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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 07:25:39
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Not sure if this topic has already been covoured but when Cattie-bre was mentioning Lathander, she referred to the god as her.
Anyone know what that's about?
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 13:05:52
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It probably happened for the same reasons that Lolth became Lloth for a little while. 
On the other hand, they may have wanted to give him more of an eastern feel (where 'dawn' tended to be female - see Ushas of the Indian/Vedic Mythos). If it was done on-purpose, I can get behind that - 'dawn' is at its core about 'rebirth', and Lathander did go MIA for awhile when Aumanator reared his head again (and the Sun god was always considered female by the Bedine of Anauroch).
Personally, I don't think a deity really has a 'sex' in the same way we think of it. Its more like a 'leaning' - gods can appear anyway they want (their physical bodies are made on-the-fly when they manifest somewhere). I think the longer a deity has been around the more 'detached' it becomes from its former life (and sex).
If they plan to keep both sun gods around, it makes sense to give them further differences, IMO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 14:40:29
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| I wonder what Chauntea would think about her paramour's switch in gender. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 15:15:41
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Sadly, Lathander and Chauntea will have to 'detach' 
My little joke aside, if this is done on purpose then I don't like it. I'd prefer they keep Lathander as-is rather than changing his 'gender' all of a sudden (the grognard is strong with me  ). I don't particularly care if the sun god is female, I just don't like arbitrary changes like this. Personally, I've always thought of Lathander's clergy as being one of those that would attract people of many sexual orientations (behind Selune and Sharess). So it would make some sense to me, but I still wouldn't like it.
And there's nothing 'eastern' about his church so far as I've ever been able to tell. He's more akin to Apollo I think. If they want a female sun goddess they should create a new one (perhaps by Lathander 'breaking off' a piece of his power and giving it to another deity). Now that I think about it, he could give a portion to Selune in an effort to strengthen her against Shar. It actually makes perfect sense given the events in some of the novels. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 15:35:27
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You assume it is arbitrary (and sadly, with good reason). There may be a very good story-driven reason behind it. Something along the lines of Lathander 'perishing' to make way for Aumanator, and some (unknown?) former chosen of Lathander ascending and taking the mantle 'Lathander'.
Now, if they also make Ilmater female, that would be weird (even though Ilmatar elsewhere IS female) and heavy-handed. The deity of Dawn being 'arisen anew', not so much.
And there is actually a precedent for this - at the end of the the ToT Midnight took the name 'Mystra' in honor of her former patron. I am sure this has happened other times (with other gods) in FR's past that we don't know about; its easier to just assume another god's name when you take their portfolio, rather then get an entire religion to change around you.
Until we get more information, we just don't know. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2014 15:36:22 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 16:43:16
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Something along the lines of Lathander 'perishing' to make way for Aumanator, and some (unknown?) former chosen of Lathander ascending and taking the mantle 'Lathander'.
Yeah but my grognardia will resist the lure of their story unless it's very well thought out. On top of that, the Bedine look at A'tar (short for Aumanator) as female...not Lathander. There's too much disconnect for me here. If Aumanator were to be described as female then at least there would be more sense to it (IMO).
Lathander rising as female has a certain poetry to it, but at the moment I find the idea unnecessary and arbitrary.
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And there is actually a precedent for this...
Yes there is, it also happened with Shar slaying Ibrandul and there's at least one more but I can't remember which deities were involved (Bane & Xvim? or the holdouts from Lliira?).
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Until we get more information, we just don't know.
Very true. But the track record thus far isn't all that great. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 17:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Not sure if this topic has already been covoured but when Cattie-bre was mentioning Lathander, she referred to the god as her.
Anyone know what that's about?
I don't recall this... Are you sure she was referring to the deity, and not a Chosen?
Can you quote the exact line? I want to see the whole thing before I come to any conclusions. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 17:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Not sure if this topic has already been covoured but when Cattie-bre was mentioning Lathander, she referred to the god as her.
Anyone know what that's about?
I don't recall this... Are you sure she was referring to the deity, and not a Chosen?
Can you quote the exact line? I want to see the whole thing before I come to any conclusions.
“I leave you with this,” said the child who was not a child. “Take heart, for you and all the Bedine. The old ways will return to Anauroch. The Yellow Goddess, who is Amaunator, who is Lathander, will return in all her glory, and desert sands will devour Netheril.”
Excerpt From: R. A. Salvatore. “The Companions: The Sundering, Book I |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 17:51:42
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| Ah, I think she's just speaking to the Bedine through the lens of their own beliefs. They've always regarded A'tar as feminine. It's not likely to lead to an actual change in Lathander's gender. The wider Realms will still see Lathander and Aumanator as male methinks. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 17:57:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Ah, I think she's just speaking to the Bedine through the lens of their own beliefs. They've always regarded A'tar as feminine. It's not likely to lead to an actual change in Lathander's gender. The wider Realms will still see Lathander and Aumanator as male methinks.
Now that I see the line, I concur. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 10:49:28
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| Also remember Lathander was definitely male when appearing to Stedd Whitehorn in The Reaver which is the more recent book, so I'd say he is still "male" at least to the vast majority of the realms. |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 13:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamsar
Also remember Lathander was definitely male when appearing to Stedd Whitehorn in The Reaver which is the more recent book, so I'd say he is still "male" at least to the vast majority of the realms.
And he's listed in the 5e PHB as a god, not a goddess. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 14:18:15
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| and when he flashed me without my consent, he definitely had a pen*s.... granted, the foreskin was in the shape of a rose, but some chicks may dig that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 15:08:49
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and when he flashed me without my consent, he definitely had a pen*s.... granted, the foreskin was in the shape of a rose, but some chicks may dig that.
The perv did the same to me, but why would chicks dig those thorns in place of p*bes? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 24 Dec 2014 15:09:14 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 17:33:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
and when he flashed me without my consent, he definitely had a pen*s.... granted, the foreskin was in the shape of a rose, but some chicks may dig that.
The perv did the same to me, but why would chicks dig those thorns in place of p*bes?
They worship Loviatar? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 01:52:33
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Realmslore has gender-switched deities before. Mask was male in AD&D 1E, female in AD&D 2E, male again in 3E. Waukeen was male in 1E, female in 2E, dead in 3E. Silvanus has also been male and has been female. At least various artwork panels depicting gods and goddesses seemed to be gender-confused at times, but they are nonetheless fundamental canon Realmslore.
Some deities seem to have invariably been locked to one gender. Mystra, Selune, Shar, Tyche/Tymora/Beshaba, and Chauntea are always portrayed as female. Tempus, Bane, Talos, Malar, Tyr, Helm, and Torm are always seen as male. I don't personally like this, since it strongly casts certain portfolios and behaviours and interests with gender-specific associations. War and Destruction and Tyranny are male, Love and Magic and Luck are female, etc - and it really shouldn't be that way, the Realms are really not supposed to be dominated by Yin/Yang thema. I think it would be interesting to see a female Bane or male Selune for example. A female Loviatar/Amaunator doesn't really bother me.
D&D game rules allow most deities to manifest in pretty much any form and any gender they prefer, and to even manifest in different forms or genders for different worshipers or occasions. Realmslore has implicitly held fairly true to game rules, so I don't personally see any problem with Faerunian deities swapping genders. Perhaps a perceived gender change (like Lathander's) is more about the perception of a local church hierarchy than about the deity's actual self-identity. Perhaps individual avatars are generally locked into one gender, although most deities can maintain a number of individual avatars at any time. Perhaps Lathander used comparatively simple shapechanging, illusion, or enchantment magics to change gender during one particular appearance. Most likely, an FR author or editor made a small mistake of little consequence.
I can see deities newly ascended from a mortal background - such as Mystra, Cyric, Kelemvor, etc - being predominantly locked into their original gender roles, mannerisms, thinking, behaviour, etc - their mortal self-perceptions are likely deeply embedded within their psyches. Whereas older deities might emulate gender-based subtleties in a more objective and distant manner, understanding such things in an abstracted and secondhand way learned only through observation. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Dec 2014 01:57:24 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 04:56:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Waukeen was male in 1E, female in 2E, dead in 3E. Silvanus has also been male and has been female.
Wasn't it the Spellplague that finished Waukeen as a deity? The 2nd edition adventure For Duty and Deity brought her back into the fold through the end of the 3rd editions. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 07:10:11
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quote:
Realmslore has gender-switched deities before. Mask was male in AD&D 1E, female in AD&D 2E, male again in 3E. Waukeen was male in 1E, female in 2E, dead in 3E. Silvanus has also been male and has been female. At least various artwork panels depicting gods and goddesses seemed to be gender-confused at times, but they are nonetheless fundamental canon Realmslore.
Can you point to the actual references on this? I've never known Mask to be anything but 'male' and I've been gaming in the Realms since its 1e incarnation. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 07:17:58
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| Yeah, Waukeen rollercoasted a lot through 2E - I had assumed her dead. But according to the wiki sites she never actually perished (unless, perhaps, you prefer Planescape lore, as I do). A male Waukeen would have thwarted Graz'zt's ambitions a bit, I think, unless his daughter Thraxxia could gender-change well enough to fool gods. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 10:47:35
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| I always thought that what a god looks like is determined by how their worshipers imagine them to look. The god can change appearance but its default look is mortal belief defined. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 11:26:54
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I know the story behind Waukeen, I'm referring to references in canon where genders have been different. I'm not referring to a deity simply taking the form of one gender or another, but referring to the general change in the perception of a deity's gender. Where is it shown/stated that Mask was 'female' at some point? And then later 'male'? The only lore I've ever seen has shown Mask as male. Waukeen, to my knowledge, has always been female and Silvanus always male.
Page 16 of the Cyclopedia of the Realms (from the OGB) calls Waukeen 'Liberty's Maiden' and clearly references her as a goddess of commerce. That's solid 1e material. Are you perhaps confusing the pictures from the FR Adventures hardback? If so those are pictures of priests/priestesses, not the gods. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 25 Dec 2014 11:28:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 01:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I know the story behind Waukeen, I'm referring to references in canon where genders have been different. I'm not referring to a deity simply taking the form of one gender or another, but referring to the general change in the perception of a deity's gender. Where is it shown/stated that Mask was 'female' at some point? And then later 'male'? The only lore I've ever seen has shown Mask as male. Waukeen, to my knowledge, has always been female and Silvanus always male.
Page 16 of the Cyclopedia of the Realms (from the OGB) calls Waukeen 'Liberty's Maiden' and clearly references her as a goddess of commerce. That's solid 1e material. Are you perhaps confusing the pictures from the FR Adventures hardback? If so those are pictures of priests/priestesses, not the gods.
Arcanamach just mirrored my own response. I can't recall any instances where those other gods gender changed???? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 03:03:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I know the story behind Waukeen, I'm referring to references in canon where genders have been different. I'm not referring to a deity simply taking the form of one gender or another, but referring to the general change in the perception of a deity's gender. Where is it shown/stated that Mask was 'female' at some point? And then later 'male'? The only lore I've ever seen has shown Mask as male. Waukeen, to my knowledge, has always been female and Silvanus always male.
Page 16 of the Cyclopedia of the Realms (from the OGB) calls Waukeen 'Liberty's Maiden' and clearly references her as a goddess of commerce. That's solid 1e material. Are you perhaps confusing the pictures from the FR Adventures hardback? If so those are pictures of priests/priestesses, not the gods.
Arcanamach just mirrored my own response. I can't recall any instances where those other gods gender changed????
Nor I.
And while I'm far from an expert on Planescape, I'm not aware of anything there saying Waukeen was dead, either. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 05:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Arcanamach just mirrored my own response. I can't recall any instances where those other gods gender changed????
The only one I can think of is Siamorphe. |
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So, Lathander is coming back as a female?
