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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 01:42:03
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I have been stewing on a question lately, and figured here was the best place to start asking. I've been wondering about the history of the published Realms and how it is perceived by various generations of Realms fans here at Candlekeep.
What were the most controversial products before the Time of Troubles?
What changes did those products make that changed the Realms for you?
How did you see the areas those products talked about that didn't jive with the new lore?
I appreciate any and all information. I'm merely asking to learn; I am trying to get a picture of how the Realms has evolved over the years from your varying perspectives so I can understand what I'm reading better in discussions here at Candlekeep.
My curiosity was first peaked quite some time ago on Facebook when Mr. George Krashos commented on a picture I posted on Facebook of several Forgotten Realms boxed sets I'd gotten secondhand from my local game store. In the photo's caption, I was wondering which boxed set to start with first. Mr. Krashos was very kind and honest when he told me that he advised against starting with the Netheril boxed set.
To me, that honestly boggled my mind. It was second edition, therefore it was the Holy Grail of Realmslore in comparison to the 3E books I had that were a bit less detailed (but still fun.)
It made me start wondering what the Realms was like to people like Mr. Krashos and those that have been following since the Old Grey Box, before Netheril, and other boxed sets.
And that's where my query comes in, for those of you who came to the Realms before me. What was it like? I can read the old sourcebooks all day and try to imagine what it was like, but my vision is different; I want to hear and understand it from your perspective because you lived it.
Besides the obvious RSEs, what novels and sourcebooks just really changed things from your perspective?
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 10:36:27
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One thing to note is that in my mind's eye view the ToT came raring on right after the realms was published (i.e. the 1st edition was released in 87, 2nd edition was 89). The best 1st edition release to me was FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards. Everything prior to it (Waterdeep & the North, the Moonshae Isles, Empires of the Sands, the Magister, the Savage Frontier) were focused on a bit piece of the realms and usually didn't show how it interacted much with the surrounding area. Then came FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards. It basically opened up the whole Unapproachable East, Old Empires, and Bloodstone Lands to me (because I had not bought the game modules on bloodstone, since those were notedly "shoehorned" in.... so at the time I thought they weren't relevant). So, not only did it cover Thay and its red wizards, along with introducing (to my knowledge) the first idea of specialist wizards (which would come later in 2nd edition), but it gave lore on those sections of the realms which had previously just been a small blurb in the old grey box. There were even short blurbs on thing like these mysterious "god-kings" in Mulhorand, one of which had even been killed within the last generation. Then they filled out those regions even more right after that with the second edition material FR9 bloodstone lands and FR10 Old Empires (in which they both detailed what a god-king was AND essentially removed them at the same time (and those books also somewhat filled in on surrounding areas). Later, Shining South did roughly the same thing by introducing Halruaa, but also Dambrath, as well as a few other surrounding areas. These built out the core of the realms to me.
These were followed up on with amazing lore by Ed and Steven Schend. The 2nd edition campaign setting and Forgotten Realms adventures opened up even more lore on regions. The Seven Sisters was an amazing work on magic itself (which got the tweaking it needed in 3rd edition I feel, but he put forth many of the concepts), plus good history. Cloak and Dagger was chock full of lore and plots. Empires of the Shining Sea and Lands of Intrigue both gave amazing detail on their sections of the realms. Of the second edition lore books though, nothing was as amazing to me as Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demi-Human Deities (all three of which I regularly reference even to this day) as well as the non-realmsian Monster Mythology.
I agree though that Netheril felt rushed. The general story of how Mystryl died was at least an interesting idea, and I'll give the man props for the attempt to make the magic feel more powerful. But all I could think at the time was "ok, so they were all 40th-50th lvl casters running around? But no one else had them?". Personally, I think it would have been better to have had them slightly above average spellcasters, but amazingly creative but also amazingly secretive and capable of hiding from other spellcasters their spells (so in essence, they had their own playbook). Maybe they did this by encrypting their work (similar to what the Old Empires did with "read southern magic"). Maybe they were the only ones to have many of the spells that become the common spells in the PH. Maybe they also had a lot of spells that were never unencrypted by outsiders. Then throw in that they were just amazingly wizard heavy compared to surrounding cultures, and you thus create the legendary empire of Netheril. But that's neither here nor there, the boxed set is canon now, and they've tweaked it over the years to be more palatable (after all, Telamont isn't a 45th lvl caster). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 11:07:29
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| Oh, and must not forget the 2nd edition Spellbound, which was full of more Thayan goodness (for the most part). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 11:12:48
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| Oh, and of all the things that happened between first and second edition, probably the ones that affected me the most were the loss of Bane (for which I railed for a year or two... until I saw Xvim forming up). I wasn't so much affected by the loss of Myrkul and Bhaal, but I did note Leira's loss at the time. I still feel Leira's loss to this day. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 11:30:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and of all the things that happened between first and second edition, probably the ones that affected me the most were the loss of Bane (for which I railed for a year or two... until I saw Xvim forming up). I wasn't so much affected by the loss of Myrkul and Bhaal, but I did note Leira's loss at the time. I still feel Leira's loss to this day.
I am disappointed to think that the return of lost deities is likely to nix my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 12:48:04
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I fell in love with the Realms mostly through FR2 The Moonshaes and the OGB (both 1st edition). Afterwards, the 2e supplements Dreams of the Red Wizards, Old Empires, Bloodstone Lands were all excellent sources that added a great deal of lore. I'll also count the various articles Ed did on the Border Kingdoms as well. Add to that the Volo's Guide series and I just foam at the mouth.
For me, the Realms started to lose something during 3e. Suddenly, there seemed to be less fluff and more crunch. Take the Seven Sisters and Magister accessories, for instance. They were both 2e products with amazing lore and spells in them. Those same spells described in 3e supplements were sorely lacking in 'flavor' with short crunchy descriptions. I see those who came to the Realms during 3e as having missed a great deal of what made the Realms, well, the Realms. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 13:09:07
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| It may reveal that Bane 2.0 was Xvim in disguise and that Bane 1.0 is pissed at him and the two have to fight for worshippers (i.e. schism in the church). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 14:59:17
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Thank you all for your replies so far!
What I've gathered so far, and please feel free to correct or refine:
Dreams of the Red Wizards, Old Empires, and Bloodstone Lands were big when they first came out. They set the tone for the Eastern half of the Realms and set the bar for Realmslore a little higher than previous books. Previous lore was somewhat self-contained; you could run Waterdeep by itself, and it didn't give much in the way of detail on how the region interracted with the area around it.
More specific questions are below.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing to note is that in my mind's eye view the ToT came raring on right after the realms was published (i.e. the 1st edition was released in 87, 2nd edition was 89).
It never really clicked in my head how close the two editions were. Numbers tend to fly right over my head unless they are laid out like this. Thanks!
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Not only did it [Dreams of the Red Wizards] cover Thay and its red wizards, along with introducing (to my knowledge) the first idea of specialist wizards (which would come later in 2nd edition), but it gave lore on those sections of the realms which had previously just been a small blurb in the old grey box. There were even short blurbs on thing like these mysterious "god-kings" in Mulhorand, one of which had even been killed within the last generation. Then they filled out those regions even more right after that with the second edition material FR9 bloodstone lands and FR10 Old Empires (in which they both detailed what a god-king was AND essentially removed them at the same time (and those books also somewhat filled in on surrounding areas). Later, Shining South did roughly the same thing by introducing Halruaa, but also Dambrath, as well as a few other surrounding areas. These built out the core of the realms to me.
So this time period would be where you say the Realms started to be more than just the Dalelands and Sword Coast North? It started to get more cultural variety?
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The Seven Sisters was an amazing work on magic itself (which got the tweaking it needed in 3rd edition I feel, but he put forth many of the concepts), plus good history.
What sort of tweaking are you referring to?
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Cloak and Dagger was chock full of lore and plots.
I've heard nothing but good of that book. I love my copy.
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I agree though that Netheril felt rushed. The general story of how Mystryl died was at least an interesting idea, and I'll give the man props for the attempt to make the magic feel more powerful. But all I could think at the time was "ok, so they were all 40th-50th lvl casters running around? But no one else had them?".
So we had no idea how Mystra died before the Netheril boxed set? We just had whispers that she had?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Probably the ones that affected me the most were the loss of Bane (for which I railed for a year or two... until I saw Xvim forming up). I wasn't so much affected by the loss of Myrkul and Bhaal, but I did note Leira's loss at the time. I still feel Leira's loss to this day.
My Realms introduction was Baldur's Gate, and I always felt like, even though Bhaal was the "bad guy," that something had been lost as I played through the game. It struck me as odd, because when I read Lord of the Rings, I don't feel like Sauron's death is a loss. I feel bad for all the bad that's scarred and changed Middle Earth, but I don't feel loss for Sauron. I feel like it's good riddance. Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul just sound like a cool, unholy triad that make for some good rivalry, stories, and just general evil DM plotting fun. I am ok with Cyric and all, but not without those three.
Leira I've heard of, but having not lived through it, I don't have the experience to... feel the loss? I'd be interested in hearing more on the subject to understand.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
For me, the Realms started to lose something during 3e. Suddenly, there seemed to be less fluff and more crunch.
As someone who came to the Realms in the 3E era, I can't disagree.
I miss the detail of the 2E era. On the other hand, I do tend to view the later books more as update books rather than a revised editon of the lore. With the PDF store and Amazon, I just get as much of the 2E stuff as I can, and use this site and the wiki to update stuff for whatever era my current game is in. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 17:16:57
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Well, to me it can't really be a GHotR, because I joined during 4e and what I saw immediately discouraged me from caring about what was published afterwards.
However there are some books that heavily impacted my view of the Realms.
-Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves and Lost Empires of Faerun. I remember the sense of wonder and mystery that -despite the details- I got from reading about those ancient, glorious civilizations and what legacy they left behind them. It was one of the traits that I liked the most about FR: the vast, deep history that lies in it.
-Shining South. The cover with the flying ship caught my attention and then , reading about it, Halruaa quickly became one of my favourite regions.
-Faiths and Pantheons, Demihuman deities, Faiths and Avatars. I usually don't care about gods, but those books made me change my mind. The variety, presence (gods actually do stuff in the Realms, even tho it recently became way too cheap and cheesy), personalities and different ways of interacting with mortals, that distinguish FR deities made me appreciate the Realmsian Pantheon.
-Drow of the Underdark (2e), Starlights and Shadows, Evermeet: Island of Elves. I didn't like the drow, they were a one note parody of a race to me, brainwashed cratures with no motivation beyond 'power, evil and Lolth', unable to even choose their own life. Those books made them appear more like people with depth, variety, compelling goals and gave them a whole new aspect: some of them wanted to do something for their race, start a change and give them a life worthy of the name.
In particular I read about Eilistraee (I found about her in WotSQ, but I actually came to learn what she stands for in the books mentioned above) and I simply loved her character: the romantic and rebel goddess who fights for her people, the quest to forge her own path and create a place in the world which the drow could belong to, where they could be free to choose their life, be whatever they want, create their happiness and grow and flourish together as an actual people.
-WotSQ and LP. Finding out about the events in those books left a very bitter taste in my mouth, they almost made me consider not caring for the Realms anymore and I still feel strongly about them.
Not only they removed Eilistraee from the Realms, they completely missed the point on what she is about and greatly diminished her character.
-In WotSQ her plan basically consited of sending a newly converted drow and a couple of random followers to retrieve some all powerful sword she forged in the past and try to kill Lolth with it -risking their life and most likely dying- All of this while not even joining them in battle.
Besides being pretty stupid, this is not Eilistraee at all, 'slay the evil to solve stuff' is not her MO. The redemption she wishes for can only come with the drow choosing to be free, understanding that that they can be masters/mistresses of themselves. It's a personal path that each of them must follow.
They are not magically going to change their mind and embrace her and her ideals just because she killed Lolth (which would only cause a bloodbath due to all the chaos and infight that it would bring), or won a chess game. Eilistraee knows it, knows that she needs to make the drow understand that the life she wishes for them is possible, and it can only be done by caring about them, giving them value, affection, 'being at their side' when they need it and showing them the joy of life and happiness that they were denied.
This is why IMO her actions there were out of character.
In LP she basically gives up her quest and goal. First there's the transformation of her followers in brown elves, and that alone ruins their identity. The idea at the base of Eilistraee's goal is that drow are not innately evil, they can choose their life, can buid, create and flourish, while coexisting with other races. Her followers strive to forge a place for their race -the drow- in the world, most of them are proud of what they are, they don't want to be different, but a better future for all their people. It's also a matter of identity, about what drow can accomplish. Instead the transformation was forced upon them: it's like having a story about black people fighting for their rights in which some magic turns the protagonists into some other ethnicity at the end. It just ruins the characters and is out of place.
Even worse, this race change -together with the lifting of a curse which did nothing but barring them from Aravandor (but not from other nice places, like Eilistraee's realm)- was passed as a 'redemption', which totally defeats what the Dark Maiden stands for. She was never about removing Lolth's taint, or some other kind of original sin (she's not Jesus...) or magical BS: drow can only redeem themselves through choice and she can only inspire and ignite the will to change in them. Her followers had already made their choice, they were already redeemed. Pure Miyeritari aren't going to change their mind just because their skin became brown and can now go to some place after they die (they're just probably going to die in the Underdark, losing thier drow abilities)
The worst part is that Eilistraee 'sacrificed' for that, she basically -all of sudden, after millennia, idk why- decided to abandon everything she fought for, to leave the vast majority of drow, the ones who -unlike her followers- needed her the most, in Lolth's hands only to give her drow something that they didn't need (access to Arvandor through curse removal) or didn't even probably want (transformation. And even if the curse actually did something, or if her followers actually wanted to change, both them and Eilistraee would probably not want to give up on the rest of their people, especially considering that in such a situation the latter would be the ones in dire need of help). Yeah, Corellon came down to save the day, but 1) he only took his daughter's followers to him 2)why couldn't they both work together instead of doing this nonsense?
All of this is also totally out of character, something that the Dark Maiden would never, never do, as it would defeat her own goal.
At the end of the trilogy it is made very clear that their intent was to delete this whole, defining, aspect of the drow. Eilistraee's mission is severely impaired, all her followers are changed and unable to even interact with the drow (they would be attacked on sight and lolthites would never listen to what is basically an elf). The remaining dark elves are described as 'unwilling' and to be 'cast down', which makes no sense for many obvious of reasons, and then they call it a day.
Heh, sorry for the rant-ish part of the post, but -since we're supposed to say what books really changed things from our perspective, those events played a huge part in that for me. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Jun 2014 17:25:37 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 17:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In particular I read about Eilistraee (I found about her in WotSQ, but I actually came to learn what she stands for in the books mentioned above) and I simply loved her character: the romantic and rebel goddess who fights for her people, the quest to forge her own path and create a place in the world which the drow could belong to, where they could be free to choose their life, be whatever they want, create their happiness and grow and flourish together as an actual people.
-WotSQ and LP. Finding out about the events in those books left a very bitter taste in my mouth, they almost made me consider not caring for the Realms anymore and I still feel strongly about them.
Not only they removed Eilistraee from the Realms, they completely missed the point on what she is about and greatly diminished her character.
[snip] Heh, sorry for the rant-ish part of the post, but -since we're supposed to say what books really changed things from our perspective, those events played a huge part in that for me.
No worries! Rant understood fully. It's to be expected in a question like this. Also, your rant touches on several reasons why I haven't sat down and read WotSQ and LP yet. (Don't worry, though, you didn't spoil it. I already have the Cliff's Notes Version.  )
I like Eilistraee as I have read her in Evermeet. I understand that that book is supposed to be from an elven viewpoint, and therefore not entirely accurate, but I love the picture given there.
I definitely understand what you're saying about the series going against Eilistraee's character, though I haven't thought of it like that yet.
I'm not sure how I feel about Brown Elves vs Drow. I tend to agree that Corellon lifting the curse like that shouldn't have changed the race. It should have simply opened the gates of Aravandor to drow who follow good. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 17:47:00
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The Old Grey Box would have been controversial if we knew what we know now about the overwritten parts of the original Realms, from the Moonshaes and Anchorome east.
When the published Realms was new, few authors other than Ed had really had the time to understand it. It wasn't like the new TSR settings, which were developed by a team as they went along, or like a well-known world such as Middle-earth. But as ever, there were some who more or less got it right and some who didn't particularly try or didn't manage to. Apart from Jeff Grubb, in some ways it wasn't until Eric Boyd, Steven Schend and Elaine Cunningham came along that the non-Greenwood development of the Realms really started to work.
The original FR series of supplements is very uneven. FR3 Empires of the Sands and FR10 Old Empires expanded Ed's notes into places that were too much Earth analogues, like Troy Denning's Bedine, gamely developed by Ed in FR13 Anauroch. Kara-Tur and the Hordelands and Maztica were even straighter Earth-copies, but they didn't impinge much on Faerûn. FR2 Moonshae and FR9 The Bloodstone Lands were like loosely annexed subsettings.
As well as the Volo's Guides, the Realms strongly come alive in works like FR4 The Magister, Ruins of Undermountain and Ruins of Myth Drannor, and the FOR series. These are evergreen for me.
The 1990s were no perfect golden age: you had tension between how Ed wanted to present the Realms and the various things the TSR D&D and book people wanted to do with it, which sometimes brought good surprises but more often mess. In the 2000s the crunch-above-all tendency appeared and made a third pole. But there is a lot of good, thorough Realmslore in the third-edition books, though I think they really suffer, too, from the piecemeal-author approach. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 17:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The 1990s were no perfect golden age: you had tension between how Ed wanted to present the Realms and the various things the TSR D&D and book people wanted to do with it, which sometimes brought good surprises but more often mess.
Do we have any details on that tension? Any clues as to what direction Ed wanted to go versus what TSR said?
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The original FR series of supplements is very uneven. FR3 Empires of the Sands and FR10 Old Empires expanded Ed's notes into places that were too much Earth analogues, like Troy Denning's Bedine, gamely developed by Ed in FR13 Anauroch. Kara-Tur and the Hordelands and Maztica were even straighter Earth-copies, but they didn't impinge much on Faerûn. FR2 Moonshae and FR9 The Bloodstone Lands were like loosely annexed subsettings.
I will admit, I tend to shy away from the other continents besides Faerun because of their "this is Native America in the Realms" feel. Not saying the settings are bad, I just want to tweak it a little.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 18:38:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I'm not sure how I feel about Brown Elves vs Drow. I tend to agree that Corellon lifting the curse like that shouldn't have changed the race.
What I meant is that Eilistraee's followers fight for the freedo of their race, to give the drow a place in the world and make a people out of them, united capable of great achievements, of living and coexisting with other races. Idk how to explain it, but their efforts are for the dark elves*, to give them a future and not to return it to how it was --there is no need for that, since the drow are already perfectly able to choose and live normally (as many examples can show)--
It's also a matter of idenity, of being proud or simply feeling well about what they are (and we know that most drow -eilistraeens too- definitely are proud creatures: think Liriel, even if less extreme) -why should they choose to become something else (if you found out that humans were originally green skinned, would you feel the need to be like that? I definitely wouldn't want to), why can't they be accepted as drow (which -btw- is among their goals)?
There's also the fact that the transformation not only was not needed and probably not wanted, it was forced and Eilistraee -a deity which stands for freedom of life and expression- allowed that. It is another action that doesn't fit her character at all.
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It should have simply opened the gates of Aravandor to drow who follow good.
But followers of Eilistraee don't need Arvandor, they probably only want to be with their goddess when they die and they could already do that. They wouldnt want to give up their quest and Eilistraee for something that useless (and the fun part is that the Dark Dancer's realm is in Arvandor, and that Corellon didn't open its gates to all drow who follow good, only to the ones who were un-cursed).
Anyway this is bringing the thread off topic, so I'll just shut up now.
*and with that I mean drow. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Jun 2014 18:41:42 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 22:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I was wondering which boxed set to start with first. Mr. Krashos was very kind and honest when he told me that he advised against starting with the Netheril boxed set.
He's right. Netheril is kind of fun, but it's unusual enough that it's better to read it after several general cases.
The same goes for Salvatore IMO - taking the Memoirs Of An Angsty Young Drow for face value and as the default setting leads to rather frustrating trends - especially getting Lloth's importance and scope of meddling overblown until she's turned into The Universal Fallback Villain for any and all throwaway plots, no matter how far from her known interests. 
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
-Drow of the Underdark (2e), Starlights and Shadows, Evermeet: Island of Elves. I didn't like the drow, they were a one note parody of a race to me, brainwashed cratures with no motivation beyond 'power, evil and Lolth', unable to even choose their own life. [...] the quest to forge her own path and create a place in the world which the drow could belong to, where they could be free to choose their life, be whatever they want, create their happiness and grow and flourish together as an actual people.
You may have missed a few details. 
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-WotSQ and LP. Finding out about the events in those books left a very bitter taste in my mouth, they almost made me consider not caring for the Realms anymore and I still feel strongly about them.
Not only they removed Eilistraee from the Realms, they completely missed the point on what she is about and greatly diminished her character.
I won't pile WotSQ and LP together.
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-In WotSQ her plan basically consited of sending a newly converted drow and a couple of random followers to retrieve some all powerful sword she forged in the past and try to kill Lolth with it -risking their life and most likely dying- All of this while not even joining them in battle.
That's SOP for gods. You know what happened to Moander, right? And isn't in FR a prerequisite to have a deity offed is sponsorship of another?
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Besides being pretty stupid, this is not Eilistraee at all, 'slay the evil to solve stuff' is not her MO.
Hello? Running through the forests with sharp objects? Rings any bells? The werewolf hunt scene in WotSQ is a pretty expectable example of their regular practices according to any piece of canon. The tendency to be loud, gregarious, unreasonable and violent at times, especially when startled is also nothing new (see e.g. "Silverfall").
Which returns us to the strong side of the Realms: context. Remember that whatever aspirations and image of themselves they may have, most of these ladies are ex-Lolthite converts, who didn't get much less jumpy. They were raised as power-hungry thrill seekers and rejected "power-hungry" part - what do you think remained?  Oh, and they are torn between hope to the point of wishful thinking and knowing certainly that yochlol are after them. And occasionally try to emulate the surface elves, for crying out loud. 
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They are not magically going to change their mind and embrace her and her ideals just because she killed Lolth (which would only cause a bloodbath due to all the chaos and infight that it would bring)
The transition would be very dangerous, yes. That's exactly why the attempt in WotSQ is clever: it was made during the Silence of Lolth, when everyone figured out what's going on and began to look for backup plans without making too hasty movements. If there's a risk anyway, may as well try and win a jackpot.
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In LP she basically gives up her quest and goal.
I'd love to add a snide comment or a dozen of my own, but let's not derail the threads into repeating the same arguments about known problems. There already is at least one thread that ended up with discussion of whether LP fails to make sense on its own and/or connect with relevant parts of pre-existing FR canon and how badly - there.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 22:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Thank you all for your replies so far!
What I've gathered so far, and please feel free to correct or refine:
Dreams of the Red Wizards, Old Empires, and Bloodstone Lands were big when they first came out. They set the tone for the Eastern half of the Realms and set the bar for Realmslore a little higher than previous books. Previous lore was somewhat self-contained; you could run Waterdeep by itself, and it didn't give much in the way of detail on how the region interracted with the area around it.
More specific questions are below.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing to note is that in my mind's eye view the ToT came raring on right after the realms was published (i.e. the 1st edition was released in 87, 2nd edition was 89).
It never really clicked in my head how close the two editions were. Numbers tend to fly right over my head unless they are laid out like this. Thanks!
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Not only did it [Dreams of the Red Wizards] cover Thay and its red wizards, along with introducing (to my knowledge) the first idea of specialist wizards (which would come later in 2nd edition), but it gave lore on those sections of the realms which had previously just been a small blurb in the old grey box. There were even short blurbs on thing like these mysterious "god-kings" in Mulhorand, one of which had even been killed within the last generation. Then they filled out those regions even more right after that with the second edition material FR9 bloodstone lands and FR10 Old Empires (in which they both detailed what a god-king was AND essentially removed them at the same time (and those books also somewhat filled in on surrounding areas). Later, Shining South did roughly the same thing by introducing Halruaa, but also Dambrath, as well as a few other surrounding areas. These built out the core of the realms to me.
So this time period would be where you say the Realms started to be more than just the Dalelands and Sword Coast North? It started to get more cultural variety?
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The Seven Sisters was an amazing work on magic itself (which got the tweaking it needed in 3rd edition I feel, but he put forth many of the concepts), plus good history.
What sort of tweaking are you referring to?
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Cloak and Dagger was chock full of lore and plots.
I've heard nothing but good of that book. I love my copy.
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I agree though that Netheril felt rushed. The general story of how Mystryl died was at least an interesting idea, and I'll give the man props for the attempt to make the magic feel more powerful. But all I could think at the time was "ok, so they were all 40th-50th lvl casters running around? But no one else had them?".
So we had no idea how Mystra died before the Netheril boxed set? We just had whispers that she had?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Probably the ones that affected me the most were the loss of Bane (for which I railed for a year or two... until I saw Xvim forming up). I wasn't so much affected by the loss of Myrkul and Bhaal, but I did note Leira's loss at the time. I still feel Leira's loss to this day.
My Realms introduction was Baldur's Gate, and I always felt like, even though Bhaal was the "bad guy," that something had been lost as I played through the game. It struck me as odd, because when I read Lord of the Rings, I don't feel like Sauron's death is a loss. I feel bad for all the bad that's scarred and changed Middle Earth, but I don't feel loss for Sauron. I feel like it's good riddance. Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul just sound like a cool, unholy triad that make for some good rivalry, stories, and just general evil DM plotting fun. I am ok with Cyric and all, but not without those three.
Leira I've heard of, but having not lived through it, I don't have the experience to... feel the loss? I'd be interested in hearing more on the subject to understand.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
For me, the Realms started to lose something during 3e. Suddenly, there seemed to be less fluff and more crunch.
As someone who came to the Realms in the 3E era, I can't disagree.
I miss the detail of the 2E era. On the other hand, I do tend to view the later books more as update books rather than a revised editon of the lore. With the PDF store and Amazon, I just get as much of the 2E stuff as I can, and use this site and the wiki to update stuff for whatever era my current game is in.
Just to clarify, the 1st edition realms was in 87 (but people had had many years to learn from Greyhawk before that, and dragonlance came after Greyhawk). However, growing up, I didn't have the money for Greyhawk (and despite what people say, I don't think it was refined much). I did get into dragonlance, but it was too "small" of a world. That's why the realms took off, but again, it came out RIGHT at the end of 1st edition.
Yes, after Dreams of the Red Wizards, we really started to see more cultural variety ... or more to the point, more of a fleshing out of a lot of the areas of the realms that were just little hints prior. Prior to this, the dalelands, Cormyr, Waterdeep & the North, and the Moonshaes were the focus..... and truthfully, they were somewhat similar areas. The east changed things.
As to tweaking of Seven Sisters magic, well, the idea of contingent/hanging spells (or spells within spells) grew a lot out of that work. And I'm not just talking contingency type cast and release multiple at once spells. There were things like rainbow shield which allowed you to cast a spell into a shield around you, and when someone hit it, it affected them until the spell was gone. It was horribly broken though (for instance, I could put a cure spell in it and heal all my friends by letting them slap me.... and there were some nasty spells I could put in it as well). Along the same lines, in third edition, rather than making a bunch of spells that allow you to release spells on command... they made it having to take feats like quicken spell, craft contingent spell, attune gem, spell mantle, etc.... So, that not every wizard can have every trick by just saying "I got it in my spellbook". I could go on for hours on spellcasting, so I'll stop here, lest I bore you to death.
We had no clue Mystra had died. I "believe" we'd seen the name Mystryl though and just knew it as an older name. In fact, the general public of the realms isn't SUPPOSED to know what had happened, but its become somewhat canon now that those "even remotely in the know" know what happened now.
On the Leira thing, I didn't feel her loss so much at that time. Its only grown in me over the years, as I see things and go "man, a goddess of illusion, lies, etc... would just so fit this". In essence, absence makes the heart grow fonder, and Cyric just DOESN'T fit the bill properly. I mean, the man befuddled himself.... this is why I've proposed things like "the cyrinishad book is both an artifact, but also an avatar of Leira that she forced Cyric to endow his divine essence into and thus stole divine energy from him". I've also proposed that she faked her death because Ao needed her for something clandestine.... in fact, something to do with the Sundering... and that possibly she had to give up her divinity to do it. I've proposed many alternatives, just because... well, that's what Leira would do.... obfuscate.... are any of them true... maybe...
As to the 3.0 books having less lore... the problem I see is that the timeline wasn't advanced much AND had they repeated a lot of the previous lore right away (for a 3rd time) it would have made people madder. I think the Crunch was the way to go (let people know HOW to make the realms work in the new edition). Then later follow up with more books similar to cloak and dagger, F&A, P&P, etc... but right about the time that they should have started doing that for the realms, they decided to keep building crunch in the form of new classes and new class mechanics (without figuring out how they fit in the realms) and then whenever those class mechanics were being revealed as broken and less tested... they decided that they needed 4th edition.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 22:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Apart from Jeff Grubb, in some ways it wasn't until Eric Boyd, Steven Schend and Elaine Cunningham came along that the non-Greenwood development of the Realms really started to work.
I can't stress enough how much I agree with this sentence. These exact 3 individuals (along with Ed) defined the realms to me, with Ed's obvious guidance it seemed. It was other authors that wrote the supplements that I felt first "flowered" the Eastern realms (i.e. Dreams, Old Empires, and Bloodstone Lands), but it was these four that took the threads from ALL OVER and began weaving a tapestry that was alluring and believable. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 22:42:18
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| Hmm. It looks like Irennan's already said everything I had planned to. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 22:59:05
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quote:
quote:
-In WotSQ her plan basically consited of sending a newly converted drow and a couple of random followers to retrieve some all powerful sword she forged in the past and try to kill Lolth with it -risking their life and most likely dying- All of this while not even joining them in battle.
That's SOP for gods. You know what happened to Moander, right? And isn't in FR a prerequisite to have a deity offed is sponsorship of another?
That's like saying that something isn't bad because other things are bad too.
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Besides being pretty stupid, this is not Eilistraee at all, 'slay the evil to solve stuff' is not her MO.
Hello? Running through the forests with sharp objects? Rings any bells? The werewolf hunt scene in WotSQ is a pretty expectable example of their regular practices according to any piece of canon. The tendency to be loud, gregarious, unreasonable and violent at times, especially when startled is also nothing new (see e.g. "Silverfall").
Which returns us to the strong side of the Realms: context. Remember that whatever aspirations and image of themselves they may have, most of these ladies are ex-Lolthite converts, who didn't get much less jumpy. They were raised as power-hungry thrill seekers and rejected "power-hungry" part - what do you think remained? Oh, and they are torn between hope to the point of wishful thinking and knowing certainly that yochlol are after them. And occasionally try to emulate the surface elves, for crying out loud.
That's why I said it's not Eilistraee at all. Her priestesses -as you said- are lolthite converts, they are bound to make violent choices, the transition between two ideologies that are so different is without doubt difficult and long lasting. But having the goddess herself sending her followers to basically suicide trying to kill Lolth (while not even going with them)? That is out of character (and rather stupid). She is not about 'slaying the evil', as it can't change or open drow minds, something that is at the base of her MO and that leads to freedom of choice. But I've already said that. What about the sword, btw? A weapon can be used to hunt for food and to defend oneself, not only to harm and kill*.
I truly disliked the scene with werewolves and gratuitous killing. Eilistraee is also about acceptance and open-mindedness (she would be a hypocrite if it wasn't so) and welcomes being of all races. She has lythari and werewolves followers, so that scene was weird to me.
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quote:
They are not magically going to change their mind and embrace her and her ideals just because she killed Lolth (which would only cause a bloodbath due to all the chaos and infight that it would bring)
The transition would be very dangerous, yes. That's exactly why the attempt in WotSQ is clever: it was made during the Silence of Lolth, when everyone figured out what's going on and began to look for backup plans without making too hasty movements. If there's a risk anyway, may as well try and win a jackpot.
You have a point about the risk of a bloodbath, but then -killing Lolth, winning a chess game- how's that going to change drow minds? It's more likely for them to turn to other kind of deities, rather than Eilistraee and the life she wishes for them. IMO it would have been more appropriated if Eilistraeens made their presence known in a different manner: use the unstable situation and state of unhappiness and desire for a better life to open their eyes about the reality of their situations and deliver her message. Trying to help the drow in need of assistence or support after the turmoils and infights in the various drow cities -like her dogma says about sheltering, protecting and aiding the ones in need-. Helping Maerymydra when Fire Giants and other baddies attacked it would have been a very fitting and cool development. Again, her MO is not about 'slaying the enemies', only by showing to the drow that there are different possibilities of life, she can achieve what she wishes (surviving because of help from Eilistraeens might be big enough to at least start waking them up). This may sound idealistic, but she is romantic and an idealist, so...
*That's what Ed said (I think 2006 questions)
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I was asked to create a “good drow deity” for DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, pertaining to surface-dwelling drow, and I did, deciding to depict her as nurturing mother goddess worshipped through dancing nude under the moonlight (echoing British faery traditions, but seeking to make her seem not capricious, as the faeries are depicted, but non-warlike, non-violent except when protecting “her” mortals). Through her priestesses, Eilistraee aids her faithful in hunting and swordcraft as a way of helping them to survive and flourish in a hostile surface world. She’s not HERSELF depicted as any sort of a huntress; she’s the force that brings a stag into the reach of hungry drow, not the slayer-by-arrows of drow foes.
She can personally be an avenger or protectress, yes, fearsomely wielding the sword she dances with, but owes more to the bard than the huntress.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Jun 2014 23:38:01 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 23:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
What were the most controversial products before the Time of Troubles?
What changes did those products make that changed the Realms for you?
How did you see the areas those products talked about that didn't jive with the new lore?
As a resident Drizzt-nerd, I can already hear others groaning as soon as I mention his name. (I'm not really sure that the upset is over any terrible breaking of prior lore, so much as a perceived neverending sanctimony or self-righteousness by the character).
While I know you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, I was initially hooked by the low-key cover art to the 1988 first edition of The Crystal Shard, by Larry Elmore. Gawdz, I miss his work!
Before that, I had felt some fleeting interest in the D&D core monster manuals for their art, as well as a few other lorebooks for their covers (especially the dragons), but I had never cared to learn the rules of the game. I just didn't want to go to the trouble.
But novel reading--that I could do. And so, The Crystal Shard was my personal gateway.
For me, personally, the hardest thing to deal with in the Drizzt books is the inconsistency with dates, especially of the Companions' birthyears.
In the earliest books, RAS didn't even include any dates, or even any sort of temporal connection to other events within the Realms, at large; he only provided time details relating one of his books to the next. When Fonstad released her FR Atlas in 1990, it spelled out the events of "The Icewind Dale Trilogy" down to the month and day, but even it couldn't specify in which precise years all of these happenings were supposedly taking place. Drizzt did venture forth from Icewind Dale during that first trilogy, but his interactions with other Realms noteworthies were basically minor cameos, so there wasn't really anything there to help place any of his stories, either. So the first few Drizzt stories could've taken place pretty much at any time in Realms history.
With 2E, there was a big push from the top to impose a greater sense of order upon all Realms works, and RAS's books were not left out. Ed has described here on the 'Keep how there was a big meeting of the influential Realms designers in the early '90s to discuss the lorebooks The Drow of the Underdark (1991) and the Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set] (1992), as well as Bob's mini-series "Legacy of the Drow", and apparently it was decided that events in Menzo were all going to come to a head around the time of the Time of Troubles, so the official plan was for the lorebooks and the Drizzt novels to be set in late 1357 DR, which would allow for a few months of preparation before the big RSE of 1358 DR.
And when Bob wrote in the first installment of "LOTD", the novel The Legacy (1992), that Drizzt was sixty years old at the time, the editors determined that this meant that Drizzt must've been born in 1297 DR. (1357 DR - 60 years = 1297 DR, right?)
Well, for whatever reason, that's not how things actually turned out with the Drizzt books. It's hard to say whether it was author oversight, or editor error, or what, but the final versions of the books of "LOTD" ended up all taking place within the same calendar year as the Time of Troubles, itself: 1358 DR. This means that the blurb in TL about Drizzt being 60 years old also took place in 1358 DR, which points to a birthyear of 1298 DR--not 1297 DR. (And more precisely, taking that and then paying attention to all those time details provided by Bob in the Drizzt books leading up to TL, we can actually calculate a birth season of winter or spring of early 1298 DR for the famous dark elf.) Marketing intentions may have been for all of the drow lorebooks and the interrelated novels to be set at the same time, but the novels, at least, kinda took a little detour down a different temporal path. "Best laid plans", eh?
Unfortunately, no one at TSR or WOTC seems to have ever noticed. In 1993, the FRCS (2E) included a blurb to the effect that 1297 DR was the year of the first recorded mention of the name "Drizzt Do'Urden", and this was subsequently taken to mean that that must've been Drizzt's birth year. Numerous other Realms lorebooks have repeated this notion. There is a long pedigree of works stating exactly this, right through the present day.
But that's not what the time clues within the Drizzt works, themselves, actually show us. They point to Drizzt actually having been born in early 1298 DR.
Similar confusion exists about the birthyears of the other Companion figures, Catti-brie and Wulfgar. The earliest works give time clues which allow for calculated birthyears of late summer, 1334 and 1337 DR, respectively, for the two characters. But later lorebooks (and probably due to editorial insertions, even Drizzt novels) have given later birthyears for the two, apparently with the intent to make the two seem a little younger than they actually were in their later adventures. I guess Bob was having a hard time visualizing his human characters as approaching forty years old when they were off headbutting King Obould and his orcs.
When I asked Bob about chronology problems in his books or the lorebooks that summarize them, he has said that he depends on his editors for this sort of thing. He doesn't really keep up with dates and ages all that well.
(It probably doesn't seem like that big of a deal to most readers, either!)
But to me, personally, it still irks that the official lorebooks haven't been corrected in order to more accurately reflect the time details in Bob's earliest Realms novels, rather than attempting to push various other agendas. I've seen the problems. Why haven't the powers that be?
I guess these observations could probably carry over to a lot of the other earliest Realms novels. I don't think there was much care given for the timeline back then. Official dates were not provided within the stories. Dale Reckoning had not even been invented yet, as far as I know. I wonder how well those other tales were integrated into the fold, so to speak, as the timeline became formalized. I only know the Drizzt books in this level of detail.
Apart from the birthyear issues, I would say that 3E's replacement of infravision with darkvision for Underdark dwellers also really chapped my hide. I loved RAS's description of heat being seen in rainbow hues by dark elf eyes! That the drow could not only see in the dark, but that they would have such a beautiful kaleidoscope before their eyes, fascinated me. So for 3E to come along and substitute a bland grayscale palette for all of that was a huge letdown.
To this day, I don't like why they did that. I understand that it was done because the powers that be thought it was simpler than a real-world-based scientific concept like infrared vision; they could just wave their hands over all doubters and inquisitors and tell them, "Hey, darkvision works because we said it does, OK?!!" Infravision was becoming rather complicated as the fans were showing themselves to be sophisticated thinkers, and the powers that be were getting tired of working through the problems realistically, so instead they summarily replaced complex realistic infravision with simplistic imaginary darkvision. It was a triumph of expedience over flavor. And they drained a helluvalotta color out of our world, in the process.
What does this make of all those older dark elf tales, which clearly depicted infravision in full Technicolor terms, and not grayed-out darkvision? Those old tales continue to be republished every few years or so, in new editions and formats, even after the 3E lorebooks--complete with their original, colorful depictions of how dark elves are supposed to see. So which version of drow vision is really right, now? What gives?
One last controversy with RAS's works that I know of is the issue of "Gauntlygrym". Numerous early Realms products had described a settlement built by dwarves for humans which had been lost, but which adventurers had claimed to have stumbled across in their travels, here or there. But with RAS's novel The Thousand Orcs, Realms readers were introduced to the idea that what human adventurers had apparently stumbled upon was but a mere shadow of a much, much more prominent, wholly dwarven settlement. Adventurers had found "Gauntulgrym", but the dwarves of Mithral Hall were hoping to find "Gauntlgrym": the premiere city-state of Old Delzoun, with untold weapons and artifacts of power. RAS's introduction of the concept of Gauntlgrym actually being a dwarven fortress rankled quite a few feathers, due to the long train of previously published Realms works detailing a decidedly different settlement.
This development was followed up by confusion over the origins of the Hosttower of the Arcane in Luskan. Bob's stories had taken his characters to the Hosttower on numerous occasions over the years, and he finally delved into the structure's history in his novel entitled Gauntlgrym (2010). He wove a tale that connected the earliest days of the dwarven fortress with those of the Hosttower, depicting an intimate connection between both the elves behind the tower, and the dwarves behind the forges. The problem is that the 2005 lorebook Lost Empires of Faerûn had already provided a backstory for the Hosttower, which involved humans--not any elves, and certainly no intimate connection with the forges of Gauntlgrym.
I think that the backstories of the Hosttower can probably be retconned to fit together, with a little work. I don't believe they necessarily contradict each other; they simply talk completely around each other, without either one clearly acknowledging the other.
Anyway, after years of people sniping at RAS and his stories over these developments, I confronted Ed, himself, about the issue, right here on the 'Keep. And what he said is that RAS was absolutely right: there was both a human settlement of Gauntulgrym, as well as an older, deeper, dwarven ruin of Gauntlgrym. The distinction there between had supposedly been lost in the publication lorebooks somewhere along the way, but RAS's hopes to have his dwarves adventure to the one, true Gauntlgrym some day were totally legit.
In turn, I guess this explanation from Ed sorta created a bit of a retroactive controversy: Why had all of those old lorebooks completely overlooked the original Gauntlgrym?
Who knows?
[EDIT: Fixed some misspellings & underlined a source title.] |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 18 Jun 2014 04:52:23 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 23:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We had no clue Mystra had died. I "believe" we'd seen the name Mystryl though and just knew it as an older name. In fact, the general public of the realms isn't SUPPOSED to know what had happened, but its become somewhat canon now that those "even remotely in the know" know what happened now.
Ok, that makes sense.
Thanks for the clarifications!
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Well, for whatever reason, that's not how things actually turned out with the Drizzt books. It's hard to say whether it was author oversight, or editor error, or what, but the final versions of the books of "LOTD" ended up all taking place within the same calendar year as the Time of Troubles, itself: 1358 DR. This means that the blurb in TL about Drizzt being 60 years old also took place in 1358 DR, which points to a birthyear of 1298 DR--not 1297 DR. (And more precisely, taking that and then paying attention to all those time details provided by Bob in the Drizzt books leading up to TL, we can actually calculate a birth season of winter or spring of early 1298 DR for the famous dark elf.) Marketing intentions may have been for all of the drow lorebooks and the interrelated novels to be set at the same time, but the novels, at least, kinda took a little detour down a different temporal path. "Best laid plans", eh?
That really helps clarify some things up for me. Thank you!
quote:
When I asked Bob about chronology problems in his books or the lorebooks that summarize them, he has said that he depends on his editors for this sort of thing. He doesn't really keep up with dates and ages all that well.
That sounds familiar. 
quote:
(
Apart from the birthyear issues, I would say that 3E's replacement of infravision with darkvision for Underdark dwellers also really chapped my hide. I loved RAS's description of heat being seen in rainbow hues by dark elf eyes! That the drow could not only see in the dark, but that they would have such a beautiful kaleidoscope before their eyes, fascinated me. So for 3E to come along and substitute a bland grayscale palette for all of that was a huge letdown.
To this day, I don't like why they did that. I understand that it was done because the powers that be thought it was simpler than a real-world-based scientific concept like infrared vision; they could just wave their hands over all doubters and inquisitors and tell them, "Hey, darkvision works because we said it does, OK?!!" Infravision was becoming rather complicated as the fans were showing themselves to be sophisticated thinkers, and the powers that be were getting tired of working through the problems realistically, so instead they summarily replaced complex realistic infravision with simplistic imaginary darkvision. It was a triumph of expedience over flavor. And they drained a helluvalotta color out of our world, in the process.
I noticed the change, too. I've read all the arguments on Darkvision vs Infravision, and I understand the logical reasoning behind Darkvison, but like you said, Infravision just is more... beautiful.
quote:
What does this make of all those older dark elf tales, which clearly depicted infravision in full Technicolor terms, and not grayed-out darkvision? Those old tales continue to be republished every few years or so, in new editions and formats, even after the 3E lorebooks--complete with their original, colorful depictions of how dark elves are supposed to see. So which version of drow vision is really right, now? What gives?
Hmm... random thought, could faezress (sp) radiation actually pierce the black and white world of darkvision, making them see "Infrared" in the Underdark, but on the surface, minus the radiation, they just see in B&W? Just a random, imperfect idea.
quote:
Anyway, after years of people sniping at RAS and his stories over these developments, I confronted Ed, himself, about the issue, right here on the 'Keep. And what he said is that RAS was absolutely right: there was both a human settlement of Gauntulgrym, as well as an older, deeper, dwarven ruin of Gauntlgrym. The distinction there between had supposedly been lost in the publication lorebooks somewhere along the way, but RAS's hopes to have his dwarves adventure to the one, true Gauntlgrym some day were totally legit.
In turn, I guess this explanation from Ed sorta created a bit of a retroactive controversy: Why had all of those old lorebooks completely overlooked the original Gauntlgrym?
Who knows?
Who indeeed? I for one like the concept of two locations. I loved Salvatore's earlier stories, and his newer ones. There is a gap for me in Paths of Darkness series that I didn't enjoy as much, but that is probably because I need to go back and reread them. I made the mistake of buying all of the Legend of Drizzt (at the time, that was up to The Hunter's Blades series) at once, and trying to read them all consecutively. I was probably burnt out by that point. 
Thanks for your input! |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 04:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Do we have any details on that tension? Any clues as to what direction Ed wanted to go versus what TSR said?
There are bits of information scattered all over the internet, via interviews Ed has done with fan websites. Likewise information buried in any of several responses Ed has made (through THO) in the Ask Ed scrolls on Candlekeep.
You can find clues as well in the foreword to the updated, 2002 edition of Spellfire. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 16 Jun 2014 05:07:44 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 04:29:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
[quote]Originally posted by Delwa
Do we have any details on that tension? Any clues as to what direction Ed wanted to go versus what TSR said?
[quote]There are bits of information scattered all over the internet, via interviews Ed has done with fan websites. Likewise information buried in any of several responses Ed has made (through THO) in the Ask Ed scrolls on Candlekeep.
You can find clues as well in the foreword to the updated, 2002 edition of Spellfire.
Thanks! Now I've gotta hunt that edition down. My copy is a second hand first edition. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 04:42:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
In the earliest books, RAS didn't even include any dates, or even any sort of temporal connection to other events within the Realms, at large; he only provided time details relating one of his books to the next. When Fonstad released her FR Atlas in 1990, it spelled out the events of "The Icewind Dale Trilogy" down to the month and day, but even it couldn't specify in which precise years all of these happenings were supposedly taking place. Drizzt did venture forth from Icewind Dale during that first trilogy, but his interactions with other Realms noteworthies were basically minor cameos, so there wasn't really anything there to help place any of his stories, either. So the first few Drizzt stories could've taken place pretty much at any time in Realms history.
With 2E, there was a big push from the top to impose a greater sense of order upon all Realms works, and RAS's books were not left out. Ed has described here on the 'Keep how there was a big meeting of the influential Realms designers in the early '90s to discuss the lorebooks The Drow of the Underdark (1991) and the Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set] (1992), as well as Bob's mini-series "Legacy of the Drow", and apparently it was decided that events in Menzo were all going to come to a head around the time of the Time of Troubles, so the official plan was for the lorebooks and the Drizzt novels to be set in late 1357 DR, which would allow for a few months of preparation before the big RSE of 1358 DR.
And when Bob wrote in the first installment of "LOTD", the novel The Legacy (1992), that Drizzt was sixty years old at the time, the editors determined that this meant that Drizzt must've been born in 1297 DR. (1357 DR - 60 years = 1297 DR, right?)
I've always wondered why his age was changed... The original printings of The Crystal Shard had him being more than 200 years old. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 15:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
This means that the blurb in TL about Drizzt being 60 years old also took place in 1358 DR, which points to a birthyear of 1298 DR--not 1297 DR. (And more precisely, taking that and then paying attention to all those time details provided by Bob in the Drizzt books leading up to TL, we can actually calculate a birth season of winter or spring of early 1298 DR for the famous dark elf.)
Now, the question: was that blurb something that cannot be written off as "common speech" rounding for convenience or is that another attempt to titrate Corellon's and Gruumsh's blood? 
quote:
Apart from the birthyear issues, I would say that 3E's replacement of infravision with darkvision for Underdark dwellers also really chapped my hide. [...]
To this day, I don't like why they did that. I understand that it was done because the powers that be thought it was simpler than a real-world-based scientific concept like infrared vision; they could just wave their hands over all doubters and inquisitors and tell them, "Hey, darkvision works because we said it does, OK?!!" Infravision was becoming rather complicated [...] It was a triumph of expedience over flavor. And they drained a helluvalotta color out of our world, in the process.
It was a triumph of lower requirements to quality. As in, "hey, people still chew this" approach of a junk food chain.
The same trend that led to the rest of degeneration: "everything is 1d6", lack of continuity editing, random shoehorning epidemy, and eventually the whole "there are too many gods to count on my fingers, hurr durr" thing.
quote:
there was both a human settlement of Gauntulgrym, as well as an older, deeper, dwarven ruin of Gauntlgrym.
A settlement whose name mysteriously coincides with the name of another geographical feature that isn't an active settlement? Puzzling, indeed. It's seeing people surprised by things like this that makes me wonder whether they have seen... well... pretty much any medium-scale map of our world, really.
quote:
In turn, I guess this explanation from Ed sorta created a bit of a retroactive controversy: Why had all of those old lorebooks completely overlooked the original Gauntlgrym?
You mean, why overviews of basic features of the region usually mention a living settlement on the surface but not old ruins underground that need to be found first?
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Hmm... random thought, could faezress (sp) radiation actually pierce the black and white world of darkvision, making them see "Infrared" in the Underdark, but on the surface, minus the radiation, they just see in B&W? Just a random, imperfect idea.
"Yes, but no, but yes if you really want to, but no, but uh, something" is exactly the approach that created this problem in the first place, why do you expect it to be the solution?
Easy to illustrate: are you quite sure that relevant descriptions were used only for Underdark scenes in all books of all writers?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We had no clue Mystra had died. I "believe" we'd seen the name Mystryl though and just knew it as an older name. In fact, the general public of the realms isn't SUPPOSED to know what had happened, but its become somewhat canon now that those "even remotely in the know" know what happened now.
Looks like this. It was said that Mystra notified her entire priesthood of what happened immediately upon ascension.
Judging by rather low grade of enthusiasm, most human wizards seem to not expect that they can reproduce overpowered Netherese tricks.
And it seems that elves generally know for a fact that the Weave is badly damaged. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 07:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Thanks for your input!
You bet! Always happy to gripe er, help!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always wondered why his age was changed... The original printings of The Crystal Shard had him being more than 200 years old.
When Bob first started writing about Drizzt, the drow was supposed to be an experienced, older mentor to Wulfgar. (Maybe this is part of the reason why so many of the first edition Drizzt book covers made his face look like a dried-up old prune?)
I guess 205 years sounded like a wise enough age to Bob or his editor, at the time, without making the ranger slow or crotchety, so they went with that. At the beginning of the 1st ed. of TCSh, Drizzt was said to have spent 200 years below ground, and 5 years above. (Apparently the 1st ed. cover artists never got the memo that, even at 205, Drizzt was still supposed to be youthful and spry.)
But the more Bob wrote about Drizzt throughout "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", the more he realized that the drow was really his favorite, central character. So I guess he decided that he didn't want to limit his opportunities to write as many books as possible into the future about the character by having him too old to begin with, so he started reimagining Drizzt as younger and younger.
In 1989's lorebook Hall of Heroes, Drizzt was said to have spent 65 years in Menzo, before apparently rather quickly resettling in Icewind Dale. This would seem to put him in his sixties or seventies during "TIDT".
But when time came for Bob to go back and write the prequel mini-series about Drizzt's life before Icewind Dale, "The Dark Elf Trilogy", those seven decades were shrunk, even further. I don't know if he ran out of ideas to fill the book, or pages to write them upon, but Drizzt ended up spending even less time below ground than ever reported before. So 2000's The Icewind Dale Trilogy Collector's Edition was revised to indicate that Drizzt had spent more than half a century below ground, as opposed to the previously stated two centuries.
And when I went back and retraced all the various time clues in "TDET", I calculated that Drizzt had actually spent only 41 years in the Underdark--now less than half a century--and then an additional six years above ground before finally moving to Icewind Dale, for a total of 47+ years by the end of the novel Sojourn. Throw in the five years that Drizzt was said to have been living in the Dale at the beginning of The Crystal Shard, and Drizzt now ends up at 52 years of age when we first read about him taking on the tundra yetis.
(This is all disregarding the write-up in 1996's Heroes' Lorebook, which figured Drizzt as being 140 years old in late 1358 DR, and as having spent 70 years below ground. I don't know where those numbers came from.  ) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 07:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Now, the question: was that blurb something that cannot be written off as "common speech" rounding for convenience or is that another attempt to titrate Corellon's and Gruumsh's blood?
After discussing timelines and ages with Bob, I will definitely concede that one had best be willing to generously round off numbers, now and again, when reading Drizzt books. "Fifty" becomes
"fifty-ish", "a century" becomes "about a century", etc.
But in this particular case, there really isn't any particular need to round anything off. The numbers add up pretty nicely, as is:
* Early 1298 DR: Drizzt's birth (Homeland) (by my personal calculations).
* Early 1314 DR: Drizzt's 16th birthday, at which time he begins informal fighter training with Zaknafein (Home.).
* Early 1318 DR: Drizzt's 20th birthday, which comes too late during the calendar year for him to have enrolled in Melee-Magthere for that year (because the academic term apparently begins in Hammer/January and runs through Nightal/December, but it seems his birthday must've been later than Hammer), so he must wait until the following calendar/academic year to enroll.
* Hammer, 1319 DR: After nearly five years of being tutored by Zaknafein (Home.), Drizzt begins formal fighter training at Melee-Magthere at age 20 (Home.), as is customary for fighter students (Home.).
* Early 1319 DR: Drizzt's 21st birthday.
* Nightal, 1328 DR: After the customary period of ten years for fighter students (Home.), Drizzt graduates from the Academy (Home.), at age 30.
* Early 1329 DR: Drizzt's 31st birthday.
* Spring, 1329 DR: After a few months of drow patrol duty (Home.), Drizzt participates in a raid against surface elves in the springtime (Home.).
* Spring, 1329 DR: Drizzt leaves Menzo, after having lived there for more than three decades (Home.).
* Spring, 1329 - Spring, 1339 DR: Drizzt spends a decade virtually alone in the Underdark (Exile).
* Spring - Summer, 1339 DR: Matron Malice dispatches the Zaknafein Zin-carla spirit-wrath to kill Drizzt, but ultimately fails, and ages rapidly over the intervening months (Exi.); and eventually is killed, herself (Exi.).
* Summer, 1339 DR - Late summer, 1345 DR: Drizzt wanders the World Above for six years (Soj.), eventually arriving in Icewind Dale (Sojourn).
* Spring, 1346 DR: After his seventh surface winter (Soj.), Drizzt is finally welcomed by the dwarves, and decides to settle down for good in the Dale (Soj.).
* Late summer, 1350 DR: Drizzt is said to have lived more than half a century below ground (by my calculations, 41 years or a little less than half a century), and to have been living on the surface for several years, and in Icewind Dale specifically for five years (The Crystal Shard).
* Autumn, 1350 DR: Young Wulfgar is taken prisoner after the Battle of Ten-Towns (TCSh).
* Summer, 1355 DR: After nearly five years, Wulfgar begins training with Drizzt, and is then freed from indentured servitude (TCSh).
* Spring, 1356 DR: The male Companions of the Hall begin a quest to refind Mithral Hall (TCSh & Streams of Silver).
* Summer, 1356: The Hall is refound, and Shimmergloom the shadow dragon is slain (SOSi).
* Late summer - Winter, 1356 DR: The Companions adventure to the south to rescue Regis the halfling (The Halfling's Gem).
* Spring, 1357 DR: The following spring, an army retakes Mithral Hall from the surviving minions of Shimmergloom (THG).
* Spring - Autumn, 1357 DR: Mithral Hall reopens trade with the North (THG).
* Winter, 1357 DR: As the snow falls all around, Drizzt begins solo travels between Mithral Hall and Silverymoon to visit with Lady Alustriel (THG & "Dark Mirror").
* Early 1358 DR: Drizzt's 60th birthday.
* Spring, 1358 DR: A year after the retaking of Mithral Hall, with "spring dawning", Drizzt returns to the Hall for the upcoming wedding between Catti-brie and Wulfgar; in a diary entry, he refers to his sixty years of life (The Legacy).
* Summer, 1358 DR: A few tendays after the disappearance of Wulfgar in TL, Drizzt heads off solo to Menzoberranzan during the summer, in order to spare the Companions from the wrath of the drow horde (Starless Night).
* Late summer - Autumn, 1358 DR: A few tendays after Drizzt, et al, escape Menzoberranzan at the end of SN, the Time of Troubles hits the Realms (Siege of Darkness).
I suppose that one could bend and twist some of those passages to be more ambiguous than they at first sound, but I don't see any need for us to do so. This timeline seems to be pretty tight, by my reckoning.
However, I am left scratching my head with the various outlier time details in the more recent novels which have strayed away from the earlier time details which served as the foundation of that tight timeline, and which have taken the publisher's official birthyear of 1297 DR as authoritative, or which have flubbed the rediscovery and reconquest of Mithral Hall (two separate events which took place at different times) and combined them into one, ever advancing birthyears for the human companions in order to effectively render them younger in the later books, etc.
For now, I stubbornly hold onto my tight timeline and dub those outliers precisely as such.
But there might come a time in the future when I might have to bend and acquiesce to the retconned formulations of the publisher.
What then of all the old lore?
I think that's probably something a whole lot of scribes have been asking about a whole lot of subjects in the last few years...
[EDIT, 17-JUN: Fixed a few things, cited sources, and bolded the dates.] |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 18 Jun 2014 04:46:25 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 18:53:44
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| Irritatingly, we had an opportunity to fix Drizzt's official timeline (using BEAST's research) in the recent Menzoberranzan sourcebook, but the editors cut the chronology from the final book. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 20:39:56
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Brian, do you think that was a rejection of the research specifically, or moreso one of chronologies/timelines in general?
I totally get it if there were page number limitations and budget restrictions that they had to heed. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 02:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Hmm... random thought, could faezress (sp) radiation actually pierce the black and white world of darkvision, making them see "Infrared" in the Underdark, but on the surface, minus the radiation, they just see in B&W? Just a random, imperfect idea.
"Yes, but no, but yes if you really want to, but no, but uh, something" is exactly the approach that created this problem in the first place, why do you expect it to be the solution?
Easy to illustrate: are you quite sure that relevant descriptions were used only for Underdark scenes in all books of all writers?
I agree. I was talking off the cuff, and was inquiring more for a "what problems can I expect to encounter if I try this for my home Realms game?" than I was actually trying to bring a solution to the table that works for everyone. I just didn't choose my words properly.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We had no clue Mystra had died. I "believe" we'd seen the name Mystryl though and just knew it as an older name. In fact, the general public of the realms isn't SUPPOSED to know what had happened, but its become somewhat canon now that those "even remotely in the know" know what happened now.
Looks like this. It was said that Mystra notified her entire priesthood of what happened immediately upon ascension.
Judging by rather low grade of enthusiasm, most human wizards seem to not expect that they can reproduce overpowered Netherese tricks.
And it seems that elves generally know for a fact that the Weave is badly damaged.
So in the Realms, it's not even common knowledge that Mystra died? Mages and people who study Religion might know, but it's less common knowledge? How deep a secret are we talking here? I figured it wasn't well known, but I was thinking it's more like a "Protestants and Catholics don't get along" level of knowledge. The exact details as to why require study, but most people do know there's a difference.
Oh, and Beast I'm definitely saving that timeline for a re-read of the Drizzt Legend! Many thanks! I owe you one.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 05:05:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Oh, and Beast I'm definitely saving that timeline for a re-read of the Drizzt Legend! Many thanks! I owe you one.
You're very welcome!
And please let me know if you find any more time details that can help me to iron the timeline out even further, or that pose a problem with the timeline as I've presented it so far, which I'll have to find a way to either incorporate or explain away.
Please realize that that timeline only runs up through Siege of Darkness, which doesn't even cover half of the full "The Legend of Drizzt" series, though.
I keep hoping to hear that WOTC will want a complete chronology write-up of Drizzt's entire life, some day... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 13:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Hmm... random thought, could faezress (sp) radiation actually pierce the black and white world of darkvision, making them see "Infrared" in the Underdark, but on the surface, minus the radiation, they just see in B&W? Just a random, imperfect idea.
"Yes, but no, but yes if you really want to, but no, but uh, something" is exactly the approach that created this problem in the first place, why do you expect it to be the solution?
Easy to illustrate: are you quite sure that relevant descriptions were used only for Underdark scenes in all books of all writers?
I agree. I was talking off the cuff, and was inquiring more for a "what problems can I expect to encounter if I try this for my home Realms game?" than I was actually trying to bring a solution to the table that works for everyone. I just didn't choose my words properly.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We had no clue Mystra had died. I "believe" we'd seen the name Mystryl though and just knew it as an older name. In fact, the general public of the realms isn't SUPPOSED to know what had happened, but its become somewhat canon now that those "even remotely in the know" know what happened now.
Looks like this. It was said that Mystra notified her entire priesthood of what happened immediately upon ascension.
Judging by rather low grade of enthusiasm, most human wizards seem to not expect that they can reproduce overpowered Netherese tricks.
And it seems that elves generally know for a fact that the Weave is badly damaged.
So in the Realms, it's not even common knowledge that Mystra died? Mages and people who study Religion might know, but it's less common knowledge? How deep a secret are we talking here? I figured it wasn't well known, but I was thinking it's more like a "Protestants and Catholics don't get along" level of knowledge. The exact details as to why require study, but most people do know there's a difference.
Oh, and Beast I'm definitely saving that timeline for a re-read of the Drizzt Legend! Many thanks! I owe you one.
CURRENT realms timeline... can't say, betting everyone knows after the spellplague about both instances. Prior to that, things were said like "no one knows what caused the Empire of Netheril to fall" in books. Who knew that when they said "fall" at that time they literally meant FALL (because flying enclaves weren't mentioned in any lore that I know of until Netheril's boxed set). So, prior to the spellplague, it was supposed to be something where people had vague knowledge of a great magical empire that existed more than 1600 years prior... but they really knew nothing of it. I gather that following the fall of all the major empires at around the same time (Netheril, Narfell, Raumathar, Jhaamdath, etc...) there were probably a few centuries of "dark ages" and a lot of history was lost to the common folk. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Grand History of the Realms, IRL
