Author |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 17:55:45
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I'd love to know who thought this would be a good idea. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!” #8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 17:57:29
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I wouldn't call it a blending of the settings, especially since Greyhawk isn't even mentioned... It looks more like "Hey, this was cool over there, let's do the same thing over here!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 18:00:11
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I don't know, because I'm not with WotC, but I don't think they're trying to blend the worlds together... not exactly anyway. It comes off looking that way sometimes though, because they frequently take popular elements of other settings and adapt them to the Realms.
"Elemental Evil" makes us think of the Temple of Elemental Evil, which was set in Greyhawk. But I think Olhydra, Cryonax, etc, were around before that.
Also, I think "Elder Elemental Eye" was one of Ghaunadaur's aliases since at least 2nd edition. I can't find my copy of the 2e Drow of the Underdark to check his writeup in there, but if memory serves...
So the Emerald Enclave is Realms-specific, and Ghaunadaur might be multi-world, and the "Princes of Elemental Evil" or whatever they're called are definitely multi-world. Unless the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure is supposed to be for Greyhawk, I'm not seeing anything to really worry about yet.
I'll keep my fingers crossed too. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 18:39:27
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One would think it HAS to be about Ghaunadaur. And if that is the case, you'd think we'd see either the Promenade or that giant slime pit that Clan Huune used to use back in the day. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 18:52:04
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Ghaunadaur was 'The Elder Eye', not the 'Elder Elemental Eye'. Lords of Madness tried to draw a link between Ghaunadaur and Tharizdun because of their similarities and then he was used as an FR alternative to Tharizdun when Tharizdun seemed to get included in every single issue of Dungeon Magazine.
Ghaunadaur's aspect of Juiblex also shared an abyssal layer with Zuggtmoy who played a large part in the Temple of Elemental Evil module. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 19:26:54
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Ah, okay. Well, I can see the allure of confirming similarities by linking gods/whatever, but it's the opposite of Ed's intent with the Realms and therefore the wrong approach for designers to take. But they sure love it. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 20:04:44
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Well, from an in-universe perspective it makes sense.
They already tried their ToEE thingy twice on Oerth. Now they either need a new shtick or move their old to a world that has not yet heard of it.
Guess they wen't for the lazy route instead of having to come up with a new scheme. Even ancient evils can be uncreative |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 23:28:02
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I don't think they're blending the settings but I agree with Mirtek, they're taking a somewhat lazy approach and rehashing old material. And I wonder if adventure arc=adventure path (as in a complete campaign taking PCs from novice to near epic levels as opposed the the 'old school' way of a three-module arc). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 02 Jan 2015 23:30:07 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 02:35:57
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wouldn't call it a blending of the settings, especially since Greyhawk isn't even mentioned... It looks more like "Hey, this was cool over there, let's do the same thing over here!"
Exactly.
And let's face it, TSR/WotC have been doing that since the earliest days of the concept of core D&D. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 03:31:31
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One example: I recently started poking at the 1e Against the Giants series, updating it for 5e and de-Greyhawking it (I'm literally never in GH) and looking for logical places to put it in the Realms.
Lo and behold, there's already a 4e FR translation of it.
Anything they can take from less-popular settings and plunk down in the Realms, they'll take and plunk.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 04:01:37
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wouldn't call it a blending of the settings, especially since Greyhawk isn't even mentioned... It looks more like "Hey, this was cool over there, let's do the same thing over here!"
Exactly. "Design solutions" on the level of a stereotypical (i.e. laughably bad) fanfic. Which quite obviously happens because they are done by the crew different from stereotypical fanfic authors only in having extra few years worth of pizza under their belts. And if there were any illusions before, now we see part of reasoning from the previous time: "Drizzt must be MOST SPESHUL EVAR!". Which is double-take worthy in itself: I accidentally navigated into fanfiction.net, or what? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 04:20:53
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A unified setting, or a few loosely-diverse settings intercompatible with modular content (adventures, exotic regions, lost elven magics, etc) is a smart move. It allows WotC to focus on game content over setting fluff, it allows authors to focus on setting fluff over game content, it allows players/DMs to plug-n-play or discard selective aspects. All without self-competing setting/edition brands.
Remember that WotC is a smallish company with smallish budgets and demanding corporate overlords. A strong multi-setting approaches let them churn out more stuff and even sneak in some lures to move people towards D&D worlds they would normally never look at.
Been done since earliest AD&D days anyhow. The Underdark was originally intended for Greyhawk, it fits very well in the Realms, it fits even better in Greyhawk after being heavily expanded with Realms content. Same with Vaasa. And Ravenloft (kinda). And even the Savage Coast of Mystara.
Hopefully this will encourage a revamp of Spelljammer, Planescape, or some other multi-setting sort of setting. And a unified set of traditionally problematic rules (psionics, special race/class options, artifacts) which apply consistently in every setting. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 04:45:50
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Welcome to the 5E Realms, where when you scratch the surface ... you get more surface.
The Swordsage |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 06:03:23
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One word.....
VECNAAAAA AAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...... |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 06:52:53
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I think some of you are kind of over looking things a bit. Using examples like the Underdark are poor because that would fit anywhere. Kara-tur and the rest were given their own area on the planet so the transition was an easy one that also allowed people to ignore it if they wanted.
This is a whole nother kettle of fish because it takes something that already has an established meaning with people and drops it into a setting that already has established lore to the point where you can trace the information back and point out the inconsistences. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!” #8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 08:23:26
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Geez, do you guys have to pick apart everything? Who says that the Elder Elemental Evil HAS to be in Greyhawk only? It's a multi-verse spanning evil. There's no literary or game specific reason that this couldn't happen in the Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 09:33:16
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quote: Originally posted by jordanz
One word.....
VECNAAAAA AAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA......
*The Sage... having fond memories of the whole "Hey TSR, get your GREYHAWK out of *my* PLANESCAPE" saga.* |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 12:57:22
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quote: Originally posted by Caolin
Geez, do you guys have to pick apart everything? Who says that the Elder Elemental Evil HAS to be in Greyhawk only? It's a multi-verse spanning evil. There's no literary or game specific reason that this couldn't happen in the Realms.
Or, instead of re-inventing the wheel, the designers might stop resurrecting 30 year old D&D events/organizations and come up with something original for the Realms. Just saying.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 13:04:33
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quote: Originally posted by Eilserus
One would think it HAS to be about Ghaunadaur. And if that is the case, you'd think we'd see either the Promenade or that giant slime pit that Clan Huune used to use back in the day.
That's what I'm hoping for and guessing too. Given Eilistraee's hostility towards Ghaunadaur, the Promenade's role and given that Ed said that he has recently written new lore about Eilistraee going forward in post Sundering FR, one would only expect that.
However Ed also said that the new lore about the Dark Dancer probably isn't going to appear in the Elemental Evil story, so that means that we won't see the Promenade. At this point I'm wondering if Ghaunadaur is going to be involved at all... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jan 2015 13:06:14 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 13:17:59
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quote: Originally posted by Caolin
Geez, do you guys have to pick apart everything? Who says that the Elder Elemental Evil HAS to be in Greyhawk only? It's a multi-verse spanning evil. There's no literary or game specific reason that this couldn't happen in the Realms.
Yet they have aboiut 50 FR evils waiting for their turn to finally do something of note (as opposed to Cyric and Shar hogging all the spotlight), and now they are yet again ignored while a brand new evil squeezes itself on the already overcrowded bench |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 15:20:42
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quote: Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Ah, okay. Well, I can see the allure of confirming similarities by linking gods/whatever, but it's the opposite of Ed's intent with the Realms and therefore the wrong approach for designers to take. But they sure love it.
I don't think it's a good mindset to say "It's not Ed's original vision, so it's wrong". A bad idea should be considered a bad idea for reasons other than "Because it's not from the original creator". |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1622 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 15:36:41
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Thanks to the Abyssal Plague series Tharizdun already has a presence on Faerun, with his weird abyssal plague demons, and the cult of the elemental eye already existed so its a very easy transition now, especially if they tie it into the Abyssal Plague some how. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 17:45:22
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quote: Originally posted by Austin the Archmage
I don't think it's a good mindset to say "It's not Ed's original vision, so it's wrong". A bad idea should be considered a bad idea for reasons other than "Because it's not from the original creator".
Fair point, and well stated. You're right that it would be an unproductive mindset to limit oneself to following one particular intent in the setting. You could also challenge my knowledge of Ed's intent, especially since it's not something he talks about all the time -- there's probably a lot he can't say because to do so would badmouth TSR/WotC and that's not beneficial for him or for the Realms.
My response is that I believe (based on his "Down to Earth Divinity" article in an old Dragon magazine where he originally outlined his choices for the Faerunian pantheon) Ed intended for there to be areas where the aims and activities of the gods overlap -- more than one god interested in the outcome of some/most/any events in the Realms.
I like and agree with Ed's reasoning on this point, and that was missing from my statement. I should probably have said something more like "it's the opposite of Ed's intent with the Realms, and he's totally right, and therefore it's the wrong approach for designers to take." It was probably laziness on my part, and perhaps overstepping my bounds, to phrase things the way I did.
Tangent/Example:
I condescendingly dismiss such things as melting Hanali into an alias of Sune (4e FRCG pg 77, 130, 131, and perhaps other sources). First, it's utterly stupid to say that an elven goddess is actually a human goddess. If Hanali exists in every world where there are elves, then either she's a goddess in her own right or else you have to make her an alias of someone else in each of those other worlds. If she's a goddess everywhere else, why would she avoid the Realms and instead allow Sune to use her name? Why, for that matter, would the Seldarine allow Sune to use Hanali's name -- why wouldn't there be a holy war, in which all elven churches try to strike down the blasphemous and disgusting human church that purports to be one of them? The first time Sune used Hanali's name, the elven pantheon should have said "Nope" and then turned to Hanali and said "you gonna let this b-- use your name?" Aaannd then we have Hanali herself in the Realms as she should be. It also makes no sense for Sune to have defeated or otherwise absorbed Hanali... she dislikes Tempus and the Gods of Fury because of the destruction they cause to beautiful things... any goddess of beauty would be by definition a beautiful thing, so destroying it would be against Sune's nature. So no, Hanali is not an alias of Sune. I don't see a perspective from which it would make any sense.
It might have been a little more logical, given the erroneous perspective of trying to lower the number of gods active in Faerun, to make Sune an alias of Hanali, but here the other elven churches would be disgusted by Hanali's willingness to have contact with thousands of human worshipers.
Ultimately, any attempt to combine Sune and Hanali is doomed, futile, and frankly stupid.
Back on point:
A similar case can be made, though perhaps not as black-and-white, against combining Ghaunadaur and Juiblex or the Elder Elemental Whatever. I can get on board with The Elder God or The Dark God being a name for Ghaunadaur in Faerun and Tharizdun in Greyhawk and other gods in other worlds, as long as the Elder God and the Dark God aren't actual gods... they're just generic titles/names used by multiple gods. Heck, Bane or Shar or Myrkul might go by The Dark God sometimes too. When it's just a name being used, I shrug. No big deal. But Ghaunadaur and Tharizdun aren't just names adopted by gods in various worlds. They're gods/powers/somethings, with different groups of supporters and undoubtedly very different attitudes and interactions, regardless of the fact that they're both evil. Ghaunadaur and Tharizdun have less in common than Sune and Hanali, and Sune and Hanali cannot be put together, so...
Anyway, that's my reasoning. Ed was right about this (and other things), and TSR/WotC has been wrong when it acted against his design goals here (and other places).
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 03 Jan 2015 17:47:43 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 18:11:29
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I agree 100% Xae! This crap about this godhas really been this god etc really makes me angry.
I wish WoTc would just back away and let people who know what they are doing take care of the Realms. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!” #8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 18:50:56
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quote: Originally posted by The Sage
quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wouldn't call it a blending of the settings, especially since Greyhawk isn't even mentioned... It looks more like "Hey, this was cool over there, let's do the same thing over here!"
Exactly.
And let's face it, TSR/WotC have been doing that since the earliest days of the concept of core D&D.
THIS.
Originally, 'Icewind Dale' (Drizzt & Co.) was in The Bloodstone Lands (if you don't believe me, just look at the back cover of the product of the same name). The Bloodstone Lands themselves - Vassa & Damara - were NOT part of Ed's Realms. The 1st module in the series came out in 1e before TSR officially published FR.
THUS, the most iconic character in The Realms was part of a sub-setting that was shoe-horned into FR as an after thought. Yet, people are having a problem with them just doing more of what TSR/WotC has always done - take popular products and re-brand them in newer editions. I think some folks 'grognardise' is showing - you're getting annoyed at stuff they've been doing since the beginning. Lets also not forget about The Moonshaes, etc. OD&D/Mystara had Avariel and Arachnea before FR did. There's the DoD series of adventures (with some VERY un-FR lore), and also all the stuff from Dragonquest (SPI) game (like The Shattered Statue). Funny how we tend to forget how 'blended' FR already is, which brings me to....
quote: Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Ah, okay. Well, I can see the allure of confirming similarities by linking gods/whatever, but it's the opposite of Ed's intent with the Realms and therefore the wrong approach for designers to take. But they sure love it.
Ed invented Tyr? Loviatar & Oghma? There are no 'connections' to other worlds in The Forgotten Realms? Its the basic premise! Ed has said time and time again how FR has tons of stuff from other worlds that have been 'leaking' into the Realms over the course of untold millenia.
So here's my take (for what its worth): They had a Spellplague - "When Worlds Collide" - and now they have this Sundering thingamajigy. Also, we had the ToT, during which large swaths of terrain became chaotic and interposed with other worlds. There is also a bit of this in other D&D settings (most notably RL) - things are not only ALL interconnected through the over-cosmology (PS/SJ) - but we've seen plenty of evidence that entire Realms got swapped-around from world to world every so often (Domains of Dread, Returned Abeir, etc). So not only do deities/fiends/elder evils all come from the same set of planes and interlope to other worlds - with or without aliases - but we have examples of geography itself getting moved around.
So think about it - they aren't doing anything different then they've been doing all along, and they even got the mother-of-all McGuffins to cover it in canon. They aren't adding colored rings to our Cheerios... they are adding a new color to our Fruit Loops. And guess what? Its still tastes the same. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2015 21:58:15 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 19:06:47
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quote: Originally posted by George Krashos
quote: Originally posted by Caolin
Geez, do you guys have to pick apart everything? Who says that the Elder Elemental Evil HAS to be in Greyhawk only? It's a multi-verse spanning evil. There's no literary or game specific reason that this couldn't happen in the Realms.
Or, instead of re-inventing the wheel, the designers might stop resurrecting 30 year old D&D events/organizations and come up with something original for the Realms. Just saying.
-- George Krashos
Markustay and The Sage said it best but I'll expand on it. D&D is founded on borrowed material. But I'll grant you, 5E hasn't felt very "Realmsy" at all what with Tiamat and the Elder Elemental and all. But whatever. To me it seems like they have a plan rather than the mess that was 4E where they chased their own tails.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 19:48:13
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Bravo, Mark! A sense of perspective like yours is appreciated in conversations like these. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 21:17:56
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Ed is certainly the originator and perhaps the most beloved of Realms creators - but he is not the only one. Hundreds of authors and game designers shaped the Realms we know and love (regardless which edition lore it might be set within), we can each admire some particular nuance or other which Ed really had nothing to do with (other than perhaps adding subsequent embelishments).
Greyhawk was (and perhaps still is) an immensely popular D&D setting, full of breadth and width. Besides, who is to say that Gygax (inventor of Greyhawk and indeed D&D itself) was less than Ed? Both of these men along with numerous others (including half-forgotten Jeff Grubb) are responsible for the rulebooks and the Realms we know. That being said, I personally have little interest in Greyhawk, indeed not even a lot in the Realms (because - duh! - Planescape is where it's all at, of course). But we cannot arbitrarily dismiss Greyhawk entirely, and especially not just because it's old and stuffy - early Realmslore is no better in that regard.
The Realms has been a sort of fertile dumping ground for all the bits of lore which didn't fit into other settings - the Underdark and Shou are prominent examples, Vaasa and Damara too, along with the Moonshaes, the fabricated "city" of Phlan, Raven's Bluff (lol), and countless snippets of Spelljammer/Planescape lore.
And really, in the end, does it much matter if one battles Vecna or one battles Bane? Is a Quiver of Ehlonna functionally any different than a Quiver of Mielikki? At least Greyhawk has (thus far) been largely immune to all the violent calamities which semi-regularly smash the Realms and Krynn and Mystara and even Athas apart. |
[/Ayrik] |
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