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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 02:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just reread my very first sentence (going back to edit), and have come to an important decision.
Katashaka is the island. it has to be. I need to name the larger landmass something else. I am going to say thats where the ancient Rakshasa Lords had their laboratories, and experimented on various groups. they kidnapped Tabaxi from *Nyambe* (Placeholder) and altered them on the Island of Katashaka.
I could go with Alkebu-lan for that continent, but that might annoy people. Then again, I've been getting away with calling that subcontinent below kata-Shaka Zambu-Dweepam for years (both are RW, indigenous names). Kalkebuna? Taking the RW name and adding bits of 'Katashaka' to the ends? I like it - what do you guys think?
Hmmm, guess I need to go hunt down the original use of Katashaka.
Here's the entry in Candlekeep Compendium IV which introduces Katashaka. What about this screams this is an island that's separate from the continent where Chult is? It sounds like it even more supports the argument that its the continent that was attached to Chult, especially since they were herding the serpentfolk with thunderers and landwyrms.
However, in reading this, I can see where the confusion of Olorubo and Ubtao comes in, since its said that Ubtao is Tarrasque's father... and yet Olorubo is named as the father of all nyama-nummo... and Tarrasque is called a nyama-nummo. Personally, that's a sentence from a non-canon resource that I'm going to ignore, or say people have it wrong. In the end, it doesn't really affect the birth of tarrasque or what she does. In fact its weird as hell that the tarrasque would be born from a giant whale. Personally, I'd favor the concept that most of the Maztican pantheon has ties to sauroids/dinosaurs, aearee, and later humans.
Tarrasque -30,300 DR
Lotan’s great victory over the batrachi drew the attention of a local power named Ubtao. Ubtao courted Lotan for nearly a century. Ultimately their union produced Tarrasque.
Though capable of breathing underwater like her mother, Tarrasque preferred to explore the land of Merrourobos with her father.
The Aeraee held no sway in the southwest region of Merrouroboros. This land was still under the control of the Yuan-ti nation Mhairshaulk.
Like her mother, Tarrasque wished to conquer and rule. Assembling a great multitude of thunderers and landwyrms, Tarrasque pushed southward, driving the Yuan-Ti east and conquering everything in their path, stopping only when reaching the shores of the Great Southern Ocean. Human inhabitants named Tarrasque's realm Katashaka, the largest land empire ever known on Toril.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 02:31:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ah, here was something else I had written up for Katashaka a while back. Some of it may need a little rework based on the recent concepts we've come up with the tabaxi being punished, but for the most part it works.
Where do you get that the Tabaxi are punished? 
That was the recent idea (homebrew) where we were discussing that after the tabaxi left for Chult, the remainder may have been turned into sorcerous orcs and other things and these orcs may have invaded Lopango.
My thing I had written up for Katashaka way back when mostly works, except that I think I'll still have to have some human tribes remaining, but the majority simply disappeared to Abeir during the initial twinning of the world. Basically, the three tribes that migrate still have to exist. However, the majority of the place can be transformed beast humanoids.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 02:37:19
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| Oh, and on the earthmother, Maztica, Othea, Chauntea... linkages... I believe that at one time these were one being. I submit that maybe the elven sundering... ironically... split this goddess up? As a result she became all these different aspects. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 09:15:40
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Yeah, Sundering or shattering, it still works. I was connecting all of that to the World Serpent, in my homebrew over-cosmology. (When the Lattive of Heaven was shattered ad Ymir died, the Gaea merged with him/it. Thus magic ('life') merge with the firmament (the Plane of physicality - the original prime Material). The two together became the Oroborous (really and Amphisbaena) entwined together - The World Serpent. But it wasn't enough to hold the First World together, just enough to keep 'life' in all the separate bits (which eventually coalesced into the Crystal Spheres). So The World Serpent was 'born', and then it was Shattered into a thousand thousand separate consciousnesses. So badly damaged is its multitudinous psyche at the point, it continues to split, for planets within a sphere, and even for landmasses on those planets. The 'Earth Mother' is a concept; an idea that are the parts are still one. But the truth is, the Word Serpent lies comatose, perhaps forever more.
Did you mean CKC IX? Thats the one with Brian's sea=trade article (same issue as mine). I've just been going by the two canon bit we have from the GHotR, and that entry from RoF (combining them). I mean, at this point it just might be easier to ignore the odd entry and say the bigger landmass is Katashaka (I even had a discussion with Eric Boyd on this topic, several years back. He had always assumed the Tabaxi had been lead to Chult from the LARGER landmass as well, and when I pointed-out that entry in the RoF, he had a "Hmmmmmm..." moment. I think his conclusion was that the author was being very 'loose' with his definition of 'island'. I suppose if its good enough for Eric Boyd, it should be good enough for us.
I forget why I suddenly became adamant earlier. I'm tired right now - I have to review my entire thought-process there. I think using the larger island as the 'Rakshasa lab' still works fine, and it really doesn't interfere with anything anyone else wanted to do there. It happened some 25K years in the past (so maybe not even ruins), and its such a big honkin' island you could easily loose entire kingdoms on there without people noticing them. I just now measured it, and its about 1/2 the length of the United states, so about a 1/4 the land-area of the U.S. Thats a BIG island. It may even work out better - the island was originally over near Zakhara (but I now see Zakahra was a lot underwater at that time... interesting. Batrachi?), so it would make some sense they had it nearby (rather than across the ocean), and then by some quirk of fate the whole thing has been floating toward Katashaka for thousands of years (so all the mutated 'beastfolk' the Raksashas created wound up back near where they came from. Some of them, anyway). I would a have gone with Mongrelmen as well, but with that much time having gone by, would they even be that? They probably just look like very ugly, stunted orcs at ths point (the 'race' would have leveled-out with their features and appendage over time). Of course, that doesn't mean that some new baddie hasn't found one of the old labs and started cranking out his own freaks.
I don't want to waste a perfectly good name, and now it seems 'Tabaxiland' is a misnomer, so maybe I'll repurpose 'Kalkebuna' for that. Perhaps that was then nae the ancient Tabaxi called Katashaka, and although the main continent's named changed over time, the survivors of the island have kept it for their new home (and the Raksasha probably called it something else, like 'Symphony of Screams' in Abysal). It doesn't really matter over-much, in the long haul, because the two places are very close to each other now - you could probably make that with an outrigger (those big ones, like in the cave in Moana). My guys in the Mokalonni Islands still use ships like that.
So I'm thinking heavy Batrachi influences in and near water. The large island to the left (of the west coast of Katshaka) I am giving to the Surrukh (I want that to have TONS of scaly ruins... and I am going to replace the island. Thats a direct C&P from Xendrik, and at this point, I ma deviating enough away from that for it not to matter (plus when I did it, I thought there'd be lore for it, but there wasn't any, so I've got the perfect island chain to plop down in that same spot). The surrukh will also have a couple of ruins around elsewhere. Aearee on a couple of mountain tops (I'm thinking like maybe three crashed nest-cities, a'la the Netherese... except their descendants would still be hanging out in them). I'm torn as to weather I want to keep the nyama-nummo aal sauroids, and just consider the others something else, or what. It would probably just be better to lump them together, even though like half those kaiju aren't saurians. It is acceptable to call normal dinos 'nummo', and say only the Great (Elder) ones are Nyama-nummo? Thus we can just fudge things and say those were regular Nummo who got eaten (four Kaiju put together should not have been beaten that easily by the Terrasque). I like what you had for those,and I would have probably done something very similar, but seeing someone else doing itmakes me realize its a bit too close to the original names (as Eric Boyd once warned me while I was naming map stuff, "avoid being 'too cute'"). Personally, I love the names, but we have to try to think how others might feel about it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2018 09:16:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 09:16:41
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The 'Time before Time'.
The First World - sometimes called Midgard - was an unbelievable place, of geogrpahy taking to impossible extremes. Forest and Jungles with trees over a mile high. Plains with herds of animals - dinosaurs and early mammals that would dwarf Earth species - roaming infinite vistas. Towering Mountains that would extend out beyond the atmosphere on most worlds today. Rivers wider than seas, and lakes bigger than any ocean. Deserts & badlands that rolled on and on for tens of thousands of miles. There were more than two dozen 'moons' in the sky - really the domains of various Gods. Frozen wastes with continent-sized icebergs slamming together with a sound that would make mortals deaf. And in this world the giants, Dragons, and even the dwarves toiled relentlessly, extending it, building it, going deeper, and then tearing things down just to make room for new ideas. The 'headquarters' for this massive undertaking was a region called Abeir Toril ('Cradle of Life'). It was there that the work crews gathered supplies and went out into the primal world to create wonders. And it was also there where all these 'lesser beings', like the Celestials, the Progenitors, and lastly the Creators, were first made, in shapes the gods found pleasing.
Four great races were planned - Kossuth would lead the team that would create a race with fire in their blood - the Sarrukh, and chose regions near volcanoes to place them. Istishia would create a race that was as fluid as the sea - the Batrachi, and they would live and near her waters. Akadi would breath life into a people that had no homeland, for they would call the very skies their home - the Aearee. And Grumbor sighed, and thought over-much on his task. He wanted a people that were connected to the earth, but he just didn't have the same creativity - the 'looseness' of mind - to make beautiful creatures as the others had, he tried and tried, creating the Galeb Duhr, and others, but to no avail. he would not win the great contest. Finally, Corellon took pity on the Primordial, and asked, "why do you despair, friend earth?" And Grumbor explained his plight, and Corellon said, "behold, for I have found a place of inspiration", opening a portal to the Wilderlands (which would someday become the Feywild), he brought forth lovely, shimmering Will-O-Wisps. He showed them to Primordial, and explained, This - this is the stuff of life. It forms on its own in this place, and it can become anything you wish.
Now, he had attracted the attention of the other Seldarine, including his grouchy brother Gruumsh. Corellon waved his hands around the Will-O-Wisp and created the first Elf - an Eladrin - from it. And then another, and another. Not wanting to be outdone, some of the other seldarine also shaped their wisps into other forms, although none as majestic as the ones Corellon created. Araushnee made hers into strong and dark maidens, and even Gruumsh got into the act, creating fierce-looking warriors. "But how are these mine?', asked Grumbor, "I've had no hand hand in this!" Because they are not finished, said Corellon - they need direction and purpose. Blow upon them, and fill them with the spirit of the land. And so Grumbor did, and the new creatures - the fey - were bound to the land, and would be the caretakers of Grumbor's living earth for all eternity.
But a young primordial stood to the side - the child of Ymir and Gaea. The name of this Titan is lost in time, for he was killed in the Godswar. He saw what the other Gods were doing and wanted to create his own people, but he lacked the power. Spying some creatures in a nearby forest, he investigated, and discovered the playful Apes. There were other Gods assigned to the task of creating all the beasts of the world, and the variety was plentiful, but these particular creatures delighted the young god with their playfulness and inquisitiveness. "These would make a splendid race!" he thought, "so much more fun than those others!". And so he took them and blew upon them, as he had seen Grumbor do, but nothing happened, he blew again, and still, nothing. Blow and blow, try as he might, they would not change. They remained the funny little furry creatures they were when he found them.
His mother Gaea came upon him, and asked, "why do you cry, my son? Are you not happy with this playground the gods build around you?" he pointed to the Apes, who were now back to frolicking in the trees, and told his mother how he had blown upon them, but he could not create an intelligent species as he had seen others do. "oh, my darling boy, you do not yet have enough powerful to accomplish this so quickly. When you have grown you will be able to create anything you want, instantly, even better than those other Gods, because you are your father's son, and he is the embodiment of all that takes physical form." She pointed at the beasts, "see those that You blew upon? In time they will know greatness. Your breath cannot effect them this day, but your power runs through them now, and like you, it will grow. They will shed their baser instincts, and do great things. And since you are a God, this will seem like a blink of an eye to you". He looked back at the creatures, and noticed one was interested in an insect mound. The poor things was trying to eat the bugs, but couldn't reach them inside. Then he saw it look around, pick up a stick, and it took the stick and slid it into the mound, withdrawing it covered with big, juicy termites. It had used a tool! The Apes were already getting smarter!" His mother frowned, "just how many times did you blow on them?" The boy realized he may have made an mistake. "Once or twice, I think. why?" His mother knew his wasn't telling the whole truth, but she answered him, "because they seem to be learning a bit faster than I expected. You need only blow on them once to give them any one advantage. You've given them the ability to overcome any obstacle, because their own creation is flawed by your youthfulness." Was that a bad thing, he asked? "Maybe - with each breath they become more like us, and you wouldn't want them to someday rise up and challenge us, would you? Who knows what such lowly creatures would be capable of, if they ever held the power of gods.
His mother walked off, and the lad looked at his funny little pets thoughtfully. How many times DID I blow on them, he wondered? But he would never live to see his creations grow to maturity, for soon after the Dawn War broke out, and his father was basely murdered by jealous Gods, and his mother merged with him, to sustain him, but all was still lost. The Lattice of Heaven would be shattered and the First World would crumble apart. He would survive the Dawn War, but would himself be murdered as a young adult when the Godswar broke out. The hominids would not know their creator; they would be cosmic orphans, and have to find their own way... and they did.
Next up, the creation of the spheres, and how the Wilderlands were still connected to all the 'primal places' on the myriad new worlds, and how Ubtao allowed Annams children to use the Gates to come into the Prime material and settle those new worlds. But unknown to them, and thanks to Gaea, somehow some of the Creatori survived, and already thrived, on those worlds. A war for the now-limited resources would be endlessly fought between the survivors. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2018 09:37:51 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 13:08:32
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on Ubtao/Qotal and Kukul/Jazirian. I think Jazirian was Kukul... or possibly Jazirian is a later, lesser aspect of Kukul after the world serpent begins to break down and creates Jazirian. I think when Kukul/Jazirian "left/died", he passed on couatls to his son Qotal. There may be something to a story of Kukul becoming Ao, but if so its only after his son Zaltec kills Kukul's "wife"/ Zaltec's "mother" (Maztica) with a maca with a "killing edge of darkness". It could ALSO be (and more likely in my book) that Kukul is Orrobouros. It is kind of interesting to read this portion of the Maztica boxed set with that in mind.
Kukul, father of the gods, saw what his son had wrought. He grieved for the crime of Zaltec, and wailed for the loss of the goddess his wife. His undying despair shattered the elder god, and left the children of Kukul and Maztica to battle among themselves.
Now Qotal roared his own rage, and the humans fell back in terror and awe. War erupted among the gods, as Tezca, Plutoq, and Azul stood with their brother Zaltec, and Kiltzi and her sisters joined forces with Qotal.
So, just to note, there's Zaltec, plus a being of fire, stone, and water, standing against Qotal, a goddess of love, a "sprite" of wind, another of animals, and another of plants. So, almost like "primordials versus gods", with Qotal "betraying" his brothers.
It should also be noted that the storyline goes "Jazirian and Ssharrstrune court Shekinester the naga queen. Jazirian impregnates Shekinester. Ssharrstrune in a rage attacks Shekinester and Shekinester swallows Ssharrstrune. Shekinester is fragmented, but not totally and later expels Ssharstrunes corpse after birthing Parrafaire, the naga prince. Parrafaire hides the body. I BELIEVE Later, some non-evil Sarrukh of Okoth entreat Jazirian for succor, and he transforms them into couatl. These couatl fight the other Okothian Sarrukh, and then Merrshaulk, a darker fragment of the World Serpent, finally slew Jazirian. At that point, the couatl flee to Maztica where the god Qotal embraces them as his own and they acknowledge him as Jazirian reborn."
All of this is after beings that worship that Maztican gods are given the powers of Hishna and Pluma. With Hishna, humans can take on animal forms like Jaguars. So, in this, I believe that Hishna was originally a LOT more powerful, and it was through it that many of these "beast humanoids" were created. Meanwhile, Pluma may have been a power given first to the aearee... and it may ALSO have made them a target for people's needing feathers to work Plumacraft. I imagine the original versions of these magic may have been more of a "dream magic" wherein the crafter enters a "dreamlike" state while performing the tedious, repetitive requirements of pluma and hishna. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 14:05:23
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On the nature of Nyama-Nummo
We've kind of been batting around "what exactly are they". Some like the idea of dinosaurs. I like the idea of "powerful beast" in particular, and I think with the addition of Akongo as a Nyama-Nummo as well, that we're generally leaning in that direction. However, with what I posted earlier about the early days of Katashaka and these "spirit" or "dream" shamans pulling the Nyama-Nummo from the land of nightmares to fight for them.... I think I'd like for it not ONLY be "powerful beast", but also some powerful beasts that are summoned from the land of nightmare. So that what you get what I'm talking about, I'll give some examples of where I'd like to go with it.
So, there's Akongo... he's a gargantuan ape, and he has these "natives" of some type that worship him (not necessarily human mind you). He's around all the time in his natural form. There's also lesser nyama-nummo, like sabertooth tigers, mammoths, dinosaurs, landwyrms, behirs, bullettes, rocs, etc.... However, there's also an idol of Ramenos, a giant froghemoth looking creature. Periodically, the great shamans of the tribe may awaken "Ramenos" and the idol turns to living flesh, summoned from "somewhere else". In fact, there may be several LESSER idols of Ramenos, and these can turn into normal froghemoths when "activated" with enough blood sacrifice or something. Similar with idols to Kee'gah the Predator (i.e. Kiga the Predator), Camazotz, Ragarra, etc.... These also fall under the term nyama-nummo, and while this would seem foreign to OUR brains, it makes perfect sense to the Katashakan mind.
Thus, it ran for centuries, with essentially these temples only periodically manifesting their "god" just long enough to spur worship again, so that maybe the "god" can stay alive by encouraging sacrifices on their altars. Then the transfer to Abeir happens, and all of these beings come to life at once. Ostensibly they are forced to life to "protect their people". Maybe some dragonlords and their dragons attack, and learn to their chagrin to stay the hell away. Hell, maybe some of these tribes even leave Katashaka and set out to assault the dragonlords. Maybe as I was discussing earlier, some "enemies" of these nyama-nummo, such as Ubtao, are captured and bound and fed upon by these nyama-nummo, for they feel in his body the power of their creator, Olorubo.
Then Sundering 2 happens, and Katashaka comes back to Toril. The question in my head becomes.... better to revert these beings back to idols or keep them "alive". I'm thinking "alive" as long as they're feeding on Ubtao? Which means, would have to define "how" he is (or they are if multiple Maztican deities) entrapped.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 15:47:04
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| I don’t have my materials with me right now but there is a great Dragon Magazine article about developing kaiju from 3e which I’m sure could easily be applied to 5e. There was also, coincidentally as you’ve mentioned a fully developed Octopus kaiju (Sharuga I think), and a bullette as well as a fiery centipede. We’ve discussed a xiuhcoatl and the centipede fits right in with a slight alteration. (I need to find this article - wow). |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 22:16:14
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First off, sorry about that bit about the proto-world (its never actually called that, in 4e lore, but there are LOTS of references to THE world - no multiplicity until after the Lattice of Heaven is shattered. Now, that's not mean to be the 'firmament' (traversable, solid land) as I am trying to spin things, but there are some buts I can borrow from various mythologies that helps blend them together. Nearly all religions have this early Mother/Father God dichotomy, and that's what I am playing off of. Now, in Greek mythology, Gaea is actually supposed to be 'the earth', but I am using the concept of Ymir instead (because I am borrowing a lot of other things from Norse as well). Gaea becomes 'mana' (Life), and by having her merge her essence with the dying Ymir, she can now be the 'Earthmother' as well (she is the 'life' within the land). And in a lot of those old religions we see the masculine proto-God is usually some sort of 'Skyfather'. Now, my concept of Ymir is that he IS the Prime Material - he is the sentience of the dimension itself (each of the Supernals are the consciousness of a dimension). So he is also 'The Sky' as well (and the water, etc - all the 'physical' things in the world). Thus, we get our Earthmother and Skyfather, even though I've twisted them a bit to fit my model. This brings me to the Lattice of Heaven, which IS 4e canon, and IS the thing that got shattered and that moment everything changed. So even though I am saying the reality of it is EVERYTHING was shattered (the fragmentation of the World Serpent), his aspect of 'Skyfather' lends itself to him being gravely wounded when the Lattice of Heaven was Shattered (thus combining all the different mythos, including the different editions of D&D).
Thats pretty-much all I wanted to get across*, and I wound-up prattling on with a huge honkin' post that was barely related to the thread topic. Apologies once again. 'Brevity' isn't my strong suite. In fact, its my antithesis (and now I am doing it again...)
*The Wilderlands is an evolving concept. This was the original, pre-Faerie feywind. It reflects the primal nature of the first world ('life run amok'), whereas the Shadowfell is basically 'death made tangible', and they reflect what happened with Ymir and Gaea (in MY homebrew material). The Wilderlands became the Giant Marches (Jutan-Mangu) when the Lattice of Heaven was broken, and THAT is a pretty major piece of 'core lore' to make a lot of other things I am doing with Katashaka come together (its basically Xendrik's core premise - planer instability - taken to an extreme level). It also happens to be a neat marketing trick invented by the 4e guys - 'use anywhere' modules/locales, rather than setting-specific. So although I didn't mean to have that massive preamble before my timeline, I needed to develop the background in order to move forward.
What this means is that anything located on the maps could be wrong. The map just gives you a general sense of direction things are from one another. At least, with mainland Katshaka itself (I may change this, and do a target/bullseye kind of overlay, so that that 'rings' have different physics as you travel inward - I was going to d this for the size of things anyway). So a tribal village you visited one day that was just a day from your camp might be three days away the next time you try to find it... or more. In fact, you may never find it again (which gives the whole setting a "if you want it, you had better get it NOW" vibe). Not everywhere though, and its completely random (as far as anyone knows), and of course, completely in the control of the DM.
I still use some of the Guide to Hell mythos for my cosmology, which sets Jazirian as some sort of uber-Overpower. however, these gretat discussion we have make me rethink things all the time, and perhaps Jazirian itself is just an aspect of the 'thing' that created the Great Wheel. If the other 'thing' was Ahriman (Angra Mainyu), than it stands to reason the good aspects serpent should have been Mithra (Ahura Mazda - or rather, Mithra was one piece of the a tripartite deity that included Ahura Mazda, but close enough... I like the name 'Mithra). Thus, Jazirian becomes the main aspect of Mithra, who is no longer 'lose in the world' (trapped, as is Ahriman, lest they destroy the Great Wheel which holds the multiverse together). Jazirian creating the Great Wheel becomes both true, and untrue at the same time (I do that a lot LOL). This tones down Jazirian quite a bit from how I was picturing him before (still, I don't want him slinking about katashaka in person as a Kaiju).
The Kaiju themselves: I still only want 12 of them, but we may be able to resolve this by separating the 'Elder Beasts' from the 'great beasts', which I has as the same thing before. At that point we may be able to keep them separate from 'Thunder Lizards' (dinosaurs). I wanted to make YOUR Kaing and Brian's Akonga the same thing to avoid redundancy, but then I realized I had already respun Brian's into a colossal Yeti, and having the two of them might be fun for a War of the Gargantuas type of scenario (I love that movie as a kid, what can I say). And this is besides the fact that i wanted to have 'giant apes' (like Mighty Joe Young giant). However, I realize now that i do not have to stick to this, even though it was a basic premise of what I was doing in the main city (the only real city in Katshaka). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2018 22:17:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 22:56:00
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ANNNND... I did it again.
kaiju Con't...
I think I am going to have it where my 'Dreamers' (man, I hate that term) can take control of any Kaiju, not just a specific one, which alleviates my need to have a set number. I'll have to change the spin of something, but it actually might come out better for the change. Also, I can easily blend this with your 'dream magic' concepts, Sleyvas. They enter the minds of the Kaiju in their sleep/dreams.
Some History:
Abbreviated version: Planer Giants go into the Wilderlands (Feywild) and make it their own. Some time later the Fey arrive, bringing their own demiplane wit them, called Faerie. In much the way Ravenloft became the 'hub' of the Domains of dread in the Shadowfell, so to did faerie become a 'Fey hub' in the Feywild. As the power of the Fey grows (drawing sustenance from the surrounding Wilderlands), the Feywild gets incrementally 'smaller'. The Giants begin to think of faerie as a 'cancer' growing in their midst, and that their own lands will soon be subsumed (and they wouldn't be far off the mark). When the Giants turned on the fey, they retaliated by creating the Jotunrage Mythal, connected to a mete.. errr... never mind. They fought them and lots of people died. Some archfey took the form of great 'Elder Beasts' so as to fight the giants on their own terms, while others opened portals all around the Feywild in the hopes of forcing the giants through them. And the plan worked, mostly. Wherever the kaiju attacked the giants were forced through the gates to the newly forming prime Material Worlds. But many Elder Beasts - maddened by their bloodlust and rage 9for it is VERY hard to maintain control in such a powerful form) chased them through the portals, only to be trapped themselves. The last great Giant kingdoms to fall were the Fomorians, who's lands lie in the belt of impossibly high mountains surrounding the Feywild. In fact, many of them didn't fall, and still fight the fey until this day. Some have even managed to retake some of the old Giantlands from the center of the plane, because the drain on the fey themselves was enormous, and they had lost too many of their LeShay to continue. And thus it was that Annam's brood was spread throughout the multiverse. The Fey had one final act of treachery, though - in exchange for the Fey's help to break-free of the Titans, the dragons pledged fealty to the ælves. They placed the power of their own self-determination into spherical objects (NO, not pokeballs!), and these became know as the Orbs of dragonkind. With this the elves would be able to call upon the dragons in times of need, as they did for them, but all was not what it seemed. After the wars with the giants came to an end (an armistice, really), the elves turned on the dragons and used the Orbs to force the dragons into egg-like shapes, where they would lie until called forth. They then sent these through the old portals to the prime material, hoping to seed these new worlds with enemies of the giants, lest they return in force.
The Crystal Spheres:
Thanks to the Power of Gaea, all life was not extinguished when the First World was broken. The weaker creations were put into a type of stasis - they would lie comatose in pocket-planes that were 'out of sync with time' in each of their Crystal Spheres. And when the new worlds were formed and ready, the creatures would be able to be brought into normal reality, thus saving them from obliteration. The Sarrukh know this time as the 'Long darkness'. But the Gods noted the dragons in their 'eggs', and would not let them onto the worlds, lest they wreak havoc and destroy that which was just built. Instead, they set them adrift in (Arcane) space, hoping for a time when peace could be made between they and the giants. However, on some worlds, the gods just ignored them, and let them fall where they may. The Fey, realizing they had been thwarted (and also desiring to be the ONLY Creatori to survive into the new age), sent their lesser children - the (Sylvan) Elves trough the gates and into the Prime Material, to work against both the giants and dragons, and to release the dragons from their captivity in space whenever they could. This also had the (desirable) side-affect of removing all the non-Eladrin fey from their midst.
And on each world the history was different, but it also had 'echoes' of the history of the other worlds, for the participants in those early dramas were the same.
Next up, Katshaka history {gasp!}, and maybe even some Maztica {Double Gasp!}
Oh... and probably the War of Light & Darkness, revisited.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2018 22:59:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 22:59:16
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@Sleyvas - my Earthmother & Skyfather proto-myths tie directly into what you were saying about Maztica and kukul. the Skyfather is 'gone', but the spirit of the earthmother lives on, through him. She is distant, though, because of the half-life status she shares with her brother-husband, and can only be reached through her lesser aspects (manifestations of 'the land' itself).
"Imaginary Friends"
Selûne was a young goddess, a Sphere-specific aspect of Sehanine. All 'the Gods' back then had sent bits of themselves to all the different forming Spheres, in the hopes of saving what they could from the First World. Sehanine herself was the daughter on Night (Erebus) and some other (some say Pale Night, but no-one knows for sure). As she began to format the roiling chaos of the Crystal Sphere into something more cohesive, she took to talking to her 'Shadow', pretending it was her sister. The Shadow itself was created when she had asked Io to provide her with light to see by, and it ignited a ball of energy for her, calling it 'the sun'. She loved the feel of the warm rays upon her face, as did the new worlds, including Chauntea, who was an aspect one important world. You see, this particular piece of the First World was the Abeir-Toril, the 'Cradle of Life', where the gods kept most of their power, and from it can be drawn the energies of the multiverse. Like thePillars of Creations, the Abeir-Toril was part of the very foundation of the universe itself. In fat, it had become the Cornerstone of Reality.
So time went on, and Selûne talked with her shadow less and less, because she had new 'friends' - the worlds and concepts within this new Sphere. And among her favorite was the Sun, that gave light, life, and joy to all it touched. But the Shadow grew jealous, for it had developed a personality of its own. A stray bit of something - really a Shard of Pure Evil had strayed into Realmspace and passed through the shadow, corrupting it into a semblance of true life. And it called itself 'Shar', after the Shard that had so fortuitously passed by (of course, that was by someone's design...). The Shadow could not feel the warmth of the sun, because something would always become between it, and the light. It became a creature of bitter darkness...
To be Continued... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2018 23:22:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 23:24:13
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So, no feedback on my myth about the 'boy god' who accidentally created humanity?
And here I thought that was one of my shining moments. {sigh} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 01:08:07
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I love all this mythology, especially the creation level stories. For myself, I’m sticking to the short lore as much as possible because it just gets too deep and too involved for me. I imagine there is a grand plan that you are following and short lore allows me to create without interfering with the lore of others.
According to Maztican canon, however, Kukul created mankind by slicing off his fingers (they wriggled to life creating the first man). I’m pretty sure that creation story isn’t the universal Torillian creation myth lol.
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Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 01:24:33
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Yeah, I can only blend so much together (but I even got 'evolution' squeezed in there!) 
I'm just using this thread as my 'rough draft'. I guess if and when i do finally go to put something on the DMsGuild regarding Katashaka, I'll preface it with stating that you can just skip the mythology section if you prefer (it has no bearing in-game what-so-ever). I just need to establish the 'whys' for several of the McGuffins I plan to utilize. Plus, I really appreciate the feedback here (so anytime you are get steamed at me Sleyvas, check my Sig - you keep me on my toes  ). I am still trying to keep us all on the same page, but I'm not sure if that's entirely possible - you (Seethyr) and Jürgen Hubert seem to have already gone in separate directions.
But as long as we can keep most of it compatible, thats a big win for us and whoever uses our stuff. If they start to see a group of people (CandleKanon?) working on a consistent set of lore, it could become the 'go to' set of 3rd party lore for FR. Maybe put the 'Maztica Alive!' logo on all of, so people know its compatible, or some-such. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2018 01:25:32 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 01:59:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I can only blend so much together (but I even got 'evolution' squeezed in there!)
I'm just using this thread as my 'rough draft'. I guess if and when i do finally go to put something on the DMsGuild regarding Katashaka, I'll preface it with stating that you can just skip the mythology section if you prefer (it has no bearing in-game what-so-ever). I just need to establish the 'whys' for several of the McGuffins I plan to utilize. Plus, I really appreciate the feedback here (so anytime you are get steamed at me Sleyvas, check my Sig - you keep me on my toes ). I am still trying to keep us all on the same page, but I'm not sure if that's entirely possible - you (Seethyr) and Jürgen Hubert seem to have already gone in separate directions.
But as long as we can keep most of it compatible, thats a big win for us and whoever uses our stuff. If they start to see a group of people (CandleKanon?) working on a consistent set of lore, it could become the 'go to' set of 3rd party lore for FR. Maybe put the 'Maztica Alive!' logo on all of, so people know its compatible, or some-such.
That’s exactly what I wanted to happen and it’s exactly what’s happening. Maztica got the short end of the stick a number of times (weird RL mirroring to start off and eventual nuking in 4e) and I was always saddened at how much potential it had that it never got to use. Lore is lore and I’m really enjoying the heck out of myself reading what everyone’s coming up with. I don’t know how the game designers didn’t do the same all this time.
You guys really seem to have a great Katashaka down - I don’t see really how there are any discrepancies beyond the god/creation myth/primordial material. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 02:03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I love all this mythology, especially the creation level stories. For myself, I’m sticking to the short lore as much as possible because it just gets too deep and too involved for me. I imagine there is a grand plan that you are following and short lore allows me to create without interfering with the lore of others.
According to Maztican canon, however, Kukul created mankind by slicing off his fingers (they wriggled to life creating the first man). I’m pretty sure that creation story isn’t the universal Torillian creation myth lol.
Yeah, and my take on the Kukul mankind creation is that he probably created one race of humankind (if he actually created any). Obviously, some others are imports from other worlds, but I suspect some of the other gods for some of the other humans. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 02:07:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I love all this mythology, especially the creation level stories. For myself, I’m sticking to the short lore as much as possible because it just gets too deep and too involved for me. I imagine there is a grand plan that you are following and short lore allows me to create without interfering with the lore of others.
According to Maztican canon, however, Kukul created mankind by slicing off his fingers (they wriggled to life creating the first man). I’m pretty sure that creation story isn’t the universal Torillian creation myth lol.
Yeah, and my take on the Kukul mankind creation is that he probably created one race of humankind (if he actually created any). Obviously, some others are imports from other worlds, but I suspect some of the other gods for some of the other humans.
I’m hoping to one day find a way to work in Kukul’s first attempts, the men of mud (lutum from SJ lore or mud men), the men of wood (Maztica canon lore has a strange breed of treant), and men of gold (I’m thinking a new type of golem since these men were described as being soulless).
The adventure TWA3 Blood Offering is all about one of the first actual men , Camezotz, who betrayed Zaltec and became Maztica’s first vampire. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
Edited by - Seethyr on 30 Jan 2018 02:09:29 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 02:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I can only blend so much together (but I even got 'evolution' squeezed in there!)
I'm just using this thread as my 'rough draft'. I guess if and when i do finally go to put something on the DMsGuild regarding Katashaka, I'll preface it with stating that you can just skip the mythology section if you prefer (it has no bearing in-game what-so-ever). I just need to establish the 'whys' for several of the McGuffins I plan to utilize. Plus, I really appreciate the feedback here (so anytime you are get steamed at me Sleyvas, check my Sig - you keep me on my toes ). I am still trying to keep us all on the same page, but I'm not sure if that's entirely possible - you (Seethyr) and Jürgen Hubert seem to have already gone in separate directions.
But as long as we can keep most of it compatible, thats a big win for us and whoever uses our stuff. If they start to see a group of people (CandleKanon?) working on a consistent set of lore, it could become the 'go to' set of 3rd party lore for FR. Maybe put the 'Maztica Alive!' logo on all of, so people know its compatible, or some-such.
Same in reverse. You keep me ever looking and questioning. Honestly, if you hadn't have brought up that island as Katashaka again, I never would have looked up the reign of dragons article by BRJ. I was also getting too far down the "nyama-nummo are all big beasts" road. Meanwhile, I was making LOTS of them effectively into a lot of dead or silent gods. I think having too many of them active at once would have been disastrous over time. Now, having too many of them active after the sundering (which is what I plan on happening) creates "an issue" that "adventurers" must come in and resolve.
I can definitely see a basic adventure idea wherein the party has to go in and "force some nyama-nummo back to sleep by doing X". Then, of course, there's also the idea of some couatl asking some adventurers to come save Ubtao. It could make for a really great campaign using my tharchs as a basis... and best part, I wasn't even planning for this... its just organically growing as we spin stuff. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 02:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[b]The Kaiju themselves: I still only want 12 of them, but we may be able to resolve this by separating the 'Elder Beasts' from the 'great beasts', which I has as the same thing before. At that point we may be able to keep them separate from 'Thunder Lizards' (dinosaurs). I wanted to make YOUR Kaing and Brian's Akonga the same thing to avoid redundancy, but then I realized I had already respun Brian's into a colossal Yeti, and having the two of them might be fun for a War of the Gargantuas type of scenario (I love that movie as a kid, what can I say). And this is besides the fact that i wanted to have 'giant apes' (like Mighty Joe Young giant). However, I realize now that i do not have to stick to this, even though it was a basic premise of what I was doing in the main city (the only real city in Katshaka).
Agreed. I want a limited number. I want to name drop a large number of them from old times that instill imagery though... but they're NOT active and may be dead.
Oh, and on your idea of Kaeng the ape and Akongo the Yeti... I like that idea, but lets spin it a little more. Look at the Uthraki. It looks VERY yeti-like, except for the multiple eyes. With Akongo being down in the south ... and "perfidious".... having it be a giant Uthraki with its illusory abilities (and perhaps even MORE illusory abilities than a normal Uthraki) would be interesting. Maybe he often poses as a "giant" and gets into giant tribes, and then kills a giant and hauls it out of the tribe to eat in the middle of the night. With the south being near the cold lands of Toril, it would also fit since the normal Uthraki does like cold. Maybe even Akongo is just the ruler of a race of Uthraki (with him being extra large... i.e. size Huge, but not Gargantuan... maybe like 20 feet talk while the regular uthraki are like maybe 12 feet tall). Also, maybe unlike regular Uthraki, he can only assume medium and large alternate forms instead of small and medium. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 02:46:20
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Hey Seethyr,
What did you do with Trythosford during the spellplague? I was discussing... somewhere... not even sure where anymore... the concept of possibilities of gods temporarily taking on mortal avatars during the spellplague and where they might go. So, one of the concepts I have going is with the Metahel of the City of Gold region, and I've effectively made them followers of an alternate version of the norse pantheon with similar stories, very similar names, but making it still dubious. In that I'm creating them having Anachtar, Keeper of Blood Oaths, Lord of Conflict Resolution, Chainer of the Spirit-Wolf who is an analogue to Tyr, but with a twist. Anyway, I was thinking it might be interesting to have him appearing to protect this community from Abeiran interlopers, but I wasn't sure if you'd destroyed this community or not.
Anachtar, Keeper of Blood Oaths, Lord of Conflict Resolution, Chainer of the Spirit-Wolf
This god is believed to be a half-brother of Thoros. He seeks to intermediate disputes between the gods, and his followers often serve similar roles within the Metahel clans. However, when resolution cannot be achieved, the blood oath is taken in Anachtar's name, resulting in feuds that have been known to decimate clans. This noble god is noted as having a single hand because of his own selflessness, though its also noted that he's had a mechanical hand constructed by dwarves to take its place. The story is that he lost it in chaining Kezris, the Spirit-Wolf. This has caused a log of friction between himself and Valigorn, for he blames the trickster god for bringing the great wolf into the world
Also, just because I feel like sharing, here's a few other entries from said pantheon (there's 12 gods total)
Hemdahl, Guardian of the Rainbow Staircase, He of the All-Seeing Eye, Defender of the Metahel - This god is the progeny of Yaernsacsa by an unnamed father. He is believed to be a half-brother of Thoros and both half-brother and Uncle to Moedae.
Valigor the Runtborn Giant, Lord of Chaos, Trickster of the Gods, Father of Monsters and Magical Beasts - This trickster god was found by the gods in a giant's cradle after a war between the gods and giants. He was obviously a runt amongst giants, and the Metahel gods decided to adopt him and raise him as one of their own. His antics fill many stories amongst the Metahel, usually involving Thoros having to fight some giant in the end. He is also a shapechanging god, and he himself is rumored to have given birth to the race of noble flying horses known as Asperii when he shapechanged into a giant mare to help the gods trick a lying giant into building their home realm for free. However, he is also rumored to have birthed numerous monsters upon a shape changing giantess known as Haagenis, including Chupocol the Great Spider, Kezris the Spirit Wolf that will swallow the moon, and Jormungis the Great Sea Serpent.
Besparr the many-legged – Lord of horses, Asperii and Hippocampi. It is said by the Metahel that Besparr is born of a pairing of Valigor the Runtborn Giant while in the form of a mare and a great primordial horse. Besparr appears as an eight legged horse of white fur and a silver mane that can ride the winds, but he can also enter the sea in the form of a hippocampi. Primarily worshipped in Anchorome, his worship has spread to Katashaka with the coming of the Metahel. In Anchorome he is worshipped by centaurs, asperii, Poscadari Elves, Metahel humans, avariel elves, and aquatic elves. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Jan 2018 02:55:26 |
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte
Germany
33 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 06:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
According to Maztican canon, however, Kukul created mankind by slicing off his fingers (they wriggled to life creating the first man). I’m pretty sure that creation story isn’t the universal Torillian creation myth lol.
True, but I rather suspect that there is no "universal Torilian creation myth. We know most about Faerunian creation myths because that region of the world has the most published material, but even within Faerun there's probably no universal myth that explains all of creation.
And even that material conflicts itself plenty of time. While trying to come up with a "Grand Universal Monomyth" is something that will be discussed by sages throughout the world and is thus a useful thought exercise for us as well, we should beware of trying to assume that we can truly figure it out - in fact, I question whether this is even a worthwhile goal.
Better to take the approach taken by the Cthulhu Mythos or Glorantha and embrace the contradictions - each culture will explain the world according to their own biases, and while there might be parallels, there will also be plenty of disagreements. |
A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 10:19:06
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The man brings up Glorantha, where I got a LOT of my views on giants from, and now we've come full cirlce.
Seriously, anyone who was a fan of old-school Runequest is okay in my book. They really tried very hard to make it different from D&D, and it was.
Gloranthan giants, BTW (for the rest of you) I will be using as a base for my proto-giants, which were one unified race, who just kept growing bigger over time (and they would technically be immortal, and very much like dragons, when they reached a certain size they would go into a deep sleep for years - sometimes centuries if the were large enough). They will have been created by Annam. The Giantkin will have been created by Ptah directly from the earth, for more 'delicate' work. Firbolgs would have literally been the 'dwarfs' (runts) of the giantish races, being a mere 7-8' tall. When they needed even more 'heavy lifting' then even those Primal Giants {Jotuns} could handle, Marduk (Bahamut) intervened and made it so the dwarves (Firbolg) could turn into dragons, but to control this change one had to sleep on a pile of gold (gold is an amazing conductor of magical energies). It was this first 'abuse' of the dwarves that started a lot of problems between these groups, and later Lotan (Leviathan/Tiamat) creates her own group from small Giantkin which cause even more problems.
At least, thats How I think it went - I just made some of that up on the fly. My point was supposed to be there was a race of 'Great Giants' (Jotuns) and 'Lesser Giants' (Jotkyn, or 'Giantkin') created from the earth by 'the Gods', and from some of those giantkin dragons were later created. Since the 'Earth' (First World) is really all part of Ymir, all giants are 'of the flesh of Ymir'. Annam had actual children who were the Planer Titans (Empyreans), but there were other Empyreans made by other Gods as well. Wotan was one such, and he would later go on to found his own pantheon. All the Giants would be very similar (at first). They'd start-out pretty small, like Goliaths, with the True Giants growing to colossal sizes. Giantkin would only grow a few feet before maxing-out. All the Giants (and later, dragons) could gain templates (usually elemental, but there were scores of others). Thats how all the giant subtypes started. When the world was Shattered, they retreated into the Wilderlands, which would later become the Feywild. Like everything else, the changes to the physics of the universe caused them to 'get stuck' in their current forms. Goliaths then become the un-templated ones - they are the descendants of true giants that hadn't chosen a path yet, and now that option is no longer open to them (or so everyone thinks). I guess what I am trying to do with them is make them the 'Unfinished Ones' (thats what other giants would call them), like rough, unfinished clay.
In most settings, world-specific terrestrial giants were recreated by Annam with various local powers - usually Planer Titans (Empyreans) that were also marooned in the Crystal Spheres. Othea was a True Titan, but Lanaxis was only a Terrestrial (mortal) one, despite his claims. Being the progenitor of his race, though, he was still immortal like his mother (although this may be due to some unknown magic). Both Tiers of giants exist - Planer and terrestrial - in Katashaka, but their empires are long gone and all that are left are small tribes everywhere (still not so profuse you'd run into them any more than you would any of the other threats that abound on the savage continent). the 'Greater' (Planer) variety will be exceedingly rare ('special' encounters), and almost always solitary, or in very small hunting parties. They tend not to live in Katashaka itself, having come through FeyGates which open & close everywhere, all the time. Primitive native giants tend to be in awe of these superior specimens. They'd be most often found poking around the ancient giant ruins, and they get VERY angry when they see non-giants anywhere near them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2018 20:06:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 14:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jürgen Hubert
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
According to Maztican canon, however, Kukul created mankind by slicing off his fingers (they wriggled to life creating the first man). I’m pretty sure that creation story isn’t the universal Torillian creation myth lol.
True, but I rather suspect that there is no "universal Torilian creation myth. We know most about Faerunian creation myths because that region of the world has the most published material, but even within Faerun there's probably no universal myth that explains all of creation.
And even that material conflicts itself plenty of time. While trying to come up with a "Grand Universal Monomyth" is something that will be discussed by sages throughout the world and is thus a useful thought exercise for us as well, we should beware of trying to assume that we can truly figure it out - in fact, I question whether this is even a worthwhile goal.
Better to take the approach taken by the Cthulhu Mythos or Glorantha and embrace the contradictions - each culture will explain the world according to their own biases, and while there might be parallels, there will also be plenty of disagreements.
Yeah, for me sometimes the point of discussing these myths isn't to discover what god came first or whatever, but rather to kind of put things into perspective in the mortal world from a timeline perspective. For instance, the lore of Jazirian turning sarrukh into couatls in Okoth, then Merrshaulk killing Jazirian, then those couatls going to Qotal in Maztica, but then later couatls return to Chult under the command of Ubtao to fight the sarrukh of Mhairrshaulk, and then later couatls come and drag over the tabaxi, Eshowe, and Thinguth to serve Ubtao.
At the same time, we have stories of Jazirian, Shekinester, Ssharstrune, and Parrafaire... and it says that the first three are fragments of the world serpent. This whole story, I'm initially tempted to place into the time of the shadow epoch, especially the part where Shekinester swallows Ssharstrune. However, we know that the Sarrukh really hadn't formed up yet at that time, so we know that this naga deity died sometime after that. Then we have the below entry from serpent kingdoms that tells me that Shekinester doesn't destroy Ssharstrune until roughly the time of the fall of Mhairshaulk. So, that whole story of Jazirian, Shekinester, Ssharstrune, and Parrafaire probably happened AROUND the time of the first flowering. This gives me a somewhat basis of what religions were still around, etc...
After the fall of yuan-ti-ruled Mhairshaulk, different naga
bloodlines began to favor certain inherent traits more than
others, and in time five major naga subraces evolved: |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 21:07:22
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I went back and edited what I wrote last night. Mostly I do that to clean up grammatical errors, but this time I made some changes.
When Primal Giants were first created, they would have all looked like 'unfinished' people (Goliaths), and as they 'matured' they would find their path, and start taking on aspects of that path (like gaining templates). Ptah came along and 'helped' by taking some of them and giving them ability to grow smaller instead (he is the Supernal of 'space', after all), but in exchange they would never grow nearly as big as their brethren. Thus, the Jotkyn (Planer Giantkin) were created. He also made it so that Annam (or others) would no longer have to create any giants individually - he made it so that the 'plane' itself would give birth to these creatures (at the same time, this ability was given to all the planes, but since there was really only 'dimensions' back then, Ptah never foresaw the shattering of the Prime material and thus the fragmenting of his 'blessing' as well). So from the rock, smallish, manlike rocks would form, and the giants would collect these and put them in a special place (creche), and these would 'mature' into Dverge ('little giants'), and within a few months they would mature into Golianth ('Unfinished Ones'). And "thus the dwarves were born 'from the body of Ymir', like maggots in the earth". But when the Ymir was killed, all that changed, and now the dverge (dwarves) no longer grow to their full size (and this changed again, but thats a whole separate branch of dwarf-lore I have that I don't want to get into right now).
Suffice it to say, that at a later time, when the Lattice of Heaven was shattered and the the lesser races were scattered across the cosmos, Ptah saw that his and Annam's children would die out. The Progenitors (including the Giants, dwarves, AND dragons) would all eventually pass form this world, unless given a means to reproduce themselves. Going to Pale Night, 'the primal mother', he beseeched her for some means to accomplish this. She gave him a handful of her favorite children - the succubi - and explained to him that they were created to breed with ANYTHING, even that which was born sexless. Ptah took these and changed them, as his wont - he removed the wings and exchanged that for the ability to change size, as he did for the Jotkyn. However, since the nature of the universe changed, this size-altering would draw from the lifeforce of the Succubi itself, and age them, visually (although this does not affect them functionally, since they are immortal). And so the hags were created - starting out very beautiful, but then growing old and ugly (as they hit puberty and began making size-shifts). And for a time, these Hags would be the only way in which the male-seeming giants could procreate. That is, until they began to mix their bloodlines with other things.
Cailleach was the greatest of these - she was the first Elder Crone. She was eventually destroyed by Cegliune, who 'took her stuff' (it is believed that Cegliune herself was born from a pairing of an Archfey and Cailleach, and that Titania may be her half-sister). As a half-Fey, she was able to become the first Frost Sprite Queen, but when her evil was revealed the crown went to her daughter, and she fled to Hades. It is said she still maintains some sort of relationship with Sehanine. In fact, this may be when she killed Callieach, to gain her crown as the Queen of Air & Darkness (which she later lost, once again to her daughter (Aurilandur), when her daughter turned evil as well). One of Cegliune's many titles is 'the Thrice-Crowned Queen', for she is still Queen of the Hags. At least, until Baba Yaga has something to say about that.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, for me sometimes the point of discussing these myths isn't to discover what god came first or whatever, but rather to kind of put things into perspective in the mortal world from a timeline perspective.
BINGO!!!
Thats why we do it (are you listening GK?) because if you don't know about all that stuff - and have an actual 'plan' - then when you write later lore tons of discrepancies creep-in. For example, its fairly easy for a writer to come along and superficially look at stuff and say, "Lolth is really Shar" (or vice-versa), but when we 'dig deep' we see all the problems inherent in that. This is magnified a hundred fold in my proto-cosmology, since I'm not just trying to blend D&D pantheons together into an ancient, unified pantheon (actually, there was no pantheon back then, it was just 'The Gods', which included BOTH Estelar and primordials), I am also using all RW mythology, folklore, fictional settings and gods (Lovecraft, Moorcock), religion (current), AND a touch of RW science (I managed to work evolution into my last iteration).
This way, if I say "this god did this other god dirty", and I know that they are really just both aspects of other things, then I know if that's going to break continuity elsewhere. For example, you can't say that Talos and Gruumsh are the same being if they've ever fought over something, but you can say that they are two aspects from different worlds originally, who are now battling for supremacy over which aspect (of the same archtype) will be the main one for that setting. This really only becomes a problem, usually, where evil gods are concerned. They don't work together well, not even with themselves (just look at Cyric). Good or at least neutral types will begrudgingly accept another aspect of themselves 'right next door'. Thats probably what was going on with Aumanator and Ra/Re. In fact, Ra was probably glad when lathander was ascendant, because that made him the Aumanator-clone around. And I think both Aum and Ra are rally aspects of something far more ancient - for some strange reason, most mythos DO have this 'two tiers' of sun-god in their pantheons, like Apollo and Helios. One represents THE thing (the Sun itself), and the other represents all the qualities of the thing (warmth, life, beauty, etc). And yes, even Christianity has it, because you'll notice the religion isn't called Yawehianity.
And Ed Greenwood, as a wee lad, seems to have caught that as well. Or maybe not - was Auantor even his? Doesn't matter... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2018 21:27:59 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 21:26:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hey Seethyr,
What did you do with Trythosford during the spellplague?
You're going to think I'm mean but I had it sacked (1385 in the Grand History of the True World. I understand the need to have some locations that are cosmopolitan and friendly to the Faerunians, but I feel like there were some senseless additions that were turning a big part of Maztica into just another Realms (not that there's anything wrong with that!)
So I had the locals sack New Waterdeep, Qoral, Fort Tussin and Trythosford but I kept Helmsport-Ulatos and Tukan.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
<snip>.. the concept of possibilities of gods temporarily taking on mortal avatars during the spellplague and where they might go. So, one of the concepts I have going is with the Metahel of the City of Gold region, and I've effectively made them followers of an alternate version of the norse pantheon with similar stories, very similar names, but making it still dubious. In that I'm creating them having Anachtar, Keeper of Blood Oaths, Lord of Conflict Resolution, Chainer of the Spirit-Wolf who is an analogue to Tyr, but with a twist. Anyway, I was thinking it might be interesting to have him appearing to protect this community from Abeiran interlopers, but I wasn't sure if you'd destroyed this community or not.
One of my favorite parts of your lore that I've read is your work on the Metahel. I thought they were such an untouched but interesting group. My work on Anchorome has stalled.
I could imagine Trythosford being "sacked" could have been a temporary status though - it certainly could have been rebuilt. I'm just wondering if you are concerned with the distance between Trythosford and where the Metahel are located. They're a half a continent away from each other.
EDIT: By the way,I pulled a bit of an all night bender last night to finish the dragon for the DMS Guild. Here is Acalanahuatzi "The Wyrm at War"
(If you download, please DON'T pay anything - that option is just for people I'm not friends with to cover the art costs I've been racking up with the monster book lol) |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
Edited by - Seethyr on 30 Jan 2018 21:31:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 21:37:03
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Refresh my memory - what are the Metahel again? As I've said, I've never bothered much with Maztica before (and I'm still not... not really... my current interest is nearby Katashaka), and most of what I have is in my head from stuff read over 20 years ago (and only read-through one time, unlike most other FR material).
Its easy enough to say that 'other things' moved into the sacked settlements after they went to Abeir (and that might be fun!), and when the continent came back to us, Faerûnians rushed to resettle their old bases of operation (which you can spin as successful or not, or some sort of hybrid of new and old - however you want). I am pretty sure New Waterdeep fell outside the area that 'left'. I have to double-check that with the maps... <brief interlude>
After scaling everything, the 'cut-off' should have been just below New Waterdeep, but we don't really know how much was lost around it. The official returned Abeir map doesn't show any land connected to it, so some land must have been lost beyond the border of Laerakond itself (although we can play with how much. As for Lopango, the whole thing stayed in FR. Doesn't even come near it. if you look at the official Maztica map, it would just go int what is shown along the bottom there a tiny bit. So lets assume it lost that whole 'connecting' piece that we can see on the official Maztica map - that still leaves all of Lopango that's off the bottom of the map, which is pretty-much the whole thing. Anyone care to see what that looks like - I can paste it into my 'Trackless sea' map I started (but then put on a back-burner because I have a pay-job to do now)?
It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to just do a very 'bare bones' map eventually, showing what that part of the world looked like during the 4e era. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2018 23:04:19 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 21:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Refresh my memory - what are the Metahel again? As I've said, I've never bothered much with Maztica before (and I'm still not... not really... my current interest is nearby Katashaka), and most of what I have is in my head from stuff read over 20 years ago (and only read-through one time, unlike most other FR material).
Its easy enough to say that 'other things' moved into the sacked settlements after they went to Abeir (and that might be fun!), and when the continent came back to us, Faerûnians rushed to resettle their old bases of operation 9which you can spin as successful or not, or some sort of hybrid of new and old - however you want). I am pretty sure New Waterdeep fell well outside the area that 'left'. I have to double-check that with the maps.
They were a seaborne race of humans described in Cities of Gold (imho the best Maztica product ever made) that only got a short description but were ancillary to the main group of humans - the Azuposi. If my impressions were correct they were more like displaced Vikings than folk from the Pueblo |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 22:03:05
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I edited my last reply - you probably missed my adds. (I really need to stop doing that)
I just pasted the map in my trackless sea map for a more 'pulled back' view, and Balduran DEFINITELTY didn't go to Abeir - it way to far to the north (and I even even moved it closer than what the FRIA maps imply!) New Waterdeep probably didn't go to Abeir, but it may have been 'sunk' because as I said above, its not that far away from the top edge of the land-swap, and we know Laerakond was surrounded by water.
Trythosoford not only would not have gone to Abeir, it looks like it could have easily survived, even if the waters extended past Abeir by a few hundred miles.
I don't think most people realize just how small Returned Abeir was - it barely covered Maztica-proper. It didn't go up into Anchoromé, and it didn't go down into Lopnago, but it may have caused some disruption there due to the in-rushing waters.
Would you guys like to see that?
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
They were a seaborne race of humans described in Cities of Gold (imho the best Maztica product ever made) that only got a short description but were ancillary to the main group of humans - the Azuposi. If my impressions were correct they were more like displaced Vikings than folk from the Pueblo
Thanks for the quick response - they still aren't ringing any bells, but I have to admit, I probably never read-through City of Gold cover-to-cover (I pay way less attention to adventures than I do sourcebooks).
Still, I can use them...
I may want to do more with a Rivlands-in-The Realms than I thought. I did a map awhile back, and it was a great fit. Are you listening, ACE? (Dalor) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2018 22:10:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2018 : 22:50:15
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Everytime I read that name, I read it as 'Metal-Hell', and I think of these guys. Are your metahel anything like Metalocalypse, Sleyvas?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2018 22:50:29 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 01:41:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
EDIT: By the way,I pulled a bit of an all night bender last night to finish the dragon for the DMS Guild. Here is Acalanahuatzi "The Wyrm at War"
(If you download, please DON'T pay anything - that option is just for people I'm not friends with to cover the art costs I've been racking up with the monster book lol)
Oh but heck no. I'm paying. I've paid people for so much cr@p on there, there's no way I won't pay for the good stuff. If you feel bad about it, go throw a nickel on my entry
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/189094/The-Complete-Red-Book-of-Spell-Strategy
BTW, if there's anything in that that proves useful in anything you do, your more than welcome to reference it per the DM's Guild rules. I'm actually surprised more people don't do that. For instance, I made my spell lists reference a bunch of other people's products.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Maztica Alive! Workshop
