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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 18:11:54
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| That's the first I've heard of his Vaasa/Damara Witch King/Orcus modules not being intended for the Realms. Were they originally part of his Demon Wars setting? |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1298 Posts |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2014 : 16:25:32
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I have a question for Erik, Richard, and any other authors who may be reading this thread. How come no one has started up a "creator-owned" shared novel universe? For me, and I think a lot of other people, a big appeal of the Realms is the shared universe feeling, and the fact that different authors with different perspectives and styles all contribute to it. As the OP observed, right now the only authors with announced books in the Realms are RAS, Ed Greenwood, and Erin Evans, and while I enjoy all of those writers, three people can't cover the full scope that made me fall in love with the Realms!
So why can't we have a shared universe with Richard Lee Byers, Erik Scott de Bie, Paul Kemp, Troy Denning, Elaine Cunningham, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak, Jim Lowder, and so on? Why do we have to wait for Hasbro? I ask this seriously. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2014 : 17:11:28
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| Part of the answer (and the authors can correct me if I'm wrong) is copyright issues. The authors do not own the Realms, so to speak, therefore if they went and wrote in it without the permission of Wizards/Hasbro/TSR, that would be plagerism. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2014 : 17:38:31
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| Well, they could do it if it was their own creation... But that would require a lot of time and coordination. And unless I am mistaken, it wouldn't have as much appeal as a shared world that wasn't a tie-in. Not saying there is anything wrong with the idea or that it wouldn't be as good as tie-in fiction; but tie-in fiction has a built-in, pre-selected audience and therefore will draw in more readers, at least initially. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2014 : 19:34:15
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Given how RAS has been writing FR novels pretty much since FR novels have existed, I think it's pretty outlandish to say that his books don't feel realmsish.
Now if your argument is that when he uses characters from other authors that they don't feel right (namely Alustriel), I'd say you have a point. But RAS is far from being the only author with this problem. For example, Ed's Elminster feels a lot different than the Elminster that appears in the books of other authors. The Storm that appears in the Avatar series (first book) was a complete moron compared to how she usually acts.
The argument that his stuff doesn't really connect with what other authors do, is also a fine argument, but suffers from the same problem above: that's what happens with most Realms books. Every author is usually doing his own thing, and the best way to avoid continuity problems is by not using characters that other authors are using.
Addendum: the argument that RAS has no respect for the Realms because his characters have "silly names, speech impediments, and mental illnesses" is so fantastically bad that you should be ashamed to have even thought it. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 22 Sep 2014 19:37:35 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2014 : 22:12:44
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| Bob salvatore (by his own admission) finds corners to hide in. He rarely ventures into the wider realms and pretty much does his own thing. He created icewind dale, menzoberranzan and spirit soaring just so he could play in his own sandbox. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2014 : 22:57:41
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Many FR authors try to select a location which is somewhere almost off the edge of the map - RAS is not at all unique in that regard. Long ago, the *frontiers* were places like the Moonsea, the North, the Anauroch, Tantras and Neverwinter. Few dared to tread in Realms which were sort of owned by other authors, stories about Cormyr and the Dales and Zhentil Keep arent written unless WotC deliberately assigns stories to occur in those Heartland regions. Each new map of the Realms is bigger and grander, now we look at once-distant places like Baldurs Gate or Thay as being almost right next door. Even the exotic lands of Zakhara and the Shining South and Shou and Halruaa dont seem like the nearly-impossible epic jaunts across hostile lands that once they were.
I find it curious that FR fiction went through a brief period of placing some focus back into the Dales and Sembia and Westgate, etc. Its almost as if the audience had travelled to far away, hidden, secret, and exotic corners of the Realms for so long that they needed to be reminded of their points of origin. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 01:08:53
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
I have a question for Erik, Richard, and any other authors who may be reading this thread. How come no one has started up a "creator-owned" shared novel universe?
[snip]
So why can't we have a shared universe with Richard Lee Byers, Erik Scott de Bie, Paul Kemp, Troy Denning, Elaine Cunningham, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak, Jim Lowder, and so on? Why do we have to wait for Hasbro? I ask this seriously.
You totally could. Is that something you'd want?
It wouldn't be the Realms, because . . .
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Part of the answer (and the authors can correct me if I'm wrong) is copyright issues. The authors do not own the Realms, so to speak, therefore if they went and wrote in it without the permission of Wizards/Hasbro/TSR, that would be plagerism.
That's the explanation for why we don't just release books set in the Realms. I suppose we could create our own shared-setting, and in fact many of us have taken part in such things.
Have you read Hal Greenberg's "The Awakened" anthology, by any chance?
That's just an anthology for now, but it could grow from there.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Many FR authors try to select a location which is somewhere almost off the edge of the map ...
[snip]
I find it curious that FR fiction went through a brief period of placing some focus back into the Dales and Sembia and Westgate, etc. Its almost as if the audience had travelled to far away, hidden, secret, and exotic corners of the Realms for so long that they needed to be reminded of their points of origin.
This is indeed a curious thing, and I think it's kind of a natural flow of things.
From my perspective, I wrote my first two Realms novels (Ghostwalker and Depths of Madness) to be intentionally in underdeveloped areas. My third, Downshadow was obviously required to be in Waterdeep, since it was part of that series (which I think was intended to be to 4e something like what the Sembia series was for 3e). My next two Shadowbane books were based in Luskan (because it fit so well into the concept) and Westgate (because it's a classic Realms locale and I love it to death) respectively.
If Shadowbane 4 (working title "Kingdom of Night") happens, I'm currently planning to continue working in Westgate.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 03:40:48
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| CylSaber: That is certainly something that could happen. Somebody would have to be the mastermind who launched and oversaw the project, though. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 05:32:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If Shadowbane 4 (working title "Kingdom of Night") happens, I'm currently planning to continue working in Westgate.
More Shadowbane and 'Light? Yes please!  |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 06:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
CylSaber: That is certainly something that could happen. Somebody would have to be the mastermind who launched and oversaw the project, though.
This is the crux of it. That's a lot of work. A lot of "not-writing" work. |
www.slushlush.com |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 14:45:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Part of the answer (and the authors can correct me if I'm wrong) is copyright issues. The authors do not own the Realms, so to speak, therefore if they went and wrote in it without the permission of Wizards/Hasbro/TSR, that would be plagerism.
Oh, I didn't mean doing unauthorized Realms stories, I meant building their own shared fantasy world.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, they could do it if it was their own creation... But that would require a lot of time and coordination. And unless I am mistaken, it wouldn't have as much appeal as a shared world that wasn't a tie-in. Not saying there is anything wrong with the idea or that it wouldn't be as good as tie-in fiction; but tie-in fiction has a built-in, pre-selected audience and therefore will draw in more readers, at least initially.
You know, I have never thought of the Realms novels as "tie-in" books. Something like Star Wars, where people clearly are drawn by the movies, yes, those novels are tie-ins. But as far as I know, the Realms novels are an equal draw to the game material. I would consider that more "trans-media"... and of course there would be nothing to stop the authors of a "creator-owned" shared universe from licensing their world out for game material and other products.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
So why can't we have a shared universe with Richard Lee Byers, Erik Scott de Bie, Paul Kemp, Troy Denning, Elaine Cunningham, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak, Jim Lowder, and so on?
You totally could. Is that something you'd want?
It wouldn't be the Realms, because . . .
It's definitely something I'd want. As much as I love the Realms, I know that the authors that have built up over the years are the reason I love it so much. So I'd love to see something of that scope involving those talents.
quote:
Have you read Hal Greenberg's "The Awakened" anthology, by any chance?
That's just an anthology for now, but it could grow from there.
I have not, but now I am curious!
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
CylSaber: That is certainly something that could happen. Somebody would have to be the mastermind who launched and oversaw the project, though.
Hey, Jeff Grubb used to be traffic cop for the Realms :)
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
This is the crux of it. That's a lot of work. A lot of "not-writing" work.
Yeah, I guess I can see that, and it would no doubt be a risk, but the idea of a sandbox owned and operated by the folks who play in it sounds long overdue. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 16:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, they could do it if it was their own creation... But that would require a lot of time and coordination. And unless I am mistaken, it wouldn't have as much appeal as a shared world that wasn't a tie-in. Not saying there is anything wrong with the idea or that it wouldn't be as good as tie-in fiction; but tie-in fiction has a built-in, pre-selected audience and therefore will draw in more readers, at least initially.
You know, I have never thought of the Realms novels as "tie-in" books. Something like Star Wars, where people clearly are drawn by the movies, yes, those novels are tie-ins. But as far as I know, the Realms novels are an equal draw to the game material. I would consider that more "trans-media"... and of course there would be nothing to stop the authors of a "creator-owned" shared universe from licensing their world out for game material and other products.
They are tied-in to the game setting, similar to the Pathfinder, BattleTech, or Shadowrun novels.
Star Wars and Star Trek novels are also tie-ins, though they aren't tied to the game settings; the game settings and fiction are tied to the movies and TV shows. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Sep 2014 16:24:29 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 17:04:36
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| Not sure how hasbro would like the idea of a world created in direct competition to the realms that is written by its own authors. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 17:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Not sure how hasbro would like the idea of a world created in direct competition to the realms that is written by its own authors.
Unless it was also supported by an RPG, I don't think that they'd consider it direct competition. Besides, unless they have contracts with the authors that say the authors cannot write for themselves or anyone else, then there is nothing Hasbro could do.
Honestly, as far as competition goes, Hasbro is more concerned about other toymakers. For competition in the area of RPGs and fiction, their competition is Paizo. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 17:34:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Not sure how hasbro would like the idea of a world created in direct competition to the realms that is written by its own authors.
Unless it was also supported by an RPG, I don't think that they'd consider it direct competition. Besides, unless they have contracts with the authors that say the authors cannot write for themselves or anyone else, then there is nothing Hasbro could do.
Honestly, as far as competition goes, Hasbro is more concerned about other toymakers. For competition in the area of RPGs and fiction, their competition is Paizo.
Well knowing hasbro/wizards it wouldn't surprise me if they cut off their nose to spite their face lol |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 18:02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Not sure how hasbro would like the idea of a world created in direct competition to the realms that is written by its own authors.
Unless it was also supported by an RPG, I don't think that they'd consider it direct competition. Besides, unless they have contracts with the authors that say the authors cannot write for themselves or anyone else, then there is nothing Hasbro could do.
Honestly, as far as competition goes, Hasbro is more concerned about other toymakers. For competition in the area of RPGs and fiction, their competition is Paizo.
Well knowing hasbro/wizards it wouldn't surprise me if they cut off their nose to spite their face lol
It's easy to bash WotC, out of disagreement with past decisions... But I can't see any reason why they would pay any attention at all to a group of freelance authors making their own shared world. Many of TSR/WotC's authors have creator-owned worlds they've written about for other publishers -- including some of the bigger names that have been on TSR/WotC's roster of authors. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 19:14:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Not sure how hasbro would like the idea of a world created in direct competition to the realms that is written by its own authors.
Unless it was also supported by an RPG, I don't think that they'd consider it direct competition. Besides, unless they have contracts with the authors that say the authors cannot write for themselves or anyone else, then there is nothing Hasbro could do.
Honestly, as far as competition goes, Hasbro is more concerned about other toymakers. For competition in the area of RPGs and fiction, their competition is Paizo.
Well knowing hasbro/wizards it wouldn't surprise me if they cut off their nose to spite their face lol
It's easy to bash WotC, out of disagreement with past decisions... But I can't see any reason why they would pay any attention at all to a group of freelance authors making their own shared world. Many of TSR/WotC's authors have creator-owned worlds they've written about for other publishers -- including some of the bigger names that have been on TSR/WotC's roster of authors.
It was a joke. Lighten up. |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 20:55:13
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If Hasbro isn't happy with authors writing outside of the Realms, there's a simple solution to that... hire them to write more Realms novels!
Competition is good :) |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 05:17:24
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
If Hasbro isn't happy with authors writing outside of the Realms, there's a simple solution to that... hire them to write more Realms novels!
Competition is good :)
Excellent idea. :)
But fortunately Hasbro has no say on what we do outside the Realms. If you're an employee, you have a non-compete agreement in place. If you're a contractor, you just have to deliver what you agreed to deliver and not break your NDAs. :) |
www.slushlush.com |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 14:41:52
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| It would be nice to think that Hasbro is interested enough in all the individual Realms novelists to track their professional activities outside the setting. Actually, though, I'd be surprised if anyone who qualifies as a big shot at the parent company even knows my name. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 05:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
It would be nice to think that Hasbro is interested enough in all the individual Realms novelists to track their professional activities outside the setting. Actually, though, I'd be surprised if anyone who qualifies as a big shot at the parent company even knows my name.
Ah, such is life working for a company with an IP under the control of a publicly held company. The irony of this for WoTC is that even though Hasbro has a $10+ billion (yes, billion) market cap with $1.35 billion in profits for 2013, the D&D IP is given a budget as if it were owned by a much smaller, privately held company (this is an educated guess considering all of the staffing cuts). |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 21:00:23
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Not intended to be rabble-rousing, simply some of my observations and hypotheses on the current Realms saga for the rumination and hopefully peaceful discussion of the group:
Regardless of whether a company is privately-held or publically-traded, every company has a budget. We all remember the results of TSR's cash woes.
I suspect that the leadership even approaches most decisions in a similar manner; "What is the business case?" Most people will agree that this really means, "How much are we going to make on this effort?" Compare this to "How much are we going to spend on this effort?" and you can assess the overall profitability of the effort in question.
While we all dearly love The Realms, IMHO it is unrealistic to expect any company to be altruistic (take a loss on the overall effort) simply to provide new material for what is probably being assessed as a dwindling fan base. The fact that there is new material in works indicates that the corporate leadership still sees a viable business case.
So, how do we, the loving, Realms-addicted, loyal fan base ensure there continues to be a business case? Let me ask a couple of open-ended questions as food for thought to stimulate discussion.
First, how many "game stores" are around today versus twenty years ago? I can remember vividly the excitement of weekend bike trips to the town square where not one but two stores existed. This in a small farm town with a population under six-thousand. Trips to neighboring towns or "the big city" of 250,000 people found at least one in every small town and multiple competing stores spread throughout the "big city". Today, my home town boasts zero game stores. Today, I now live in the fifth largest metro area in the United States and game stores are as rare as artifacts.
When you walk in to your local game store, what is going on? I found one I frequent and unlike the two I grew up with, which always had at least two game groups of younger kids meeting and playing and even a collection of adults, it's rare that there are more than two customers at any given time. Today, there are no tables or space set aside for gaming groups at the store I frequent. In my past experience, stores always had space for game groups and never charged for reserving a table, since kids could rarely afford to "rent" space. Instead, the owners realized that by being in the store, kids would likely spend their allowance to buy additional product to support their games and thus, it was a good case to provide the space. From a business sense, I can only hypothesize that this change means now there is no demand and thus no revenue to be made by providing space in the store for this activity.
So why the change in the business model? Ask yourselves, other than our core groups of friends with whom we adventure in the Realms, and thus excepting our children, who buy exposure to parental influence, are pre-disposed, what are the majority of kids choosing to do with their time today? For your answer, think about what you absolutely ensure you take with you when you leave the house and the item you can't imagine ever having done without. That's right, thanks to the digital age, kids aren't finding the need to play imagination-based games. It's far easier to hand them an iPad or iPhone and let them entertain themselves playing mindless games like Candy Crush.
To bring this back to point, a decreasing fan base (whether by the fact we're all getting older and lack of younger generations interest or by the bitterness of what I'll term Edition Wars) means decreasing revenue. In order to make profitability requirements, a reality of any corporation, this means reducing cost structure. How do we change the paradigm? We need to find new ways to drive interest in the product and capture the generation that didn't grow up needing to use their imaginations to entertain themselves. This may mean embracing the change to digital formats far more capable than PBeM.
Good Hunting! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2014 : 21:21:08
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Weird... I have three game stores in my area, and one of them just expanded to have more table space. One store is close to 20 years old, one is like 5 years old or so, and another opened about a year or so ago.
Whenever I go into either, there are usually multiple games going on... For a couple of them, I see more cards games and minis games than RPGs, but I see those there, too. The other usually has RPGs going on.
And this area is not among the largest metropolitan areas in the nation... Though there are a lot of tech companies in the area, so maybe we have a larger than average percentage of gamers and geeks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Sep 2014 21:22:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 01:13:49
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Wargames, card games, and such are generally more accessible to strangers (ie, the public) than tabletop RPGs, I think. First, the products sort of sell themselves - they are on display, their normally reclusive and introverted owners take immense pride in demonstrating their pretty toys and custom touches and masterful expertise on the topic. I think of it as a chatroom centered around a game, people socialize with anybody who happens along to play with them, they always have the option of playing the game or talking about the game when theres no other common ground.
RPG geeks tend to be less receptive to strangers, while efforts are always made to accomodate new players there is always a sense of interlopers being where they dont really belong, established players are often unconfident, shy, even embarassed to reveal how much love they lavish upon their characters and creations. I think this is because most RPG groups are essentially small groups based around one (or a small handful) of stronger personalities, the leaders, whom the others look to for direction and approval. Fitting new people into a complex hierarchical dynamic is always a little problematic, it can be disruptive - even if only because everybody involved strives so hard to avoid disruption that they can no longer behave in a comfortable, natural manner. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Sep 2014 01:21:26 |
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Concerned about only three authors writing novels
