| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 01:41:33
|
What I mean by my title is simply will we ever see lore and material (whether from Greenwood or game books), on places hardly covered or not covered before?
At this point, I am just so bored of reading about the same places and the same gods. The Heartlands, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Silverymoon, the Sword Coast, the North...over and over and over again.
Lathander, Helm, Torm, Tyr, Ilmater, Bane, Bhaal, Cyric, Lolth, and gods be damned, MYSTRA MYSTRA MYSTRA.
I am personally tired of it. Are we doomed to cycle through these lands and deities forever?
I want more info on the giant gods, the dragon gods, others in the Faerunian pantheon and other pantheons, the sea gods, and so on. I think I am going to tear my hair out if I see another Mystra or Shar plot again.
There's Sossal, and Chult, Lantan, and High Ice, and Murghom, and also updates to places we haven't received updates on in a very long time.
This frustration reached its peak for me when one of my players had cool ideas for his Rogue with Hoar as his patron and he sighs sadly and goes,"I really like this deity, I don't understand why Hoar doesn't get more spotlight. I wish I had a lot more lore on this deity and his church beyond Powers&Pantheons. So tired of hearing about the other same ol' gods."
Which then gave me the inspiration to rant here about it.
Does anyone else feel a bit frustrated at this as well?
|
|
|
Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 01:51:10
|
They should redo Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur etc. for 5th ED but actually get people from their real life equivalent cultures to help develop them.
Same with the Vistani/Gurs. An actual study in Romani culture in a fantasy setting could be super interesting.
I'd love to see more done with Lantan too. I know some people don't like the mix of tech and fantasy but I love it, especially if we're going with a Bioshock style thing. |
 |
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 02:10:49
|
| It'd be nice if WotC fired up the Cities of the Realms for a reborn Dragon Magazine and let Ed blast us around the Realms and even far away lands. I'd buy a mousetype source book detailing a new continent too. |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 02:45:15
|
I don't have a problem with Mystra, though I wish they would stop killing her, but that applies to all of the gods. I think the logical solution is to stop writing about the gods entirely, when there's no pressing reason to write specifically about the gods. But what do I know, I guess.
I am incredibly tired of hearing about Cormyr, the Dales, and Waterdeep, ad nauseum, when there is so much of the world that we haven't seen yet.
All signs point to: Yes, we are doomed to see these lands and deities over and over again. In thirty years, TSR and WotC have very rarely stepped outside the northwestern quadrant of Faerun. Especially considering their current reduction in staff, I predict that this will not change dramatically in the foreseeable future.
Given the circumstances (I'm just interpreting from the outside: it looks like the 4e changes in the Realms were a bellyflop, and WotC has been reduced to a skeleton crew and told to get results or get out) I'm happy putting my desire for the rest of the planet on hold until they get their 5e act together. Provided that the 5e rulebooks sell well, and assuming they actually send a FR campaign setting book to the printer and it sells well, I foresee the WotC job board being repopulated and the current dripdrip of FR products increasing to a healthier flow. When that happens, I will return to crusading for the rest of the planet to be explored... by all of our most excellent writers, not just Ed. That man has way too much on his plate as it is... not that he would want it any other way. 
But looking at Hoard of the Dragon Queen, I don't really want to see outsiders writing FR regional sourcebooks. Sure they can write generic adventures, but they make bad judgment calls with the lore. So I'm not anxious for more sourcebooks right now... because they only way that will happen is if they're assigned to outside companies. I'll write what I need for my own campaigns in the meantime.
I think the rogue serving Hoar is an interesting idea, and if he were playing at my table I would encourage him to jot down some notes on what he would like, and then incorporate as much as I can into my campaign. A shortage of published material means an opening to write your own!
I agree regarding Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, and Maztica (plus Spelljammer and Planescape) being ripe for resurrection, but I would approach it from the opposite angle: utterly divorce them from real-world cultures. They're easier to write that way, easier to import into our games, and (bonus!) don't offend folks by inevitably botching the attempt to translate Earth into FR.
I also agree with Eilserus regarding Dragon magazine... given the much-reduced cost of publishing, I would expect to see the magazines back online sooner rather than later. There can't be a shortage of interest, with everyone clamoring about the magazines being shut down and threatening to take their money elsewhere.
|
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 20 Jan 2015 02:49:10 |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 06:52:12
|
All IMHO:
Al Qadim was never meant to be a quasi-historical setting based on the Abassid Caliphate or something along those lines (yeah, I know there's a Grand Caliph, but it's not close to history, IMO).
It was very much inspired by Hollywood treatments of the Arabian Nights, Ray Harryhausen flicks, and borrowings from many other sources, including some historical and real world cultural material. It didn't include Islam or any other real world religions(good choice).
Mazitca was a bit closer to history and geography of the real world. Cordell, huh? I thought they misspelled Cortez.
:)
But it, too, was chock full of ahistorical stuff and gonzo D&D elements.
(Out of curiosity, does anyone think the whole Cordell/Cortez thing has something to do with some guys interpreting Amn as a kind of "fantasy version of Spain"?)
Kara Tur looks like the most earthlike and pseudo-historical to me, with nations having such hard to puzzle out names as "Koryo" and "Tabot." Hmmm, I wonder what those are supposed to stand in for? :)
But it's also got a lot of elements borrowed from kung fu movies, giant monster movies, and pop culture/romantic/anachronistic conceptions of ninjas and samurai.
What always did strike me as a bit odd was that most of Faerun looks less like a pastiche of Medieval Europe than Kara Tur looks like a pastiche of pre-modern East Asia. Some of that may just be perspective.
But, on the flipside, including a number of regions connected to RW history , legend, and even pop culture does mesh well with one of the central conceits of FR: the old gateways among the worlds.
I could go either way on that one.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 20 Jan 2015 07:00:22 |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 16:11:29
|
Your point about Al-Qadim is well-taken. I like it, and it doesn't feel copied out of our history books. Maybe I'm just hearing Arabian music in my head and envisioning minarets and sand everywhere, and reading the word Caliph too many times, and it ends up seeming overplayed.
I can understand the argument that reflecting Earth in the Realms supports the notion of portals connecting these (and other) worlds, but I think it comes off as a rationalization. I also think that (for example) we already have the Arabian“Nights, and can enjoy or build upon those stories whenever we choose... why do we need to make an Arabian culture on Toril? Isn't it better to create something new, to open avenues into a source of entirely new stories which we can't find elsewhere?
On one extreme, we have creativity in a vacuum... write something with as-little-as-possible influence from Earth. Difficult, maybe, but not impossible... if I wrote a "Far East" or "Middle East" setting, the only resemblance to Earth's cultures would be purely coincidental because I haven't studied them. I've never even watched Godzilla or King Kong movies. I have watched some kung fu movies, but I doubt Hollywood knows anything about the Far East either.
On the other extreme, we have things like FR10, in which names from Earth's history/mythology are applied not just to the gods but various NPCs too... NPCs who had little/nothing to do with their Earthly counterparts; the names were apparently just used for flavor.
The appeal of not basing FR things on Earth is that you have the freedom to develop your own themes without having to fit into something predetermined. I like the freedom, so seeing stuff from Earth's mythologies in a game setting pretty much always comes off as lazy... and, as mentioned, inviting offense. Of course, some are worse offenders than others.
From the perspective of expanding our minds and enlarging our experiences, a culture which is adapted from another culture doesn't add anything. That's not everyone's reason for playing D&D, but it remains that Al-Qadim, Maztica, Kara-Tur, and the Old Empires --the FR cultures most obviously based on Earth's cultures-- have been dropped, presumably because they didn't live up to sales demands. So evidently I'm not completely alone in my preference for something original over something derivative. (And somebody hated Mulhorand enough to put effort into gutting it and then destroying it.) |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 16:41:50
|
Guess I'm going to be the odd man out, here... I can't get enough of Waterdeep, myself.
I'd argue that the paucity of coverage we've had since 3E ended, coupled with the timejump and multiple big changes, means that we do need to once more revisit some of the more familiar corners of the Realms -- because they are no longer the familiar places they once were.
And some places -- Cormyr and the Dales being notable examples -- weren't even updated in 3E.
But other areas do need coverage. There are a lot of corners of the Realms that haven't seen much, if anything, in print, and that needs to be corrected.
I think WotC needs to do what Paizo is doing now, and what TSR did before -- forget pricey hardcovers or boxed sets, go with 64 or 96 page books. Maybe go 128 for places that need a lot of page count, or for large areas...
I'd rather have more books that are smaller, rather than fewer books that are large. We got a lot more coverage of the Realms in softbound supplements in 1E and 2E than we did in 3E's hardcovers.
Smaller books may not offer the in-depth coverage of the larger books, but I should think we could get more of them, published more frequently, than the big hardcovers -- and thus get a broader coverage of the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 18:19:01
|
| Exactly. Golarion is chock full of diverse places, and while they have their one huge hardcover for the world, they do the smaller books to further detail the various regions. I wish WotC would do that with the Realms, and I can understand that would be a rather huge undertaking for them, they should license that to someone else then. Say a team Ed himself puts together, you can even cull authors right here in Candlekeep. |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 18:43:05
|
That's what having a larger stable of writers should have been for. Let the big boys and girls write stories based in the glamour sections of the Realms. Let the lesser known writers develop the lesser known parts of the world.
But to answer the original question, no WoTC is in the middle of a big rebranding of D&D and the Realms right now and that means MARKETING! MARKETING! MARKETING! And marketing hates diversity. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 18:52:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But to answer the original question, no WoTC is in the middle of a big rebranding of D&D and the Realms right now and that means MARKETING! MARKETING! MARKETING! And marketing hates diversity.
But they have to have something to market... And the more regions that are covered, the more they can sell. Marketing loves having more to sell.
I honestly think we would have gotten more Realmslore during the 3E era if they had gone with smaller softcovers. Instead -- and this is my opinion -- they went for the hardcovers because hardcovers would have a larger per unit profit. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jan 2015 19:00:32 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 19:28:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Your point about Al-Qadim is well-taken. I like it, and it doesn't feel copied out of our history books. Maybe I'm just hearing Arabian music in my head and envisioning minarets and sand everywhere, and reading the word Caliph too many times, and it ends up seeming overplayed.
I can understand the argument that reflecting Earth in the Realms supports the notion of portals connecting these (and other) worlds, but I think it comes off as a rationalization. I also think that (for example) we already have the Arabian“Nights, and can enjoy or build upon those stories whenever we choose... why do we need to make an Arabian culture on Toril? Isn't it better to create something new, to open avenues into a source of entirely new stories which we can't find elsewhere?
On one extreme, we have creativity in a vacuum... write something with as-little-as-possible influence from Earth. Difficult, maybe, but not impossible... if I wrote a "Far East" or "Middle East" setting, the only resemblance to Earth's cultures would be purely coincidental because I haven't studied them. I've never even watched Godzilla or King Kong movies. I have watched some kung fu movies, but I doubt Hollywood knows anything about the Far East either.
On the other extreme, we have things like FR10, in which names from Earth's history/mythology are applied not just to the gods but various NPCs too... NPCs who had little/nothing to do with their Earthly counterparts; the names were apparently just used for flavor.
The appeal of not basing FR things on Earth is that you have the freedom to develop your own themes without having to fit into something predetermined. I like the freedom, so seeing stuff from Earth's mythologies in a game setting pretty much always comes off as lazy... and, as mentioned, inviting offense. Of course, some are worse offenders than others.
From the perspective of expanding our minds and enlarging our experiences, a culture which is adapted from another culture doesn't add anything. That's not everyone's reason for playing D&D, but it remains that Al-Qadim, Maztica, Kara-Tur, and the Old Empires --the FR cultures most obviously based on Earth's cultures-- have been dropped, presumably because they didn't live up to sales demands. So evidently I'm not completely alone in my preference for something original over something derivative. (And somebody hated Mulhorand enough to put effort into gutting it and then destroying it.)
Indeed.
I've always liked Al Qadim, I think it was never thought it formed an integral part of the FR setting. That is, it was marked on global maps, but it constituted its own setting with only minimal links to Faerun.
TSR seemed to think so, too, as the company made AQ a separate product line.
If you want someplace that feels fantastic, integrated with Faerun, and not too close to Earth, but that still reflects some stylistic elements and themes drawn from the Near East...What about Calimshan?
It's been there all along.
EDIT : There's a pretty good short article on the Lake of Steam by Greenwood, isn't there? Do you think that could make for a sourcebook?
It seems to me that Faerun contains a pretty wide diversity of cultures. A few that interest me:
The Eraka, people of The Ride (I have a vague memory of a memorial/border stone the nomads set up after whomping the Zhents- something like "we wait.")
Ice Hunters of the North, mentioned in The Savage Frontier (who seem inspired by some RW arctic and subarctic North American peoples, but we have so little canon on them that they could be developed from that basis in original directions, without invalidating even a line of existing material-- or am I wrong about that?)
Chult (obviously some pulp "Darkest Africa" vibe here, but I feel like the vein hasn't been mined dry, and the dinosaurs stuff adds a strong fantastic twist)
The various tribes and cities in the Shaar (didn't it get shrunk a lot with one of the edition changes?)
Thay (I prefer it with living human beings, and plenty of them. YMMV.)
Chondath (city-states, gothic cathedrals, supple leather armor, plague weapons left over from the old days of civil war, mistrust of mages- sounds fun to me)
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 20 Jan 2015 19:59:07 |
|
|
|
Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 21:32:37
|
Looks like my post get eaten; but basically I don't agree with Al-Qadim, Maztica et. all
I think it's always going to be clear they have real world cultural influences from other cultures or else there's no point. By default, people tend to imagine very Eurocentric fantasy/fairy tale lands and for the most part Faerūn is that, and you need something to balance it out. It's only really in an alien sci-fi setting(which can also use as a basis for a fantasy story) you can begin to pull
Kara Tur should not be east Asia, Matzica should not be latin america, Al-Qadim and Calimshan should not be the middle east/north africa in the same way that should Faerūn should not be egypt. What we should be seen is fantasy worlds that could be the imagined product of other cultures, just like our fantasies, fairytales and epics are reflections of ours. So it's not overly incorrect to consider middle eastern and indian settings to be 1001 Nights-ish, because that's an actual compilation of their folk tales(albeit filtered through a western lens somewhat). While it's easy to risk offence(not that Wizards were even trying with the 4E Vistani stuff) you're much more likely to offend by stripping those cultural influences out of the realms, only having vague hints of the original. Sometimes this can come across as more orientalist because you're just picking and choosing the exotic or fancy bits that work for fantasy while insisting it's a western created product. A lot of sci-fi has this problem, and it's an easy trap to fall into. That's why the most sensible thing in a fantasy setting is to just ACKNOWLEDGE the real world influence.
In a more "alien" fantasy setting; you can get away with deviating from it more. Morrowind in the Elder Scrolls is a good example of this - though it's still clearly largely Eurobased. It's a difficult thing to pull off since you have to mix a lot of cultural influences to get something original without disrespecting the originals.
In my sidefics, I always write the Gurs as the Romani, with some subtle twists but at the end of the day they're so similar to(and likely originally WERE, displaced much like other human ethnicities) Romani in concept there's no other way to respectfully flesh them out but to look at Romani influences. I'm less specific with middle eastern influenced stuff. |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 22:53:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
What we should be seen is fantasy worlds that could be the imagined product of other cultures, just like our fantasies, fairytales and epics are reflections of ours.
While it's clear that we're probably not going to agree on everything, I can somewhat support this idea. It might be a good way of idealizing it, anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
So it's not overly incorrect to consider middle eastern and indian settings to be 1001 Nights-ish, because that's an actual compilation of their folk tales(albeit filtered through a western lens somewhat).
...But this doesn't necessarily follow from the earlier statement. The 1001 Arabian Nights is just one (or just a small number) out of many possible cultures and interpretations. Tying a fantasy setting to Arabia in particular is limiting it. That limitation is unnecessary and counterproductive.
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
you're much more likely to offend by stripping those cultural influences out of the realms, only having vague hints of the original.
I disagree here. If I create a "desert nomad culture" without any references to Earth's cultures, then I have avoided offending anyone. Or if someone is offended, it's without any basis in rational thought. When I base the culture on the Bedouin in particular, or anyone in particular, then offending someone is pretty much unavoidable. And again that's both unnecessary and unhelpful. Simply create a new desert culture, without references to Earth. Simple and useful.
All just my opinion, obviously. |
|
|
|
Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 23:52:52
|
quote:
I disagree here. If I create a "desert nomad culture" without any references to Earth's cultures, then I have avoided offending anyone.
It's impossible to do this because we can only use points of reference from our own real world cultures. Again, some high concept fantasy and sci-fi tend to pull this off, but you still need to take influence from real world cultures to figure out how it would be work. Also - given the fact that we have a lot of flat out European influences, we need something to balance it. Having places that are hard to pin down is great. I like Rashemen partly for that reason - even though it's clearly influenced by slavic culture it doesn't map directly onto any one country.
quote:
Or if someone is offended, it's without any basis in rational thought.
I don't think it's our place to say that though, because a lot of people will put in things resembling other cultures, often not intentionally. But we have a limited capacity to create new things and we have to work by recombining and warping the world around us.
|
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 00:17:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
All signs point to: Yes, we are doomed to see these lands and deities over and over again. In thirty years, TSR and WotC have very rarely stepped outside the northwestern quadrant of Faerun. Especially considering their current reduction in staff, I predict that this will not change dramatically in the foreseeable future.
Given the circumstances (I'm just interpreting from the outside: it looks like the 4e changes in the Realms were a bellyflop, and WotC has been reduced to a skeleton crew and told to get results or get out) I'm happy putting my desire for the rest of the planet on hold until they get their 5e act together. Provided that the 5e rulebooks sell well, and assuming they actually send a FR campaign setting book to the printer and it sells well, I foresee the WotC job board being repopulated and the current dripdrip of FR products increasing to a healthier flow. When that happens, I will return to crusading for the rest of the planet to be explored... by all of our most excellent writers, not just Ed. That man has way too much on his plate as it is... not that he would want it any other way.
Yeah, diversity? Sadly, at this point we have to consider ourselves lucky if we ever get to see anything resembling a 5e FRCS, let alone plots involving different lands/cultures/deities... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Jan 2015 00:19:13 |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 00:29:21
|
| My money is Ed has been and is already working on a 5E FRCS. Just a guess of course. |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 00:32:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But to answer the original question, no WoTC is in the middle of a big rebranding of D&D and the Realms right now and that means MARKETING! MARKETING! MARKETING! And marketing hates diversity.
But they have to have something to market... And the more regions that are covered, the more they can sell. Marketing loves having more to sell.
I honestly think we would have gotten more Realmslore during the 3E era if they had gone with smaller softcovers. Instead -- and this is my opinion -- they went for the hardcovers because hardcovers would have a larger per unit profit.
Marketing loves a product that is easy to sell period. When it comes to FR that means Drizzt, Elminster, Cormyr, Neverwinter, Waterdeep, Sword Coast, and Baldur's Gate. Their plan seems to be to come up with a seasonal story line and focus on that. That means all adventures will take place within that story arc. The Tiamat theme this past season showed that they can go to different parts of the map, so maybe there is some hope in that fashion. But all adventures for that time period will revolve around a main story. So basically no more isolated adventures. Everything will be in a nicely packaged, easy to market, RSE like entity.
As for the novels, they don't seem too willing to go off the ranch there either. Stick to establish writers and their characters. This allows WoTC to maintain focus on the seasonal theme. Again, no isolated stories nor a broad array of writers. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 00:36:57
|
| I don't think we can predict the future of the 5E FR product line on the couple of modules that have been released thus far. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 00:51:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think we can predict the future of the 5E FR product line on the couple of modules that have been released thus far.
True, true, true. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 00:58:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think we can predict the future of the 5E FR product line on the couple of modules that have been released thus far.
Well, they have explictly said that they're going to focus on those modules for the time being, so we can predict the near future of FR products on them.
EDIT: Also, from this : http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?409052-Is-Chris-Perkins-Working-On-A-New-D-amp-D-Setting
it looks like FR is not the only setting that will be used for those modules and -given the small size of WotC's current team- this further decreases our chances to see the FR updated, let alone explored :( |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Jan 2015 01:10:22 |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 01:24:58
|
Wait, people are offended by Kara Tur, Maztica, etc?
Not just "meh, not my thing" but offended?
If that offense translates into an online campaign, or even a lot of flame wars and trenchant reviews in social media...
Well, I don't like the idea of political correctness invading the RPG sphere.
Given all the "gamergate" stuff, maybe WotC will avoid any political controversy in 5E FR.
TSR felt compelled to make some changes in response to the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, and I can imagine management as WotC or higher up the Hasbro chain making a similar sort of call.
Or is this reaction not about ideology?
I don't care for the "female armor" and cheesecake depicted in some gaming stuff, but that's aesthetic and not political for me. I can't really say any of it offends me. It's a matter of personal taste.
Anyone who is actually offended by any of these settings, please let me know. If you like, send a PM.
I'm genuinely curious as to what would be offensive about any of these settings.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 21 Jan 2015 01:31:18 |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 01:29:27
|
You wouldn't think it's Greyhawk, since the GH type adventure is coming to the Realms. And if it is Greyhawk they are working on, why didn't they just create a Realms specific adventure for the Realms and stick the GH stuff in that world?
And apparently the Realms isn't the default setting anymore? Now I'm confused. |
|
|
|
Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 01:41:57
|
quote:
Well, I don't like the idea of political correctness invading the RPG sphere.
Respecting other people's cultures shouldn't be seen as "political correctness". It's not comparable to the Satan Panic. It's punching up vs. punching down - back during that type, Christian Conservatives had the rule of the roost and oppressed those out of the mainstream, including the likes of table top gamers. "Social justice warriors" don't really oppress anyone by the same measure; they lack institutional power.
In particular when it comes to Calimshan and Al-Qadim which are very d irectly influenced by real world Muslim cultures, you have to be careful not to reinforce the swathes of Islamophobia in the media.
The same when it comes to those based on the Romani people - possibly the most heavily marginalised and oppressed ethnic group in Europe. When they're exoticised as fairy like entities, it distracts from the fact taht many of them live in severe poverty and have real issues that need addressing, and when they're cast as thieves and vagabonds it reinforces the negative stereotype that leads to antiziganist laws, segregation, etc.
When you live in a bubble of privilege it might be easy to not see how the media we consume influences attitudes towards those that are different and "exotic". But stuff like D&D doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it's propagated a lot of fantasy concepts we've seen used in a myriad of other instances of various forms of media.
While I do rely on pastiches and some simplified portrayals to a degree whenever I write my fics I try to do some real world research.
For example this story -
https://app.box.com/s/zdjaagrdd31ksivhhjww
while it has an unreliable narrator, many of the traditions mentioned are derived from real world Romani culture, with subtle changes, just as they change from Vitsa to Vitsa, and how traditions differ between medieval/renaissance europe and Faerūn. Romani get almost no positive reputation - they're casting white actors for the Romani Jewish twins in Age of Ultron, for example, due to the mistaken example that Roma, even half Roma, are white-passing(some are, some aren't, I've seen half-Roma that look very indian).
I could rant for ages on the female armour thing. I play a character who is a literal whore but if it was someone else playing this character, it would be offensive. Because I actually did some amount of real research on Courtesans and actually befriended sex workers and asked them their opinion, I created a far more rounded character. And I'm just a player who likes to write occasional Realms Fanfics influenced by our game. I have little in the way of resources - it would be very easy for Hasbro/Wizards to hire people from the middle east, japan, mexico to help develop these settings. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 21 Jan 2015 01:46:51 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 01:54:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
You wouldn't think it's Greyhawk, since the GH type adventure is coming to the Realms. And if it is Greyhawk they are working on, why didn't they just create a Realms specific adventure for the Realms and stick the GH stuff in that world?
And apparently the Realms isn't the default setting anymore? Now I'm confused.
I clearly remeber Mearls saying that FR would be the default setting for their stories in one of his interviews, just before summer IIRC. All the Sundering hype also points to it being just that. I don't know what changed, but they seem to lack a definite direction (other than ''less books is better'', or making apocalyptic-level threat adventures following the same model).
I don't know if they're working on GH, maybe a new setting or something, but it seems weird with their aiming to establish the D&D/FR brands and ''multi-platform'' products (their MMO is set in the Realms after all). I don't really care for other settings (except perhaps Planescape), but with their bare bones team, the situation looks grim for the FR. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Jan 2015 01:55:51 |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 01:57:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
You wouldn't think it's Greyhawk, since the GH type adventure is coming to the Realms. And if it is Greyhawk they are working on, why didn't they just create a Realms specific adventure for the Realms and stick the GH stuff in that world?
And apparently the Realms isn't the default setting anymore? Now I'm confused.
Realms wa sthe default setting at some point?
In 5E?
TSR planned to make it the default setting for all future AD&D modules back in 1897, but that obviously didn't happen.
Greyhawk makes the most sense for a default setting, if they must have one. It's the oldest TSR-made setting for AD&D, and it played in integral role in the development of the game system in a way the later settings like FR did not.
But I don't see the big deal. FR borrows a healthy dose of GH material, because it incorporates so much "D&D stuff" (the witch's brew of war gaming, medieval history, swords and sorcery, Tolkien, dinosaurs, kung fu flicks, sci fi, and so on that all feeds into the D&D sausage maker).
This is not a negative criticism. Greenwood was, and is , a DM. He had a setting for stories, converted it to a setting for games, and started pulling game stuff into it, building as he went. The world grew as he ran games in it. I like that organic quality, and that eclecticism.
Is FR different from GH? Sure. But as different as Dark Sun is from Dragonlance? Not at all.
It's quite easy to convert most modules from GH to FR and back. It's usually just a matter of swapping the names of some gods, picking an appropriate place on the map, and so on.
Many modules don't even need a world setting. Generic/no specific setting works for most of them.
Everything above is IMHO and YMMV.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 02:21:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
quote:
Well, I don't like the idea of political correctness invading the RPG sphere.
Respecting other people's cultures shouldn't be seen as "political correctness". It's not comparable to the Satan Panic. It's punching up vs. punching down - back during that type, Christian Conservatives had the rule of the roost and oppressed those out of the mainstream, including the likes of table top gamers. "Social justice warriors" don't really oppress anyone by the same measure; they lack institutional power.
In particular when it comes to Calimshan and Al-Qadim which are very d irectly influenced by real world Muslim cultures, you have to be careful not to reinforce the swathes of Islamophobia in the media.
The same when it comes to those based on the Romani people - possibly the most heavily marginalised and oppressed ethnic group in Europe. When they're exoticised as fairy like entities, it distracts from the fact taht many of them live in severe poverty and have real issues that need addressing, and when they're cast as thieves and vagabonds it reinforces the negative stereotype that leads to antiziganist laws, segregation, etc.
When you live in a bubble of privilege it might be easy to not see how the media we consume influences attitudes towards those that are different and "exotic". But stuff like D&D doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it's propagated a lot of fantasy concepts we've seen used in a myriad of other instances of various forms of media.
While I do rely on pastiches and some simplified portrayals to a degree whenever I write my fics I try to do some real world research.
For example this story -
https://app.box.com/s/zdjaagrdd31ksivhhjww
while it has an unreliable narrator, many of the traditions mentioned are derived from real world Romani culture, with subtle changes, just as they change from Vitsa to Vitsa, and how traditions differ between medieval/renaissance europe and Faerūn. Romani get almost no positive reputation - they're casting white actors for the Romani Jewish twins in Age of Ultron, for example, due to the mistaken example that Roma, even half Roma, are white-passing(some are, some aren't, I've seen half-Roma that look very indian).
I could rant for ages on the female armour thing. I play a character who is a literal whore but if it was someone else playing this character, it would be offensive. Because I actually did some amount of real research on Courtesans and actually befriended sex workers and asked them their opinion, I created a far more rounded character. And I'm just a player who likes to write occasional Realms Fanfics influenced by our game. I have little in the way of resources - it would be very easy for Hasbro/Wizards to hire people from the middle east, japan, mexico to help develop these settings.
I'm going to suggest we move this to PM, because I strongly disagree with much of what you've written. It's not in an angry or mean-spirited way, but in a way that might create a tangent that's not helpful to the thread if we get into the whole thing here.
But I will leave you with this:
One vocal, aggressive guy on another forum once called me a 'SJW.'
I had commented about not liking what seemed to me like a trend towards cheesecake/fanservice art in a certain game line, and about liking the idea of a more diverse range of female character illustrations. No mention of politics, no name-calling, no language harsher than "cheesecake".
People flipped the heck out.  SJW was one of the printable things I got called.
My first thought was "That means single Jewish woman, right? Haha, you silly goose, you got it wrong all three counts."
Then somebody else told me about Social Justice Warriors, and I sprayed coffee onto my keyboard. That's also quite far from the truth.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 21 Jan 2015 02:38:26 |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 02:29:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But to answer the original question, no WoTC is in the middle of a big rebranding of D&D and the Realms right now and that means MARKETING! MARKETING! MARKETING! And marketing hates diversity.
But they have to have something to market... And the more regions that are covered, the more they can sell. Marketing loves having more to sell.
I honestly think we would have gotten more Realmslore during the 3E era if they had gone with smaller softcovers. Instead -- and this is my opinion -- they went for the hardcovers because hardcovers would have a larger per unit profit.
Yup. Hence Sean Reynolds "Bean Counters" story, based on how the 3E book "Silver Marches" faired. Of which I am quite surprised, according to the bean counters, that it did not. I found that first regional book to be exactly what 3E Realms needed.
It had a particularly smaller sized font, not a small as the 3E FR Setting book, but small enough to cram a lot of goodies in it. I found it to have quite a nice balance of lore and gameplay material in it myself.
Then came the hardcover regional books, which I believe and it is quite clear visually, was less exceptional. They covered too many regions with larger font and crammed it with game material and they began to feel more like "starved cattle" than "fat happy cattle" kind of books. (Serpent Kingdoms broke this mold, that book went back to the feel of Silver Marches).
They weren't bad books, just failed to be as exceptional, or more than, Silver Marches and Serpent Kingdoms (and let's not talk about the biggest disappointment of them all, that Moonsea 3E book...wow). |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 02:43:09
|
| As for Roseweave's comment, I wholeheartedly agree. If you're going to create something based off of another culture, do proper research before writing it up. Or you'll end up throwing in a bunch of stereotypical garbage that only further reinforces the stereotypes. |
|
|
|
Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 02:56:43
|
| Ugh forum ate my post again. I wish it would save fields. |
|
|
|
Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 03:03:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
quote:
Well, I don't like the idea of political correctness invading the RPG sphere.
Respecting other people's cultures shouldn't be seen as "political correctness". It's not comparable to the Satan Panic. It's punching up vs. punching down - back during that type, Christian Conservatives had the rule of the roost and oppressed those out of the mainstream, including the likes of table top gamers. "Social justice warriors" don't really oppress anyone by the same measure; they lack institutional power.
In particular when it comes to Calimshan and Al-Qadim which are very d irectly influenced by real world Muslim cultures, you have to be careful not to reinforce the swathes of Islamophobia in the media.
The same when it comes to those based on the Romani people - possibly the most heavily marginalised and oppressed ethnic group in Europe. When they're exoticised as fairy like entities, it distracts from the fact taht many of them live in severe poverty and have real issues that need addressing, and when they're cast as thieves and vagabonds it reinforces the negative stereotype that leads to antiziganist laws, segregation, etc.
When you live in a bubble of privilege it might be easy to not see how the media we consume influences attitudes towards those that are different and "exotic". But stuff like D&D doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it's propagated a lot of fantasy concepts we've seen used in a myriad of other instances of various forms of media.
While I do rely on pastiches and some simplified portrayals to a degree whenever I write my fics I try to do some real world research.
For example this story -
https://app.box.com/s/zdjaagrdd31ksivhhjww
while it has an unreliable narrator, many of the traditions mentioned are derived from real world Romani culture, with subtle changes, just as they change from Vitsa to Vitsa, and how traditions differ between medieval/renaissance europe and Faerūn. Romani get almost no positive reputation - they're casting white actors for the Romani Jewish twins in Age of Ultron, for example, due to the mistaken example that Roma, even half Roma, are white-passing(some are, some aren't, I've seen half-Roma that look very indian).
I could rant for ages on the female armour thing. I play a character who is a literal whore but if it was someone else playing this character, it would be offensive. Because I actually did some amount of real research on Courtesans and actually befriended sex workers and asked them their opinion, I created a far more rounded character. And I'm just a player who likes to write occasional Realms Fanfics influenced by our game. I have little in the way of resources - it would be very easy for Hasbro/Wizards to hire people from the middle east, japan, mexico to help develop these settings.
I'm going to suggest we move this to PM, because I strongly disagree with much of what you've written. It's not in an angry or mean-spirited way, but in a way that might create a tangent that's not helpful to the thread if we get into the whole thing here.
But I will leave you with this:
One vocal, aggressive guy on another forum once called me a 'SJW.'
I had commented about not liking what seemed to me like a trend towards cheesecake/fanservice art in a certain game line, and about liking the idea of a more diverse range of female character illustrations. No mention of politics, no name-calling, no language harsher than "cheesecake".
People flipped the heck out. SJW was one of the printable things I got called.
My first thought was "That means single Jewish woman, right? Haha, you silly goose, you got it wrong all three counts."
Then somebody else told me about Social Justice Warriors, and I sprayed coffee onto my keyboard. That's also quite far from the truth.
When we're discussing issues of diversity of setting in the realms, of course the more "diverse" areas of the realms and the issue of depiction is going to come up. Sooner or later we'll hit a roadblock if we can't talk about it.
The issue here is that you're talking about opinions, I'm talking about respect. If you strongly disagree with what I'm saying - you do not respect people form other cultures. At all.
I strongly suspect, again, you are not the sort of person who is remotely affected by issues by representation and are fact quite overrepresented. It's not really your place to comment on how marginalised groups should feel about how they're depicted in the first place. There is a strong degree of entitlement that seems to come with certain privileged groups in society that makes them believe that because they have a right to an opinion they should have it butt in everywhere.
For you it's an opinion, for some people, it's their entire life. When you have people unaffected by issues dictating them for others, that's when it becomes oppression. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Will we ever see real diversity in the Realms?
