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Vehiron
Acolyte
8 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 11:55:08
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Greetings and Salutations!
I am preparing a campaign for my players, and although I do not consider myself as a stranger to the wonderful Forgotten Realms setting, I find myself lacking some answers regarding several questions that I consider as a serious threat if they would remain unanswered, to the success of building the campaign.
First, I shall take the freedom to elaborate on my preferences as a DM, for any helpful scribes here who would wish to enlighten me in this peculiar endeavor.
I am strongly a canon/RAW person, meaning that as long as I can, and as far as I am able I do not like to twist or change official materials and sources. Naturally, when player characters have an effect on their surroundings, and as they might have a serious impact on the world itself at higher levels, this is inevitable, but I prefer to stay on the right track and course.However extending and/or elaborating on canon is not only fine, but it is considered as enriching for my humble self.
My first question, however, does not seem to be able to get answered basing upon my surely lacking knowledge of the Realms.
The campaign will be centered around anti-Lolthite lawful evil drow characters, who preferably will be able to establish a city/cultural center of drow on the long run, collecting like-minded dark elves under their banner. I will not go into neither psychological nor ideological grounding for now (unless needed, in which case I will do so happily), but approaching to the problem that seems to have no satisfying solution yet.
They have no deity to worship.
At least not within the following limits. The Deity in question should:
-be lawful evil (preferably with a greater emphasis on law than evil, so a Wee-Jas-like neutral entity could still have a go,but „refined” evil is fine too)
-be able to serve as a „cultural glue” for the drow, so no human deity, no „young upstart” deity or no deity that is an exclusive patron of a race or culture is a valid option (unless the patron of a truly mighty/magnificent race not widely known or commonly worshipped, who can „work well together” with the drow, like a dragon deity(Tiamat is a no go)
-have an agenda that supersedes the simplest evil clichés like „we stand against good” (even if a „we stand against chaos” option could be preferable here), with other words, not a sole reactionist opposed to other beliefs, alignments and deities,(besides the obvious Anti-Lolth tendencies, but those do not need to manifest in the deity itself), but a deity having an own agenda, be that something mythic/mystic that can connect well with the drow (like magic), or more practical and mundane in nature , someone who can be analogous with the „ever striving nature” of the drow in some ways. Perhaps a deity that represents some ideal. Might even be a deity who does not care much about her followers, but represents a direction/elevation, a pinnacle that is worth to be respected.
-not be a devil, or any kind of patron that has a strong connection to the infernal realms, or a deity that propagates „inferior” physical changes or metamorphosis (like slimes/oozes/lycanthropes).
I sadly have not been successful in finding a fully canon deity that would fit those requirements. If any of the wise sages here could propose one, I should be most thankful.
Meanwhile, I have been pondering on several options:
-A non-Forgotten Realms deity could contact, or be contacted by the drow, from another „setting of the World Tree cosmology”. This is not a preferable option at all, but even if it would be, I would be in dire need for methods to do so, and to successfully integrate an event like that via game mechanics to the campaign.
-A vestige (Tome of Magic) could be contacted and through an intriguing set of events and adventures, elevated to become a drow deity. This is a much more preferable option, unless vestiges would not be canon in the Realms (I have no idea about that sadly, would appreciate some insight), where I would still need methods and suggestions on game mechanics how that could work in the setting, without demolishing the canon.
-Vandria Gilmadrith (the „last remaining” child of Corellon and Araushnee) could be, could have been or could become twisted by certain events and acts as to become a drow deity. As I understand, her place in the FR canon is dubious and small enough to be modified, without rocking the boat too hard. Insights on this option would be much appreciated as well.
-Resurrecting either Elistraee or Vhaeraun (perhaps both in a horrific ritual that would „combine” the two into a new single deity), using a vessel that would modify their alignment and serve as „fuel” (summoning their vestiges into a drow Bhaalspawn, or forcing a Demigod like Siamorphe into their dead body etc.) While I could certainly appreciate a newly empowered and vengeful deity who returns to say hello to Lolth, with a new mindset representing the experiences and horror/bitter realizations and „enlightenment” caused by their deaths (with Eilistraee becoming darker and more focused, while Vhaeraun becoming more straightforward and tyrannical), there are the obvious canon issues, besides the fact that this would certainly involve an epic campaign, and some of the Player Characters will be needing a source for divine magic way before reaching that level.
I much appreciated this thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10174
in connection with this option, and feel the need to take the freedom and thank all the wise contributors to its course, it was most inspiring and helpful
-Breathing life into a deity that exists only in myths or at the verge of canon, like Tiamat’s sister Vorel, the creator of orange, purple and yellow dragons. Here, throwing in the purple dragons of dragon magazine/dragon compendium (whose alignment, intentions and way of thinking is quite analogous in almost every way to that of the party) into the brewing pot, as „secret deeper dwelling variations” of the more common deep dragons, creatures who could lead the characters to their slumbering/trapped/dying etc goddess could provide nice hooks, unfortunately the canon and encounter level issues mark this option as dubious too.
Any insights on any of the issues regarding the problem would be much appreciated.
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Edited by - Vehiron on 24 Sep 2014 11:56:43
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 12:36:11
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First off, I would point out that the only gamers who are really supposed to follow FR canon are game designers. Individual DMs should use what the like, change what they want, and throw out what they don't like.
That said, looking at canon I don't think there is a god that exactly fits the bill as you've defined it.
As noted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_deities
There are some additional members of the Seldarine who were proposed in articles in Dragon #155, #236, and #251.
None of them seem appropriate to what you're looking for, but in Dragon #236 I note that Araleth Letheranil has a "spider bite" from Lolth. One could imagine a backstory where that poison slowly turns him from CG to LE, but leaves him still implacably opposed to Lolth. HIs portfolio could slowly turn from Light/Starlight/Twilight to Darkness.
Vestiges certainly could appear in the Realms. I would build consider building one off the "Dark Disaster" (referenced Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves) when the drow occupied the Elven Court.
There are lots of gods who have taken on an "aspect" that is then venerated by another race. I would look at LE gods that do fit the bill for what you want.
For example, I would think that GOD_NAME could have an interesting story as a LE sister of Araushnee, who was killed by Araushne ages ago (poisoned by her spider bite).
After millennia of death, GOD_NAME appears to be "waking up."GOD_NAME is finally shaking off the poison and "waking up", but she's still wracked by pain from Araushnee's poison. A big part of GOD_NAME's followers philosophy is learning to ignore the pain of everyday life. (Not eliminate it, but tolerate it.) This could be why these drow force themselves to live on the surface, endure prejudice, etc. all to make themselves stronger and better position them for revenge against the Spider Queen.
In truth, GOD_NAME is an aspect of Loviatar, who is trying to expand her worshipers by taking on GOD_NAME's guise to gain worshipers among the drow.
--Eric
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1527 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 15:22:40
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| Bane could work, if you're willing to use him as a deity imposing the harsh law needed for stability in the mad, chaotic lives of the drow. You could play up his lawful aspects instead of his Evil Overlord side, emphasizing that Bane's stern authority and meritocratic system of adminstration are things that could unite the drow into a cohesive race instead of being at the beck and call of a mad demon goddess. |
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Vehiron
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 06:39:05
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Thank you for your kind answers.
Indeed , as I have stated before I like to stay with canon as long as possible, but that does not mean that I only deal in it. Once all options are exhausted, I have no qualms about changing things "for the better" as an expansion.
LordofBones
An entity like Bane could work with a few relevant changes, unfortunately he fulfills several of the "no go limitations", thus could not be adapted without serious and global changes to the setting. A most inspiring (and you might forgive me if I say valid) description on the effects he could have on the drow though, I appreciate your style of thought, Sir.
ericlboyd
I am most intrigued by your suggestions, I will ponder the matter further and with your kind permission get back to you with questions regarding crude details and mechanics.
dazzlerdal
My mistake, allow me to ellaborate. The campaign is set in the 1370's, with the Deep Wastes functioning as the main area and center of the campaign, hopefully involving the events in Maerimydra (City of the Spider Queen) and the Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land modules.
Naturally the drow are mainly and mostly chaotic, but I beg to differ on this trait being genetic in nature, I attribute it more to the machinations, whims and intentions of the spider queen to keep them fractured and disorganized enough for her to be able to control them, and pit them against each other with ease. So any attempt in the hopes of successfully opposing her would have to involve changes in approach (as we have seen with the followers of Eilistraee, with her followers "turning good despite their natural predilections"), otherwise the same old patterns would simply emerge. Considering drow to turn to become of the exact opposite alignment than their chaotic good elf cousins does not seem out of place, especially not since I believe that drow are as much inclined towards law as they are towards chaos (living in highly civilized city states, following the strict orders of an although chaos fueled, but highly tyrannical caste system where noble houses and church ranks/power are a ruling elite, where all members of the society strive for advancing their positions, power base and rank in the system etc).There are even drow exclusive prc-s that can only be entered as lawful evil (none other for example as the dread fangs of lolth), and enough middle to high ranking npc-s in the rulebooks to support the claim. So while I naturally and respectfully agree with you on the matter that most drow currently are chaotic, I see no particular hindrances about rebels standing up against the ways of the Spider Queen to be or become lawful, although it can safely be assumed that rebels like that will not make up the majority of their society, unless "it works"  |
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 18:41:38
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Since you care about canon, I have to repeat what dazzlerdal said about the drow being interbred with the Demon Wendonai. Their chaotic nature is genetic, according to canon.
I think your best bet, despite your restrictions, is going to be Bane or a devil lord like Asmodeus. Lolth started as a Demon Queen, it's only fitting that she should be opposed by a devil. |
"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 19:59:20
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Do demons have genes? Is the way how ''breeding with a demon'' work even detailed in canon? Outsiders don't even have actual bodies AFAIK (they have physical manifestations on the prime), they are ''living beliefs'', beings of magic. I think that the side-results of breeding with them is mainly due to said magic, which can be overcome and isn't something physiological/innate (as many drow choosing different paths other than chaotic evil and succeeding in living just fine shows).
I mean, the new edition PHB even says that mixed blood doesn't affect tieflings' personalities to any great degree, why should things be different for drow, who have a much lesser bond with Wendonai (considering that the interbreeding happened millennia before the current date, and that the demon taint must therefore be very diluted at this point).
I think that having the drow being both cause and victims of their situation, their behaviour hugely influenced by brainwashing, indoctrination and context rather than ''evil because physiology'', makes for more interesting stories and games. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Sep 2014 20:06:34 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 20:23:19
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Well, Leraje is a vestige that could work well, being connected to elves, and could be resurrected as a kind of LN deity.
Malkizid, while a fiend(complicated stuff, he's a fallen solar, who became an Archdevil, and now becomes somewhat like an Yugoloth/Daemon), is said to be possibly the source of drow becoming lawful, especialy LE. Maybe you could have him partialy redeemed/risen, becoming a more neutral being(on the good-evil axis). Also, while Wee Jas resides in Archeon, she's most of the time purely LN. Her getting LE tendencies, was because of her grieving after Mystra's death during the Time of Troubles, and inability to bond with Midnight, and accept her as Mystra's replacement. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 20:39:10
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I mentioned it merely as a means to explain why all drow society seems to be Chaotic.
Lolth wanted her revenge on Corellon and it looks like she planned the downfall of the Illythiir for a long time. By using demons to breed with drow she made sure that they could never escape her clutches.
You are right about demons probably not having genetics, but in DnD things are a lot more complicated than mere genetics, its all about the soul, and a demon corrupting the soul of illythiir seems far more damaging than polluting their genetic code.
Would the influence of demons be profound, probably not after 20000 years. Would it give them a natural propensity toward chaos and betrayal, possibly. By lolth enforcing a society of evil and chaos she brings out that nature in them all too easily and she has entrapped the entire race in that net.
Does that mean drow cant be lawful, neutral, or good, absolutely not, but unlike human society it is not going to be a natural balance. There are always going to be more chaotic and evil people in any drow society (even without lolth's influence) because of the deliberate breeding with demons.
The percentage chance might be that chaotic evil people make up something like 25% of the population. That would naturally tip the balance of any drow society towards chaos and evil because there are more people performing chaotic and evil acts. The society in turn then selects towards chaotic and evil people (those not able to compete are weeded out by betrayal and backbiting).
I don't think anything is inevitable or guaranteed, but making the drow into something even slightly different would take long term concerted effort from an outside party (like what Eilistraee does/did/does, and even then the drow following her weren't always that different from Lolthites from the sounds of it).
Some things are just in people's nature. Its in the nature of English people to queue, its in the nature of Scottish people to rebel against the english, its in the nature of drow to be chaotic and evil. Not everyone in England will queue up or even queue up the same way, but society is geared around queuing because a large proportion of society queues and so more of them get into power and ensure everyone else queues which reinforces the queuing nature already inherent in most people in England (only analogy I could think of, sorry).
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 20:53:41
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I agree that CE drow will probably be more than differently aligned ones, but saying that evil is in nature is oversimplifying it IMO: Lolth's influence/society is the main factor. Even in D&D ''the soul'' is corrupted by magic, because demons are magic, and it is not something intrinsical, but rather external influence that can be overcome. What they said about tiefling (who are way ''more tainted'' than drow) proves it.
The efforts required to change the drow is mostly dued to Lolth's influence, the context they live in, brainwashing, and the danger of death and torture that people who choose differently must face.
Also, Eilistraee's followers are far different from Lolthites: sometimes they can be aggressive without reason, or still keep traces of the sexism in their society, but I think that's mainly because 1)changes don't happen overnight 2)Eilistraee's dogma surely is very happy and joyful, but the main aspects of it are hard to follow 3)it is hard to overcome paranoia when people attack you on sight. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Sep 2014 20:54:16 |
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Vehiron
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 20:55:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystic Lemur
Since you care about canon, I have to repeat what dazzlerdal said about the drow being interbred with the Demon Wendonai. Their chaotic nature is genetic, according to canon.
I sadly have to disagree.
Since I care about canon, I am aware that demons are as much inherently evil as they are chaotic, yet, as mentioned above, Eilistraee's followers could still be and were strictly of good alignment.(I like Drizzt as he is too, would not wish him to turn into evil, just because of Wendonai :)
To advance the matter further, even tieflings can be of any alignment (though they are naturally inclined towards evil), and they have more inherited "evil in their circulatory system". Drow are not devils or demons with a set alignment. Turning them into elves or freeing them from their drow state is a different matter, for that is where the blood of Wendonai (according to my understanding of canon) comes into play, as Corellon "freed all of Eilistraee's followers from their state as drow, who were not tainted by Wendonai's blood".Thus, physical transformation and their elevation/salvation to the "Celestial elf realms" could indeed pose a big problem (just like it would in the case of tieflings).However, there is no need for this kind of salvation in the campaign, so I see no obstacle here:)
quote:
Originally posted by Mystic Lemur
I think your best bet, despite your restrictions, is going to be Bane or a devil lord like Asmodeus. Lolth started as a Demon Queen, it's only fitting that she should be opposed by a devil.
Perhaps an opposition like that could truly be fitting, for players wishing to play with drow who would serve the infernal, or a human deity, but the desired concept here is not to find a "simple" antithesis of Lolth, but to find a deity "worthy of worship for the drow". Unfortunately, I am restricted by the character concepts, directions and views of my players, who would deem Bane as an "upstart human deity", and an archdevil as a "limited leader of beasts from the outer planes who would only bring eventual ruin to anything he would touch". Thus, the restrictions are sadly not optional, and mainly not because of reasons basing on roleplaying and character concepts.
I will have to thank you respectfully for your opinion, and your post only assured me in the sad result, that no current deity of canon could fill the void (which could be considered as natural, since Lolth does not like rivals, but I "had to try"), so I will have to resort to "conjuring one up". Luckily, I received some most inspiring suggestions and ideas regarding that direction in this thread, so I wish to express my gratitude to all who shared their opinions on the matter, and helped in this endeavor
And with respect, to the friendly sages of the Realms, I would ask that if you have any suggestions, or would simply wish to correct an error on my part, be so kind to contribute your opinions, even if we would not seem to agree on a point or two, for a good synthesis can only come to life by throwing at least one thesis and an antithesis into the brewing pot :) |
Edited by - Vehiron on 25 Sep 2014 21:14:25 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 21:13:18
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I think you put the cart before the lizard here. 
Also, you make too big a deal out of alignment. Consider how Aranea handle their Zanassu.
Should it be a theocracy at all?
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
but in Dragon #236 I note that Araleth Letheranil has a "spider bite" from Lolth. One could imagine a backstory where that poison slowly turns him from CG to LE, but leaves him still implacably opposed to Lolth. HIs portfolio could slowly turn from Light/Starlight/Twilight to Darkness.
And not having problems with the drow? Also, this would be superfluous on two counts:
1) FR already got Shevarash; and the Seldarine themselves probably wouldn't want to split his flock.
2) Fanon already got "Pelor, the Burning Hate" thing, so this would only turn an unique deity into a copycat.
quote:
There are lots of gods who have taken on an "aspect" that is then venerated by another race. I would look at LE gods that do fit the bill for what you want.
Indeed. If Talos poses as Malyk, why others won't?
quote:
For example, I would think that GOD_NAME could have an interesting story as a LE sister of Araushnee, who was killed by Araushne ages ago (poisoned by her spider bite).
After millennia of death, GOD_NAME appears to be "waking up."GOD_NAME is finally shaking off the poison and "waking up", but she's still wracked by pain from Araushnee's poison.
This would raise obvious questions... about what spiders tend to do with their defeated siblings.
quote:
A big part of GOD_NAME's followers philosophy is learning to ignore the pain of everyday life. (Not eliminate it, but tolerate it.) This could be why these drow force themselves to live on the surface, endure prejudice, etc. all to make themselves stronger and better position them for revenge against the Spider Queen.
In truth, GOD_NAME is an aspect of Loviatar, who is trying to expand her worshipers by taking on GOD_NAME's guise to gain worshipers among the drow.
It's not only more moderate than Loviatar's mainstream "glutton for pain" thing, it's more moderate than "Cult of Shared Suffering" Ilmatari heresy. 
Though otherwise looks good. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 21:31:04
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quote:
I will have to thank you respectfully for your opinion, and your post only assured me in the sad result, that no current deity of canon could fill the void (which could be considered as natural, since Lolth does not like rivals, but I "had to try"), so I will have to resort to "conjuring one up". Luckily, I received some most inspiring suggestions and ideas regarding that direction in this thread, so I wish to express my gratitude to all who shared their opinions on the matter, and helped in this endeavor
No problem. I know what works for me often wouldn't work for others. You are correct that Bane would be considered an upstart, coming to power well after the Descent. I just can't think of any being that meets all of your strict criteria. Every one that I could mention seems to fail on some aspect, which is why I thought maybe you were being too stringent in your requirements. |
"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;) |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1527 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 15:15:37
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Bane wouldn't necessarily be seen as an upstart; as a mortal, he banded together and worked with Bhaal and Myrkul, and their alliance led them to godhood. That's pretty much an 'enlightened' drow success story.
This could even lead to a subtle war between Eilistraee's church and Bane's church. The Black Lord offers far more for renegade drow than Eilistraee does, with Vhaeraun taking the opportunity to attempt opening lines of communication between his realm and Bane's domain on Avalas. |
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Vehiron
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 22:06:30
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Baltas
I have been circling around the same vestige (among a few others), in the case of being left with no other option when elevating a vestige would have to do the trick. Malkizid is indeed a problem child, especially since he is strongly abhorrent towards all elvenkind (drow included), but might provide a necessary seed or two in the campaign 
dazzlerdal
You Sir, seem to have found the needle I have been searching for so desperately in the haystack. If I would picture the "Deity finding project" as an Epic Spell research process, Gargauth could truly count as the best Epic seed for the spell I might be able to find,among those present, to polish and to build from.
Since this inspiring thread has provided me with lots of factors "for completing the spell", I consider my question answered.
I wish thank you all happily again for your opinions and answers. It has truly been a pleasure to receive your insights on the matter.
"waves happily returning to his books with enthusiasm" |
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 18:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Bane wouldn't necessarily be seen as an upstart; as a mortal, he banded together and worked with Bhaal and Myrkul, and their alliance led them to godhood. That's pretty much an 'enlightened' drow success story.
It happened thousands of years after the descent of the drow, so they are upstarts as far as elves and drow are concerned. |
"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;) |
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In need of advice on a drow deity for a campaign
