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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 11:58:00
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The other day I was musing how having the first 5E map of the 5E version of the Forgotten Realms include several spelling mistakes - and not even being able to spell Silverymoon correctly! - was a good way to piss off the diehard fans who hated 4E and then WotC says no campaign setting is scheduled for publication.
Maybe 4E wasn't so bad after all? ;) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 14:34:54
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Whew, that's a relief... I was seriously considering again swearing off anything from them until they rethought the decision.
The quote below is from Mike Mearls, from the link Mattias so kindly shared. I'm reposting it because of its relevance.
quote:
The original tweet doesn't capture the full story - we're not working on an FRCS right now because we are putting the bandwidth available for such a project into thinking about how to do an FRCS.
If you think of how we created fifth edition, we probably put more time and effort into determining what it needed to be (playtest, etc.) than into actually writing the final product.
The DMG is also still in the works - we won't even consider engaging in our next big RPG project until that is out the door, everyone has taken a vacation, and we're ready to tackle another huge project.
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 16:19:12
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I suspect they won't publish another FRCG until fourth quarter 2016 at the earliest, perhaps mid-2017.
Any lore updates regarding the Sundering will be through adventures in "Tyranny of Dragons" and perhaps an occasional short article by Ed.
One of the biggest complaints for a long time, stretching back to 2E, is that FR lore often comes in big deluges, either revealed in RSEs in novels or in campaign guide (or other supplement) chapters. When that happens, it doesn't seem "organic" or "lived through" for customers.
So maybe, just maybe, they did listen to customers here and they're in fact doing something that hasn't been seen for decades: they don't want to repeat the 4E mistake of having a giant lore gap followed immediately by a big deluge of info that doesn't feel organic. By taking a couple years to put out lore in small chunks (in novels and adventures), they're actually re-laying the FR foundation.
It also allows everyone the chance to pull back a bit and play with whatever Realms past edition that they prefer best, rather than having yet another "The State of Abeir-Toril" handed down from on-high.
Just a thought.
Or it could just be that they have a small staff now, a smaller budget, or that the designers have been focused on Tyranny of Dragons (which does stretch into the D&D Neverwinter MMO, that thing got a LOT of new material added to it, also tied into Tyranny).
Whatever the case, it is another one of their gambles - that people won't drift away entirely from FR. It has been about six years since the 4E FRCG, and two full years since the first announcement of the Sundering. That's a long time to have no update other than novels, which many gamers might not even read.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 16 Aug 2014 16:29:40 |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 16:44:40
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| Well, it looks like the downsizing of the D&D staff at Wizards over the years is now having a major effect: the number of major projects the staff can work on at once has been reduced to one. With all hands needed for the rollout of 5e, and the DMG still not completed, it'll be a while before they can fully focus on a FR Campaign Setting book, and even longer before it'll be published. Combined with the number of new novels published per year being practically halved after 2012, this makes me sad. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 17:19:10
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Well that's a relief.
I guess we could look at it this way too. Ed really has a ton of work cut out for him since the 100 year jump wiped out so many NPCs. It's really the opportunity to redesign almost everything. And by redesign I mean new NPC's, plots, schemes, and various other fun stuff in the cities across Faerun. And if they're doing it right, perhaps he certainly needs a ton of time to write the setting.
That and I can understand getting 5E launched with the first few books without jumping into another project. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 19:26:07
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| Hmm, OK. I'll keep my order of the PHB intact/ But I still want to hear their plans for the novels. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 23:45:19
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| Glad to see Mike Mearls came down to clarify things. |
Yan
Playtester |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 03:03:27
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| Keep your eyes peeled. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 03:22:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Keep your eyes peeled.
Why? WotC just said that they will only put out adventures and novels in the near future and that an eventual FRCG is a long way down the road. That has basically killed my enthusiasm, at least until they actually announce the 5e FR. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 03:43:15
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| I've waited years for the 4E era to pass, I can certainly wait a bit longer. A relief to know it's eventually coming. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 03:53:22
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| Same, but I don't see much to look forward for in the next 2 years or so... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Aug 2014 03:53:50 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 04:07:11
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| I'm going into town Tuesday to snag Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Curious what kind of a Realms adventure line we're going to have in the meantime. |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 23:14:13
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I'm worried to say the least, BUT if this means that WotC is actually spending this time to roll out 5e realms RIGHT while restructuring things then I think it will be worth the wait.
There does seem to be a discrepancy from how the Sundering was rolled out and what it promised to what is being delivered and that is incredibly disappointing. At this point I think a little transparency and honesty would go a long way in winning back the confidence of long time fans. If the wait is worth it, then great. But if we wait and nothing happens the fans will leave.
On a side note to all the Drizzt/novel haters. If it wasn't for Drizzt the FR would most likely have died years ago and quite possibly WotC wouldn't have even taken interest in the sinking ship that was TSR. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 23:47:06
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quote:
Originally posted by jornan
On a side note to all the Drizzt/novel haters. If it wasn't for Drizzt the FR would most likely have died years ago and quite possibly WotC wouldn't have even taken interest in the sinking ship that was TSR.
I don't think that anyone is a novel ''hater'' here, it's just that having only novels published (alongside with some adventure) isn't exactly what one expects from a D&D setting... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 23:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'm going into town Tuesday to snag Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Curious what kind of a Realms adventure line we're going to have in the meantime.
Idk, ToD seems a very mainstream adventure of the ''A great evil is destroying stuff, ''heroes'' are needed to stop it'' kind. But then, I don't use/read modules, so I don't know if that is the standard model for them. I may very well be wrong about ToD, tho. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 02:16:17
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In the mean time, I'm hoping they have some plan for 3rd party support ready soon, especially since Wolfgang Baur worked on Tyranny of Dragons. I could wait a bit longer to see 5th Edition Realms treatment if I had some "official" 5th Edition stats for Gearforged, Kobolds, Minotaurs, Roachlings, and Ravenfolk to use as PCs while we explore Midgard for a while.
It does make me hesitant to start a game using just the Tyranny of Dragons adventures. I already noticed this while running Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle for some friends, but I want to know what's just off the map, in case they go there instead of anywhere detailed in the adventure. I know I have the imagination to make it up, but I also know that I like for all of my previous campaigns to have happened in the same world, and that gets trickier when I have to fill in the gaps myself, especially if I really like what they did with a region better than what I made up.
I do think we may be overestimating how many resources they have to produce D&D products. The team at WOTC seems pretty thin these days, and even if they are willing to use outside studios and freelancers, a major thing like the core campaign setting book is something you want a lot of "in house" eyes on. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 04:35:47
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| I think the design model of fifth-edition D&D -- design by a big team to meet the preferences of a huge body of playtesters -- is very much not what's wanted for the fifth-edition Realms, or pretty much any other world-building task. So much of the weakness of the last two versions stems precisely from overthought top-down group design -- both the heavy-handed changes-to-match-rules and the dubious key 'Life in Faerûn' chapter of the 2001 setting and the out-of-sympathy reconceptualization of the 2008 one. That kind of committee design almost always feels thin, artificial, manufactured, exactly what the original Realms was not. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 14:52:06
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I would very much support giving third-party companies licenses to write Realms products.
Vorpal Games adventures and novels anyone? Brian R. James, Matt James, Ed Greenwood, Erik Scott de Bie and more?
If only we had a pool of Realms fans that could somehow influence WotC... hmm..... |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 19:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I would very much support giving third-party companies licenses to write Realms products.
Vorpal Games adventures and novels anyone? Brian R. James, Matt James, Ed Greenwood, Erik Scott de Bie and more?
If only we had a pool of Realms fans that could somehow influence WotC... hmm.....
I really think this might be the best future for the Realms, in all honesty. If WotC has a good and decent lore and continuity gatekeeper in place, it could work really well.
I can understand their wanting to keep the 5E FRCG in house, but it's hard for me to imagine that we're going to see the type of supplemental sourcebook material we all are going to want for the setting.
Personally, I want to see one or two Realms source books coming out each year. If two sourcebooks come out each year that will take us, what? Nine or ten years to reach an equal number of sourcebooks produced for 3E?
If third party designers are allowed to work in conjunction with WotC and set up Kickstarter campaigns to fund the creation of Realms material, then I believe we could establish a new golden age for the Realms as a campaign setting. By self-funding in this manner, we can guarantee that at least labor and production costs will be covered, provided the third party companies can manage themselves well. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 19:35:23
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I'd be cool with third parties doing it, but they'd have to have the chops to write Realms specific stuff and do a good job at it. Otherwise, it'd just be plain bad for the setting and dilute or muddy the waters.
I don't want weird stuff that breaks the immersion (Bill the paladin etc). That's just my thoughts. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 19 Aug 2014 19:43:31 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 20:17:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'd be cool with third parties doing it, but they'd have to have the chops to write Realms specific stuff and do a good job at it. Otherwise, it'd just be plain bad for the setting and dilute or muddy the waters.
I don't want weird stuff that breaks the immersion (Bill the paladin etc). That's just my thoughts.
I think that's why it would need a strong lore and continuity gatekeeper, someone who has the authority to oversee stuff and veto B.S. that has no place in the setting. With someone like that in place, I think it becomes safe, and in reality it may be the only way we get the amount of supplements that we want. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 20:18:19
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IMO, far too much of the outsourced FR material near the end of 3E (and all of 4E) was just exceptionally boring and terribly generic.
Greenwood should be primary. But if they must outsource, go back to the really good creatives of the past Realms. Brian Cortijo, Jeff Grubb, Steven Schend, and Eric Boyd would be good. I'm really NOT interested in material by others, sorry.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 22:08:59
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I would create a Realmslore Certification program. You can create content for the Forgotten Realms, but if you want it to be certified as canon, you have to go through a more stringent certification process. The products that are Realmslore Certified would have a seal on the cover.
quote:
Greenwood should be primary. But if they must outsource, go back to the really good creatives of the past Realms. Brian Cortijo, Jeff Grubb, Steven Schend, and Eric Boyd would be good. I'm really NOT interested in material by others, sorry.
Fair enough. No need to be sorry for having an opinion. Any reason you would leave off Brian R. James and George Krashos from your list? |
Edited by - Matt James on 19 Aug 2014 22:09:20 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 22:45:17
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| For what its worth, if a situation similar to MWP's Dragonlance books arose, that would be great. And not every book had to be written by the original authors for the sourcebooks to be some of the best Dragonlance material ever produced, but having them around to keep their eyes on the projects and nudge things here or there definitely seemed to help. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 00:04:06
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Once the 5E FRCS is done, WotC would do well to outsource writing for Realms products to third parties like Vorpal Games, because Matt and Brian have prior experience working on the Realms and have recent experience producing their own product, and so are capable of getting things done on time, and freelance writers like Erik Scott DeBie, whose work on the Neverwinter Campaign Setting really shines, and George Krashos, who knows a hell of a lot about the Realms.
I think the biggest challenge for any freelancer writing for the Realms is to write something that’s inline with what WotC is asking for, while also writing something that’s genuinely useful to a DM or a player.
Piling lore on top of lore is great for the Realmslorephiles out there, but it’s not great for DMs who just need a few NPC names, basic stats for same (class and level; one or two unique magic items or abilities) and some information about a ruin, dungeon or inn to get a game going with.
In order for the 5E Realms to prosper, there need to be many hands in the mix. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 01:31:03
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quote:
Any reason you would leave off Brian R. James and George Krashos from your list?
Personal preference.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Once the 5E FRCS is done, WotC would do well to outsource writing for Realms products to third parties like Vorpal Games, because Matt and Brian have prior experience working on the Realms and have recent experience producing their own product, and so are capable of getting things done on time, and freelance writers like Erik Scott DeBie, whose work on the Neverwinter Campaign Setting really shines, and George Krashos, who knows a hell of a lot about the Realms.
No thanks. Knowing the Realms doesn't always mean having the same, or similar, vision.
quote:
Piling lore on top of lore is great for the Realmslorephiles out there
Not always.
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In order for the 5E Realms to prosper, there need to be many hands in the mix.
One might just as easily say that too many chefs spoil the soup.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 20 Aug 2014 01:38:17 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 01:56:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
One might just as easily say that too many chefs spoil the soup.
Of course you could. But then you wouldn’t be adding anything meaningful to the discussion.
Part of why the Realms were sold to TSR was so that it could grow; so that others could get their hands on it and do amazing things with it.
Granted we haven’t always got amazing things (this is about as far as we can take the "too many chefs" comment), but this doesn’t change the fact that the original idea for a Realms released to the world was one of a shared vision. Much of what’s great about the Realms hasn’t come from the likes of Ed Greenwood. Instead, it has come from Jeff Grubb, Steven Schend, Elaine Cunningham, R.A. Salvatore and a long list of others.
You don’t get that if you limit the number of people working on the Realms to a number equal to or less than the fingers of one hand. Likewise if you impose an ephemeral, moving target of a “vision” that suits the tiny number of people who enjoy talking about the Realms with strangers on the internet, and that’s limited in scope to what these people think the Realms should be.
People like deBie have already shown a capacity to work within the setting, and to use the tools given to them (like the Waterdeep Bible for the Ed Greenwood Presents: Waterdeep series) to write entertaining novels.
Lets not forget that people like Brian Cortijo and George Krashos are the vision for the Realms, inasmuch as what they write for the parts of the setting they specialize in is, or nearly is, canon, and they both have prior writing credits in the Realms.
And these are just a few examples of the people who’ve done great work for the Realms and who ought to have first crack at it after the 5E FRCS hits the store shelves.
I know I won’t like everything they write, because I haven’t always liked their work in the past. But what I want isn’t as important as what’s important for the Realms and for its ability to grow and prosper side by side with the new edition of D&D.
I hope WotC finds some new people to work on the Realms as well. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 20 Aug 2014 02:04:10 |
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GENCON Tyranny of Dragons Seminar
