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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 23:13:00
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Hello !
I have two questions:
1 - How it works animism in Forgotten Realms?
I never find much about it in D&D. I know the shaman class (all editions) which deals with the spirits. In Forgotten Realms I just remember Rashemen and Chult as places that deal with spirits. Besides these two places, I never find anything spoken in spirits .
2 - In addition, I also did not encounter in D&D what we call nowadays "spiritualism". The necromancy (and the necromancers...) usually deals only with undead... but not contacting or invoking the dead.
Why?
I just remember the classic book "The Complete Book of the Necromancers". This book had necromancy beyond just the undead. There was contact, summon and control the spirits of the dead... similar to the "mediums" or "Spirit Channeler". There was in the book, for example, Spirit Lore skill e Summon Spirit spell.
Why?
Does anyone know more about these two issues in D&D and Forgotten Realms?
Thanks!
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Edited by - rodrigoalcanza on 03 Jun 2014 23:15:04
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 23:42:10
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Well after looking up animism [1], consider a few facts of D&D and the realms. Living plants some of high intelligence, clearly various magical animals have high intelligence, least I forget aware metal constructs to cover the entire range. These alone almost certainly have souls. Further there as totem magic where an elf takes on s linkage with an animal.
As to "spiritualism" one only needs to look at Clerics, that can commune with dead, speak with dead and raise dead to see that "spiritualism" exists in D&D.
If you are looking for a single source of animism and "spiritualism" that you will not likely find.
[1] I found this: quote:
the belief that all plants, animals, and objects have spirits
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2014 : 04:11:34
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I suspect most people in the Realms are animists to an extent, as in pre-modern Europe, since there hasn't been a Faerūnian 'Enlightenment' in which non-animism gains ground. In terms of practice, there are 'shamans' in various tribal societies, including the Uthgardt and orcs. Have a look at the shaman class in Faiths & Avatars.
D&D and Realms necromancy does tend to focus on the undead -- though this includes bodiless undead such as ghosts. In the Realms it is by and large impossible to communicate with dead souls in the afterlife, hence the general mortal ignorance of it. (Speak with dead doesn't contact the soul itself.) |
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2014 : 06:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I suspect most people in the Realms are animists to an extent, as in pre-modern Europe, since there hasn't been a Faerūnian 'Enlightenment' in which non-animism gains ground. In terms of practice, there are 'shamans' in various tribal societies, including the Uthgardt and orcs. Have a look at the shaman class in Faiths & Avatars.
That makes perfect sense! Without the modern scientific view (after Enlightenment) animism is probably the explanation for the natural world and its phenomena.
But only the shaman deals with these spirits (spirits of the dead, animals and nature). I do not understand why the druid can not do the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
D&D and Realms necromancy does tend to focus on the undead -- though this includes bodiless undead such as ghosts. In the Realms it is by and large impossible to communicate with dead souls in the afterlife, hence the general mortal ignorance of it. (Speak with dead doesn't contact the soul itself.)
I do not know ... there are some moments that contact with the dead occurred. In fact the shaman class can summon spirits of the dead. That since the First Edition.
I remember the novel "The Icewind Dale Trilogy: Book 2 - Streams of Silver", where Morkai the Red was murdered by Dendybar The Mottled. After his death... Morkai is conjured by Dendybar himself, who with his magic, forces the spirit (Mrokai) to perform various tasks for the wizard.
What kind of magic was used? And what kind of spirit Morkai become? It was just a spirit of someone who died (perhaps a petitioner) or was actually a ghost (the undead)? I never found an answer. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2014 : 08:15:02
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Just one of my random musings on ancient times of Faerun is that animism forms the basis of magic in the realms.
When the world was young the weave did not contain the spells that were present in it now (they hadnt been researched yet). So real mages were few and far between because they were weak (having access only to the spells they had researched personally) and researching spells was expensive and dangerous.
I reckon that those interested in magic used a form of animism to draw power and abilities from animals, primordials, demons, anything willing to lend their power. And it seems likely that such a form of magic was taught to the lesser races by the fey.
I see the Ba'etith being the reason for the rise in real magic use and wizardry. They catalogued all the spells that individuals from different cultures had created and they dispersed that knowledge amongst the other creator races. In fact the Nether scrolls may have been a way of permanently anchoring the created spells into the weave so that they were available to everyone.
Of course this is just a personal theory (with plenty of input from Sleyvas) on a Spirit Realms project/thread i started some time ago.
Also as far as Rashemen goes (and this ties into my spirit realms again) the spirits there are not undead spirits. They are fey spirits (Telthors). As such they are not in any way related to the original being, they merely look like that being. For whatever reason, when a creature dies in Rashemen there is a chance a Telthor/fey spirit arises (maybe a portion of his soul is transformed by the spirit energy abundant in Rashemen). This spirit resembles the original creature and acts in accordance with the original creature but it is also tied closely to the land and does its utmost to protect that land (like regular fey). They usually do not have the memories of the original creature, but i reckon particularly strong willed beings could transfer their consciousness (soul) at death into the Telthor of themselves.
Again all personal conjecture, but its something i intend to expand and solidify for my Alternate Realms fan mag.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2014 : 14:35:41
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In the Forgotten Realms, most of the "spiritualism" is focused on the deities and the like, so there is little active animist belief. However, it is there.
As you noted, there is active belief in spirits in Rashemen. However, as Dazzlerdal pointed out, that focus isn't exactly what you're talking about.
For the best approximation of what you're looking for, you'll want to look at the Anauroch supplement and the Bedine people and culture. Here is a selected excerpt that might interest you from page 71 under Gods of the Anauroch:
quote:
Under these "great gods", who are not actively worshiped (and so take little interest in Anauroch) are the "spirits of the earth", or "little gods." These gods the Bedine have daily dealings with: they are the spirits that the Bedine believe to inhabit every place or feature of the desert. The Bedine worship these demigods (largely by the sacrifice of camels or treasure), and they are very real, if seldom seen. Every oasis except those recently created by the Zhentarim, or as yet undiscovered by the Bedine has its Place Spirit, as do most other major desert features.
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Two sample Place Spirits are described here:
El Ma'ra Dat-ur Ojhogo ( = "The tall god who lets men sit upon his head") and Rahalat.
El Ma'ra inhabits the sandstone spire that bears his name. This is a lone spire of yellow sandstone (described in "The Sword" chapter of this book), which stands near an oasis, and serves Bedine as a lookout-place. A fall from the spire will kill most men, and El Ma'ra can try to throw an unwanted being off. ... Bedine lookouts atop the spire who pray to El Ma'ra and sacrifice a drop of their drinking water to him (let it fall on him) can see the desert below clearly, even when the sands blow. (This ensures clarity of sight; it does not reveal what is magically concealed or extend one#146;s range of vision.)
Rahalat was a Bedine sorceress abandoned at a mountain oasis by her tribe. She used magic to prevent Bedine from using the oasis, until a tribe murdered her to get to the water. The oasis spring turned to blood, and any who drank from it for ten years perished. Now, every tribe that camps at the oasis (which bears her name) must sacrifice a camel to her, or the water goes bad.
Rahalat's herd of goats still lives on the mountain. The goddess warns away those who approach too closely by causing the hollow knell of goat bells to ring in their minds.
Rahalat's manifestation can appear in the oasis or on the mountain. She manifests as a silent, translucent white floating image, looking as she did in life: an unveiled Bedine woman her face young and strong-featured. Her face has a weary, lonely, heartbroken appearance. She cannot be turned or dispelled, and speaks only in the minds of those she meets. If she wishes, non-Bedine who are present cannot see her.
I think this is a close approximation of what you're going for... probably the best one in the Realms as Rashaman spirits are more fey-centered.
I think it's reasonable to believe that a Shaman like character could "awaken" or "bind" spirits to a certain place or object with the proper ritual. Certain powerful spirits may be beyond them, of course.
I don't believe that this would be outside of the canon possibility. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 00:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just one of my random musings on ancient times of Faerun is that animism forms the basis of magic in the realms.
When the world was young the weave did not contain the spells that were present in it now (they hadnt been researched yet). So real mages were few and far between because they were weak (having access only to the spells they had researched personally) and researching spells was expensive and dangerous.
I reckon that those interested in magic used a form of animism to draw power and abilities from animals, primordials, demons, anything willing to lend their power. And it seems likely that such a form of magic was taught to the lesser races by the fey.
I see the Ba'etith being the reason for the rise in real magic use and wizardry. They catalogued all the spells that individuals from different cultures had created and they dispersed that knowledge amongst the other creator races. In fact the Nether scrolls may have been a way of permanently anchoring the created spells into the weave so that they were available to everyone.
Of course this is just a personal theory (with plenty of input from Sleyvas) on a Spirit Realms project/thread i started some time ago.
Also as far as Rashemen goes (and this ties into my spirit realms again) the spirits there are not undead spirits. They are fey spirits (Telthors). As such they are not in any way related to the original being, they merely look like that being. For whatever reason, when a creature dies in Rashemen there is a chance a Telthor/fey spirit arises (maybe a portion of his soul is transformed by the spirit energy abundant in Rashemen). This spirit resembles the original creature and acts in accordance with the original creature but it is also tied closely to the land and does its utmost to protect that land (like regular fey). They usually do not have the memories of the original creature, but i reckon particularly strong willed beings could transfer their consciousness (soul) at death into the Telthor of themselves.
Again all personal conjecture, but its something i intend to expand and solidify for my Alternate Realms fan mag.
Just an aside on Telthors. There is canon references that seem to show that they are somehow "linked" to the spirit of the old person and have knowledge of them. Some telthors are of Rashemi heroes, and these heroes tend to remember their past (now, how well they remember their past is the question..... because a simulacrum ALSO remembers the past of the individual it was created from, but it isn't the same as the real person).
Hmmmmm..... boy that just makes me wonder..... are Telthors some kind of feywild-powered simulacrum that's only half in this world? They are originally described as "incorporeal".... wouldn't it be interesting if somehow they didn't actually exist on the ethereal plane (as normal incorporeality implies), but rather the feywild... and yet they interact with Toril. If so, this could explain why they don't leave Rashemen (they can only cross over where the feywild and Toril are actually transitive to one another). Of course, the question then becomes "what portion of the feywild is actually transitive to portions of Faerun?". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2014 : 19:18:36
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| Rodigro, have a look here and on the following pages of the thread for comments on place-spirits. |
Edited by - Faraer on 14 Jun 2014 20:10:51 |
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2014 : 16:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Rodigro, have a look here and on the following pages of the thread for comments on place-spirits.
Thanks everyone ... the answers are very helpful! |
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Animism e Spiritualism in Realms
