently started cracking down on Internet Cafes and setting curfews for online gaming. This action has come in response to parents and politicians fearing children as young as seven are becoming heavily addicted to the game.
I've read fantasy works since age ten. That was well over two decades ago and I have yet to commit harm to myself or others. If and when I commit a violent act, it will be for the obvious reason...the person deserved it. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 16:36:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Sirius, the answer to your question is: No. So far, WotC hasn't asked me to tone down anything.
I thought that would be the response, but I wanted to ask and make sure. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
quote:
Which is not to say that I (and, I imagine, other writers) won't be serving up an intensely gruesome or disturbing moment once in a while, where it creates the proper dramatic effect. If a reader picks up on every little throwaway descriptive detail and what have you, there's some nasty stuff in Dissolution. It's just that I don't drag it out or rub your nose in it.
Exactly, I think it's a credit to a writer like yourself and others who have participated in the WOTSQ, that some adult subject matter can come up and be detailed, but not over the top in graphic description. Pharaun's visit to the Jewel Box in Dissolution and his conversation with Pellanistra stand out as an example of what I'm referring to.
quote:
There's no reason to do so, and, in fact, a good reason not to do so. The fact that the viewpoint characters have such a casual, ho-hum perspective on it tells you something important about them and their world.
Additionally, if a writer bombards a reader with violent acts in great detail, I think after awhile, the reader will become numb or used to such events. Therefore, when something important happens in the plot that involves an act of violence, the dramatic effect is lessened. Case in point, Winterfox mentioned George R.R. Martin's series. These books contain a great deal of adult subjects both sexually and violently. However, Martin does not, in my opinion, linger on the violence or make it forever present. Thus, when he has a scene like The Red Wedding where an act of violence is to have a great impact on the reader, it does.
Perhaps sometimes the skill in a writer isn't so much as what is described, but what isn't. Just a novice's thought. |
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Hack and slash - not enough or too much?
