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koteko
Acolyte
4 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 01:43:33
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First of all, hello :) first post here, although I've been lurking for years, seeking information on the FR lore.
As I'm not a D&D player myself, and do not own any rule book, I find my knowledge fragmentary to say the least (ie, mostly gathered from wikis, video games and FR narrative books). I was thus hoping to have some direction regarding a specific topic: Imps as wizard's familiars.
If you could provide a specific resource answering the following questions, I would be happy to go find a copy and not bother you further; however I would very much appreciate specific answers, too, as they'd make my "work" faster. Any additional source, like narrative books, would also be a good complement. I've already read all Elminster- and Drizzt-related books, though.
So without further ado, this are the questions that have been bugging me:
- What is the relationship between a wizard and its familiar (imp, specifically)? Is the latter bound to obey the wizard, or can it refuse/abandon him/release himself? Can an imp lie to its master, or the telepatic link makes it impossible?
- Are there cases of more intelligent/wise imps than the average, and are they bound to be evil or can they be neutral (ie, following the Hell's rules, as they are Lawful, but not feeling the urge/satisfaction of making other living beings suffer needlessly). The only Neutral imp I know of is Cespenar, Bhaal's Butler from BG2 ToB. Not sure of much "canon" he was though, as not only he's Neutral, he's True Neutral. I would expect a LN possible, in rare cases.
- Can an imp have a "class", that is can it learn to fight, lockpick, or more importantly manipulate magic or even gain spells through following a Deity? Are there any cases cited in canon of this that you are aware of?
Also, as an (apparently) unrelated bonus question for those of you so kind to read down to here: would Bhaal look unfavourably/be angry toward death inflicted not for joy or bloodlust, but for mercy (ie, to end one's suffering) or for revenge (ie, in retaliation from another murder)?
I would argue he would not be euphoric about it, but still appreciate another death caused by explicit murder - even to the point of granting divine power to a priest firmly devoted to mercykilling. Although I think he would not appreciated if your motivations were purely, completely altruistic (ie, on the Good side of the moral compass).
Anyway, I hope some of you may share bits of knowledge or point me in the right direction. Thanks!
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Edited by - koteko on 23 Jan 2015 01:46:46
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 02:32:54
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Welcome out into the open! 
Others probably have better answers, but here's my two coppers.
- I don't have specific sources, but it's my impression that familiars are generally portrayed in novels and adventures as docile and subservient... though not under magical compulsion to follow the letter of the orders they're given. In spite of the telepathic link, they're limited by their own intelligence scores, so it's possible for them to misunderstand their orders. Some are also capable of sarcasm and backtalk... the imp (Druzil, I think?) in R.A. Salvatore's Cleric Quintet would probably be a good reference.
- Not sure if anyone has written about an especially superior imp. If there is one, I'm sure someone here will know about it. It seems to me like a LN imp would be a rare exception, and a true Neutral imp would have been banished from his home plane... no idea why it wouldn't have just been destroyed by a stronger devil. Just my interpretation of canon; I haven't played the BG games.
- Imps should have the same ability to advance in classes that other devils do... which means it might be possible, but it's probably rare. However, there's nothing stopping a devil from learning to pick locks, especially in the rulesets where lockpicking is a skill rather than a class feature. An imp with fighter class levels could be comical/fun/interesting, depending on the author... I wouldn't say it's impossible, just unlikely to be a popular choice. Manipulating magical items, including using scrolls (to segue toward spell use): definitely, yes. Gaining spellcasting ability: sure, if you allow imps to have class levels then it follows that they could gain additional spellcasting ability from an archdevil. Gaining spellcasting ability from a deity: that would seem really weird to me, but I'd accept it if it were a "deity" like Ghaunadaur or the Elder Elemental God or something that 4e D&D would refer to as a primordial and thus not necessarily a god. I just have a line in my head between fiends and gods... they're made of different stuff, to me. Exceptions might exist (Asmodeus) but I don't like the way they've been handled prior to Erin Evans' novels (which I unfortunately have not yet read). Her novels might also provide you with some answers. And if you still have questions after reading her novels, she seems really cool, and it might be illuminating to ask her for her opinion/understanding of the devil/god issue in her Q&A thread, with the understanding that she's an author and not speaking as a representative of WotC or making any declarations of How Things Work.
- Bhaal! Always nice to see him in a discussion. Leira is more my style, but it pays to avoid getting on his bad side. I tend to think he would be disgusted by mercykilling, because of the lurking light/holy/benevolent intent of that act. He is the lord of the act of killing and "It is said that every murder done strengthens Bhaal." (1e FR setting). However, he's depicted as a bloody and mutilated corpse, not as a peacefully resting, recently-deceased person who was killed only because he was in horrible agony. The description of a bloody mutilated corpse is consistent with the Avatar trilogy of novels & adventures. In that story, he didn't kill the infirm and weak... he killed everyone who was in his path, which coincidentally meant healthy armed men. And it wasn't a flick of his wrist and someone gently expires. It was throwing men off of stairs to splut on stone courtyards below, snapping necks, et cetera. Bhaal is about violent death, not going gentle into that good night. I don't think he objects to mercykilling, or retaliatory murder... I just don't see it gaining his approval or even notice. He's all about the festering anger, violence and particularly overkill, escalation, bloody kills, and things in that vein. Pain probably isn't important to him... torture is Loviatar's thing, though she's undoubtedly disappointed by death because it ends her fun. Bhaal would be satisfied by things that make a person's body literally explode. Suffering doesn't do it for him... it's the violence and gore that appeals to him.
All just my take on stuff. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 23 Jan 2015 02:38:32 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 08:58:35
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I think xaeyruudh has the right of it. The only thing I would add is that the majority of imps, like almost all devils, are only in it for the promotion. An imp is one of the lucky brands of devil who get frequently summoned to the material plane, most of the time to become some evil wizard's familiar. There they get to subtly manipulate their master as well as other mortals they're introduced to while in their service. In return, they act as a vastly more useful familiar, able to think for themselves, perform more complicated tasks, and provide access to a fiendish information source (Druzil had an excellent network of contacts).
Some imps avoid immediate promotion so that they can continue to have the opportinity to be summoned by wizards in this way and achieve greater rewards later. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 10:59:47
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| Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that imps were demons, not devils. Chaotic little vermin from the lower planes. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 12:07:39
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| Definitely devils. The demon equivalent woulld be the quasit. |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 14:02:23
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Yep, devils. And I always thought that getting an imp familiar would be a constant testing trial of temptation and subversion. Can't get that spell research right? My pal Nergal can help you out. That magic item recipe doesn't seem to be working out? I know that Armaros likely knows the answer. And so on. A tough gig. Give me a tressym any day.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 15:49:27
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| Druzil,of RAS fame was said to be an imp, but was definitely from the Abyss and the lackey of the balor Errtu. I suppose this could just be the author taking liberty or misnaming the wretched creature. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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koteko
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 04:25:15
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That's a load of useful information. Thanks xaeyruudh, you gave me quite a lot to read up from.
I'm especially interested about your comment regarding fiends/gods being fundamentally different/separated. How does this accomodate with Asmodeus being a god now (ie, mortals venerate him, but devils just see it as their ruler)? I cannot seem to find any reference of Devil Priests, so I cannot quite figure out if this thing is impossible or just very unlikely/shunned upon. I'll have a look at Evan's books.
Also, I agree with you regarding Bhaal. Yeah, he has no reason to object, but would probably ignore you or laugh at you, certainly not thank you for the entertainment. Thanks for spelling it out for me :) |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 05:16:12
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quote:
Originally posted by koteko
I cannot seem to find any reference of Devil Priests, so I cannot quite figure out if this thing is impossible or just very unlikely/shunned upon. I'll have a look at Evan's books.
There is plenty of precedent for devil clerics. There's an entire chapter in 2e's 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' on how various fiend races approach gods, act as clerics (or not for the 'loths). However I can't say off the top of my head if 4e and post-4e material remain at all coherent with the rather extensive lore on this topic from 2e and 3e. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 16:37:18
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quote:
Originally posted by koteko
Are there cases of more intelligent/wise imps than the average, and are they bound to be evil or can they be neutral (ie, following the Hell's rules, as they are Lawful, but not feeling the urge/satisfaction of making other living beings suffer needlessly). The only Neutral imp I know of is Cespenar, Bhaal's Butler from BG2 ToB. Not sure of much "canon" he was though, as not only he's Neutral, he's True Neutral. I would expect a LN possible, in rare cases.
Unlikely, but it happens. However, "within one step of the master" is a reasonable ruling on alignments.
Also, it may be within half step - i.e. rather than LE (as in Baator) you can have even a true Baatezu LE/N (as in Acheron).
In case of an imp - for example, this could be attitude much like that of a stereotypical "evil drill sergeant", with wizard of course being its "officer" - so the imp would obey orders without question and for most part enthusiastically, but see everyone it considers of lower status (such as most mortals significantly below the master in power) as rabble to be bullied, etc. 
Or may gladly "play its part in grander action" as a scout, etc.
quote:
Can an imp have a "class", that is can it learn to fight, lockpick, or more importantly manipulate magic or even gain spells through following a Deity? Are there any cases cited in canon of this that you are aware of?
Classes depend on the edition, but a familiar probably cannot serve anyone but the master proper, and a creature already serving some power won't become a familiar to another master, so no clerics.
Of course, there are variants: servants "leased" by the master's own boss, pseudo-familiars (who pretend to be normal familiars, but consider "master" a puppet to be used as a false front, manipulated and corrupted) from Ravenloft, and so on, but they ultimately serve someone else and are not true familiars.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 17:14:45
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| Let's face it, there's very little to differentiate imps from quasits. The main difference is alignment and the fact that imps use suggestion and quasits have cause fear (at least in 3.5). This is one of those areas that I actually don't see a need for their being separate entities.... and in fact, I wouldn't mind seeing their origins not necessarily being demon or devil but rather their own "race" that has divided itself along alignment lines. Truthfully, I wouldn't mind it if these being's origins had something to do with hags using larvae, but they've taken on a life of their own (i.e. maybe they uncovered the hag's ritual and started turning larvae into imps/quasits themselves). Maybe they've become loyal to demons/devils as protection from the witches? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 17:36:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Let's face it, there's very little to differentiate imps from quasits.
Other than a totally different appearance, different alignment, and different behavior? |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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koteko
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 18:43:29
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@Shemmy: thanks! I didn't think of looking into Planescape too. Not sure though if it's completely compatible with FG - however for this particular information it should be alright and surely an instructive read.
@TBeholder: I'm not sure I get your reply completely.
For how I see it, either the "find familiar" spell is "binding/contractual" or it isn't.
If it is, then a cleric-familiar must be more careful about accepting, as its summoner might compel the familiar into doing something its deity doesn't allow (thus making it lose its powers, or worse). However I cannot see how a "pseudofamiliar" may be possible in this case: maybe through a loose contract, made in a clever way by the familiar so that it leaves betrayal possible? Then it would be simple for a cleric-familiar to add a clause clarifying the tasks it cannot complete because against its deity, and make the master either accept or find another familiar.
If it isn't, then there should be no problem for a cleric-familiar. It would just refuse commands going against its religion, or it could act against the master should the deity will it.
So I cannot see a problem in this sense against cleric-imps answering a "find familiar" spell. |
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koteko
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 19:17:59
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@sleyvas: An interesting piece of lore from 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends': Imps and Quasits all come from larvae. When shaped and twisted by a Baatezu, they become Imps. When shaped and twisted by a Tan'ari, they become Quasits. They have limited free will and are gifted to wizards of the correct alignments, instead of freely chosing so.
This is very cool, so I think I will stick to it as a general rule. I'm personally interested in the 2e, maybe later in 3e, but I doubt I'll ever go to 4e. So even if they changed a lot the lore, the above-mentioned will suffice for me. Thanks Shemmy! |
Edited by - koteko on 24 Jan 2015 19:18:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 00:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Let's face it, there's very little to differentiate imps from quasits.
Other than a totally different appearance, different alignment, and different behavior?
Quasit
a tiny humanoid-shaped creature with spiky horns and bat wings hovers nearby. Its hand and feet are long and slender, with long, claw-tipped digits. Warts or pustules cover its greenish skin.
IMP
a tiny humanoid with leathery batwings, a barbed tail and sharp, twisted horns flutters at about eye level, winking into sight from out of thin air.
So, both are small, horned humanoids with wings. One has claws and the other a barbed tail. Mechanically, this makes very little difference, and since they're such a minor threat... why differentiate them so much.
As to how they behave... both try to tempt their masters. One is just more inclined to be deceitful.
BTW, not trying to start a fight here, and I know some people are adamant about things not changing from the planescape setup. I just personally don't see where people have used these small demons much differently from one another in games. Now, the bigger demons/devils, yeah... those get used differently. It is however your game, and I'm just putting forth an idea to see what others think of it (devil's advocate as it were). It won't affect my game much in either direction. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 00:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Let's face it, there's very little to differentiate imps from quasits. The main difference is alignment and the fact that imps use suggestion and quasits have cause fear (at least in 3.5). This is one of those areas that I actually don't see a need for their being separate entities.... and in fact, I wouldn't mind seeing their origins not necessarily being demon or devil but rather their own "race" that has divided itself along alignment lines.
There are those, too. Mephits.
...yes, Planescape is full of copycats. But then, so is the rest of *D&D.
quote:
Originally posted by koteko
@TBeholder: I'm not sure I get your reply completely.
For how I see it, either the "find familiar" spell is "binding/contractual" or it isn't.
If it is, then a cleric-familiar must be more careful about accepting, as its summoner might compel the familiar into doing something its deity doesn't allow (thus making it lose its powers, or worse). However I cannot see how a "pseudofamiliar" may be possible in this case
It's binding... when it's really that ritual, i.e. it works properly. If it's subverted, it won't work like it's supposed to - or at all, then an unrelated effect could be passed as the normal result of this ritual. On the Demiplane of Dread generally Dark Powers make many spells unreliable, so this happens too, just rarely enough to not be widely known and expected.
On the Prime, this normally doesn't happen, yup.
But hypothetically someone could sabotage the process. E.g. if a power (or an archmage) wanted to tie puppet-strings to a newbie wizard who will one day get close to something or someone important.
This would require black ops work, but there are obvious ways to interfere with a ritual without its caster's knowledge: let the wizard "find" a spellbook with this ritual fixed to begin with, buy altered components in a shop (or have them swapped in his closet later), or have a nice casting room with convenient place to draw diagrams (that already has another right under the floor).
As good old Volo put it, "wizards tend to be a mite suspicious of the world around - and not always without reason".  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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On the Impish nature
