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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 23:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Kyrel: How is merely acknowledging someone's existence political correctness?
OK, go back and re-read the blurb in the OP. It is not a mere acknowledgment of someone's existence.
The blurb tells readers that they are welcome to play characters with alternative lifestyles in the Realms setting. The blurb is not explictly, directly about RW people, at all, but rather, about fictional characters.
Does the passage also simultaneously serve to acknowledge RW people's existence? Yeah, indirectly, it does.
But it does not merely do so. It actually primarily does something else. Whatever acknowledgment that it does give is secondary and very lighthanded, indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
The reason I feel like this is political correctness, is because I'm pretty sure that there isn't a significant percentage of neither the world population in general, nor the D&D customer base, that belong to the LGBT crowd. For that reason, I'm fairly certain that this is not a nod to this group of people, that has been motivated by any research into the customerbase, but rather it shows up in the book, simply because this particular minority group and their "supporters" (can't think of a better word atm) have brought the matter into the public sphere through various debates in the past few years. If this debate had not taken place, I seriously doubt that this little passage would have been in the book, and that's the reason I name this as political correctness.
OK, there ^ you argue that the passage is not an acknowledgment of the existence of people of an alternative lifestyle, but rather, an appeasement of people with a political axe to grind.
But here...
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Also, if we are seriously going to start down this road, giving nods to various real world minority groups, which population group should get a nod in the next edition, just as a recognition of their existence? The BDSM crowd? The Furry's? The balloon or latex lover crowd, or perhaps the drug addicts or alcoholics?
...you seem to be arguing that the passage in the OP (i.e., "this road") is an acknowledgment/"nod" to RW minority groups.
So which is it?
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But I see no particular reason to include a reference to something like this, just to indicate that the game creators recognize that a particular demographic exists in the real world, and that it is therefor OK for it to also exist in the game world too.
Dude, it's marketing. It's commercial outreach.
Half the time, I don't understand why marketers do the things they do in order to try to bring in new customers. It seems like they're just plain reaching, in desperation to drum up business.
But then, I'm not a bankrolling advertising genius, either. I'm just a simpleminded technician. And I like it that way. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 23:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I've never understood the general acceptance of the gods in Toril to be absolute. Every time I recall it being mentioned, there is allowance for the rare exception that rejects the gods' existence, but it is rare.
Where is this "allowance"? I'm not familiar with it.
If you go back through this scroll and others on the 'Keep, you should be able to see that the kneejerk reaction to my suggestion of atheism in the Realms is to act as if it isn't possible.
The near-automatic dismissal of the idea is precisely what makes me think a similar blurb to that in the OP would be in line for alternative religious lifestyles, as well.
I'm not aware of any such blurb existing in the sourcebooks, yet.
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Even in our own world, there are periods of history where most people accepted the existence of gods as fact, and atheists were in the vast minority. Just look at America's history. If you dig, yes, you can find people in the nation's early history who denied the existence of a deity. But by comparison to present day, they were scarce.
There were a lot more burnings at the stake and shunnings right out of town on religious grounds, back then, too, so it makes sense that there would be far fewer people who would openly deny the existence of a deity back then. It's about survival.
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To say that most people in the Realms believe or accept as fact the existence of gods doesn't, therefore, strain credulity; it reinforces it.
No one is decrying that theism would be the majority POV in the Realms.
What I am decrying is the near-immediate dismissal of my idea of the non-theistic POV in the Realms, given the limitations of godly powers and interventions.
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With the existence of seemingly unexplainable (magical) phenomenon, that even the learned sages attribute to a divine source, humans would tend to accept divine presence as fact.
I'm not really sure what raw, natural human nature (sorry for the redundancy) is, or would be.
That theism and religion have been the majority POVs in RW history is as much the result of political power as it is of anything else. Religion, tied with government, has forced theism down the throats and into the minds of people down through the ages.
So it's not clear to me at all humans would tend to accept divinity as fact, even if magic of some form truly abounds in the Realms.
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You're essentially living in a world where Darwin's Origin of Species hasn't happened yet. It took how many thousands of years for that idea to be published, take root, and become accepted as the popular theory?
Why should Faerūn be different?
Evolution is not relevant, here.
What I'm talking about is the simple notion that if you can't see a god, then it's perfectly reasonable to doubt that that god exists.
If someone else tells you that his god exists, but he can't show you, then it's perfectly reasonable for you to doubt that his god exists.
If someone else tells you that you need to believe that his god exists even though he can't show that his god exists, or else you will be punished, then it's perfectly reasonable for you to feel like you're being unreasonably threatened.
And if someone comes up with a long list of excuses why his god won't make his existence clear but you should still believe in his god's existence anyway, then it's perfectly reasonable for you to think that something smells funny about the whole situation.
This is not ultra-modern, academic, scholarly thinking. It's really quite simple, critical thinking.
Missouri is called "The 'Show-Me' State". It's not a testament to that state being a region of high-minded intellectuals or sages--not at all. Rather, it's a testament to the power of cutting through all the bull of lofty pretentious claims and proclamations, and bringing it all down to provable facts.
Part of me thinks that before there were thugs forcing religions onto people, there were people saying "Show me" first. Hells, it was probably exactly that "Show me" mentality which provoked the early religionists into turning thuggish in the first place, out of frustration and exasperation!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 10 Aug 2014 23:39:07 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 23:42:52
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| Beast. I'm saying that I doubt that the blurb was inserted due to any marketing analysis suggesting that there is a significant untapped market amongst the LGBT demographic. I then go on to adress the statement that if this is in fact genuinely intended as a nod towards a specific minority group, I disagree with it, because if that's the case, what is it going to be next time? Which (minority) group should then receive recognition next time? Because there are plenty of options that can also be covered by the argument that it is simply adding depth to the Realms. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Beast. I'm saying that I doubt that the blurb was inserted due to any marketing analysis suggesting that there is a significant untapped market amongst the LGBT demographic.
OK.
I'm not really sure what TPTB at WOTC are thinking, at any given time, about any given subject. They tend to leave us all scratching our heads, don't they?
I can see where you're coming from in questioning the sincerity of the gesture, because of the timing. They didn't include this same blurb right during the middle of all the "D&D=Satanism" era, for example, did they? No, they waited until now, when it's actually a whole lot easier for them to do it. Yeah, there's been a backlash, as Arcanamach and others have pointed out. But not like there would've been back then!
It weakens the impact of the right thing they're doing. But it doesn't make it any less right, IMO.
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I then go on to adress the statement that if this is in fact genuinely intended as a nod towards a specific minority group, I disagree with it, because if that's the case, what is it going to be next time? Which (minority) group should then receive recognition next time? Because there are plenty of options that can also be covered by the argument that it is simply adding depth to the Realms.
You present it like a classic slippery slope argument, but I don't really sense any peril at the bottom of the slope. So what if they do begin ticking off various communities for inclusion in future publications? How is that a bad thing?
I think it's good for TPTB to encourage players/writers to explore characters with alternative lifestyles to those that we're most familiar with. There really isn't any need to bullet-point every single flavor of RW humanity in a fiction-based sourcebook, but I do think it's good to point out at least the major flavor groups, so to speak. If it ever comes to their attention that some portion of the fanbase is feeling underrepresented, then the publisher should do something to ameliorate that oversight.
Whether that is best accomplished by a brief blurb in a sourcebook, or the next RSE/meta-event, or a blockbuster novel mini-series, will become manifest over time. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:25:13
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quote:
You present it like a classic slippery slope argument, but I don't really sense any peril at the bottom of the slope. So what if they do begin ticking off various communities for inclusion in future publications? How is that a bad thing?
Because you always leave someone out, and you also run into the problem of ranking them as you list them. As pointed out, we've got special nods to the LGBT, but what about to blacks, Jews, Hispanics, and so forth? "You love X, but apparently ignore Y - or why do you hate Z."
In short, there's no 'win' in this. Either you include everyone, and assume people are smart enough that you really do mean everyone, or you're going to have to eventually name every single potential customer by name.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:30:05
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@BEAST: if that is the definition of atheism, then yes, I have misunderstood it's meaning, and so for that matter, have other people who call themselves atheists. All atheists I have talked to, and all I have heard about it, say they don't believe god exists. Not just that they have no need for one.
Not all Fearunian gods demand absolute devotion or you will suffer damnation. It's usually only the evil alogned ones who do. And I didn't mean to "jump on" you. I'm just trying to explain that the lack of atheists (or non-theists) is because the gods are a very active force in the Realms. They're mysterious, but not to the point where people say "hmm, I wonder..." (I probably should have said that earlier). There are a good deal of sourcebooks detailing the gods, at least the older editions. I don't know how 5e is going to be. Some gods are nasty, yes, but others, are benevolent. Eilistraee is an excellent example of a goddess who wants to helpher followers. Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunningham, also gives good insight.
But there are people in the Realms who do defy the gods. They acknowledge their existence, but they don't usually go beyond that. But the whole Sundering event, not to mention events in the past, are proof of their existence. Elminster has interacted with Mystra on numerous occasions, and he isn't the only one to have encounters with a deity.But there are those who are like "eh, whatever". Anton from the Reaver is a good example. He was sort of one to say "yeah, I know there are gods, but meh, whateves."
I feel the existence of the gods adds richness to the setting, but that is just me and there are obviously those who disagree. If you felt "jumped on", I apologize. I argue this because that is the way the world was [I]designed [I]. It was designed to have deities who exist and are actively involved, whether directly or indirectly, with the world and it's followers. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Aug 2014 03:37:09 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:30:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
^ yeah there's clearly a precedent for other ethnicities in the Realms and other settings whereas there has not been for sexualities. While the full answer is more complicated than that, this should be all you need.
I would like to see the Realms be less Eurocentric, but it also gets probelmatic when people try to write for other cultures and get it wrong. Writing what you know but still making effort to be inclusive makes the most sense, but we do eventually need to get other writers on board from other cultures to felsh out other parts of the D&D Multiverse.
I can see the value in adding writers from other parts of the world, but I don't see that as strictly necessary to write great "ethnic" characters. Humans on Toril are not bound by the same things that bind us.
Example: In Byers' last FR book, The Reaver, he had 2 great characters. He had Anton, who was from Turmish, and Umara, who was a Mulan woman from Thay. So, essentially, a black man and an Asian woman. He wrote both characters well, and I think it's actually easier to write "non WASP" (for lack of a better term) characters well in fantasy, because they don't need to have any historical context that RW characters might. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 02:54:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@BEAST: the gods being difficult to understand doesn't mean more people should necessarily reject them. That's like saying any concept that is difficult to understand should be rejected.
If it can't be explained in a way that a commoner can understand, then it should be considered perfectly fine for a commoner to reject it. It's not right to expect a person to believe and support something, if you can't explain it to him/her in a way that he/she can understand. The failure or shortcoming is not in the commoner--it's in the explainer.
If you want acceptance of your idea, then win it, by sufficiently explaining it. Don't demand it, or threaten damnation/oblivion for not believing in it.
And don't be so quick to pooh-pooh away the notion of wholesale dismissal of un-understandable ideas. Much social progress has been made by letting go of things from the past that really just don't make much sense, upon serious contemplation and analysis. I'm talking about rejection of homophobia, as much as rejection of superstition/religion, here.
It should never be the obligation of the oppressed to justify their humanity to their oppressor. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 02:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Beast. I'm saying that I doubt that the blurb was inserted due to any marketing analysis suggesting that there is a significant untapped market amongst the LGBT demographic. I then go on to adress the statement that if this is in fact genuinely intended as a nod towards a specific minority group, I disagree with it, because if that's the case, what is it going to be next time? Which (minority) group should then receive recognition next time? Because there are plenty of options that can also be covered by the argument that it is simply adding depth to the Realms.
Oh no how horrible! They're going to choose another group that's not straight white guys to big up... where will it end!? |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 02:59:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaynz
quote:
You present it like a classic slippery slope argument, but I don't really sense any peril at the bottom of the slope. So what if they do begin ticking off various communities for inclusion in future publications? How is that a bad thing?
Because you always leave someone out, and you also run into the problem of ranking them as you list them. As pointed out, we've got special nods to the LGBT, but what about to blacks, Jews, Hispanics, and so forth? "You love X, but apparently ignore Y - or why do you hate Z."
In short, there's no 'win' in this. Either you include everyone, and assume people are smart enough that you really do mean everyone, or you're going to have to eventually name every single potential customer by name.
Or, you know, you can just accept you're never going to get it 100% right and still try your best.
Again, as a straight white guy(as far as I can tell) you have been pandered to. Constantly, for a very long time. Complaining about other groups actually being catered to is absurd regardless, and the "Where will it end!" argument should never be a justification to focus solely on people like you. |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 03:40:45
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quote:
"Again, as a straight white guy(as far as I can tell) you have been pandered to."
There really isn't a point talking to you, is there? I'm sorry that I tried again.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:08:19
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| i stand by everything i said but i'm blanking this as i don't want the hassle of having my anger policed by cispeople in the morning. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 11 Aug 2014 04:35:39 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Lots of expletives...
Wooly? Sage?
Mods...I saw this coming a mile away. You should have too.
Now then, can you please lock this thread down so that we can get back to discussing the Forgotten Realms and not real world issues? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:15:52
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| i stand by everything i said but i'm blanking this as i don't want the hassle of having my anger policed by cispeople in the morning. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 11 Aug 2014 04:36:03 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
yes, let's blame the marginalised person for losing it at the asshole instead of calling people out for using oppressive arguments in the first place. let's ignore the fact that someone putting out homophobic, tone policing, victim blaming arguments pushed someone's trauma trigger and once again blame the victim.
the thread being locked suits you and favours you. on some level, you want queer people to be erased, invisible, something you don't have to care about.
Actually, I want the thread to be locked because:
1. We don't, generally, discuss real word issues here. And when we do, stuff like what you just posted happens.
2. You're taking the bait that Jaynz is leaving out for you hook, line and sinker. He's not using arguments in the manner that you define them, because he stopped taking you seriously about two posts in.
Instead, he's baiting you in order to set you off, because he knows that if he can get under your skin then you'll do the work of driving people away, and you'll make yourself look really bad in the process.
Locking the thread is the only way to stop that progression, because neither of you are going to stop.
****
Sage?
Wooly?
Any day now would be just great. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:24:03
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quote:
2. You're taking the bait that Jaynz is leaving out for you hook, line and sinker.
mods job should be to identify and deal with trolls. not to police highly marginalised and vulnerable groups when they react to it. i don't think he's trolling anyway. i think he's just genuine a complete prick.
quote:
He's not using arguments in the manner that you define them, because he stopped taking you seriously about two posts in.
In otherwords he does not respct the words of an outspoken transwoman at all.
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Instead, he's baiting you in order to set you off, because he knows that if he can get under your skin then you'll do the work of driving people away, and you'll make yourself look really bad in the process.
if you recognise he is in the antagonist in this, then I'm sure other people can put that together also, if the mods take the correct course of action and focus on those being disrespectful towards and attempting to silence LGBT people.
I have a right to my anger. It exists because of people like him. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:37:01
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And we're done here for the time being, at least until this scroll and it's recent troubling turn in the discussion has been reviewed by the site Admin/Mods.
*Casts Temporary Seal Scroll* |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 05:55:35
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| I want to note that this thread was locked not because of any individual viewpoint... It was instead locked for yet another quick descent into heated exchanges and people failing to respect each other's opinions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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I think WOTC entered the modern age
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