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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 22:18:45
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Way back in 2e the green dragon was described as having a breath weapon of deadly chlorine gas. Later editions changed this to an acidic vapor. I prefer the former, but a question niggles me. Would the ability to negate annoying habits like breathing (such as with a Necklace of Adaptation) make one immune to the effects of the aforementioned toxic gas or would the toxin be absorbed through the skin? I'm no chemist and can't make sense of the Chlorine gas wiki entry. I dislike bringing rw issues such as this into a game that is meant to be fun, but in this case my curiosity wins. Does anybody know for sure how I should rule this? The question arises after I had a great idea for a Forestlord Elf Ranger/Ninja (PF Jade Regent AP). The Dragonic Heritage feat allows dragonblooded character to take the Breath Weapon feat. I'm not looking for that, rather I would like to grant said character immunity from breath weapon/chlorine gas in order for him to facilitate the use of chlorine gas (Dragonbreath) bombs instead of your standard smokebomb/flashbang ninja grenade. Thoughts?
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 25 Sep 2014 22:39:10
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 22:25:21
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I favor the chlorine gas breath weapon, and would rule that not needing to breathe would render one immune to it (absent any written official content to the contrary, of course).
The downside of this, though, is that it makes green dragon attacks survivable if you can hold your breath. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Sep 2014 22:26:12 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 22:33:06
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| I am inclined to agree with you, Wooly, but that seems far too simple. Perhaps the dragon's cloud of death, as it were, was not straight Cl, but a compound that could also be absorbed through the skin as well, making it far more dangerous. Again, I dislike rw explanations, but aren't the eyes mucous membranes as well? That could be a vector through which the toxin enters the blood stream? Lacking any knowledge of the properties of Cl gas, I just don't know. I do know not to mix bleach and ammonia and if you should see green vapor, vacate the area. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 25 Sep 2014 22:58:55 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 23:01:01
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Chlorine in pools still irritates eyes and the interior of noses, even though you're not breathing it. If you swallow it, pool water irritates your throat -- or at least it would if there was too much chlorine in it. And 2e green dragon breath would definitely be too much chlorine.
A necklace of adaptation could enable you to adapt entirely to the conditions within the cloud, but simply holding your breath wouldn't protect against the damage to your eyes and nose. Sure, the chlorine in a pool isn't enough to cause lasting damage... though it often made my sight blurry and made me sensitive to light. Dragon breath is a different ballgame, though.
Given that asphyxiation is a separate effect from hp damage, I think holding your breath should protect you from choking on a green dragon's breath but it doesn't negate the hp damage. This should make sense because if you have juvenile and adult green dragons breathe in your face you don't "choke harder" on the older dragon's breath. You either choke or you don't.
So if I were the DM, I would rule that green dragon breath contains a mix of gases --perhaps chiefly the one we call chlorine on Earth-- which causes X dice of hit point damage depending on the age category of the dragon. Damage is caused by skin contact/exposure; it's not necessary to breathe it.
Glancing at the Draconic Heritage feat, it appears you need a level of Sorcerer first, and it gives you the Dragonblood subtype... you don't have to already be dragonblooded. But that's not what you're looking for anyway right?
It does seem reasonable that a feat could be written which would grant immunity from a particular type of dragon breath, if it does require the character to already be a dragonblood. Green half-dragons already have this quality, so it doesn't seem like a hugely unbalancing idea.
Lastly, the 1e Oriental Adventures had eggshell grenades, iirc, which featured various sorts of damage. Might be hard to find, if you don't already have it, and DMs might want to change/rebalance them, but I just figured I'd mention it.
(Edit: 1000th post woohoo!) |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 25 Sep 2014 23:02:23 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 23:11:18
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Indeed. I had simply thought that with the dragonblooded sub-type granted by the Forestlord Elf it would not be too much of a stretch to rewrite a few Feats to conform to my needs. The Draconic Aura feat, for example, would be rewritten as Dragonfear, which again seems to be pre-3e.
Congrats on the G. Your input here is invaluable. Thanks to you and all Scribes that make this place such an indispensible resource |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 25 Sep 2014 23:17:48 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 23:44:47
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Here are the <Centers for Disease Control> and <National Institutes for Health> articles on chlorine.
Chlorine is an irritant to all tissue that it touches, including skin, mouth, throat, and eyes--not just the lungs.
When it comes into contact with water (such as within the mucus membrane insides your GI tract or respiratory tract), it reacts to release hydrochloric acid, which is the stuff that your stomach uses to dissolve food. (This may be a convenient retcon to explain the lore's change in identification of a green dragon's breath weapon--it's actually chlorine, but reaction with water in a person's body yields HCl acid as a byproduct.) This can introduce acidic exposure to body tissue (irritation, burns similar to frostbite, or even outright necrosis), as well as dose the blood.
GI tract exposure can lead to nausea or bloody excretions.
Blood dosing can cause severe drops in one's blood pressure.
So even if you don't breathe it, it still damages whatever it touches. And the wetter that thing is, the more damage it does.
I think that defensive immunities should be specifically tailored to exact offensive effects, less you risk overpowering your characters. Blanket immunities are kinda lazy. You should have to work harder at combatting your enemies than simply acquiring an ever-too-convenient immunity to everything. (I am reminded of Star Trek TV episodes where the Enterprise was repeatedly exposed to various sundry forms of energy, and in the last 5 minutes some member of the crew would always tritely flip a switch that served as a compensator for whatever that ailed them. This got me to wondering where the "Klingon Compensator" button/switch was!)
So I would say to let your players think they're the cat's meow for acquiring the ability to not breathe, but them shock them with topical & internal burns from the toxic chemical that still afflicts them, anyway. Make them earn immunity from chlorine burns separately from the lack of a need to breathe. Have them more fully understand the threats, and come up with more comprehensive solutions thereto. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 23:55:46
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| Thanks, BEAST. I can use alot of that without getting too technical and breaking down teh suspension of disbelief |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 12:25:48
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
FYI, Sage Advice in Dragon #144 clarifies that the green dragon's breath weapon takes effect on contact; it was in response to a question about holding one's breath to avoid the effects of gas.
Jeff
Good call. Page 7:
quote:
Can a character hold his breath and avoid the effects of gases?
Yes, it, is possible for a character who suspects or detects poisonous gas before having to make a saving throw against it to hold his breath and avoid the effects of most gases. Some gases, such as green dragon breath, take effect on contact and cannot be avoided simply by holding one’s breath. Rules for characters holding their breaths are given in the Dungeoneer’s Survival Guide, page 12.
So my commentary was incorrect.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2014 12:27:09 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 17:33:36
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A savvy group of PCs may still find a relatively easy way to negate the effects of the Green Dragon's breath weapon.
Not needing to breathe certainly helps. Going down the thought path, if they couple it with acid resist/immunity, how would you rule?
Another savvy player also may try a Wind Wall which in the description states it defeats "...most gaseous breath weapons."
Being a long-time study of tactics and strategy, these sort of discussions fascinate me. Threat - Counter - Threat Tactic Change - Evolved Threat - Evolved Counter, repeat ad nauseam.
Good Hunting! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 20:07:13
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I'd allow a wind wall to, at the very least, mitigate the damage -- I'm not sure I'd allow it to totally escape the damage. After all, the dragon is going to be projecting that gas out with some force, and it would take a serious amount of wind to entirely counteract that.
If a PC could arrange to not have any exposed skin (or eyes), then that would work -- but that's a pretty tall order, in anything other than a modern hazmat suit or spacesuit, or a sci-fi set of powered armor. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 20:30:56
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I would classify green dragon breath as acid, based on (1) previous editions' specification of chlorine and BEAST's excellent illumination of the hydrochloric acid thing, and (2) what would be a better descriptor than acid?
Therefore, for me immunity to acid damage would provide immunity from the damage of green dragon breath. Acid damage reduction would reduce the damage appropriately.
If the description allows for exceptions (ie, most but not all breath weapons) then I would make dragon breath one of the exceptions. That SRD link is 3e I'm guessing? The 5e description of wind wall says nothing about breath weapons, so that's less clear. However it says arrows and other ordinary projectiles are deflected, but boulders and siege engines are unaffected. I would lean toward allowing the 5e wind wall to disperse the dragon's breath sufficiently to neutralize the hp damage.
Distance between the wall and the dragon's mouth should matter... if it's close, the force of a large dragon's exhalation is more likely to push through the wind wall, but if it's far away (for example, more than half the length of the cone-shaped blast) then the wall should disperse more/all of the breath.
Also, wind wall is a low-ish level spell, and one that might pop readily into many casters' minds as an effective shield from a breath weapon, so any dragon who has dealt with spellcasters before (or watched/heard of magical confrontations with other dragons) will be familiar with it. Even without prior experience, many dragons will be smart enough to recognize it as a spell and simply move itself to a position where it doesn't feel the wind blowing on it and therefore the wall won't help the PCs.
Just my take on it. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 23:02:48
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@Xaeyruudh - You are correct in your assumption of the SRD link. It is tuned toward 3.5E. For the sake of continuity, we never changed the edition basis of our campaign despite the release of subsequent editions. Not trying to change editions in mid-campaign conveniently eliminated any need to convert anything.
In doing some subsequent reading on the reactivity of Chlorine Gas (darn myself for paying attention in chemistry class) I also stumbled across this link Poison Gas from Wikipedia which conveniently has a section on Chlorine and counter-measures for chlorine gas attacks.
WRT the description of Wind Wall, it is curious to note that it does specify the caster can shape the wall in any continuous pattern on the floor in order to create cylindrical or square enclosures. Obviously, the dragon could push its body through the wall if the enclosed area were large enough (bigger than a very tight circle around a PC) and negate the effects.
Ultimately, I agree with Wooly. I would rule that assuming no other protections and in an otherwise "open" area, that I'd allow it to reduce the effect of the breath weapon but not negate it. I'd back this decision with data that is cited in the above link since chlorine tends to "settle" and the spell description specifically states cylindrical or square, not spherical or cubed. The gas may be deflected upward, allowing the PC to avoid most damage, but some would settle back into the Wind Walled area since the spell doesn't provide "overhead cover". Again, assuming no need to breathe and the PCs equipped to face a Green Dragon, this remaining damage should be easily resisted.
That said, I was refreshing my memory on the reactivity because I wanted to see how equipment would react to being immersed in Chlorine Gas. Every source cites it as "highly reactive" with powerful oxidizing, bleaching, and disinfecting properties. This lends another perspective on how it may cause havoc with a party. Granted, most resists include possessions but in the case of just not needing to breathe, It would be interesting to see the look on the party's collective faces when they charge in, get bathed in gas, and their armor and weapons corrode into Iron Chloride. In the words of Brave Sir Robin....."RETREAT!"
Good Hunting! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 01:44:09
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Dragonbreath is more than just chemistry. Dragons are fantastic and magical, so too are their breath weapons.
Meaning that green dragons breath more than just chlorine, or just poison, or just acid (whichever it may be). They breath a magical substance which might contain chlorine or resemble chlorine but is in practice something more symbolic. The chlorine chemistry we understand might be a suitable metaphor, but it is not likely to be the actual mechanism which kills a green dragons victims. Much the same as the biology we understand cannot produce a massive magic-using death-breathing flying green reptile. Remember that the physics of the Realms is slightly different from our own (and thats before one considers any of the countless quirks and conditions imposed by deities, even draconic deities) - you basically have free license to explain (or handwave) it any way you like because it evidently just works. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 02:08:53
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Lots of good points in this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Not trying to change editions in mid-campaign conveniently eliminated any need to convert anything.
Makes good sense. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Granted, most resists include possessions but in the case of just not needing to breathe, It would be interesting to see the look on the party's collective faces when they charge in, get bathed in gas, and their armor and weapons corrode into Iron Chloride. In the words of Brave Sir Robin....."RETREAT!"
This is an awesome image. 
I would require separate item saves in cases of PCs bathed in dragon breath of any variety. Maybe I'm just a mean DM, I dunno, but there are (many) times when items automatically making/failing saves according to the PCs' saves doesn't make sense and isn't fun from a storytelling perspective. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 05:28:50
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There is also merit - in the context of fun and storyline perspective - in showing brash PCs that they cannot hide behind rules and simply charge into a green dragons lair without suffering any repercussions.
Paladin: Honest villagers! I have come to slay the dragon and release you from your oppression!
Surly villager: Not our dragon! Begone, stuff yer noisy god and glowy sword into yer own business. Leave Greeny alone.
Surly villager #2: Aye, ye kinna kill our drac. Not whens the Mayor finally has a chance to win a game o chess against her.
Paladin: But ... by Lathanders Blessed Radiance, I can stop the vicious cycle of sacrifice and tribute, I can free you from servitude!
Surly villager #4 (cant count): Pah! The tribute aint much. And we been doing real prosperous since Greeny taught us crop rotation, irrigation, horticulture. We grow the best tulips in Faerun!
Surly villager #2: And the bestest grapes in our new vineyard. Greeny flies em in straight from Zakhara. Got some snooty half-elf from Waterdeep pays 50 silvers per bottle! If ye kills Greeny ye just makes it easier fer some fat pompous Baron ta come tax it all away so we gets nothing but back-breaking work and drunken soldiers.
Surly villager #4: Besides, we only send her the real outcast freaks and witches fer sacrifices. Theres good reasons theyre still virgins, yknow.
Paladin: Ahem *splutter* um ... You dont grow, uh, cabbages and potatoes and carrots?
Surly villager #4: Why work hard as an ogre to grow fifteen plots of cabbage what sells at half a copper thumb per cartload when one greenhouse fulla tulips is worth three silvers each bulb?
Surly villager #1: Idiot paladin, go way! We got magical swords Greeny gave us to protect ourselves and her investment gainst interloping mucks like ye! And she trained me own neice ta be a powerful-like transmuter, yer wise to be off afore we get ugly on ya. And afore Greeny notices, she likes ta scry on our gates. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Sep 2014 05:41:01 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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baughb
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 16:48:06
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FWIW, blacks spit acid. That means greens don't. It's just simple metaphysics. Or a gamism. Or something....
The big question to ask is why does it matter. If the green's breath weapon is also acid, there's redundancy with the black. If it's described as simply a poison gas, dwarves have additional resistance. And that's okay.
I guess I choose not to overthink it. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 19:04:31
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Brass and gold dragons both breathe fire. Redundancy isn't an issue.
In the 3.5 MM, the damage type is clearly stated to be acid for both black and green dragons' breath weapons. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 19:46:16
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The 2E Draconomicon (not to be confused with subsequent and inferior Draconomicons) presented rules for variant, rogue, and hybrid dragons.
A green/black hybrid, for example, might have glossy blackish scales which glint with shifting hints of green in the light. Or perhaps appear to be a green dragon with dark-tipped foreclaws and wingtips. The halfbred nature might not be apparent to PCs but it would be immediately obvious to any dragon. Breath weapon might be, say, a spray of chlorine acid which instantly corrodes whatever it touches then produces a greenish cloud of poisonous fumes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 03:12:05
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I'm not sure about those types of hybrids. Seems to me it would, for use of a better word, muddy the dragon ''bloodlines.'' What, for example, would be the product of a union of, say, a black/green hybrid and, however unlikely, a red/gold?
I do recall an adventure from the first Dungeon Annual that featured a Silver/Mist hybrid, but that only confuses the situation more I'd think. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 07 Oct 2014 03:18:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 04:00:16
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| The 2E, FR-specific (and original!) Draconomicon discussed hybrid dragons and their breath weapons. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 04:09:49
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| Ayrik mentioned that. Yeah, but if you've got all these hybrids flying around humping anything with bad breath, after millenia, would there be any more ''true'' colors? I wonder about the dragon mentality of such pairings. Would such half-breeds be regarded as abomination, or only curiosity? I'm not sure either of ''dragon-love,'' what is the drive between these inter-racial/species progeny? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 07 Oct 2014 04:35:29 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 23:04:08
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An important consideration about hybrid/variant/rogue dragons is that they face great intolerance and hostility - lets call it racism - by normal, comparatively common, mainstream dragons.
Consequently, those who survive tend to be exceptionally capable individuals, even by draconic standards. A solitary young adult turquiose/teal/cyan dragon capable of defending its special niche against belligerent greens and blues can be considered a particularly dangerous opponent. Such individuals are socially unlikely to breed (assuming theyre not sterile anyhow), much less with a partner who is also some sort of hybrid, and almost certainly never with dragons of an opposing clade, a gold/red isnt impossible but may simply never exist. |
[/Ayrik] |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 08:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Brass and gold dragons both breathe fire. Redundancy isn't an issue.
In the 3.5 MM, the damage type is clearly stated to be acid for both black and green dragons' breath weapons.
I like the idea that you need different protection from different chromatic breath weapons. In my Realms, I would go back to the old 1E view that green dragons breathed out poison gas, and that accordingly, resistance to poison was needed to counteract it, not acid. But hey, I kind of cherrypick what I like from all the editions.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 08:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by George KrashosI like the idea that you need different protection from different chromatic breath weapons. In my Realms, I would go back to the old 1E view that green dragons breathed out poison gas, and that accordingly, resistance to poison was needed to counteract it, not acid. But hey, I kind of cherrypick what I like from all the editions.
-- George Krashos
4E went back to poison as the damage type and I think 5E has done the same.
3.xE only went with acid because poison causes ability score damage in 3.xE, not hit point damage. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Green Dragon Breath Weapon
