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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1269 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Back in 1e or 2e, there were multiple different types/styles of arrows. The most common were flight arrows and (iirc) sheaf arrows. Flight arrows had a longer range, sheaf arrows caused more damage. Then there were leaf head arrows, frog (?) arrows and a few others, for various purposes.
I thought that was awesome, and I can see having similar differentiation for bolts.
Yes. You also have different types of heads for differing purposes. A head with a more sleek design is intended to go straight through a target, while a head designed to merely penetrate might have barbs to make it cause more damage if it is pulled out or pushed through. Heavier or stronger woods for the shaft make a bolt more durable, as well, and increase your chances of recovery. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:41:58
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I kinda don't see the hand crossbow as being a combat weapon. As noted, it's slow. Reloading has to be done after each shot and takes two hands, unless we're talking about "repeating" hand crossbows, which would be a whole new level of impractical.
So melee folks can fire a hand crossbow in the "surprise round" and then close for melee... it gives them an extra attack in some situations. But I don't see any situations where it's going to be appropriate for someone to continue using a hand crossbow beyond the first round of combat... except a pre-4e wizard who's run out of spells, and in that case a bigger crossbow would be more effective. In short, a hand crossbow is best in situations where it can be used to avoid combat.
In my opinion, not only is "sniping" possible with a hand crossbow but it's actually the most valid use for it. The main value of a hand crossbow is in (A) being easily concealed and snuck into places you're not supposed to bring weapons into, (B) firing a poisoned dart at a target you can't walk up to and shank, (C) firing that bolt from a space/position where you don't have room to fire a bow or throw a dart, and (C2) firing that bolt with more force than is possible to achieve with a blowgun dart.
So a bolt fired from a hand crossbow needs to prick the skin, and maybe it has enough force to penetrate soft leather or padded armor, but probably nothing heavier than that. If your target is armored, you're going to be looking for the back of his neck or an exposed armpit or thigh.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:47:10
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Flight (most range) and Sheaf (most damage) arrows were available in AD&D1E/2E PHB equipment lists, although they only mattered for longbows since bows ("shortbows") always used lesser range and damage figures anyhow. Silver-tipped arrows were also listed. And any arrow could be dipped in poison or (un)holy water for a price.
2E PHBR4: Complete Thieves' Handbook and PHBR8: Complete Elven Handbook contained some other varieties. The more useful being a "stonebiter" arrowhead/grapple attached to a climbing line and a hollow "message arrow" which could deliver a tightly rolled scroll. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1269 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I kinda don't see the hand crossbow as being a combat weapon. As noted, it's slow. Reloading has to be done after each shot and takes two hands, unless we're talking about "repeating" hand crossbows, which would be a whole new level of impractical.
So melee folks can fire a hand crossbow in the "surprise round" and then close for melee... it gives them an extra attack in some situations. But I don't see any situations where it's going to be appropriate for someone to continue using a hand crossbow beyond the first round of combat... except a pre-4e wizard who's run out of spells, and in that case a bigger crossbow would be more effective. In short, a hand crossbow is best in situations where it can be used to avoid combat.
In my opinion, not only is "sniping" possible with a hand crossbow but it's actually the most valid use for it. The main value of a hand crossbow is in (A) being easily concealed and snuck into places you're not supposed to bring weapons into, (B) firing a poisoned dart at a target you can't walk up to and shank, (C) firing that bolt from a space/position where you don't have room to fire a bow or throw a dart, and (C2) firing that bolt with more force than is possible to achieve with a blowgun dart.
So a bolt fired from a hand crossbow needs to prick the skin, and maybe it has enough force to penetrate soft leather or padded armor, but probably nothing heavier than that. If your target is armored, you're going to be looking for the back of his neck or an exposed armpit or thigh.
I agree for the most part. Depending on a hand crossbow like some people depend on a six-shooter in a wild west gunfight is going to end poorly. What I meant by a combat weapon is that it can penetrate and do damage. Like you said, you'll be aiming for the vitals, but so is a man with a longsword. It's far better for you to make sure you do some damage at least. A glancing blow with a longsword, or a bolt that misses the armpit and hits the leather or plate, is still doing something if it can penetrate the armor. If the bolt is so small that it either hits and kills its target, or it just bounces or harmlessly nicks someone, then I wouldn't want to rely on it, even for sniping. I want my target at least a little hurt before he comes after me.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 08:25:08
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Hand crossbows do bugger all damage but they found their niche in the D&D firmament thanks to the drow - who didn't use them for damage, but rather as a delivery system for their unique sleep poison.
-- Goerge Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 17:27:32
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| On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 17:46:48
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| Interesting reverse draw xbow. More compact. Not sure of the draw and reload, but I assume it is comparable given the stirrup. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 08 Mar 2015 17:49:14 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 17:51:11
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quote:
Sir Krashos
Hand crossbows do bugger all damage but they found their niche in the D&D firmament thanks to the drow - who didn't use them for damage, but rather as a delivery system for their unique sleep poison.
More of an iconic weapon, methinks. Just as a dagger is hardly considered much of a threatening weapon compared to a longsword or battle-axe, but in the hands of a skilled assassin it can be a fearful and serious cause of death. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 18:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"?
Those are wicked. Not sure how practical they would be in "real life" though. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1269 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 21:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"?
Those are wicked. Not sure how practical they would be in "real life" though.
Not very. Wrist crossbows would be highly impractical one shot wonders. See this video for the details. Incidentally, that guy's channel is very useful if you want to learn a few things about medieval combat. I don't always agree with him, but he provides some good food for thought.
Now, in a world with magic, a heavily enchanted wrist crossbow could overcome the practical hurdles. Add a little poison to that, and you're really talking.
One last note, if you want some more details on crossbows, this video is a good summary. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 23:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"?
Those are wicked. Not sure how practical they would be in "real life" though.
Not very. Wrist crossbows would be highly impractical one shot wonders. See this video for the details. Incidentally, that guy's channel is very useful if you want to learn a few things about medieval combat. I don't always agree with him, but he provides some good food for thought.
Now, in a world with magic, a heavily enchanted wrist crossbow could overcome the practical hurdles. Add a little poison to that, and you're really talking.
One last note, if you want some more details on crossbows, this video is a good summary.
Ah yes I love that guy! I enjoyed his video making fun of Skyrim's impractical weapons.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1269 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 23:59:02
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| Yep! I've not seen all his stuff, but I use a few of his videos to help newbies to tabletop understand the balance between realistic rules and fun rules. I usually see a drop in requests for ways to have Stealthy platemail and a rise in requests for wands of Silence. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 00:32:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Yep! I've not seen all his stuff, but I use a few of his videos to help newbies to tabletop understand the balance between realistic rules and fun rules. I usually see a drop in requests for ways to have Stealthy platemail and a rise in requests for wands of Silence.
Lol players will try to get away with anything. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 16:38:41
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| Nimble Plate Mail of Silent Moves |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 20:37:02
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Hand crossbows are smaller and lighter than standard crossbows [...] This makes them easier to carry and conceal, and therefore an attractive option in any scenario calling for stealth or deception.
[...]
Edit: Smaller size also explains higher price, without necessarily depending on a more complex mechanism. It's highly improbable that you'll sneak a crossbow past the guards
True enough, but it's a tiny portion of its usage, and thus demand. It's not going to determine cost.
Drow carry HC routinely, and so do many others (e.g. Neverwinter militia).
quote:
There's also more than just the firing mechanism when it comes to considering a more complicated construction. For example, what if the uh... I don't know the terminology, but the "arms" of the crossbow are hinged and can be closed to make an even smaller package?
Indeed. But in single-shot scenario greater range and penetration and thus stronger bow still would be preferrable. Also, a torsion machine would be both more powerful and already got rotating arms, without any extra joints and hinges.
Either way, there AFAIK are zero references to this being normal for drow hand crossbow. We can assume they got some experiments in this area now and then, but those are too rare to define design of a run-of-the-mill weapon.
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Anyone know the size of a handcrossbow bolt? They would have to be so small that I'd think only a neck or eye hit would be an instant kill.
Short bolt... fin-stabilized (because it's short and slow)... those are also known as darts. 
The enchanted "Bolts of Power" even were explicitly said to be darts fit both for throwing and shooting.
And yes, hand crossbow normally relies on poison - just like a blowgun.
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
With the dart, blowgun, throwing dagger, even the sling, each has the same drawback and reason you'd choose the hand crossbow over the other. The dart, blowgun, sling all depend on the user's strength of arm or breath for range
True. But the downside is that hand crossbow is rather weak.
Also, it depend on the user's strength for reload.
quote:
going off the name, the pneumatic sleeve-gun is something like an air-soft gun that can be hidden up the sleeve. A consideration there would be ease of maintenance.
That was my summary; as written, it's "gas-powered needle-throwers" in context of maximally concealable (to the point of being "worked into clothing") emergency gadgets. Which defines general design: thin pipe with thin bands or wires as safety/trigger, cap on the muzzle - if worn without holster, there can't be more moving parts than necessary. But then it should be reloadable (without a ready source of compressed gas) no faster than a heavy crossbow - if the user already got a special tool of comparable size on hands and next load ready. The whole point of this niche is that everything else is sacrificed for the advantage of surprise - to have at all that one shot.
quote:
I wouldn't say that a more complex mechanism is the only explanation. As Xaeyruudh points out, the smaller design takes more skill to craft. Same reason a well-made pocket watch can cost more than a well made wall clock.
Does it? Especially when routinely produced. The basic version is not clockwork, it's very simple. How much precision do its parts need, beyond not having slack in the wrong places and nut itself being smooth? But a mechanism with return springs, greater leverage for soft trigger pull, etc - to work reliably, it requires every part to fit well. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1269 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 21:51:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
I wouldn't say that a more complex mechanism is the only explanation. As Xaeyruudh points out, the smaller design takes more skill to craft. Same reason a well-made pocket watch can cost more than a well made wall clock.
Does it? Especially when routinely produced. The basic version is not clockwork, it's very simple. How much precision do its parts need, beyond not having slack in the wrong places and nut itself being smooth? But a mechanism with return springs, greater leverage for soft trigger pull, etc - to work reliably, it requires every part to fit well.
I think I see what you're going for there. But even when I routinely paint a miniature, it takes more skill and time to paint something small and intricate than it does to do a similar thing with a larger miniature. Much the same idea can be applied to a watch or hand crossbow. You have smaller parts, requiring more delicate placement. The wheel and lever mechanism on my own hand crossbow is a miniature version of larger crossbows. Practice does make it easier to construct, but that ease would be reflected by a higher "skill modifier" if you will. You're quite possibly paying for the skill needed to make something that well, even if it's easy for the craftsman.
If I started a business painting minis, I'm not charging based solely on how hard it is to paint the mini, I'm charging based on how much skill I have. If I'm good enough to call myself a professional, I'm going to charge more for a mini, regardless of how difficult or easy it is to produce it.
I don't know if I'm explaining myself well here, but I hope I conveyed what I'm thinking.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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hand crossbow
