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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 14:06:41
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These are a number of things i have been wondering about. Any information on any of the topics bellow would help me out immensly to gain some perspective on the realms and how it functions in the moonsea area!
Thar
ive found conflicting information on how this place should look... on one part it is described as a foggy moor with brown/grey grasses, fetid sulferous bogs and jutting 30 foot high menhirs of stone often carven with images of Vaprak, the Ogre god - or the first of the Ogre Tharkuls. At most, the trees are shaggy pines which grow in small copses on the high ground - and as it rises up towards the Galena mountains the marshes become fewer, the ravines deeper and land more red with iron rich mud washed down from the heights.
The only trouble is, if the Galena mountains are synonimous with 'Red', after all the blood stones of Vassa are harvested from it, and the people of Glister seem to mine Iron - how come Thar is called the great grey land? Is this just in reference to the Fog?
Additionally, a friend who lives in england told me Moors are usually flush with life and very green? why then are the grasses in the thar brown and grey?
additionally again, how does one forge a Caravan through the frontier all the way to Glister (5 days ride, probably longer with heavy wagons and the rough terrain), if the Thar is essentially cut with bogs - could it be assumed the caravaners have built many wooden plank bridges through the Thar?
Or do i have completely the wrong image of this place. Because i am seriously confused.
The Ride
Why is so little written about this place? Who are the horse-lords decended from? when did their culture develope?? are they damaran in origin, Mulan, Netherese. What nameing conventions do they use? i cant seem to find anything of value for this.
Zhentil Keep
If they are so hated - does anyone still trade with the Zhents??
Now i know they have the black network, which is wide spread across Faerun, i just do not know how it opperates. Do they strip mine places for resources and then sell on the produce to nations in need, undercutting the local competition - or, despite the sinister name, do they actually offer quality wares?
It seems Mulmaster and Hillsfar hate them for one reason or another - and the noble houses of Melvaunt, up until the banedeath anyway, seemed to be united in their hatred for Zhentilkeep.
Who do the Zhents have legitimate trade with? Do they trade legitimately ever?
The Black Road
So it is my understanding that the Black Road, running south from Zhentilkeep along the Tesh river valley passes through Daggerdale on its way to the Anauroch.
Why would any sane merchant make this journey.
even an insane merchant would know better.
additionally, when Zhentilkeep pulled out of Daggerdale, were they still able to use the black road? What other road could they possibly take to reach trade on the sword coast?
I guess what i am trying to say here is - The trade network in that direction is completely unviable! unless i am missing something major (I know the sky mages escort caravans sometimes, Surely not as far as Waterdeep!)
Ships
What sort of ships are used on the Moonsea? It is a giant inland lake - with alot of slave trade - so for some reason the first thing that came to mind was an Abundance of slave-rowed Triemes.
Sail ships i can imagine too, but i just cant imagine a Galleon ever having set sail without a cannonade. A medieval Galleon with catapults and Ballista just doesnt seem right... IS there a good source of information on the types of ships used in the realms?
Marel
It says the Marel were once sea elves. If this is the case, are there other sea elf colonies in the moonsea?
Slave trade
How much do slaves sell for? I read somewhere they are worth around 100 gold a peice. However i do not know if this is reliable for a price estimate.
Melvaunt has a slave market - but where does it raid to get the slaves? Or does it just alow visiting slavers to trade their 'goods' at market within the city so long as they pay the Lords Tax on each transaction?
Thankyou :)!
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
Edited by - Fendrikor on 24 Nov 2014 14:16:43
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 14:26:07
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Purple Water
Was the purple colouration of the moonsea ever explained? |
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 15:08:41
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A couple of answers but not all.
The moors of That are so lifeless because of the magic used to create it. Long ago (between -300 DR and -200 DR) a black dragon named Embrurshaille claimed Thar and the Moonsea as her territory.
She was surrounded by dragons much greater than herself and she desired their lands so she devised a magic ritual to imbue herself with magic power. Unfortunately the ritual went wrong and drained Thar of much of its life and magic (the two being fairly synonymous in the Realms) and possibly caused Tyranthraxus to assume his current form as the possessing spirit.
Iyrauroth is her brother.
The colours thing in Thar i believe is linked to the seasons. Being so close to the Galena's, Thar is quite cold, but it is also largely barren (because of the reasons above). So during the long winter everything is frozen and grey. Then in spring things start to melt, its gets boggy and misty and can be green for about 1 month. Then summer arrives and bakes the land hard turning it back into the grey land before winter arrives.
Caravans travel in the few summer months when the land isnt a quagmire or a frozen wasteland.
On to the Ride. The barbarians are descended from a number of sources. The original inhabitants that lived with in the Citadel of the Raven were probably their own progenitor race, maybe of Talfir stock (since that seems to be the most ancient northern stock of humans).
These barbarians would have been added to by Netherese refugees (Barze and Netheril) as well as some Rengarth barbarians.
Onto Zhentil Keep. Depending upon your current year (i presume you have taste and so stick to pre spellplague). People trade with the Zhents because the Zhents are soo good at manipulating events to their advantage. Their intelligence network allows them to identify what people have what needs and so they simply provide whatever is needed to them.
Things are a lot more complicated than that though. The Zhentarim employ a number of official Zhent caravans as well as undercover Zhent Caravans. They mine raw ores in the Galenas (from Thar etc) and then ship the valuable metals elsewhere. The Western Heartlands seems to be the main destination and from there on to lands north (the North) and south (calimshan) they also deal in slaves and valuable trade goods and are quite proficient at raiding other caravans with monstrous humanoids to get goods they cannot obtain otherwis.
Zhent operations are a mix of official deals where they arrive with vastly discounted goods to undercut the opposition (who they then force out of town), and unofficial exploits such as attacking caravans en route to a place, placing agents in other caravan costers or in the destination town, and using other means such as monsters to drive up need of a particular product.
Once they have their foot in the door they eliminate the opposition, make themselves indispensable, drive up the prices, and place their own men in positions of power within a settlement (assassination, bribery, blackmail, anything goes). Once the settlement belongs to the Zhentarim it becomes a storage depot and stopping point for their caravans (because few people willingly trade with the Zhentarim because of their reputation unless they are desperate), and then they move onto the next settlement.
The other cities of the Moonsea and Zhentil Keep were all involved in a delicate power struggle for control of the Moonsea Region. They all wanted to dominate trade in the area because the Moonsea is very mineral rich. Zhentil Keep has all but won that struggle as of 1370 DR because it has agents that run Phlan and they killed Selfaril Uomdolphin (the High Blade of Mulmaster) and replaced him with Rassendyl Uomdolphin - his twin brother. Now Fzoul Chembryl (who has become the Zhentarim for now) is in direct control of at least half of the cities of the Moonsea and nobody even knows he is doing it (Zhentil Keep set up a mock war with Mulmaster where the Zhent fleet was destroyed, but of course the Zhents own both cities).
The Black Road is used because it is potentially the quickest route to the North and the Western Heartlands and it bypasses all those costly stopovers in the Dalelands, Cormyr, etc. You have to be a Zhent to use it and being insane helps, but the idea was that they could engineer a need for certain resources in the Savage Frontier and then ship those wares in vast quantities and sell them at insanely high prices before anyone else could respond.
Shipping resources to the incredibly wealthy cities like Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate and the rest has the potential to make one richer than their wildest dreams. If Sarevok's plan in Baldur's Gate had been done by the Zhents they could have bought Waterdeep with the money they would make.
With Daggerdale now out of their control the Zhents will have to either use heavily armed caravans and just force their way through the dale, or they will have to rely on underground routes and their Drow allies. It'll be a bit more costly but still much cheaper than going through Cormyr and the Dales.
As for ships. The Moonsea is connected to the Inner Sea by the River Lis that runs from the top of the Dragon Reach to the Moonsea appearing by Elmwood. It is said that even ships of deep draft can sail through the river lis. However in an early Moonsea War the ships from one side are said to have rammed the Zhent ships so i expect they are both sail and oar driven. They are referred to as cogs and coasters so i expect smallish sailed ships with slave decks tied to oars (just in case)
I dont believe there are any other sea elf colonies in the Moonsea, but there are mention of drow in the depths below the Moonsea with some form of access to the sea floor.
As for slaves. I would imagine the price of the slave depends upon the need of the buyer and the skills of the slave. I picture slave markets like auctions and if you get into a bidding war for a particularly fine specimen then it could cost thousands (remember 100 gp is still more than an average labourer could make in a year so its not exactly small change). That being said i dont think many of the slaves are sold in the Moonsea, instead they are shipped off to the Old Empires where they fetch a higher price.
The slaves will come from the weak and undesirable residents of the Moonsea cities. Those petty criminals and people who cannot pay their debts, or just those unfortunate enough to fall to a press gang will be sold into slavery. Cities in Sembia are known to have criminal gangs that traffic slaves to the Moonsea cities, and indeed some of the local governments in Sembia sell criminals and unwanted people to the gangs to get rid of them.
It appears everyone has elements of society that they dont want around and so they secretly use the Moonsea to dispose of their unwanted garbage.
Failing that just capture a bunch of orcs or elves or other humanoids and sell them as exotic slaves.
And anything to do with Thar and the Moonsea has got to include Iyrauroth, he is one bad, understated dragon. |
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 16:18:15
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:) haha, i dont know - that seems like a pretty comprehensive list of answers to me.
Thankyou so much Dazzlerdal - you are a master scholar!
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 21:58:24
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Well, pretty much everything Dazzlerdal said is correct, although it's a bit diffrent about the barbarians. It was said, by Eric L. Boyd I think, that the Ride barbarians are most probably mostly descended from Rengarth stock, except the The Snow People of Thar, who are descended from Northmen, who came to the Moonsea region through a portal. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 21:59:58
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According to a couple of sources (which I do not have recorded any more), both the Barbarians of the Ride and Tunland barbarians are related to the Netherese.
However, that could mean A) they are part of the original ethnic group which never became civilized and part of the Empire, B) are the remnant of the survivors of that empire, or C) are all part of some more ancient ethnic group that traveled across the north, broke into separate 'tribes', and became all these different groups we know of today (my money would be on the Gur - a group of Raumvari barbarians who were never part of Raumathar).
As for the Moonsea - it wasn't always there, and certainly not in the form it is today. It used to be called the Dragonsea (by the elves).
As for Zhentish trade - the shortest route doesn't only mean the quickest (and in the case of crossing Anauroch, certainly not the safest, and perhaps not even faster), but it is through areas not controlled by governments (until the Shades arrived). Passing through kingdoms - and maybe even the Dales - requires the payment of tariffs (taxes), and thats the #1 thing that drives prices up in trade. If you can find a fairly reliable route from the Moonsea to the Sword Coast with very little in the way of tax-collectors, thats a pretty huge thing, and it means you can undercut most of your competition (control the trade, control the world).
I was unaware the Moonsea was purple. I do know its fresh water, which is one of the reasons most 'normal' marine life avoid the brackish waters of The Lis. Magical/fantasy water-breathers don't seem to have a preference, for some strange reason.
MOORS: Over the past few years, I've come to the conclusion that the FR 'moors' (terrain type) have very little to do with RW moors, and instead that particular terrain should be read as "we don't know what this is - none of us can agree. Its a little bit of everything, or whatever you say it is". Its pretty much just 'fantasy wasteland', and in nearly every case, magically-created (just like ALL the deserts). Since we don't have a RW example of 'magically devastated wasteland', use your imagination (because those sure as heck aren't traditional moors).
Personally, I picture rolling hills (briefly covered with grasses and flowers in spring) with soggy depressions (valleys) between them, sometimes 'marshy', and sometimes actual lakes. Because of the altitudes of the hills and the depths of the valleys, this is what gives most of them that 'fog shrouded' appearance. Basically, they're the place in the horror movie where the bad guy always lives. Throw in trolls and old ruins and whatever else and you got yourself a 'no-mans land'. Good place for adventurers to level-up, but not a good place for anyone sane. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Nov 2014 22:04:08 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 23:34:29
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Mulmaster and Hillsfar have slave markets, I believe. As do the Zhents. And I believe the Red Wizards are quite fond of enslaving Moonsea folk.
Although written for a different place called Thar in the Mystara setting, GAZ10: The Orcs of Thar is a fine accessory for the region, easily adapted for an excellent fit.
As to the Black Road ... what makes you think Zhents are above making their trade route moree attractive through predations upon alternative routes? A merchant might be willing to pay so-called taxes on the Black Road, gain some small assurance from the Zhent patrols and toll-stations, make better time, and gain similar or even better overall profit on each trip.
I had thought the aquatic Seros dwelled within the Moonsea, although I might be mistaken. I think its a freshwater body, which may explain why aquatic sophonts of thee Moonsea are separated from their saltwater cousins in the Sea of Fallen Stars. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 00:09:33
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I use the underground areas of Orcs of Thar beneath the Great Grey Land of Thar for the local underdark...awesome fit. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 01:03:40
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quote: Originally posted by Fendrikor Purple Water Was the purple colouration of the moonsea ever explained?
Same what paints water in our world? Unusual silt in smaller bays, microphytic algae anywhere.
quote: Originally posted by Ayrik
I had thought the aquatic Seros dwelled within the Moonsea
The Sea of Fallen Stars did what? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 03:02:25
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It.sank. everything. o_o
Sorry couldnt help myself :)
Is there an ecology for the moonsea?
Reason I ask is in the 2nd ed book moonsea there is some reference to a plant called saltkelp.
If the waters are fresh perhaps this is just a name?
No sharks, krakens, ocean creatures. Giant fish?
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
Edited by - Fendrikor on 25 Nov 2014 03:04:54 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 03:48:34
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Maybe not quite fresh, but it looks more like a big bay with narrow exit and influx of fresh water from rivers rather than "sea" proper, and as such have to be noticeably less salty that typical seawater.
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont believe there are any other sea elf colonies in the Moonsea, but there are mention of drow in the depths below the Moonsea with some form of access to the sea floor.
Eric L Boyd's development for Maerimydra - see here and here (and related notes here). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 11:45:15
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That's a great reply, Dazzlerdal. Thanks for posting it.
BTW, your closing comment about Iyrauroth (... he is one bad, understated dragon.): would you please post your sources for more about this dragon. I have come across him once or twice but you're implying there is more to know and I would love to know more. |
Cheers D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 13:49:42
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quote: Originally posted by Fendrikor
No sharks, krakens, ocean creatures. Giant fish?
Toril is NOT Earth.
That means there very-well could be 'fresh water' version of sharks. In fact, I was going to mention sharks in my last post (concerning the Lis), because they have been known (RW) to swim miles up-river in some places, away from the coast. Thus sharks have a high tolerance for non-salt water (apparently), and there is no reason why certain FR species could have adapted.
Krakens, canonically, no. No sea-mammals (whales, dolphins, etc) either... until some author makes a blunder somewhere and we wind up with them (its only a matter of time ). Nothing that large, except for fantasy critters (like sea serpents, dragon-turtles, etc). You could, however, put whatever you want in it - canon is a suggestion, not a set of shackles. You do whatever makes you happy.
Given its proximity to ancient Ostoria, I would be very surprised if there weren't at least a few Sea (Storm) Giant enclaves beneath the waves.
In my homebrew musings (back when I was working on the Elven Netbook project), I had considered making the Marel a group of VERY rare albino drow that became sea-Elves (Elves seem to have this ability of changing type... gods are often involved), which means they are 'regular sea elves' (as the lore states), but they retained some of their drow tendencies (they aren't very nice... AT ALL). Once again, though, this whole last paragraph is homebrew, NOT canon (although there are rare albino drow). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2014 13:51:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2014 : 00:07:50
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My players encountered a rather nasty mutant jellyfish in the depths of the Moonsea. Not canon, just sadism. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2014 : 15:36:48
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I like the idea of grayish grass, and we have some real-world examples. Here's one: blue fescue.
I shall issue a warning here. I'm not a biologist, and the following sciency bits are paraphrased, based on memories from something I heard 20 years ago. Also, I'm not trying to bog the thread down with real-world science... feel free to fill the gaps/errors in my memory if you're so inclined but another thread or private message would be the place for it.
So, I learned something fascinating from a lecture about why leaves change color. Undoubtedly, part of the reason I glommed onto this idea is that Ed's blueleaf trees suddenly made sense even without relying on our readily-available crutch ("it's magic!"). There's a thing called anthocyanin, which is (wholly? partially?) responsible for the blues and purples we see in some flowers/petals/leaves. With some handwaving to account for not being an expert and the fact that magic in the setting means I don't need to be an expert, it means that plants can be blue (any shade, including the pale blue-green of the fescue) while still thriving on photosynthesis.
Other natural dyes, and the "conservation of resources" that trees undergo in fall/winter account for the range of green, yellow, orange, and red we see more frequently in tree leaves. And we see those other colors more frequently because the green is "dominant" when it's present, kinda like brown eyes are dominant and blue eyes are recessive in the human genome. Blue is the most "recessive" out of at least three different dyes. As spring turns to summer and fall, the green dye is gradually withdrawn from the leaves. The next-most-dominant dye color is yellow, and as that dye is withdrawn the leaves darken... because blue is the last to leave. So a hypothetical tree species in which the blue eye was (magically or otherwise) altered to be dominant could have bright blue leaves. Which I think is ridiculously cool.
My apologies to the bona fide biologists and students in the room. Like I said, it's been a while, and I was in computer science at the time; biology wasn't really my thing. Now of course I wish I had taken more notes. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2014 : 17:01:42
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I like Razorgrass, m'self, from the MtG Mirrodin set. I steal a lot from that lore. For awhile, I think it was actually better then the D&D stuff they were producing at the time.
I use the Razor Fields down in my version of The Shaar. Its a great fit, and leonin are so much cooler then wemics (never cared for wemics, which is odd, because I love centaurs).
Anyhow, Razorgrass would fit perfectly in Thar as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Nov 2014 17:07:34 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2014 : 14:34:07
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In the Silver Marches sourcebook I came across 'giant freshwater squid' in the Staunt Pools entry. Not exactly the Moonsea, but relevant.
So, I guess on some levels I was right, and others wrong. Apparently there are freshwater varieties (on Toril) of just about everything, so you can encounter just about anything you want in the Moonsea.
The salinity of the water has absolutely no bearing on anything in a fantasy setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2014 14:35:25 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2014 : 19:51:17
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay For awhile, I think it was actually better then the D&D stuff they were producing at the time.
Before or after the same stuff appears in *D&D?
quote: Anyhow, Razorgrass would fit perfectly in Thar as well.
Razor grass grows on Cathrys (Carceri) - that's where realms of Malar and Grolantor (hill giants' god) are, so the stuff may eventually get to the Realms here and there.
Of course, this also calls for attempts at extermination of the hellish kudzu before it overruns ecosystems (a plain of swords looks like a suboptimal habitat for many, many animals), mutates into something even worse (like egarus did), etc.
quote:
In the Silver Marches sourcebook I came across 'giant freshwater squid' in the Staunt Pools entry. Not exactly the Moonsea, but relevant. So, I guess on some levels I was right, and others wrong. Apparently there are freshwater varieties (on Toril) of just about everything
Down in the Underdark there's a war between blue ring octopi and vampire squids, so why not.
quote: The salinity of the water has absolutely no bearing on anything in a fantasy setting.
The Lukhorn's Gullet have separate floors for freshwater and saltwater guests. Which is cool.
quote: Originally posted by Mapolq
Sahuagin are stated somewhere to have problems living in fresh water
Well, yes. Not that it would be much of a problem in Moonsea anyway (q.v. "Sharksbane Wall"). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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