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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 10 May 2014 : 23:39:55
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Could it be similar to how Lolth gained power status, and reshaped the pantheon? Just the sun gods version failed?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2014 : 05:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Could it be similar to how Lolth gained power status, and reshaped the pantheon? Just the sun gods version failed?
We really don't know much about what happened during the Dawn Cataclysm... We know a couple of deities died, but at least one of those (Tyche) seemed to be more coincidental to the event. All we really know is that Lathander was trying to reshape the pantheon, and we can assume he was trying to do so in a manner that weakened or removed evil deities. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 15:40:57
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*** Casts 'Raise Scroll' ***
I was looking for a thread with 'Tyche' in the title, and strangely, there wasn't a single one, so I settled for the latest thread with 'Dawn cataclysm' in the title.
I was researching locales in Cormyr (map coming soon!), and whilst reading about Monksblade in the Volo guide, I came across this -
quote:
From there the champions of Tyche fared far and wide across the coastal lands all around the Sea of Fallen Stars. Known to all as the Lucky Knights, they were the shining-armored, noble knights errant whose exploits and wooings gave Cormyr its dashing, romantic reputation across the Inner Sea lands. Theirs is a legend that still shines brightly today, though the Lucky Knights are dead and gone these 300 winters.
Tyche was around just 300 years prior to the 2e/3e era? 
Doesn't that put a major snafu in many of the theories about her and the Dawn Cataclysm? The entry also has a(n Elminster) footnote that Tymora & Beshaba are known as 'Tyche's Daughters' (although the Old Mage does say that the true relationship between the three is unknown). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 16:13:01
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Not really... It indicates a knightly order dedicated to Tyche was around then, not Tyche herself.
The 3E FRCS puts the schism in her church in 8th century DR. 300 years before the 2E era would be around 1000ish DR, which means the order hung on for a couple centuries before disappearing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 16:24:53
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I'm just not seeing that. "Your god is gone, but knock yourselves out."
I've continued reading the entry for Monksblade, and it just gets even weirder.
There were four cooperative temples there, all working together, and one of them was to UMBERLEE... who's followers seem to be 'good guys' (heroes)! Killing sea monsters and fighting pirates...
All from a settlement thats well inland.
Did someone slip some LSD in Ed's coffee that day?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 17:26:50
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| If they were known for being lucky, then it's likely that Tymora continued to favor them. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 20:30:20
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Aye. A crusader orders' role in Faeruns societies is too important to make them vanish immediately after their divine sponsor perishes. Those with good names still recieve pages (knight-boys in training) from their connections with the people of their hometowns or those they protected in the past.
In my vision of clergies and orders in the Realms, the lack of divine sponsoring will lead those new trainees to fail to become full fledged clerics and paladins, heralding the end of such orders after the last invested generation dies of old age. Unless these 'old guard' get converted to new heresy or faith, the specialty priests or crusader orders will be lost to time fairly slowly.
Its no surprise some faithless paladin orders might hold onto fame through stubborn faith for well over 5 generations, if they can still provide the martial might their previous glory promises. If their financial base is strong enough (and in this Monksblade that is the case for four clergies joined to form one intermediately organised religion), the embedded shrines and churches of Tyche within Cormyr could provide enough resources for a couple of years worth of crusading.
After the coffers of the orders homebase organised religions dry up some might even fall to banditry across the borders, using swift cavalry to elope its local nobilities and rival churches' peacekeepers, just to keep their questing existence going for a few more years in the hope to find that 'holy grail' or 'miracle' to restore their faith/goddess/influence.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 21:41:25
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I'm not saying it wouldn't exist, I would just think Tymora would have had them switch to her pretty quickly.
The part about Umberlee though just makes the whole thing bizarre... unless SHE was more 'neutral' at one point. Even so, that settlement is nowhere near the sea, or even the Wyvernwater. The other two temples/holy orders involved were Tempus (the only one that seems normal/fitting), and a militant arm of Chauntea.
Maybe pre-DC, these deities were ALL different? Since the Dawn Cataclysm apparently happened 'outside of time' {just *UGH*), maybe it created a temporal anomaly (paradox)? I always thought Umberlee should have been an ancient Fey (Vanir) deity, and after they made Auril Fey, it just made so much sense (with both of them having been Yuir Totems). She went from being a more neutral, Neptune-like deity (I'm a nice person.. so long as you appease me...), to being "The Bitch Queen". I wonder what came first? Her rep (caused by angry sailors who hadn't bothered to 'appease her'),or her becoming a bitch? Did she become a bitch because everyone thought of her that way? Is she just misunderstood? (because pirates/merchants would REALLY resent having to share their 'take' with her).
You are supposed to 'pay lip service' to ALL the gods, when dealing with aspects of their individual portfolios. So if you murder someone, but forget to send a prayer to Baal (or dedicate the killing to him), he probably doesn't care enough - he's just happy you murdered someone. If you go to war and don't do anything for Tempus, Tempus is probably getting lots of benefit from the war itself and doesn't mind. If you read a book and don't thank Oghma, I'm sure he doesn't send an army of bookworms your way...
So is that it? People are just pissed at Umberlee because she likes to micro-manage? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2017 21:42:07 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 21:54:20
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| Wasn't it also in the Old gray box 1st edition campaign setting that there was a temple to Tyche in Shadowdale or somesuch? I believe it was retcon'd to Tymora since one of the Knights of Myth Drannor is a worshipper of Tymora. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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EltonRobb
Seeker
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 23:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Wasn't it also in the Old gray box 1st edition campaign setting that there was a temple to Tyche in Shadowdale or somesuch? I believe it was retcon'd to Tymora since one of the Knights of Myth Drannor is a worshipper of Tymora.
I can check that out.
EDIT: Yes, there is a temple to Tyche in the Encyclopaedia of the Realms (1e Grey box).
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Edited by - EltonRobb on 02 Jan 2017 23:13:38 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 02:33:39
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I think the confusion here is happening due to how dead deities functioned pre-Time of Troubles and post-Time of Troubles. Before the Time of Troubles, it could take centuries for a deities faithful to eventually dwindle away to virtually nothing. As an example see how long it took for Amaunator to die off in the lore--it took millennia.
After the Time of Troubles things changed. Deities were portrayed as much more interactive with mortals. See how the disappearance of Waukeen and her worshipers shift to Lliira, and then their shift back to Waukeen after her return. Or how all the worshiper shifts that happened like crazy after the death of Myrkul--with his faithful going from him to Cyric, and then from Cyric to Kelemvor. It all happened within the span of less than a few months (if not weeks) of Myrkul's death, Cyric's demotion, and Kelemvor's ascension.
Post-Time of Troubles changes to the way the deities worked in the Realms created the perception that the deities are constantly on speed-dial for their mortal followers. Pre-Time of Troubles lore, it makes perfect sense for there to be worshipers of Tyche around. |
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EltonRobb
Seeker
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 04:24:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Post-Time of Troubles changes to the way the deities worked in the Realms created the perception that the deities are constantly on speed-dial for their mortal followers. Pre-Time of Troubles lore, it makes perfect sense for there to be worshipers of Tyche around.
When I made my present FR campaign, I used the 1e grey box. I wanted the deities to be like the deities in Eberron. No one knows if they are actually real or not. That's how I want to run my Realms' deities. So I bought the 1e graybox ESD and started a campaign in Chondath.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 05:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by EltonRobb
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Post-Time of Troubles changes to the way the deities worked in the Realms created the perception that the deities are constantly on speed-dial for their mortal followers. Pre-Time of Troubles lore, it makes perfect sense for there to be worshipers of Tyche around.
When I made my present FR campaign, I used the 1e grey box. I wanted the deities to be like the deities in Eberron. No one knows if they are actually real or not. That's how I want to run my Realms' deities. So I bought the 1e graybox ESD and started a campaign in Chondath.
I like a similar approach. FR deities are not quite as distant as Eberron deities, but they are nowhere near as active or as hands on as they are post-Time of Troubles. Generally speaking, the only interactions deities have with mortal followers is through cryptic visions and dreams and symbolic manifestations. It is all very much left up to the interpretation of mortals what these symbolic manifestations, visions, and dreams mean.
I then shift the focus away from the deities and to the cults themselves. What do the cultists believe? Why do they believe it? How does this particular cult differ from other cults? For example, in my Realms there is a schism between two major factions in the cult of Sune. The schism takes place along the lines of a philosophical disagreement over how Sune influences love in the Realms and manifests in a disagreement over arranged marriages. The dispute might not seem like a big deal on the surface until you realize that the cult of Sune gets a lot of its wealth from nobility and other powerful and influential people who pay to have the cult perform and bless arranged marriages. Now, suddenly, there is a large segment of the cult who sees those relationships as null and void, seeks to revoke them, and refuses to bless any arranged marriage. It is a sort of esoteric problem that might not come up--unless you are playing a Cleric of Sune and suddenly realize that you have to pick a side in this conflict, and temples and abbeys devoted to the goddess you serve will not shelter you if you are on the wrong side. It might also come up if you are playing a noble and you are trying to arrange a marriage, only to find that the priestess of Sune refuses to perform the ceremony or bless the union.
This is the type of stuff I like to focus on when it comes to religion in the Realms--the stuff that actually matters to the people in the setting. Think about real life religious groups, the various beliefs they have that seem trivial or silly to outsiders, but have an outsized importance to them. Think about real world history and how people learned to hate and even kill one another for--in the grand scheme of things--minor religious differences. That is what I try to capture by focusing on the individual cults in the Realms, rather than on the deities themselves. The deities are not really all that relevant to what their mortal faithful believe outside of the inspiration and religious conviction that they might provide them. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 05:37:47
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The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure Ed had them 'interactive' (although not to the point of ridiculousness that the ToT took things).
You''ll note in his stories, and older game-books by him, he has lots of mentions of 'manifestations' of deities all over the place, and I assume thats how it was in his games. Not heavy-handed - more subtle - by definitely there all the time.
I think Ed was going for more of that 'classic myth' feel, blended with folklore. Not what we today would dub 'High Fantasy'. In other words, there is 'magic in everything', if you know where to look. A time when there was no science, and 'the gods' truly were responsible for 'everything' (physics, chemistry, botany, meteorology, geology, etc, etc).
I like that, and I think it worked for 1e, but I think the Avatar Crisis just jumped the shark and left a bad taste for gods in everyone's mouths.
And as an aside, I had thought Mel Odom's Threat from the Sea trilogy was going to end with the main character being a 'Chosen' of Umberlee (or at least a paladin of her). I thought that would have been the coolest thing, and completely unexpected (except to me, who was looking beyond the 'red herring' for the real culprit). Unfortunately, the series ended with the big 'reveal' being EXACTLY the god the books pointed to the entire time. Ah, well.
I still think she could have paladins. Especially in 5e. A god's idea of 'good' is a matter of its personal agenda, which is completely based on its portfolio. I'm sure Baal thinks murdering people is a 'good thing'. Even RW, morality is highly subjective. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2017 05:45:36 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 13:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I cant really see Ed stating that what the players were interacting with was a god or an avatar of a god (i may be wrong but it seems to absolute for Ed).
I recall reading about one of the knights interacting with Rillithane Ralathil as a child and its clear that he is interacting with some mysterious and powerful being, but the local druid only believed it to be manifestation of that god. It could easily have been some mage larking about or an evil genius enacting his latest plan.
I suspect more than a few "deific encounters" in Eds games were not what they appeared to be.
By all means have them be interactive, but the point is that you can never know what you are truly dealing with.
In our world anything inexplained was the work of the gods (and still is to some). In FR there is magic but most people will not understand it so any wandering charismatic preacher could come along and claim an event was the work of his god. If he can work his own miracles to support such a claim then even better.
Sometimes, it could happen tho. I recall Ed saying that Eilistraee has appeared "onstage", in dreams, and through manifestations in his Realms.
Now, not sure what he exactly meant for "onstage" (he used that word), but if a deity acts a bit more directly as some kind of special event, it's not the end of the world, nor it means that deities have all of sudden acquired the "in your face" status. It could even be a special and exciting event for the players. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jan 2017 13:37:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 15:43:27
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As I said Dazzler, subtle.
I recall many instances of minor manifestations - things like a floating pair of eyes just watching events. In one case, it turned out to be Shar's eyes.. and they WINKED, playfully!
So, going by that thing Ed wrote in his Monksblade entry, and what I just mentioned now, HIS gods were not so 'absolute'. They were not the flat, two-dimensional, B&W, 'Good vs. Evil' creatures D&D turned them into. They each have their own agendas, based upon their portfolios, and the whole 'good and evil' thing is meaningless to them (we KNOW for a canonical fact that Mystra protects evil mages, so long as they are 'promoting art'). I think that when deities deal with each other there is a certain amount of seriousness between them, but when they deal with humans its more like a child playing with its toys. Sure, some of them might get angry and throw stuff, but they're just trying to keep themselves amused, for the most part. That's what I walk away with from Ed's writings.
As for the Dawn Cataclysm, I'm starting to think Tyche is still one god, but in a way that we can't fathom. What would happen if a deity had a split personality? Would anyone even be able to tell it wasn't two separate beings? Maybe whatever Lathander was doing simply drove her over the edge. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2017 15:44:27 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 17:42:11
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Ed has always been clear that the deities primarily act through manifestations. For example, Lathander could manifest his power as a rosy glow over some important individual or object. From the perspective of a character witnessing such an event, it is open to interpretation--the manifestation is intended to be an omen or symbolic in nature. The same thing is true for dreams and visions granted by a deity. Deities interact with the mortal world in this way 99.99% of the time.
Rarely, at least if we are going with the things Ed has written about the subject, deities might engage in a more physical interaction with the world through the manifestation of something like an avatar. As an example, this more active role could be things like Mystra and the role she played in the birthing of the Seven Sisters. One of the reasons for this is because Ed drew his primary inspiration for the deities and their influence on the world from things like Greek Mythology. So, you have an event like the birth of the Seven Sisters not unlike the birth of individuals from Greek Mythology like Hercules, or the myth where Zeus transforms himself into a swan to impregnate Leda, who in turn lays an egg out of which hatched Helen (of Helen of Troy and the Iliad fame), Clytemnestra, Castor, and Pollux. You'll also hear or read Ed talking about certain deities being more interactive with the world than others--a great example of this is his portrayal of Lurue who wanders the forests and heals the injured with her magical unicorn horn. We could view this as being analogous to something like the myth of Actaeon. In the myth, Actaeon is a hunter with hounds going through the forest, where he comes upon Artemis, the goddess of the hunt, who is bathing in a lake. Transfixed by Artemis' beauty he spies upon her, and she notices him--angered at his insolence, she transformed him into a deer, took control of his dogs, and then proceeded to hunt him down. His dogs eventually ran him down, killed him, and ate him. Interactions with the physical manifestations/avatars of deities in Eds more classical work tend more toward this variety.
The feel generated in the above stories is more "classical Realms" or pre-Time of Troubles and the novelization of the deities. Once we get into the novelization of the deities they become characters in stories, rather than mysterious and distant figures of great power. The deities of the Realms, according to Ed, are not all powerful--just as the Greek deities were not all powerful. One of the problems with turning them into characters is exactly what we saw happen to the Realms: people want to kill them. The deities begin to lose their mysteriousness and become obstacles or challenges to characters.
Its one of the reasons in my Realms I do not go as far as Ed did in the "classical Realms." I limit the deities to dreams, visions, and symbolic manifestations. No physical manifestations/avatars. It creates a slippery slope and adds logical problems like: if a deity can manifest physically, why don't they give more direct orders to their clergy? You see this problem appear in situations like what happened with the Risen Sun Heresy, where the high priests of Lathander attempt to commune with him to ask him if the heretics are correct--only to not have Lathander respond. It requires some weird nonsensical explanation for why Lathander would not respond if he could, and either inform them: "Yes, I am behind these people, and here is my plan..." or "No, I am not behind these heretics. There are other forces at work..." If deities are never that directly communicative in the first place, then the priests do not attempt to ask Lathander about it in such an overt manner. Instead, they pray about it, look for signs and omens, look through ancient writings and other religious texts, etc. They then form their own opinion, which they then teach to the faithful of Lathander.
I do my best to redirect the focus away from the deities themselves and more toward the cults. Worshipers of Lathander should not be thinking about or wondering if Lathander is going to show up and directly give them instructions. Instead, they should be looking to Lathanders mortal clergy for guidance. If so-and-so high priest of Lathander says something is true, then he is the person who speaks for Lathander (in the eyes of that particular character). The focus needs to shift away from deities and onto their individual cults. The deities themselves should never be personal characters in the story. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 03 Jan 2017 17:43:15 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 19:22:28
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Well, there is what I 'think', and then there is "how I play".
IMG, the gods may as well not even be real, because there is ZERO interaction. Not that they don't 'do stuff', it just all happens 'off camera'.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2017 : 20:53:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
That Aldrick is exactly how i do it as well. An avatar only comes when called by the church and it is super rare (lathander killing sammaster).
Everything else is birdsign and tea leaves
Yeah. It just works best that way. I have the deities being much more "active" in myths and legends--the same way Greek deities were "active" in their myths and legends. For example, Targus/Garagos and Tempus battling each other. I retcon the most recent stuff, though. Lathander killing Sammaster is a good example of something I would retcon as being too overt and direct. I just say it was a Paladin or powerful priest of Lathander, who was empowered and blessed by the deity. Same outcome, the deity was still involved, but the deity gets one degree removed.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, there is what I 'think', and then there is "how I play".
IMG, the gods may as well not even be real, because there is ZERO interaction. Not that they don't 'do stuff', it just all happens 'off camera'.
I try and strike a balance. I think there is a danger of going too far in the other direction and accidently "Eberron-izing" the setting. I am not against remote and non-responsive deities, but that clearly was not what was in mind thematically for the Realms. The problem is that the Realms went too far in the opposite direction from Eberron--the deities got too involved, to the point that they actually became characters.
What makes deities interesting is their distance, and that distance is important because it creates mystery. There are some things that we just cannot know, and some things that we will never know. That is not a bad thing. That is part of what makes the Realms so fantastic, and it is one of the reasons that the deities were so interesting and appealing in the first place.
An excellent example of this is the Dawn Cataclysm. It is interesting precisely because so there is so little known about it. There are a few scraps of lore here and there, which serve primarily to add to its mystery. It becomes interesting and worthy of discussion precisely because there are no solutions or answers--no one can be told to refer to such-and-such page number in such-and-such book. The mystery of the Dawn Cataclysm opens itself up to theories, and really that is half the fun of enjoying the lore of the Realms.
Ed is the master of this in his setting design. He is a skilled tease. He gives lore readers just enough to want more, but never so much that all the questions get answered. In fact, when Ed teases you in such a way, your immediate response is likely a (conscious or subconscious) question, followed by your imagination quickly moving to try and fill in the details. Suddenly the place he has described or the lore tidbit he has dropped leaves you hungry for more, and you have the urge to explore the place he has just revealed. The Realms--especially older versions--are filled with this type of stuff. Ed even had a rule that if someone were to reveal, solve, or answer one thing they should put three new things in their place in need of revealing, solving, or answering.
Part of the secret sauce of the Realms has always been the secrets and mystery that seemed to ooze off every page. It triggers the imagination, and it makes you want to explore and actually play the game. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2017 : 17:46:16
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But she turned on Iakhovas, and then later she seemed to be against him in the TftD series (although which deities were influencing what was left vague). Considering that, and also the above Monksblade entry in the Volo's guide, I think she had/has a more 'neutral' stance than an actual evil one. After all, she doesn't arbitrarily punish sailors - just the ones that don't show her some respect.
Also, as 'civilization' spreads, a lot of goods are now being brought overland with caravans, which means Waukeen is cutting into 'her take'. I can see her getting a bit more 'hard' on people using the seas as time moves forward.
Not precisely on-topic, but god-related, and thats what the DC was all about, so here goes: Its fairly easy to 'show favor' of the gods in 5e - just use advantage/disadvantage. But what if two groups clash, and they have 'favor' (advantage) from two different deities? Do they just cancel out, or do both groups still get advantage when rolling? (which seems off to me)
And now I'm thinking that might not be the best way to handle 'divine favor' - what if you got a '+' to die rolls (for either a set amount of times or a set interval) that equaled the tier of Divine Rank your god is? A demi-power could probably grant you a one-off, but thats it (maybe for an encounter). Lesser deities = +1, Int. Deities +2, Greater = +3, 'High Gods' (pantheon leaders, Mystra, etc) = +4, and maybe +5 for an Overpower (not that I think one of those would even get that involved in mortal affairs). Then a battle between two opposing beliefs would come down to "who's god is better".
And you could mix'N'match - suppose some buccaneers didn't appease Umberlee and got disadvantage on all their rolls for the duration of the voyage. Then they are attacked by an elite group of pirate-hunters dedicated to Tyr, and those guys all get a +3 for the encounter. Of course, gods are fickle, and umberlee may choose to drop her disadvantage just because another deity is stepping on her domain.
How would you guys handle those situations? Do 'all the math', or just 'call it a wash' when you have conflicting faiths? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2017 17:50:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 15:23:40
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I just had a wild thought (last night) - what if we connected Zakhara's complete lack of history before a millennia ago to the Dawn Cataclysm?
Fate is listed as an Overpower in in some sources - what if she lost most of her power to Ao around that time? Perhaps what Lathander (and others - maybe he just got blamed for the whole thing) did was try to merge all of Toril's pantheons into just one? And maybe he succeeded? (To an extent - Ao became the only Overpower, so basically, everyone else got rolled-into one large pantheon, despite regional differences.)
EDIT:
I just checked what little there is of an AQ timeline, and it would be easy to shoe-horn the DC into the timeline - only one human-based event happened before it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jun 2017 15:27:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 18:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just had a wild thought (last night) - what if we connected Zakhara's complete lack of history before a millennia ago to the Dawn Cataclysm?
Fate is listed as an Overpower in in some sources - what if she lost most of her power to Ao around that time? Perhaps what Lathander (and others - maybe he just got blamed for the whole thing) did was try to merge all of Toril's pantheons into just one? And maybe he succeeded? (To an extent - Ao became the only Overpower, so basically, everyone else got rolled-into one large pantheon, despite regional differences.)
EDIT:
I just checked what little there is of an AQ timeline, and it would be easy to shoe-horn the DC into the timeline - only one human-based event happened before it.
Another idea with Zakhara is that it only "recently" arrived on Toril, and maybe a lot of the "lost" civilizations died in the transfer or the fallout afterward. Of course, recent could mean a few millennia ago. Hell, it could even go as far back as like the arrival of the Mulan gods or maybe the orcgate wars. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2429 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2017 : 12:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I recall Ed saying that Eilistraee has appeared "onstage", in dreams, and through manifestations in his Realms.
Now, not sure what he exactly meant for "onstage" (he used that word), but if a deity acts a bit more directly as some kind of special event, it's not the end of the world, nor it means that deities have all of sudden acquired the "in your face" status. It could even be a special and exciting event for the players.
Didn't find such a combination other than here, but specifically on interaction of Eilistraee with mortals there was this.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying it wouldn't exist, I would just think Tymora would have had them switch to her pretty quickly.
Even if so, what of it? The order would keep its name.
And since gods work with aliases, why hurry? Eventually the new ones would consistently refer to her as Tymora anyway.
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The part about Umberlee though just makes the whole thing bizarre... unless SHE was more 'neutral' at one point.
Why? Look at what happened after ToT: Umberlee have personally scared some good sense into the pirates so they'd building her a temple. And then what? If their enthusiasm didn't last long after this, they probably were even less devout before.
Besides, the Marsember entry mentions infiltration by followers of Blibdoolpoolp, Sekolah, and others.
If the local priesthood of Umberlee regularly administered spanking to this crowd (which only makes sense), while generally leaving the locals alone, that would be enough: "we think the Worshipers of the Wave are pretty cool guy, eh kick pirates' booty and doesn't afraid of anything". 
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Even so, that settlement is nowhere near the sea, or even the Wyvernwater.
Well, yeah, that's Volo for you. Or maybe those editors. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2017 : 17:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I recall Ed saying that Eilistraee has appeared "onstage", in dreams, and through manifestations in his Realms.
Now, not sure what he exactly meant for "onstage" (he used that word), but if a deity acts a bit more directly as some kind of special event, it's not the end of the world, nor it means that deities have all of sudden acquired the "in your face" status. It could even be a special and exciting event for the players.
Didn't find such a combination other than here, but specifically on interaction of Eilistraee with mortals there was this.
I meant this: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/edverse/hello_internet/?utm_source=reply&utm_medium=email&utm_content=read_more#comment-1534073727
quote:
Hi, Tommaso. You're very welcome!
Yes, Eilistraee is part of the "home" Realms campaign and has appeared "onstage" and by dream-vision and manifestation in Realmsplay. At the writing of (the first) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, I was asked to create a deity for "good" drow for the game, and used the opportunity to make official the Dark Dancer female drow goddess I'd already created for my own use.
And, oh yes: Eilistraee lives!
:}
Ed
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Jul 2017 17:16:40 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 02:20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I cant really see Ed stating that what the players were interacting with was a god or an avatar of a god (i may be wrong but it seems to absolute for Ed).
I recall reading about one of the knights interacting with Rillithane Ralathil as a child and its clear that he is interacting with some mysterious and powerful being, but the local druid only believed it to be manifestation of that god. It could easily have been some mage larking about or an evil genius enacting his latest plan.
I suspect more than a few "deific encounters" in Eds games were not what they appeared to be.
By all means have them be interactive, but the point is that you can never know what you are truly dealing with.
In our world anything inexplained was the work of the gods (and still is to some). In FR there is magic but most people will not understand it so any wandering charismatic preacher could come along and claim an event was the work of his god. If he can work his own miracles to support such a claim then even better.
It has been established though that the deities in the Realms are fact. They exist, and are a part of the setting. Yes, mortals can't always know what the deity wants, and there are varying interpretations of decrees and such, but the gods themselves are very much a part of the Realms. While in the RW, it is faith, in the Realms, their existence is a known and proven thing.
I remember watching an interview with Ed, I think it was when 5e was first coming out. Yes, he wanted some mystery there (which is ironic considering he has Mystra show up for tea), but there are a part of the Realms, nevertheless.
I believe in a balance. I actually like the gods interacting with mortals, but I there comes a point when it is too much, I agree. Still, saying a sign may or may not be from a god I think undermines the gods and their role in the Realms. We have established lore and evidence, and the gods are very much a part of the setting, as a real, existing force. Some are more actively involved than others, but they're there. Silvanus may send a sign to his followers, and they may have to figure out what he is trying to tell them, but they know the sign is from Silvanus, not some magical force that may or may not be Silvanus.
And goddesses like Eilistraee (heck, even Mystra), have appeared before and are involved with their followers. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jul 2017 02:22:54 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 02:36:38
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| As long as they appear as flavour, and aren't walking plot devices, or don't directly meddle with mortal affaits, that could even make them more interesting. An entity who always stays far away and never does anything concrete is just a name to worship. An entity who does stuff and is involved in some way with people (like even simply interacting with them), but whose actions remain hidden behind the curtains, can pique curiosity and interest while remaining mysterious in the end, and while not being a forceful plot element. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 02:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As long as they appear as flavour, and aren't walking plot devices, or don't directly meddle with mortal affaits, that could even make them more interesting. An entity who always stays far away and never does anything concrete is just a name to worship. An entity who does stuff and is involved in some way with people (like even simply interacting with them), but whose actions remain hidden behind the curtains, can pique curiosity and interest while remaining mysterious in the end, and while not being a forceful plot element.
Right, I think there is a balance, and I think that was Ed's original intention for them. Not so distant that they might as well not be there, but not too involved either (I was going to edit my earlier post and add that we have had whole plots surrounding them, and whether they were good plots or not, they are further proof of the gods' involvement, and thus existence, whether said involvemt is on a grand or more discreet scale).
I will admit, I like when the gods make appearances, though it does depend on how and what they do during that time. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 06:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As long as they appear as flavour, and aren't walking plot devices, or don't directly meddle with mortal affaits, that could even make them more interesting. An entity who always stays far away and never does anything concrete is just a name to worship. An entity who does stuff and is involved in some way with people (like even simply interacting with them), but whose actions remain hidden behind the curtains, can pique curiosity and interest while remaining mysterious in the end, and while not being a forceful plot element.
The problem is a lack of balance. There are two extremes that are the polar opposite. There is the Eberron end of things, where the deities show no sign of existence at all. Then there is the post-Time of Troubles Realms, where the deities are sitting down with people for a friendly chat.
The safest path is the middle path between the two. The deities only interact with the world through dreams, omens, symbols, and manifestations. All of their appearances can thus be left open to some degree of interpretation. Avoid direct appearances, even for flavor.
If deities are allowed to drop over for a friendly chat, then this opens up a can of worms that cannot be closed. We end up in a situation where we ultimately ended up in the canon Realms, with deities killing each other, with mortals killing deities, and a whole lot of other shenanigans--not to mention all of the other problems. For example, let's say something bad is happening to Mystra's faithful and to the deity similar to what was happening with Lathander and his followers with the Risen Sun Heresy. We know Mystra has manifested in the flesh many times in the Realms, why would she not show up and say, 'Hey guys, that heresy is a bunch of bunk. Just ignore that. I don't have anything to do with it.' To avoid that situation you are left with a pretty weak solution, which is just to exclaim, 'The gods work in mysterious ways!' That really is not a satisfactory solution to the problem, and a deity being silent in such an instance would only lend support to the heresy.
In the end, is it really any different if someone falls asleep in a moonlit grove and has a dream vision of dancing with Eilistraee in the grove, or a group of her followers see moonlit shadows dancing alongside them in the figure of a large Drow woman--instead of Eilistraee appearing in the flesh to do the same thing? In the end, Eilistraee makes her presence known. The difference is that you cannot question the dream or the manifestation. If Eilistraee is standing right there before you, the temptation to ask her questions and for direct guidance is exceedingly high to the point of overwhelming.
None of the flavor gets lost, but the degree of separation protects the setting from exactly what ended up taking place. It's the middle road--the balance between the two extremes--that keeps the flavor intact without the inevitable consequences of having deities duking it out or becoming central characters in stories. Deities in the Realms should be viewed more like a spice--they are important for flavor but are awful when they become the primary ingredient. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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New Theory on Dawn Cataclysm
