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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Those stories would have been better as stand-alone or trilogies, the authors would have had more room to explain details, develop characters and events and do their thing, even possibly resulting in a more enjoyable experience, IMO. If you take the books and remove their label about 'THE SUNDERING', very little would change, according to what I've understood.
As I see, that was the whole point of it. The Sundering (novel line) isn't really about the story of The Sundering (what's happening in the Realms). Sure, it'll include a lot of elements from it, but it's not the point. I think some people are misinterpreting what Mearls said. If you assume he was making any sense, what he meant is that the Sundering product line is done. You won't see Sundering logos anywhere anymore. But obviously the whole story hasn't been told yet, and that's because it can't be told in a novel or adventure, it has to be told in a campaign book, with top-down god's eye view - it has to be told in the 5e FRCS. That's what they have to do if they have any sense.
Edit: typos |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 06 Jun 2014 00:35:38 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Those stories would have been better as stand-alone or trilogies, the authors would have had more room to explain details, develop characters and events and do their thing, even possibly resulting in a more enjoyable experience, IMO. If you take the books and remove their label about 'THE SUNDERING', very little would change, according to what I've understood.
As I see, that was the whole point of it. The Sundering (novel line) isn't really about the story of The Sundering (what's happening in the Realms).
Exactly. However when you label and hype something as THE SUNDERING, it is reasonable to expect at least some metaplot. So my point is: it's not that people are nuts and complained because they think that QQing is cool, it's that The Sundering is not what its name and marketing could lead to think.
I hope I managed to explain myself this time. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:39:07
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But Irennan, the metaplot isn't unexplained, if you've read The Herald.
In that novel, Larloch tells El a lot about it, Mystra tells him something about it, Shar tells Telamont something about it, and the two sisters in Candlekeep argue with El about it...so we as readers may not known all the details of what the Sundering did in this or that location in the Realms, or the planetary mechanics, if I may misuse a phrase, of Abeir and Toril coming apart, but we end up knowing a lot of what the gods were pushing mortals to do (and all of the fighting that resulted).
If you were looking for a great map and explanatory overview of how the Realms turned out, once the Sundering was done, I would love that too, but we were told early on in the Sundering process at GenCon panels that the novels wouldn't be "about" those things - - so I'm hoping the 5th Edition Realms sourcebooks (or whatever format products will be the root Realms products going forward) will cover those things.
I get your frustration, but there wasn't false advertising if you listened to the GenCon stuff. I recall Ed explaining that the novels will be "over the shoulder POV of mortal protagonists as they live through the Sundering, 'on the ground,' so 'you are there' as it happens, to experience it as vividly, and as confusingly, as they do."
And Greg Leeds, the president of Wizards, was there and was smiling and nodding (this was at the Indiana Roof Ballroom "Night of D&D" party event, in the long lines of authors autographing), which confirmed it for me. Very much the same thing was said at the panels, too, but I didn't see Mr. Leeds at those.
So we were told what the novels would cover, and that's JUST what we got.
Believe me, I ache to know more of the "why," and which gods and countries and cities survived or returned or have gone away for good, too, but . . . we're just going to have to wait and see.
BB |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:45:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
I get your frustration, but there wasn't false advertising if you listened to the GenCon stuff.
If you read my post, I've never said that, but the marketing and hype is definitely there (not that I'm blamig them for it, every corporate does, but I'm attributing to it the fact that people's expectancy wasn't met).
As for the metaplot, idk what was said in the Herald, but -AFAIK- the other stories explained very little about it. Does Ed's book say something more than 'Ao does his magic, stuff gets fixed and Abeir and Toril are separated again'? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jun 2014 00:50:10 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2014 : 20:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by hobbitfan
Unless you played in one of the organized play modules or read the 6 novels, the Sundering doesn't seem to have a presence at all.
It seems like they could have engaged the fans more....
With what? DDI is a pathetic product. They didn't even both releasing the third Sundering adventure module as a printed product and they're transitioning into a new edition.
The Sundering is just a marketing gimmick to right a few wrongs they think will make everything ok again in the eyes of the fans that hit eject for Golarion. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 08 Jun 2014 20:45:03 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 05:33:19
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As always the fiction side is driving the bus.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 06:22:08
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The paucity of information is a little frustrating to me.
What are they doing with the Realms to draw back lapsed players?
What are they doing to attract new players?
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Edited by - hobbitfan on 09 Jun 2014 06:36:52 |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 07:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by hobbitfan
The paucity of information is a little frustrating to me.
What are they doing with the Realms to draw back lapsed players?
What are they doing to attract new players?
From what I've seen and heard recently, the answers to both of your questions would be either, "As little as possible," or, "Nothing at all".
EDIT: Sorry for the rather negative statement I wrote, it's just that I'm as frustrated about this as you. |
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 09 Jun 2014 08:06:07 |
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Rils
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 16:56:22
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| I respectfully disagree. The Realms is unashamedly their flagship setting for the release of the new edition. The Starter Set adventure is FR, the first two published adventures are FR, Mearls said that even the examples in the DMG are FR, the new Organized Play system "League of Adventurers" is FR with clear factions like the Harpers, Zhentarim and Emerald Enclave to join, etc. Even related transmedia releases like computer games are FR. Every single product and system that WotC has announced to date for the 5th ed release involves the Realms. |
Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 22:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rils
I respectfully disagree. The Realms is unashamedly their flagship setting for the release of the new edition. The Starter Set adventure is FR, the first two published adventures are FR, Mearls said that even the examples in the DMG are FR, the new Organized Play system "League of Adventurers" is FR with clear factions like the Harpers, Zhentarim and Emerald Enclave to join, etc. Even related transmedia releases like computer games are FR. Every single product and system that WotC has announced to date for the 5th ed release involves the Realms.
Rils makes a really good point here. They're doing a lot to reach the younger players via media that will appeal to their age category. For the older players, they've released tons of old products in their PDF store. Additonally, while it isn't Realms-specific, they have reprinted OD&D, 2E, and 3.5 core books for those of us who's gaming resources are getting a little worn from use.
Also, it does seem to be that their Primary focus right now is the Core Books. The Sundering novels and FR adventures are there to tide you over until the Core has had its.spotlight time.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2014 : 05:00:29
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I could be wrong, but I guess my whole point here is I'm getting a good sensation from the way things are being done. I'll try to explain why.
I want there to be a 5e FRCS that is very good (or some equivalent product or series). Even if it won't make me like the new era more than the 1300s (I consider that pretty much an impossibility), it would probably ensure that more material keeps being produced for the Realms, lots of which I will have fun reading.
It makes complete sense that such a book needs a long production schedule, and that it needs to be launched a good bit after the 5e rules, so that it can have all the attention it deserves from the producer.
It makes a lot of sense that anything produced before this book will touch the Realms tangentially. These novels and adventures shouldn't be showing all the changes to the Realms, because that needs to be done properly, in a setting book or similar format.
It seems highly unlikely that WotC will drive the FR as its flagship setting and give people nothing but tangential material in novels, adventures and starter sets to work with. So that, for me, is a sign there is (or will be) some major work being done on a setting book.
As I said, I could be wrong, but if WotC tries to sell the FR to anyone with only what they're showing so far, then it's extremely likely to fail miserably, which is what some people here seem to be inferring. I prefer to take the fact that this is so obviously unworkable as a sign that it probably won't be done, rather than that it will be.
This is speculation, however, What we can analyse, though, is if WotC is doing what they announced. And I've argued several times that they are, and I don't fell in the least bit cheated by the way they have taken the Realms this year, it's all pretty much exactly what they said they'd be doing. Now they aren't saying much about the future anymore, except for a few statements that it should be more well-established, with less meaningless revolutions, recover some of the old flavour, etc. So going by the fact that they stayed true to the Sundering, we can hope to presume they will stay true to their other promises as well. Of course, I'm not putting any money on it, but hope is pretty cheap. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2014 : 05:48:17
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| You make a good point, Maploq, but I think the disappointment--or at least mine--comes from the hype they built up around the novels themselves. They said all this stuff was going to happen, but the Sundering was really a backdrop for other events. Now, most of the novels were good, and I hope there are sequels, but they built all this greatness around the Sundering, and it wasn't what I expected. Of course we don't know the full extent of things, and won't until the campaigns come out, so maybe it is too early to judge, and I did enjoy the novels, but I think the "official" 5e material will be post-Sundering, and since all thr build-up had been about the Sundering, people are thinking "that's it?" |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2014 : 13:51:45
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I made one last attempt at getting the Sundering Novels at my local B&N. Not only didn't they have ANY, but the 'gaming shelf' got even worse (the one for D&D now is half DL, and half Drizzt, with NOTHING ELSE). I searched every section of the store, TWICE, to no avail.
I decided to speak to someone in charge this time, and told her how much better Borders used to be. With a derisive look, she said "Barnes & Noble is a MATURE store - we cater to people who enjoy literature, not pulpy garbage". I didn't even respond... i didn't know how to. This woman just decided what everyone else SHOULD be reading, and acted like that was perfectly normal. 
Okay, I think I've described this particular store a few times - bottom floor is half 'gift shop' (with things like coffee mugs and reading lights), and the other half is split half 'new releases/best sellers', and gaming and a snack shop. So the actual book section on the lower floor is 1/4 the space (and is shared by a couple racks of 'hot music CDs'). Upstairs is 3/4 children's books (the expensive kind with toys and other gimmickry thrown in to make kids want them, and rich grandparents too busy to actual bother finding out the kid's interests are). The final 1/4 of that floor is the actual 'book store', and there is just two rows of scify/fantasy (mixed with horror, of course). There are two more rows of fiction, and the rest (just a couple more rows) are the non-fiction stuff (things like cookbooks and self-help crap).
THAT is her definition of a 'mature book store' - 3/4 of the actual book store being over-priced children's books (most of which are more 'toy' then book). The place is HUGE, and has hardly any books at all. I've been in tiny little bookshops that had more to offer.
I hate to order books online, and I don't want to move. I am not sure what to do at this point - I fear I may have to give-up reading altogether. And I am way to old to get used to this new-fangled 'kindle-thing'. I may have to just get rich and open-up my own damn bookstore. 
Guess I'll have to start ordering books at Amazon... it so weird to me to not be able to browse an actual store and FEEL the books. I think the world has lost something very special. Perhaps I'll find a very 'mature' 3-year-old to give my B&N giftcard to... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jun 2014 13:55:35 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2014 : 16:50:49
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| Sorry you're having such trouble, Markustay. I order books from Amazon a lot, and love it, but I also shop at my local B&N store. Their fantasy section is pretty good, but I too have noticed a lot of their FR books are Drizzt. However, I have been able to find the Sundering books. They're usually in the new releases in Fantasy and Sci-Fi section. I usually snag them on the day they are released though, so maybe that's why. But I use Amazon a lot, and like them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2014 : 16:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
You make a good point, Maploq, but I think the disappointment--or at least mine--comes from the hype they built up around the novels themselves. They said all this stuff was going to happen, but the Sundering was really a backdrop for other events. Now, most of the novels were good, and I hope there are sequels, but they built all this greatness around the Sundering, and it wasn't what I expected. Of course we don't know the full extent of things, and won't until the campaigns come out, so maybe it is too early to judge, and I did enjoy the novels, but I think the "official" 5e material will be post-Sundering, and since all thr build-up had been about the Sundering, people are thinking "that's it?"
Here's the thing: Some of us here (probably most) do the campaigns and stuff like that, I for one, do not. So from a novel standpoint, this is perhaps a "that's it?" moment for me. I'm sure we'll see a continuation of these storylines, but I'll probably never get the meat and potatoes of what the Sundering was really about. I got more meat and potatoes of what the Time of Troubles was about in the Avatar Trilogy. The Sundering series just offered me a plain, boring salad.
I haven't yet read The Herald, but there is no way that the book (as great it may/may not be) can save the series from my point of view. This series, as a whole, was a complete flop. The Companions and The Godborn were great reads to start it off, but it was all down hill, so far, from there. I didn't care for The Adversary at all, The Reaver wasn't that much better and The Sentinel was just ok enough that I might follow Kleef Kenric's story forward if there is one.
One thing that irks me off the most about the Sundering is that it cost us the Cycle of Night trilogy.
Just my $3.37 worth in gas. |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 06:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I made one last attempt at getting the Sundering Novels at my local B&N. Not only didn't they have ANY, but the 'gaming shelf' got even worse (the one for D&D now is half DL, and half Drizzt, with NOTHING ELSE). I searched every section of the store, TWICE, to no avail.
I decided to speak to someone in charge this time, and told her how much better Borders used to be. With a derisive look, she said "Barnes & Noble is a MATURE store - we cater to people who enjoy literature, not pulpy garbage". I didn't even respond... i didn't know how to. This woman just decided what everyone else SHOULD be reading, and acted like that was perfectly normal.
Okay, I think I've described this particular store a few times - bottom floor is half 'gift shop' (with things like coffee mugs and reading lights), and the other half is split half 'new releases/best sellers', and gaming and a snack shop. So the actual book section on the lower floor is 1/4 the space (and is shared by a couple racks of 'hot music CDs'). Upstairs is 3/4 children's books (the expensive kind with toys and other gimmickry thrown in to make kids want them, and rich grandparents too busy to actual bother finding out the kid's interests are). The final 1/4 of that floor is the actual 'book store', and there is just two rows of scify/fantasy (mixed with horror, of course). There are two more rows of fiction, and the rest (just a couple more rows) are the non-fiction stuff (things like cookbooks and self-help crap).
THAT is her definition of a 'mature book store' - 3/4 of the actual book store being over-priced children's books (most of which are more 'toy' then book). The place is HUGE, and has hardly any books at all. I've been in tiny little bookshops that had more to offer.
I hate to order books online, and I don't want to move. I am not sure what to do at this point - I fear I may have to give-up reading altogether. And I am way to old to get used to this new-fangled 'kindle-thing'. I may have to just get rich and open-up my own damn bookstore.
Guess I'll have to start ordering books at Amazon... it so weird to me to not be able to browse an actual store and FEEL the books. I think the world has lost something very special. Perhaps I'll find a very 'mature' 3-year-old to give my B&N giftcard to...
I absolutely feel your pain! 
My town used to have a Walden Books, a Borders, a B&N, and a Books-a-Million. Now all we have is the B&N and they have ALWAYS had a piss-poor excuse of a fantasy section.
Luckly, we also have some amazing used books stores that tend to keep up with new releases as well. Otherwise, I don't know what I'd do! (Also not very into this e-reader craze - I refuse to purchase an e-reader of some kind, just to have to spend as much [or even more sometimes!] money on a digital book as I would on a physical one. It's nonsense!) |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
Edited by - Neo2151 on 17 Jun 2014 06:58:44 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 08:49:27
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While I have really enjoyed reading the Sundering novels , I have to agree that I was expecting more bang for my buck.
But it seems like the series pretty much just focused on hitting the reset button and bringing back 3e stuff. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 05:30:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It's basically the only way to fix the setting short of doing a complete reboot. In fact, I would actually look at the Sundering as a "soft reboot".
Basically, imagine picking up the Grey Box for the first time. All that you know about the Realms is pretty much there on the page. The Realms is just going to move forward as if it were fresh and new all over again - wiping away the crap that accumulated over the years from one RSE after another.
Now, I think it might be legitimate to argue that a straight up reboot might have been better. However, that isn't the direction that people wanted to go, and I think I largely agree with that decision. Mostly due to the novels. If it were not for the novels and their characters, I'd be pretty much pro-reboot.
We would have landed in the same pile of crap had there been a reboot anyway. People would have claimed it was throwing away previously established lore.
So, in the end, I think this was the best solution... a "soft reboot".
+1 to all of this.
I am so happy to be able start fresh without saying all that came before is now just nonsense. I can definitely sense Greenwood's and Salvatore's hand in this all, can't go wrong with that. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 03:03:31
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I think the Sundering was a soft reboot type solution as well.
I just wish that WOTC could find a way to update fans on the current state of the Realms before running stuff like Tyranny of Dragons in it.
Say I haven't read the Sundering books, how am I supposed to know what's going on?
Say I'm a returning fan who hasn't played since 3, how do I know what's going on? What about lapsed players who haven't gamed in the FR since 1 or 2? How are they supposed to know what's going on?
New fans? Same issue.
I'm confused by them using the Realms for these adventures without giving people a heads-up on what's going on.
It would be different if the last published supplement was a stable situation but it wasn't.
4E book plus Sundering novels equals confusion.
3E books plus Sundering novels equals confusion as well.
I think WOTC can do something to alleviate this confusion.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 07:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I made one last attempt at getting the Sundering Novels at my local B&N. Not only didn't they have ANY, but the 'gaming shelf' got even worse (the one for D&D now is half DL, and half Drizzt, with NOTHING ELSE). I searched every section of the store, TWICE, to no avail.
I decided to speak to someone in charge this time, and told her how much better Borders used to be. With a derisive look, she said "Barnes & Noble is a MATURE store - we cater to people who enjoy literature, not pulpy garbage". I didn't even respond... i didn't know how to. This woman just decided what everyone else SHOULD be reading, and acted like that was perfectly normal.
Okay, I think I've described this particular store a few times - bottom floor is half 'gift shop' (with things like coffee mugs and reading lights), and the other half is split half 'new releases/best sellers', and gaming and a snack shop. So the actual book section on the lower floor is 1/4 the space (and is shared by a couple racks of 'hot music CDs'). Upstairs is 3/4 children's books (the expensive kind with toys and other gimmickry thrown in to make kids want them, and rich grandparents too busy to actual bother finding out the kid's interests are). The final 1/4 of that floor is the actual 'book store', and there is just two rows of scify/fantasy (mixed with horror, of course). There are two more rows of fiction, and the rest (just a couple more rows) are the non-fiction stuff (things like cookbooks and self-help crap).
THAT is her definition of a 'mature book store' - 3/4 of the actual book store being over-priced children's books (most of which are more 'toy' then book). The place is HUGE, and has hardly any books at all. I've been in tiny little bookshops that had more to offer.
I hate to order books online, and I don't want to move. I am not sure what to do at this point - I fear I may have to give-up reading altogether. And I am way to old to get used to this new-fangled 'kindle-thing'. I may have to just get rich and open-up my own damn bookstore.
Guess I'll have to start ordering books at Amazon... it so weird to me to not be able to browse an actual store and FEEL the books. I think the world has lost something very special. Perhaps I'll find a very 'mature' 3-year-old to give my B&N giftcard to...
I long ago shifted to Amazon for my gaming needs. Of course, since the 4th edition, those gaming needs have decreased considerably. As to an e-reader, I only have one for those books that I don't want to spend the rest of my life hauling from one place to another (because I never sell books to a used book store after reading them... though I may have too soon... the last time I moved, about 1/3 of my boxes were books, either novels or game books). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 23:27:17
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| I was listening to a podcast from last year today. Ed summed up what is going on nicely. He said its not a reset or reboot. Its a renewal of the realms. |
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The Sundering Wraps Up With The Herald
