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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2019 : 22:49:28
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This one is an interesting one and involves that most fun thing of all "time travel". There has always been the anomaly of the spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" being found in the spell book known as the Workbook. That spellbook is attributed to Mentor of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. Of course, Myth Drannor fell before the Seven Sisters were even born.
So what that tells us is that somehow Laeral, Dove and Storm travelled back in time to the City of Song and spent time in Myth Drannor when in their adolescence/childhoods (and perhaps Alustriel - Sylune, the Simbul and Qilue are unlikely to have been so sent given their histories).
In my view, Laeral using either a time portal or the spell set out in the Arcane Age accessories went to Myth Drannor early on in her magical life to grow in magic and learn from the Seven Wizards. That's how her spell appears in the Workbook. I'm sure Elminster sent her and the Srinshee looked after her.
The issue of Dove and Storm is a little different as Dragon #124 makes it clear that they were infants when they were taken from Myth Drannor to the Moonshaes. So why were they sent to Myth Drannor? The Seven Sisters accessory tells us (at p.8) that Elminster was looking after (conveniently) Laeral, Dove and Storm after the death of their mother and abandonment by Dornal Silverhand. Clearly "something" must have occurred such that he could not look after Dove and Storm for a period of time and so he elected to send them back in time to the City of Song (or perhaps Mystra decreed it "necessary"). From Myth Drannor the two took the flying ship to the Moonshaes.
The write up of the Workbook states that Flamsterd purchased the spellbook from a band of adventurers. I would hazard that they were Harpers (the first, first group of such worthies) and took the children with them. It's no coincidence that both Dove and Storm have been some of the staunchest Harpers/Harper allies in the modern Realms. They likely took the Workbook with them and gave it to Flamsterd (who I suspect is far older than the sources allude to) who looked after the girls until it was time for them to return to their present time (i.e. after a calendar year had passed).
Am planning on passing this by Ed to see what he has to say, so stay tuned.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36891 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2019 : 01:28:36
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| I do recall a prior discussion on this, though it wasn't something I kept. I don't recall the exact details, but it had to do with apparent time travel on the part of some of the Sisters. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2019 : 09:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm wondering if the time gate in synnoria is involved in this because it is likewise mentioned in the cormanthyr sourcebook.
I was going to put flamsterd as imaskari because of the entry in GHoTR where the leshay form an alliance with imaskari (which I dislike for many reasons but I don't see why they can't welcome a single artificer into their realm (a nice one of course)
He could just as easily be netherese though given the crashed enclave in the waters.
Yes, I suspect the time gate in the Moonshaes was used also.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12045 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2019 : 20:41:37
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Just to add a little more spin on this read a little earlier in that article. I don't think its a spelljammer at all.
#147;. . . In recent letters to me, the sorceress Laeral has revealed the simple principles of the skyship Vulathar Ravoenen, constructed long ago by unknown artisans in the land now known as Thay.
Also, the description of the ship is more like the Halruaan Skyships and less like a spelljamming vessel. If anything, I'd equate the ship to being similar to the ship of Captain Eartharran Neirdre of the Fair Folk of Evermeet piloted (see Grand History of the Realms page 7 the story about the aearee). I'm noting that the dragon article mentions
It is (or was) a sailing vessel #151; massive and broad of beam so that it may rest upright and intact upon reasonably level ground, but is otherwise similar to a water vessel. It partakes not of the rare or strange in its construction, but rather makes much use of the more flexible woods #151; willow and the great palm #151; so as to give and flow with the winds, and not to endlessly batter against them. It has three masts of such flexible wood, and two rigid panels that are swung down from the sides of the ship, turning on their pivots, to serve as #145;leeboard#146; keels or steering vanes. In air, as in water, these vanes prevent the ship from being driven helplessly sideways by a wind, propelling it forward as intended.
While undamaged, the vessel can never sink beneath the seas, for the same forces that hold it aloft act upon the waves about. The ship#146;s hull is studded with many plates -#151; polished tortoise-shell, I believe, although Laeral gives the impression that other substances will do #151; upon which levitate spells of unusual strength and duration have been cast.
Now look at the ship pictured in that GHotR entry. Parts of its hull do indeed look a bit like tortoise shell. It also has leeboard vanes (though that pictured one has 3 and not 2). Also, given that the article says that the maximum height reached is 3600' and that the ship is piloted via a rod of levitation and not a helm, I'd definitely steer from calling it a spelljamming vessel. Most of its descriptions match the descriptions of Halruaan Skyships from shining south. Also, that part of the dragon article that mentions Thay kind of matches this from Shining South
The ships were originally invented in far off Netheril, by the ancestors of the Halruans. The Red Wizards of Thay have claimed the credit for the invention, but Halruans know the truth.
So, what pops in my head are
A) was the Vulathor Ravoenen ship one of several used by the fey to Synnoria to traverse through the Time Gate?
B) was captain Eartharran Neirdre of Evermeet that was noted as travelling back in -31000 DR according to GHotR using the Vulathor Ravoenen or another skyship?
C) IF the answer to B was yes, then in theory that skyship is the one that crashed north of fort flame.
D) If king Zaor Moonflower is the one that sent Eartharran Neirdre into the past using the Synnoria Time Gate, is this Time Gate the entire reason that elves of Llewyrr elves came to the Moonshaes at the same time that the Vyshantaar were settling evermeet (both in -9800 DR).
E) Is there any linkage between the Moonshae Isles/Synnoria and the Creation of Evermeet and this Time Gate? We know that the Elven Sundering reached forward and backward in time, so...
F) What's all this posturing about unknown people in "what becomes Thay" making the original skyships and the people of Halruaa saying it was their Netherese ancestors. Maybe both learned it from the elves? If its using turtle shells, maybe it was actually something of the batrachi or the aearee? Was it using pieces of the artifact found beneath what becomes Thay for its empowerment?
G) Did the future King Zaor who WAS from Myth Drannor send Dove and Storm in their youth to Synnoria for some reason.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Jan 2019 21:00:37 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12045 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2019 : 02:17:01
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Never heard of this flying ship going to -31000 Dr, is it in GHoTR.
I've already linked the Moonshaes to the wondering as an unintended byproduct (rip a chunk off the land and bits get left behind).
Perhaps the tortoise shell design is used because it is the most efficient at holding flying magical enchantment.
Yeah, GHotR page 7, one of the sidebars. This one by Eric L. Boyd and its listed as -31000 DR (note, there is one misspelling in theory in that it lists King Zoar instead of King Zaor). The parts that make me believe that they went back in Time are this which is from a modern day "Loremaster Ignace Dethingeller"
From the wreckage, I managed to recover a portion of a journal apparently written by Captain Eartharran Neirdre, of the Fair Folk
of Evermeet, during a voyage of exploration down the coast from the
north during the reign of King Zoar.
Several entries in the late captain’s journal mention the Iqua-Tel’Quessir—the Elven term for the nigh-mythical creator races, and the mysteries that surround their fate. Eartharran’s notes suggest that he was hunting for a lost city whose contents might resolve some of these questions. In one entry, he notes that most of the fey had already retreated to the otherworldly realm of Faerie, and that the sarrukh were reputedly slumbering in the depths of the Mhair Jungles (a rumor to which I give little credence). He speaks with derision of humankind’s burgeoning numbers and the debased descendants of the batrachi who inhabit the darkest swamps of Faerûn, then briefly addresses the long-simmering debate among scholars as to whether dragons or an avian race rounded out the ranks of the Iqua-Tel’Quessir.
It then goes on to have an encounter with some aearee, and it describes them as a dragon/avian hybrid. The entire entry is written with a note of -31000 DR, and the captain's log entries SOUND like notes from that time. So, it would seem like King Zaor sent some elves back in time to research the time of the creator races for some reason (maybe researching avariels?) using a flying ship similar to that mentioned as used by Dove and Storm as children going to the moonshaes.
Just curious, do we know WHEN Zaor became ruler of Evermeet, and was it before Myth Drannor's fall? I'm thinking not, but IF it was, then possibly the trip to the Moonshaes might have even been WHEN the ship went into the past (which may have meant that Dove and Storm spent some of their formative years in the time of the creator races AND at the time when the world split into Abeir and Toril and the ice moon/crystal sun Zotha was destroyed by Asgorath/Asgoroth).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Jan 2019 02:21:13 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2019 : 12:53:14
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Zaor became king after the fall of Myth Drannor. I'm pretty sure that the -31,000 DR entry in GHotR is not set at that time but simply providing some info about that time - or more correctly, the "Creator Races".
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2477 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2019 : 02:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Changed my mind, Flamsterd's obsession with the natural world and his knowledge of gates and mythals leads me to believe he is from Myth Drannor. I vaguely recall a number of mages fled Myth Drannor before its fall so I figure he is one of them.
That's one-note gimmick thinking.
He's from Moonshae, that's more than sufficient to explains the inclinations and interest in elven magic.
Also, Flamsterd explicitly had a Myth Drannor connection in Ed's canon: he got his hands on “The Wizards’ Workbook”. Which was penned by Mentor, who indeed lived in Myth Drannor, and even participated in creation of its mythal. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2019 : 09:33:13
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As for the Moonshaes, I'd like to know more about this legend:
"Gnarhelm is the original home of the Roaming Bear legend so commonly heard among the northmen. The legend tells
of a great bear that paces across the highlands on misty evenings, devouring whole families with a single bite. Some
versions claim that the bear can shift its shape into that of a man. Most of the tales state that the bear moves as
a ghostly apparition that cannot be killed."
I was thinking of using it in my campaign, but I still haven't figured out how. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 19:32:42
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Trying to figure out how a clan based society might work.
I think in traditional feudal societies the King awards land to nobility who in turn allow common folk to work the land (either as serfs or for a tithe).
Clans are not the same as nobles, they seem like extended families around a central family. At the moment I'm leaning towards the King owning all land and the clans laying claim to tracts of land and promising to pay a tithe (a hundredth for instance) of everything produced on that land.
Clans allow normal families to pledge loyalty to the clan, promising to obey its rules and represent it with honour, and work towards whatever tithe is agreed. In return the clan promises to protect the families from monsters, bandits, other clans, etc.
Independent families can of course claim land and pay tithe to the King and his collectors, but there is the risk that other clans may muscle in on the territory (steal livestock, crops, etc, or cause an accident).
Now on Gwynneth there is massive amounts of land so the clans control the most productive areas, while the independents get the more dangerous or lower yield lands.
On Moray land is restricted, so clans control almost all the land.
Callidyrr and Snowdown are moving towards more feudal nobility so its a different model. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 23:23:03
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Well, the Moonshaes have been kingless for most of their existence so the power of the king or otherwise probably hasn't been an issue. I'd personally do some research on how the Scottish clans interacted with the Scottish kings in the Tudor period and beforehand. That might provide some insight.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2019 : 10:20:36
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I always figured that the Moonshaes isles each had their own king (or equivalent) and that became an official monarchy or monarchies with the creation of the office of High King (otherwise what would be the point of a title of "high king".
Admittedly I'm ignoring the majority of elven, dwarven, giant, and leshay rule that held sway for millennia but that's only because I'm not very familiar with elves and dwarves and giants and fey, and those kingdoms are all but vanished in the modern era and were isolated from mainland faerun so can have had no effect outside of the Moonshaes. So in this instance I can ignore the demihuman and nothing else will suffer for that ignorance.
The clan rule of Scotland is only well detailed by the time England gets involved and brings along the more familiar noble feudal system which I'm hoping to avoid as that seems more like callidyrr where you have noble lords dividing up the land and clans ruling that land for them operating as sheriff's and tax collectors and police.
I'm hoping to come up with a system just prior to the middle ages but with a king. I figure the clans are like mafia families (But nicer). However it is the king to clan relationship that is bothersome. If a king grants landed titles to someone they immediately become noble and you have the problem of inheritance and permanent ownership.
I'm trying to imagine something more fluid whereby the ownership comes purely from staking a claim to that land and providing the necessary tithe and tribute to the king. That way another clan can muscle in if he can enforce protection from the inhabitants and pay the tithe and tribute to the king. This sometimes results in tithes being paid double for the same region and two clans claiming ownership of the same land but that is costly and cannot continue for long.
Moray seems like quite a poor land but with a strong martial tradition so all tithes are likely paid in kind rather than coin.
I'm also making the king peripatetic, so he has no home of his own, and instead wanders between clan holdings and staying with them. It makes the bond between king and clan closer and makes Moray different to the other islands. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2019 : 10:29:26
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
(...)
There is one children for each of the races (...) this bear is meant to combat giants and dwarves.
If you think of one children for each PEOPLE, and not necessarily race, he could also be the response to the Northmen...
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I've not settled on a name for him yet, I was thinking something like Darbolv (...)
Since you mentioned "bolg", it would be DarbolG, or was the V intentional? Would it be a typo or a variation of the name?  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12045 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2019 : 21:41:24
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| I'd recommend watching Rob Roy... because well its about clans with feudal lords involved, and its got cattle rustling, old fashioned loans, thievery, bastards, talk of sheep shagging, dueling, and well... its Rob Freakin' Roy... I mean, it won't give you any major insight into clans anymore than you already know, BUT at the end you can say you watched Rob Roy yet another time. Plus, it will remind you to start adding the word quim into your daily conversations. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12045 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2019 : 13:24:37
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Funnily enough I just added something about slavery inspired by Rob Roy, although I can honestly say I have never been tempted to use the q word in any conversation, polite or otherwise.
Great film
Lol, that's the only movie I've ever heard the term in, and it was like they were using it left and right. Afterwards I had to look it up to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting. There were actually several terms in that movie I picked up, but that's the only glaring one coming to mind. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2019 : 11:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm tempted to come up with an origin for rangers as an organisation (...)
It always struck me as odd that there is a special type of profession that is prevalent all across the Sword Coast north, all with similar skill sets.
So have a single organisation of origin that formed that profession and then it can spread to other lands later
(...)
Not Moonshaes-related, but IIRC the OGB says that most of the "modern" ranger lore was collected in Myth Drannor, by the Guild of Naturalists (the owner of the Hall of the Beast-Tamers). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2019 : 09:21:00
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I think maybe a combination of the two would work. The OGB says that the the Naturalist's Guild studies on "the natural habits and pursuits of wild creatures" (...) "resulted in much of what is now ranger lore".
It means that, either if they were part of the 1st Harpers' incarnation or not (the reference says nothing about it), their knowledge somehow survived the fall of the city. On the other hand, it says "much of it", so at least a small part of the modern knowledge was gained through other influences, which may include the Moonshaes.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6385 Posts |
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All Things Moonshae
