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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 23:48:57
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| Perhaps I've gotten off the wrong foot, here. Let's make sure we're using the same langauge, because I know people who will look at a bill, a javelin, and a pike and call them all a 'spear'. So what, in your opinion, is a spear? |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 00:12:37
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| I suppose it varies quite a bit, using RW examples of piercing and slashing weapons (such as the glaive, halberd and naginata) and not, for instance, more bludgeoning/piercing type weapons (such as the lucerne hammer or bec de Corbin), though often such weapons served dual purpouses. When you add in the element of races with differing attributes, the issue becomes muddy and absolute definitions of weapon properties difficult to define. So, yes I would define the javelin and pike as "spears", but not perhaps the aforementioned cavalry-breakers. And if a weapon that I would describe as a long-hafted sword, others define a short-handled spear are perfectly fine and remain germaine to the topic at hand. No worries. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 27 Oct 2014 01:04:09 |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 00:49:38
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To note, I mostly focused on this bit, rather than "Sword vs Spear"
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
By extension, what about the many and various polearms one encounters in D&D? Would elven spears tend towards the flexible/eastern approach, or be more in line with traditional high fantasy?
You would be correct in saying that the javelin and the pike are spears, they are just very specific spears. Javelins are for throwing, and pikes are insanely long halfted spears (18 feet long. Seriously.). The defining trait of a spear is that it is a polearm designed exclusively for thrusting/piercing. Slashing weapons, while still polearms, are not spears. Take the bill, for example. The lengthened blade at the end is for slashing, or hooking a passing rider, or hooking a shield.
At least, that's the accepted real-life definition. So when you ask me what an elven spear would be like, I'd argue that elves really wouldn't use anything I'd consider a spear. There are plenty of slashing AND stabbing polearms I'd say they would use, but something as unelegent as a pike wouldn't suite them in my opinion.
Weapons develop from three primary sources.
A) A domestic tool - Plenty of weapons have come from improvised farm equipment. Good example of these would be the bill, which was a long stick with a pruning knife tied to the end.
B) A hunting tool - Good example of this would be the bow, or the javelin. These developed out of a need for ambushing prey from a distance.
C) War - Most weapons ultimately come from here. There's no domestic origin for the lance or the sword.
Assuming high elven culture developed in isolation from humanity, which we know it did, their approach to weaponry would be removed from ours. Their extended lifespans would strongly indicate that they have no need for such improvised weaponry; they wouldn't have some uneducated peasantry with no ability to defend themselves. They have decades, centuries to pick up skills in a wide variety of sets. As a result, simple weapons which require little to no skill to use would also be beneath them. I remind you, high elves are defined by their arrogance, their grace, and their rather long life-spans (which provide a rather contrasting perspective to the world). The weaponry that elves would take with them and train with would reflect this, even with their personal arms. I do not see them using spears, on the battlefield or off.
Wood Elves, I believe, would take their weapons largely from the hunting sid. While this would include the spear, I would argue that they wouldn't use melee spears, they'd stick entirely to the javelin. As a hunting tool, the spear was largely cosigned to that role, except when hunting for megafauna such as the mammoth. As elves have always had a large connection to magic, and wood elves especially to nature, I do not feel that wood elves would be out on this massive tribal hunts for megafauna; they wouldn't invent the spear as a melee tool. I also do not really see wood elves favoring swords for that matter. Wood Elves strike me primarily as skirmishers. They don't like wading into melee combat. They want to stay back, using projectiles when possible.
TL;DR My answer to 'elven spears' is that I do not believe they really use what I define to be a 'spear', outside of javelins. Polearms, certainly. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 00:58:55
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I disagree with the OP assertion that swords have dominated Western military history.
To be sure, a sword is iconic. It has been associated with war since before the Bronze Age, soldiers would carry swords in battle well into the 20th century. Even today, swords often represent special ranks and honours, and they remain ubiquitous in military ceremonies.
But the ancient civilizations - Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Egypt - used spears and spear formations for most of their dirty work. Classical civilizations - like Greece and Rome - developed spears and spear-fighting units to a fine science. Medieval and Renaissance Europeans loved employing spear formations against anything their gunpowder toys couldn't blast. Numerous Generals and field commanders and even revolting peasants rediscovered the potency and versatility of spear, staff, and polearm tactics over the centuries. Spears gave footmen a fighting chance (even an advantage) over chariots, cavalry, and infantry. Every soldier and every warrior had a sword, a fine weapon within closed terrain, but the battles and battlefields were dominated by spears and poles (along with archery, gunpowder, siege machines). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Oct 2014 02:28:00 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 01:01:04
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Mind ye, I think a pair of elven spear masters fighting a duel could be quite entertaining. Wild elves might prefer spears.
Longswords seem like a more useful weapon in forested terrain, especially since they free up one hand for shield-use or spellcasting. They are the epic flowery weapons of epic flowery heroes, champions, and crusaders - perfect for elves.
Shortswords never struck me as appropriate for elves. These are stumpy, stocky, cheap and reliable weapons meant for fighting hard in close quarters. A weapon far better suited to half-trained militias and drunken dwarves.
D&D rules are not an accurate simulation of combat. There is strong evidence that slashing bladed weapons in general, and swords in particular, fared rather poorly against chain. Shortswords are more piercing weapons, and the largest 2H swords and axes were more about cleaving a lot of weight onto a fine edge.
Spears require a lot less training than swords. And they're much easier, faster, and cheaper to produce. For humans urged toward war this is significant. For elves with centuries of idle weaponplay, skillfully wielding a fine sword isn't an obstacle. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Oct 2014 02:38:10 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 02:34:15
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| I hunted, once, with a friend who used pit-bulls (customary in the southern US) to hunt wild pig. His preferred weapon (though a .44 was sometimes as useful, if you were a good shot) was the boar spear ( a relatively long-bladed short-handled spear) because once the boar was stuck, the hunter was able to control the distance from the impaled boar. Also, twisting the blade often severed additional blood-vessels maybe not cut in the initial thrust. Having seen the grisly trophies (namely, his best dog's severed head) left by an enraged, mortally wounded, bloodmad bull-pig, with sharp tusks as long as a handspan, I thought his weapon of choice a wise one. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 27 Oct 2014 02:47:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36900 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 02:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
From my readings of Japanese mythology, the naginata was often considered a woman's weapon. That is not to say that many male samurai did not wield it. Certainly it was devastatingly deadly enough.
From what I've read, it was originally a weapon for male samurai, but their focus later shifted to the sword. The naginata became favored by women, because the reach of it could negate the greater strength of an opponent. After some time passed, the naginata became associated with women.
I don't care about that, though. I still think it's pretty nifty. Naturally, I share the Western male fixation on the katana, but it's not the only nifty weapon from that corner of the world. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 02:43:12
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| Dual-wielding katana is only mildly awesome when not combined with a shuriken flurry. ftw. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 27 Oct 2014 02:45:11 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 03:05:09
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| Sorry Lyiat, I'm a touch too swayzee to respond to your latest post, but thanks for your insights. Will rsvp asap. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 13:21:53
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A spear is a very versatile weapon, on battlefields, in duels or (somewhat clear) hunting grounds. But it has a distinct disadvantage against shielded opponents.
In a straight up duel vs a spear wielder and a onehanded longswordsman I'd put my money on the spear wielder. But as soon as the swordsman picks up a large shield, the spear wielder is hosed.
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The Elves of Evermeet sourcebook does talk about small bladesong lodges on Evermeet (EoE, pg 110) that tend to deeply specialize in their chosen weapons, emphasizing several traditional styles of fighting. So schools of tribal spear fighting are actively conserved and blended into battlemagic arts and more recent martial arts in those lodges by bladesinger mentors. Some truly ancient weapons are passed around in those lodges, some with very specific uses and fighting styles developed around them.
Most of the greatest elven antique weapons are carried by 'first hilt' bladesingers, who have tremendous focus when wielding their favorite weapon. Some weapons are said to date back to the realm of Faerie/Tintageer or beyond, and house powerful enchantments only known to the wielders of that bladesinger lodge. The biggest bladesong lodge is the longsword one, but spears and staffs are popular too.
Elven magic spears tend to have singular purpose enchantments, like returning or bane. Spears tend to have an important place in elven culture, as they are seen as the weapons with wich they were to fend for themselves after their creation. My personal favorite is the Spear of Halama (EoE, pg 72.), which grants flight.
The magic blade antiques tend have spell-storing or -warding abilities. These types of blade tend to be versatile, with a slight focus on divination, crowd control or damaging magic. Blades usually have a name and recorded history, meticulously scribed and searched for by aspiring members of bladesinger lodges.
I need to mull over what I would prefer in a duel of an enchanted spear vs enchanted sword when bladesingers are in the equasion. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 16:39:01
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I think Gygax included all those polearm weapon in the earlier editions for a reason. Different designs in spears are likely to have evolved on Toril's battlefields and hunting grounds too.
Boarspears or Ranseurs would be useful in hunting or fending of megafauna like large magical beasts, dire animals en giant vermin, and will have led to entrapping fighting styles, that focus on spiking beasts or foes into surfaces, keeping them at a relative safe distance with the crossbar sections. True masters of this style are experts at trapping, paralyzing or stunning large foes.
To deal with evolved battlefield conditions spears need to find answers to shield and bladed foes, so fencing spears are usually brought to bear then. Fencing spears would lead to Winged spear designs such as the Spetum and Partisan, with protrusions on or under the spearblade designed to close lines against swordstabs or catch and redirect slashes. The Spetum (the larger polearm version) has so much cutting power a quick forward thrust is capable of outright severing humansized limbs with the wide and sharp sideblades. Martial experts of this polearm can make unbalancing blows at unpridicatable angles with the blunt (back)sides of the sideblades while holding ground with thrusts and occasional cuts.
Imrpoved armor or tough scales have led to the developement of awl pikes, that sacrifice all cutting ability for a hardened and lengthened spike. Most hafts were reinforced to aid in defensive blocks to reach the enemy with a powerful twohanded thrusting charge. They more easily defeat plate, though hide or scale (armor) as a result. Masters of this polearm are the 'tincan openers' of their time.
These are a couple of specialized spears I see bladesingers or officers using in elven armies. The most heavy infantry will be wielding standard spears or longswords and shields, but some specialized infantry armies have a contigent of expert polearm users among them, depending on the common foe. Light infantry would have longbows and either shortsword/rapier and buckler or a longsword.
Some would say both the dwarven urgosh and the gnoomish hooked hammer are variant spear designs, optimally making use of the spear as a shafted (double) weapon. Experts of this style blend entrapping styles of spears with chopping and percussive blows of top heavy weapons. A dwarfs and gnomes low center of grafity would allow him to swing the axe or hammer head in deadly undercuts at deceptively long reach.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36900 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 17:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I think Gygax included all those polearm weapon in the earlier editions for a reason. Different designs in spears are likely to have evolved on Toril's battlefields and hunting grounds too.
I've always thought it was just the legacy of the game's origins. D&D started as an outgrowth of medieval miniatures combat games, which means that a lot of stuff was basically hardwired in at the beginning.
I don't think I've ever heard a single player talk about using a glaive-guisarme or a Lucern hammer. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 19:02:47
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Historically speaking yes. Evidenced as it was far, far, far more prevalent on the battlefield than swords, which were almost never used as primary weapons.
I have read a couple of times that modern day bayonets are essentially evolved spears, thus it's still the prevalent melee weapon on the battlefield in the 20th and 21st century |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 19:47:11
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I think it depends on what you mean by "powerful".
In physics terms, power is the ability to exert a force across a distance per a unit of time.
More force in the same time = more power.
Same force in less time = MO' POWAH!
A spear would usually be bigger and more massive than any sword. So this means that once you got it moving, it would build up a lot of inertia and momentum and do a lot of damage to whatever it hit. It would more likely go right through something and keep right on going, than most swords, because of that extra heft.
The problem is that all that extra mass is harder to get moving in the first place. And that depends on the muscular strength and explosive power of the wielder.
A spear in the arms of a halfling would not likely be all that powerful, because it just couldn't get moving all that quickly.
But a smaller, lighter weapon that could be whipped around very fast? (Think Bruce Lee's fists.) Now, that could probably qualify as comparably powerful to a spear in a mid-size person's grasp. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 20:30:31
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Like the OP states, there's no real "right" answer and I think that's largely due to the fact that each weapon shines in different ways with different circumstances. I think the spear is a more widely useful weapon overall for a number of reasons:
• They're easier to use and to train non-military people with.
• They're easier to make. A smith can probably hammer out a dozen spear tips in the time it takes to forge a sword. And the rest is just a shaven wooden pole.
• They're more versatile. You can use it with a shield, two-handed, and you can throw it. People more proficient with these weapons often use the butt-end as a staff and can swing it like a club. AND they're good at disrupting advances like when the opposition charges.
• Spartans use them primarily. Enough said.
As for elves, I can easily see them using Spears and they even received some good treatment for their use via Feats and the like in 4E. I think the spear combined with elven/eladrin finesse and perfection is a thing of death and beauty. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 22:30:23
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Another detail ...
Spearmen dont typically fight one-on-one vs sword-wielding infantry when they can avoid it. They are best employed in tight formations, ideally in multiple layers behind a hefty front line of stout shield-bearers.
Swordsmen are all about one-on-one combat, small group tactics, and loose formations.
Elves are certainly capable of miilitary discipline, efficient killing, and high strategy. But they dont seem the right sorts to prefer phalanxes and shield walls. They do seem the sorts who will stride into the chaos of battle and flow from kill to kill. Longswords are probably a better weapon choice than cumbersome long sticks for their individual-merit philosophy of combat. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 23:05:12
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Well for what is is worth, it appears swords grew out of the hunting tool of the knife. They just grew bigger and the hunted became other fighter. The Roman blade was not all that long, but with shield was able to defeat pike formations.
Not all sword fights were one on one type battle. Of course over their 1,000 years they used javelins as part of standard equipment as well.
The best weapon or collection of weapons is what wins the battles and in the end the war. As tactics change the effective weapons to win have to adjust or change. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 11:25:08
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| Personally while I can imagine elves using spear but not the usual pikes and short spears, I feel they would prefer something more versatile like the Naginata I have to agree with Ayrik that most of them would probably opt for the sword. Its a more effective weapon in one on one combat and elves are almost always outnumbered when they go to war, so it makes sense for them to use a weapon that maximize their innate advantages of skill and dexterity. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4212 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 16:59:42
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A sword is a long bladed spear on a short haft... |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 17:11:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A sword is a long bladed spear on a short haft...
And that's why a spear was more widely used by armies: more wood and less - expensive, harder to forge - metal. |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 07:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I really like Prince Nuada's spear from Hellboy 2 that extended from a shortspear to a full-sized, 6 footish weapon. I'm aware that many pikes were much longer, but for the single warrior not massed in formation, this seems to be about the limit of the effective size of a personal melee weapon
Prince Nuada is THE BADASS!!!
there is a villian leading the Eldreth Velthuura (elf supermcists) and my personal nemesis based on him, except he has a moonsword that is very long but he still fights with a lot of finesse with it.
really an inspiration for anyone looking for an Elfen villian. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 07:41:22
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i would think that Elves would favor the spear to take advantage of their long limbs and quick responses and movements. elven units have good team cohesion so they might pull of a badass pike formation. thouhg i think the spear would be more like a glaive then a pike or even halbred.
in a one on one a spear is not less efective then a sword though, the biggest advantage of a sword is that it is easy to wrestle with it. spear a bit less.
i always viewed Elves as Greeck in mindset, espically since the Fey wild is basicly filled with greeck mythological creatures. the elves also are passionate and love adventure, a trait of the ancient greecks. they love games - the Olympia, mostly they love freedom and are prefer individualism.
i can easily see the elves with Greek like attributes, and even with greek styled weapon fighting. |
Knowledge is Power |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 08:36:46
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Regarding the 'default' fighting style of elves in the Realms, its a bit of a mixed bag as far as sources go. On the one hand, you have the free-flowing, individualistic (chaotic?) swordplay of bladesingers seen in the defense of Myth Drannor in The Herald.
Given the elven temperament, this would seem a natural fighting style, and it would be hard to visualize elves standing in densely-packed ranks or phalanxes with spears.
On the other hand, we saw Evereskan elves fighting the phaerimm in ranks (with spears) in the RotAW trilogy. Added to this, in some of the battle scenes in the Lord of the Rings movies, there were disciplined ranks of elves fighting with what look like a kind of glaive.
So I guess it depends on the situation, and on the type of elven troops. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 12:09:41
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| Gil-galad fought Sauron with a spear, so it's not just the movies. |
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Is the spear more powerful than the sword?
