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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Nov 2014 : 23:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't think the lore supports gnolls ever being the "big bad", whereas orcs in the North have always been accorded this status.
Gongs can exist throughout the North and other parts, but they are simply not a major "player" in these areas.
-- George Krashos
I haven't been attacked by a Gong in awhile. 
Yes, me either. Fixed.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12047 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 05:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm sure i've read in a few sourcebooks that the elves and dwarves of the north expended much of their numbers and power keeping the orcs isolated in the Spine of the World.
Certainly once Eaerlann and Delzoun fail there is an explosion of orcs that reach progressively further south.
Not too sure on the origins of orcs since we have sources citing them fighting dwarves for control of their holds in the Spine of the World (which is pretty ancient) and that they arrived from elsewhere before the elves, none of this however excludes orcs being mutated humans, in fact the first mention of orcs has them led by a demon so it might be demon influence/breeding that creates the first orc. And gray orcs possibly came from another world so may or may not be related to mountain orcs (although the bloodlines appear to mingle in several places at several points in history)
Looking at timeline events i had a go at pinpointing the century in which orcs migrated into areas like the dalelands and the Moonsea and the Western Heartlands (and from what direction and subrace). The only problem is the Netheril sourcebook which just randomly chucks about 100000 orcs every centuries.
I think George has some alternative ideas on hobgoblins, with one branch existing in the Unapproachable East that may be a case of convergent evolution brought about by magical experimentation from dragons (dragons kidnap goblins, turn them into hobgoblins through magic and breeding, hobgoblins evolve naturally on their own in the south much later).
Given the hobgoblin intelligence and resourcefulness they exhibit above other goblinoids it is possible they migrated the normal way across Faerun by walking rather than hordes for orcs or magic for other races. With a hooded cloak they could probably pass for a sick human and travel right through human nations with little trouble (people avoid plague sufferers for fear of catching the disease).
Goblins are too small to notice and probably got pushed out of useful areas by humans into less hospitable terrain which explains their spread.
And then there is always the upper reaches of the Underdark which humanoids can use to migrate through (if they can find it)
I like gnolls in Thay, in what were once Sarrukh lands (masters of transmutation magic) and full of portals to whisk them away to other parts of Faerun. The Sarrukh were known to experiment on their servant races quite heavily so gnolls and centaurs have a possible origin there
I know the sarrukh were creator races, but I'd be careful with having them creating creatures like gnolls and centaurs. My imagining is that there were a lot of other races around naturally... just they didn't get into racial experimentation. Let the Sarrukh experiment into reptilian-type stock. For the humans that created races, I'd go with the really twisted stuff (owlbears, chimeras, etc....). The fey I'd have making fey race twists (spriggans, various fairies, quicklings, and weird plant creatures). The aerial race mostly making aerial beings, and the amphibious race making amphibious/aquatic creatures. Of course, that's just my own take. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 13:42:52
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In Marco Volo: Journey, Gnolls are apparently active in the region around Iriaebor. I find it amusing that the accompanying illustration shows a gnoll with nun-chuks. I guess gnolls are monks.
Take it with a grain of salt - that particular series leaves MUCH to be desired. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 19:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In Marco Volo: Journey, Gnolls are apparently active in the region around Iriaebor. I find it amusing that the accompanying illustration shows a gnoll with nun-chuks. I guess gnolls are monks.
That would be a Flind with Flind Bars. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2014 : 18:22:06
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Aye, and I wouldn't be surprised if flinds are the type of gnoll most likely to be found further up north than other tribes. They are described to be tougher and stockier; to me their shorter snouts and ears suggest an adaptation to colder climes.
So the gnome village of Samek has been overrun by flinds from the Great Glacier I gather? Or is it the common case of a individual flind leading a gnoll tribe? |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 14:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In Marco Volo: Journey, Gnolls are apparently active in the region around Iriaebor. I find it amusing that the accompanying illustration shows a gnoll with nun-chuks. I guess gnolls are monks.
That would be a Flind with Flind Bars.
Except, IT WASN'T. There is a flind in that adventure, but the art shows a gnoll, not a flind. Me thinks the artist didn't know that flinds look more feline then gnolls.
As an aside, in my homebrew musings I have it where the early (primordial) Rakshasa experimented on several different types of creatures (in the region that would eventually give rise to the Imakari). By crossing with human Tabaxi (Chultans) they created the tabaxi - a race of catfolk (and hence, the confusion with the names). They also bred with gnolls, creating a 'greater' variety now know as Flinds (and they may have gotten the idea from Lizardfolk and Lizardkings, OR, they may have been a forerunner to that). It was a natural connection, being that demons - which Rakshasa are - are responsible for various other sorts of 'greater' creatures (Tanurukks, etc). As I said, just my personal musings is all.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Nov 2014 14:55:41 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2014 : 11:59:15
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quote:
The flind is similar to a gnoll in body style, though it is a little shorter, and broader. They are more muscular than their cousins. Short, dirty, brown and red fur covers their body. Their foreheads do not slope back as far, and their ears are rounded, but still animal like. -2nd Ed Monster Manual, 1993
MV:Journey came out in 1994. The original FF from 1981 did have Flinds look more cat/lion-like but that was cleaned up in AD&D 2nd Ed. The art could have been spot on; however, the timing of the release just a year after could mean the artist was contracted to draw the flind like the 1st edition and misunderstood resulting in a gnoll with flind bars. Flinds are just a shorter, stockier, smarter, and more ambitious sub-race of gnolls. I can't remember if gnolls still revere flinds and gladly accept them as leaders or not after their reintroduction in 3rd ed. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2014 : 13:00:14
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Are there any 2e (or even 3e) pictures of Flinds?
The only one I can recall was that 1e illustration, and that has 'tainted' my thinking ever since. Thanks for pointing that info out to me. 
I kinda liked the mane... mine aren't going to lose that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2014 : 14:06:36
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| Dragon #173 p77 and 3.5e Monster Manual III p62 after a quick search. Other instances of flind art are reproductions of the lame image that 'tainted' your opinion. There might be others but I'd require a more intensive search to find them. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2014 : 14:11:47
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Cool - they do indeed look more like gnolls then anthropomorphic lions. Thanks for the reference. (I'd still like to see some of the mane, back though - give them a bit of a 'Wolverine' vibe - Gnolls with Muttonchops). 
The flindbars lend some credence to my theories about Flinds originating in the East. I recall the Imaskari using them as canon-fodder troops, but that may have just been my own HB musings (its been so long since I worked on the eastern realms, I now forget exactly how much was canon and how much was supposition).
EDIT: Right after hitting 'post' I recalled that they were not used by the Imaskari (canon or otherwise) - I had theorized that the proto-Imaskari (Mujhuri) had come into conflict with the remnants of the ancient gnoll empire (now savage and decadent) and drove them out (or exterminated them) from the then-fertile Raurin Basin. That would help explain the large amount of gnolls in the Unapproachable East. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Nov 2014 14:16:07 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2014 : 15:42:32
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Crap. I missed this thread. Vercy Wood has a group of Gnolls. It is located East of Phlan. Let me know what more I can provide you. I put the lore in one of my Dungeon articles, and I know there was some tid-bits about it in the adventure BRJ and I designed (Monument of the Ancients; Dungeon #170).
Edit: Here's a quote for you about the area.
quote:
VERCY WOOD
Vercy Wood is an ancient forest that has undergone many changes over the years, mainly in the form of its inhabitants. Over the past 75 years or so, the forest has been predominately "owned" by a tribe of Gnolls that are rumored to be related to old servants of the once powerful Flind. In modern times they refer to themselves as the Brtualclaw Pack. In 1468 DR, a massive civil war broke out amongst the Gnoll tribe, one that lasted for several years. The source of the conflict revolved around a divide in the fundamental principles of the tribe. One side desired to embrace a more primeval stance when it came to neighboring societies-- electing to conduct raids and provocative actions that were meant to cause fear and establish a sphere of influence. The other side desired to be inclusive, desiring only to live amongst nature and strengthen their connection to primal spirits. In the end, the latter prevailed and the tribe is mostly unheard of unless provoked.
Besides the gnollish influence that resides within Vercy Wood, many exotic and common creatures can be found as well.
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Edited by - Matt James on 28 Nov 2014 15:48:26 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2014 : 16:32:18
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Oooh, a gnoll civil war fought in a forest in the moonsea area? Excellent reason for the losing parties to be wandering the area and harassing PC's. I'd give the victorious tribe a different name; something like the Tusk-Bow Pack. So far we have acouple of northern tribe names already:
Three-Claw
Hoar Fang
Ice-Worm
Burnt Fur
Brutal Claw
So this Vercy Wood is located on the edges of the Steppes of Thar along the Stojanow river? What type of forest is this? Mostly evergreens and pines on sandy hills I presume... with the Stojanow overflowing during wintertimes creating snowy floodplains for the occasional tough oaks, shadowtops and willows to root themselves in. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Gnolls of the North
