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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 12:57:54
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And here is a little snippet of Alasklerbanbastos' history.
Alasklerbanbastos spent years infiltrating the Thresk family of Mourktar, creating and recreating himself over and over again in human guise as an entire bloodline of members of the Thresk family. By the time he created the persona of Askler Thresk in 800 DR, he was next in line to inherit the throne from the aging and childless King Selsgar Thresk.
As Prince Askler, Alasklerbanbastos remained a mysterious and enigmatic figure, always present at major engagements, and yet similarly unable to be found. Everyone had met the dashing young prince but no one could quite remember what he looked like, just that he was young and handsome and charming, with sapphire blue eyes.
Alasklerbanbastos longed for acceptance and the embrace of Tiamat the Dark Lady, and he attempted to court her by doing what he felt was her bidding. His first goal was to claim a nation to make him rich and powerful, the next was to smash Unther into dust.
Alasklerbanbastos recognised the power of the Church of Bane which was recently established in Chessenta. Using a powerful artefact of Bane that he had uncovered many years before, he persuaded the church that he would make an ideal tyrant through which to enforce their will.
In 823 DR, using his newfound allies, Prince Askler declared Mourktar independent of Unther and refused to obey the edicts (and pay the taxes) of that decadent and unpopular land. The retaliation from Unther was pitiful and easily eliminated by the armies of Mourktar backed by the Church of Bane. In gratitude, construction of a grand temple was begun in Mourktar in honour of those that helped liberate them from Unther’s rule.
Prince Askler then set his sights on creating a nation. He preyed upon the traditional enmity between Luthcheq and Mordulkin and in 831 DR convinced Luthcheq to help him conquer the wizardly might of that city. Then at the last moment once the siege was complete, Prince Askler betrayed his allies and accepted Mordulkin as part of the new nation of Threskel.
Shortly after this Alasklerbanbastos’ hated enemy appeared to thwart his plans. Tchazzar had spent many years studying the humans of Chessenta, trying to work out how to implement the next stage of his plan to thwart the curse of the Ring of Tiamat. The war for Chessenta was the perfect stage for Tchazzar’s bid for divinity; he would oppose Prince Askler and be seen as a crusader against tyranny who could unite the people behind his banner. Even better, the tyrant was none other than Alasklerbanbastos.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 14:43:06
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To celebrate my first ever sticky thread, and also to celebrate the impending upload of Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions issues to Candlekeep (link to follow when its done), here are two snippets from issue 5.
This is for all those of you who dont like the Mulhorandi gods because they are too much like Egyptian gods (and have animal heads).
The Avatar of Set
Set originally appeared upon Toril in his avatar form as a 10 ft tall muscular man of Mulan descent that was capable of wielding devastatingly powerful, evil magics and frequently carried a two pronged dagger.
Now his avatar form is somewhat different from its origins. From his first deific conquest, Mdaess, Set gained a very finely scaled skin, forked tongue, and snake-like eyes; he also gained immunity to all poisons of any kind.
Following his battle with the Skriaxit, Set’s skin darkened to an almost black hue which disguises his scales very well (although they were so fine as to be almost invisible anyway). Set also gained control over Darkness and so can cause shadows and darkness to spread into areas of light where it should not be present (thus blocking the light to see him), although he cannot create shadow and darkness out of nothing.
Finally Set wears a helm shaped in the form of a jackal that disguises his unusual facial features (tongue and eyes). This change occurred following the influx of beast cults into Mulhorand around -240 DR.
The beast cults worshipped powerful creatures that resembled animals or monsters; they were forced into the northern provinces of Mulhorand by the Suren that had invaded their homelands. They refused to worship the Mulhorandi deities and so the Empire of Mulhorand declared war upon them. Anhur’s church led the charge in fighting the cultists but their members just dispersed into the wilderness and proved difficult to locate or they summoned the beings they worshipped to their side to battle the Mulhorandi.
Bast was the first to encounter the avatar of one of these quasi-powers and she merged with the one called Felidae the cat. Felidae’s worshippers initially refused to believe what had occurred and so Bast took to appearing with the head of a feline to appease these new potential worshippers who in time worshipped Bast as Felidae.
The idea quickly caught on and a number of other Mulhorandi gods sought out and merged with or conquered these quasi divine beings that the beast cults idolised so that they might gain more divine power. Horus-Re for instance battled an enormous hawk over Murghôm while Set sought out and devoured the jackal Typhon.
The animal head regalia appealed to the Mulan people of Mulhorandi and it entered popular culture and religious worship ensuring that certain gods of Mulhorand would forever be depicted with animal heads.
From that moment on Set was represented as wearing the jackal head of Typhon the Jackal who he is famous for battling in the Raurin desert and from whom he gained power over Predators, Carrion, and Rot. Certainly some of the Mulhorandi powers were changed far more profoundly than others that just took to wearing animal heads.
Set also has the ability to transform into a colossal sized snake with poison and constricting abilities but he uses this ability seldom.
And this one is a potential explanation for certain events in the north although i wont say which ones (the clues are in the names - and the dates) but i suspect George will be along to point out any mistakes i may have made (hopefully none).
The Hundar Isles
The Hundar Isles are an assorted group of islands that stretch out from the eastern edge of Laerakond (The Barrier Mountains) out into the Trackless Sea for thousands of miles.
These islands were a by-product of the shifting of Laerakond due to the Sundering ritual performed by the elves. While the vast majority of Laerakond in Abeir was moved across the ocean in an instant without anyone noticing, the far eastern edge of Laerakond cracked and fragmented leaving island peaks dotted throughout the waters of Abeir.
Over the millennia these mountainous islands were colonised by plants and animals and most crucially groups of humans seeking to escape the orcs (who are terrified of the ocean). The humans of Laerakond were called Darukurzym, meaning weak in orcish, although the fall of the orcs may have changed their outlook of the humans of Laerakond.
These humans set up small villages on the islands and blossomed without the dangers of being hunted by orcs like vermin. Living on the cold mountainous isles with few resources changed them into a blonde haired, war-like race that raided the mainland of Laerakond for wood, food, weapons, and treasure.
They persisted in this manner for thousands of years because the orcs were too afraid to come and get them and the dragon overlords were not bothered by a few humans stealing rothé and trees and killing the odd orc here and there.
This all changed around -3400 DR. Upon the twinned world of Toril a group of sea faring dwarves were planning their latest expedition of discovery into the Trackless Sea. The high priest of Marthammor Duin was using magic to search for signs of land in the far off ocean, when by happenstance he scried the place where Laerakond would reappear in three thousand years time.
This place was the centre of a rift in the fabric of space, time, and dimension that was created when the planet Abeir-Toril was halved and twinned to separate Laerakond and Faerûn. This rift had an immensely powerful antipathy curse on it that would force anyone nearing the rift to move away in the opposite direction, the curse could only be broken by someone passing through the rift which was impossible unless they had powers in excess of an over-god.
Unfortunately for the high priest his magic scried through the rift to Abeir and so was repelled by the antipathy effect towards Laerakond, he was driven mad by the constant feeling that he should be on the other side of the rift. This antipathy effect cursed the dwarf and made him a focus for it thus spreading the antipathy to those around him. Slowly over many years the dwarves of that kingdom all began to experience a great desire to leave Faerûn and sail across the sea to shores unknown, the desire was so great it drove them mad.
As always feel free to leave feedback and let me know if you have any articles you want to appear in the mag. I was expecting a few cries of blasphemy for bringing back Gilgeam, adding in a third empire, and merging the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, but i suppose after the owners blow up the world any changes i make are minor in comparison.
For those that like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun i have just finished a draft deity writeup of the Masked Lady and Lolth, with a bit of an alternate twist on things (cough Crescent Blade cough). They will be appearing in issue 6 or 7.
As soon as i know the location i will update the first page with a link to Issues 1-4 on Candlekeep.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 15:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For those that like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun i have just finished a draft deity writeup of the Masked Lady and Lolth, with a bit of an alternate twist on things (cough Crescent Blade cough). They will be appearing in issue 6 or 7.
Cool. I'm curious about what you did with the sword. I ignore the whole part about the crusade to slay Lolth -since it doesn't feel like what Eilistraee is about and would focus on in a situation like the Silence- nonetheless it is interesting to see different takes on such a gimmicky plot tool like the Crescent Blade. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 14:16:23
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| This is an interesting idea. I look forward to seeing what comes in the future. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 14:33:26
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| TBH I've read the first two and I spend half the time trying to stop my brain from saying that doesn't quite work because of this or that and remember that its alternate dimension FR :P We'll see if I succeed in this attempt :) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 13:51:29
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This time a snippet from the History of Thay article which include a few secret cabals and organisations that i made up.
Cabal of the Old Man: This cult existed for little more than 50 years during the time between 976 DR and 1034 DR when the Zulkirate was established. This society of mages was centred on a curious artefact discovered in a vault in the city of Delhumide.
The artefact was an ancient and magical skull that was said to be over 2,000 years old. Those that meditated in the presence of the skull were said to be able to communicate with it, and during one of these communications it was supposedly discovered that the skull belonged to Thayd himself and the members of the cult believed a portion of his soul or a memory of Thayd persisted inside the skull.
While few in number, and one of the smallest mage cabals in Thay, the Cabal of the Old Man did something that no other cabal was prepared to do. The Skull of Thayd urged its members to cooperate with other mage cabals in order to ensure the future of Thay.
At first the cult allied itself to the fledgling but fast growing Order of the Black Flame. Within a few years they were strong enough to openly resist the Binders Society and so they then approached the Order of the Blue Star. Once the alliance was joined the Brotherhood of Battlemages quickly sided with this new, powerful, political entity in order to combat their ancient enemy.
Together this alliance of mages, held together by the efforts of the Skull of Thayd, fought the Binders Society to a standstill. Instead of destroying them however the Skull urged its members, who influenced Ythazz and the others, to offer peace and propose a council government where all could rule in partnership.
Ythazz proposed the Zulkirate, based on the eight schools of magic, and the country was named Thay in honour of its grandfather and because of the Skull of Thayd who had made it all possible.
Once the Zulkirate was formed, the Cabal of the Old Man took a step back from the politics of Thay, and when civil war threatened the rule of the Zulkirs, the Skull of Thayd exploded killing a number of former allies, including the leading representative of the cult itself.
Who the Skull of Thayd truly belonged to remains unknown, but it appears that its sole purpose was to steer the fledgling nation of Thay towards a government of disunity, wherein no one faction or person could hope to gain complete control. Because of this Thay has never been able to fulfil its potential and desire for world conquest, and for this reason alone most of Faerûn owes a considerable debt of gratitude to this mysterious skull.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 13:36:52
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And the last snippet is a scenario from the campaign arc i am writing for the Mulhorandi invasion of Unther. This article is very much still WIP but it will be finished in time for the release of Issue V.
Scenario Two: Siege of Firetrees
With the Unther army defeated a quarter of the surviving Cultists retreat towards Firetrees (the rest retreat to Unthalass). General Khemenet favours taking the easy target of Firetrees for himself and thereby securing a route across the River Alamber. He takes a force many times that needed to conquer the settlement and orders his rival, General Bokasin to take Unthalass with the remaining Mulhorandi forces.
Forces Involved:
- Mulhorand, Regulars (1000 N hm Fighter 1): Armed with Chain Shirt, Scimitar, Light Wooden Shield. Commanded by General Khemenet (LG hm Pal 8/Glorious Servitor 7 of Horus-Re).
- Mulhorand, Mercenaries (1000 N hm Fighter 1-3): Chessentan mercenaries. Armament varies according to specialty. Commanded by Kendera Steeldice (LG hf Pal 11 of Red Knight).
- Unther, Cultists (400 NE hm Commoner 1): Armed with Spears. These Cultists are fanatics and receive a +2 bonus to Str and Con, +1 bonus to Will, and -1 penalty to AC.
- Unther, Slaves (500 N hm Commoner 1): Unarmed. Will only fight if forced to. Slaves suffer -1 morale penalty to all checks.
- Unther, Bluespawn Ambusher (9): These Spawn of Tiamat lie in wait underground in groups of three around the settlement and leap forth to ambush those that venture too close.
1371 Mirtul 1: The forces of Mulhorand surround Firetrees. General Khemenet orders all forces to attack (Kendera Steeldice keeps her Gold Swords back) and encounters the Bluespawn Ambushers. Almost 100 regulars are killed in the initial attack and the forces of Mulhorand are forced to regroup.
1371 Mirtul 2: The Cult of Tiamat send an envoy to General Khemenet demanding the army of Mulhorand end the siege or a total of 500 citizens of Unther will be sacrificed to Tiamat. General Khemenet gives the Cult 3 days to surrender.
1371 Mirtul 3: Kendera Steeldice and the Gold Swords attempt to infiltrate Firetrees and rescue the slaves.
1371 Mirtul 4: General Khemenet orders the attack early and at night to catch the Cultists off guard, this foils Kendera’s plan to rescue the slaves. All cultists and slaves are killed with a further 100 Mulhorandi regulars and 50 mercenaries lost in the fighting. Kendera Steeldice withdraws to Unthalass and refuses to work with Khemenet any longer.
Side Quests:
- Hostage Situation: If the PCs are working for Mulhorand and particularly if they helped her with rescuing slaves on the Greenfields, then Kendera Steeldice will approach them and ask for help in rescuing the hostages from Firetrees. If the PCs are working for Unther then Kendera and the Gold Swords will infiltrate Firetrees, if the PCs happen to be there then the two groups will encounter one another and Kendera will ask the PCs to help release the hostages, and she will ensure they are allowed to leave Firetrees unmolested.
The hostages are kept in groups of 50 and are guarded by 10-20 cultists at a time. Any sign of hostility and the cultists will begin massacring the nearest hostages. The Gold Swords will rescue 200 out of 350 hostages. The PCs, with Kendera’s help can rescue the remainder.
- The Ritual: In the depths of Firetrees, lie a series of catacombs dug by the Cult of Tiamat to serve as their base when Unther was ruled by Gilgeam. Now these tunnels serve as a marshalling point for the Cult of Tiamat forces in the Greenfields and it is from here the slaves are sent to work the fields.
Upon seeing the avatar of Anhur take to the field, a number of senior cultists in Firetrees decided to call upon their goddess. In a ritual requiring the sacrifice of over a hundred slaves (not included in the numbers above), these priests and wizards seek to call upon Tiamat to send them aid.
In the deepest section of the catacombs, a total of 5 priests and wizards (levels 3-5) are sacrificing the bound slaves one by one (they can do one each per round). They are protected by 5 Serpent Guards (NE half blue dragon Fighter 3). The number of slaves sacrificed determines the type of aid Tiamat sends. If 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 slaves are killed then an abishai is sent (colour ranges from white to red depending on the number of slaves killed). If 75 slaves are killed then a bluespawn godslayer is sent by Tiamat.
The party need to kill the Serpent Guards and the priests and rescue as many slaves as possible. If they are already working with Kendera Steeldice then she will be available to help. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 15:14:58
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Very interesting stuff, especially Gilgeam and the Akanu stuff. Also, amazing you remembered about the Black Flame Cabal! About Mulholand, I think it was always a bit whitewashed by the authors, as their actions on Unther, and stance on slavery made me doubt they’re supposed to better than Unther. Horus-Re and Anhur especialy, and they fell more like Lawful Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral, rather than Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. will you touch upon it, in future issues? The Dark Lady and Dragon Tiamat conflicts are very interesting. Are the Dark Lady and Queen of Chromatic Dragons two aspects/spliters a greater being, alternates of themselves, or some divine Convergent Evolution?
I thought for some time that the 'Typhon' of whom Set took name, was Pazuzu, as it's listed among the Demon Lords aliases. I can even see Pazuzu giving up this name to Set, as a part of a plan to corrupt the deity. I also thought that Pazuzu/Typhon was maybe one of the Turami or Raurini Old Gods, and it even conditionally fits your description of Dark Gods of Turami.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 15:51:16
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Well as modelled on the designers of past products i like to leave most things vague so that people can make up their own minds.
Regarding the alignment and slavery thing. i tend not to dwell on it too much since our modern interpretation of morals does not apply to the medieval world that faerun is based upon, and furthermore alignment in D&D tends to be imperfectly implemented.
I personally tend to view it from the stance of the society themselves. The Mulhorandi regard themselves as good people and their gods as good gods. Therefore Horus-Re is of good alignment and for the most part he is (a bit zealous perhaps). Set would readily admit he is an evil backstabbing scumbag, and the Red Wizards of Thay probably recognise they have the morals of a serial killer.
Slavery in Mulhorand is not particularly harsh for the most part. It seems more like the slavery of ancient Rome where some slaves are of course worked to death (probably criminals) but others could have better lives than that of a free man in the Dalelands.
Anyways i'll leave the question unanswered because i doubt im qualified to answer it other than my personal opinion above.
As for the Dragon Queen and the Dark Lady. I may not have stated it quite so obvious in the issues but Tiamat the Dragon Queen and Tiamat the Dark Lady were two entirely different beings.
Tiamat the Dragon Queen is the 5 headed monster we all know and love. She is a god of the draconic pantheon and has been around for tens of thousands of years.
Tiamat the Dark Lady was a human sorceress/goddess that was a member of the Sumerian/Babylonian pantheon and travelled to Toril with the other gods that eventually became the Untheric pantheon. Tiamat the Dark Lady had a penchant for taking the form of a 3 headed dragon (red, green, and blue).
Despite the fact that the two goddesses had the same name (different titles) they were totally separate deities in totally separate pantheons with totally separate portfolios. I envisaged Tiamat the Dark Lady as having the portfolios of Rebellion, Chaos, Anarchy, etc.
It was an easy thing for Tiamat the Dragon Queen to take over the worship of Tiamat the Dark Lady. She just started answering the prayers of the Dark Lady's faithful and no one was any the wiser (same name, both like dragons and take dragon form, so who would know or care if they are different). The high priest of the Church of the Dark Lady (Tiglath) however has noticed her god's sudden shift towards evil, rather than being focused upon rebellion (Tiamat the Dark Lady was probably CN).
Now Tiamat the Dragon Queen is the sole being and Tiamat the Dark Lady exists only as an avatar of that god. I personally play avatars as free willed constructs that have to act within the portfolio of the god but are otherwise their own beings (makes it more interesting and allows for a god's return after being absorbed by another).
I hope to solidify the rules on deities in a later issue which should support the was in which i portray the gods for my version of FR (based on the immortals boxed set - thankyou Arcanamach for that pointer).
Now onto Typhon and Set. One major criticism of the Mulhorandi pantheon that everyone has is they are too much like the real world egyptian pantheon so i was attempting to create reasons for why they are as they are but without it being related to the real world.
The animal heads is one such glaring real world comparison and i was stumped to explain it until i came across a stray history entry that described beast cults arriving in Mulhorand and Bast subsuming one and becoming more cat like in personality.
So i decided that the absorption of deities had a physical effect as well. Mulhorandi deities do not tolerate people within their borders openly worshipping other gods (its in the sourcebooks somewhere) so they would have tried to convert these beast cultists. While the cult icons are still alive that would not work, but once the icons are destroyed and subsumed into the Mulhorandi gods themselves it would be possible.
However if some random foreign priest comes up to you and says "my god is your god" you would scoff and tell him to stick it because your god is a massive hawk and his is some human looking guy. If however the mulhorandi gods take on the physical aspects of the beast cult icons then it is more likely to have some success in converting the cultists. So wearing animal helmets/head dresses seemed like an appropriate idea.
Then that moved me on to Set and his strange physical characterists (scales, jackal head, skin as black as night) so i figured Set killed a number of powerful beings and absorbed them into himself. I had the name of the Skriaxit (some kind of powerful being of darkness unleashed by the Imaskari no doubt) but i didnt have a name for the jackal god and when i looked under Set it had the name Typhon, so i picked that one.
That Typhon is an alias of Pazuzu may or may not connect the two (i didnt know of his alias until know).
If however i was to try and connect them it could go one of two ways.
1 - Typhon was indead an aspect of Pazuzu. Pazuzu probably killed the original typhon long ago and sent that aspect to Toril as a replacement and to gain worship. Set then killed Typhon and there we have it.
2 - Typhon was some kind of primordial creature that once roamed the lands of Raurin and when the Imaskari arrived he moved into the Hordelands Basin along with many other primordials (who later became the beast cults mentioned in the history snippet i found). For whatever reason those beast cults moved into Mulhorand and Set killed Typhon and absorbed his power trying to steal his worshippers. Set was not particularly successful and a number of beast worshippers moved on past Mulhorand (spreading across Faerun). Those cultists of Typhon outside of Mulhorand are being catered to by Pazuzu while those within Mulhorand are catered to by Set.
There are many ways to play it, and i intended that the absorption of the beast cults changed the personalities of the gods themselves so whatever they are know is not what they once were.
I imagined in the distant past that gods were not so common and primordials existed in greater number. Primordials are really just unique beings of greater power than normal beings (that doesnt mean they are super powerful titans of destruction - just a jackal that is as big as a bear and can manifest a few magic abilities for instance). These primordials naturally attract worshippers (people worship beings of power as gods) but not enough worship to make them gods, so they wander the planet with their cultists. I think in early realms products Ed Greenwood referred to them as quasi deities, and i try to stick to that idea.
The Turami strike me as an ancient people much like the Talfir people of western Faerun. They were certainly outcompeted by all the other racial groups of humans in Faerun but i often wonder what they would be like. That they are ancient and there before all other humans leads me to believe that they probably worshipped the most ancient of gods (like Shar) and using that angle i tried to work in a corruption of the Mulan people (multiple references to darkness and shadows).
Anyway i hope i answered your questions. If not then by all means ask away. Im glad you are reading it and enjoying it. I think i am nearly done with the old empires. Issue 6 should include the last of the developments for that region (including a new organisation - i bet no one can guess which one but it is mentioned in the Old Empires sourcebook).
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 08:26:10
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Hmm, a very well thought out explanation about Typhon, Set and Pazuzu, but I think that Pazuzu might be still connected to Set's corruption. Set in mythology was a good/neutral deity, that got demonized. In fact, he was originally defender of Ra. And Pazuzu is a known corrupter, even having corrupted Asmodeus from a Celestial to the King of Hell in 4e.
Interesting that you made Tiamat completely separate from her Mesopotamian/Untheric counterpart, as most d&d sources(and Pathfinder) suggest their the same being. Apsu and Kingu are even listed among the Polychromatic Dragons lovers. An-Ur, The Wandering Death, the Dragon Queen's firstborn, is also connected through his name to Mesopotamian mythology. I even have him in my homebrew as the same being as Anshar. Anshar is once referred as Tiamat grandchild, but other times as directly her son, so I went with the latter.
I'm not sure if thinking you are good, makes you good, even when dealing with abstract beings like gods. Zarus, described in described in Races of Destiny, think of himself probably as good or at least neutral, seeing his description, and of his believers, but is listed as Lawful Evil. Anhur is especially questionable case to me, as he sees a hole in a holy non aggression pact between Mulholand and Unther, in order to invade the latter. He done that, despite taking the role/alias/aspect of Ramman, so should be also a protector of Untheri now. He also took Ramman';s divine powers in a rather shady was, stealing them from a weakened Hoar that defeated Ramman. By the personal feud, Assuran/Hoar being previously exiled from Unther by Ramman, and the fact that Assuran/Hoar defeated the Thunder god, give a better claim on the portfolio to the Doombringer, rather than Anhur. It's even hard to see Anhur as a good deity, when compared to for example Hoar, whose LN, as the General of the Gods of gods actions are pretty evil when you think about it, in both modern, and ancient(more close to honor) definitions of morality/goodness.
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Edited by - Baltas on 22 Aug 2014 08:31:36 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 09:17:02
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And Tyr's tireless devotion to law which results in slavery or execution is any better.
Mystras support of evil magic users who experiment on people is a good act.
Like i said the alignment system is imperfect in D&D so i tend to skip around it. If the society as a whole judges the act to be good then that is enough for me.
In our own society we promote a celebrity lifestyle as something to aspire to and yet it involves drugs, debauchery, selfishness, and greed. In fact the entirety of capitalism is based around greed which is fast becoming a virtue of most people and must therefore be deemed good (if i were to speak out about capitalism i might be accused of communism or terrorism).
In other cultures they do things that we would deem evil, and we probably do things they would deem evil (our treatment of old people is particularly questionable).
So again if the society of Mulhorand as a whole regard their deity as a good deity then im fine keeping it as a good deity. The Mulhorandi believe in the greatness of Mulhorand, they dont think slavery is evil, and they seem happy with their harsh laws (especially against foreigners). The people of Mulhorand dont seem to have ever rebelled (outlying conquered provinces excluded) so one can conclude they like things how they are.
Contrast that with Thay and the majority of people actively hate their Red Wizard overlords and think they are evil grasping scum. Even in the Moonsea regions the people there (who are somewhat greedy and backstabbing themselve) dont like the people in charge and none of them would trust their life to Bane.
Rashemen is a particularly harsh land controlled by a secret police of sorts who execute people for discovering any information about them or disobeying orders. And yet that is not considered evil, in fact the people that live in Rashemen rather like their secret police state because they protect them from an even greater evil to the south (Thay).
With regards to Set's corruption. I only concentrate on Forgotten Realms lore. Real world comparisons and history are not my forte or of interest. I steer away from the real world history because myth and legends are just that. So when it comes to ancient Faerun lore i start from the moment they enter Faerun - everything before that doesnt matter (and as Ed pointed out in a recent scroll the Tyr on Faerun is not the Tyr from earth, the names might be the same but the connection ends there - he merely used real world counterparts as inspiration for his gods).
So Set i pictured as a god of evil magic, but that didnt make him the evil destroyer he is now, he just concentrated on magic that the Mulhorandi disapproved of (necromancy, mind control, etc).
His actual corruption i have begin with the sarrukh, but i'll leave the details for issue V.
Since the history of Mulhorand was so sparse the first confirmed action i have of him is shortly after the orcgate wars when he kills his brother (quite an evil act).
However in a text about the Orcgate Wars it mentioned that the Divine Precept of the province of priador was mysteriously absent when the orcgate portal was opened.
It didnt name the precept but i knew it was a god (they were in mortal form then) and could imagine someone evil and dastardly opening it and doing a runner. The only evil and dastardly villain we have in Mulhorand was Set and he made an attempt to rule Mulhorand shortly after so i linked everything together and therefore Set is already evil by then and the orcgate wars were part of his attempt to take over.
So i placed the beginning of Set's corruption before the Orcgate Wars and i made it in a manner similar to Bast and how her personality changed (i may have offed a minor god in the process but i dont anyone has ever used it in their own campaign setting so it probably wont be missed).
I also tried to explain Set's very expansive and diverse portfolio (admittely the Mulhorandi deities all had diverse portfolios but Set's is particularly bad). So when i looked at it i could see the Evil Magic which was probably his original, then there was the snake and poison, then darkness, then predators and carrion. So i looked for reasons to him acquiring those portfolios and hey presto his history and corruption is as now. And even better his physical description kind of supports the changes i made to his history.
Typhon was probably the last being Set consumed so his descent into evil was already complete by then (and he is completely alien to the other mulan gods by this point - he probably doesnt even consider himself human anymore).
But who's to say Set didnt come under Pazuzu's influence long before the orcgate wars. I like multiple layers of intrigue and try to write them into everything i do. You have the bad guy, the big bad guy controlling him, and then the secret bad guy pulling the strings from the shadows.
As for Tiamat, again real world history is not what i focus on. Ed may have used it for inspiration but the toril and earth Tiamat's cannot be the same for me.
Dragons began on Toril during the Tearfall so there cannot have been a god of dragons before that point. Tiamat arose to divinity sometime after the Tearfall (the story for which i have written in Issue VI). So her arrival on Toril again in search of the mulan makes no sense because she was already here and why would a god of dragons be concerned about a bunch of humans.
Making a separate god called Tiamat seemed the only logical conclusion. And hopefully nothing i have written actually changes the realms as it is today (well in 1370+ - i dont do spellplague). I did a different take on a few events but in the end it still results in one goddess called Tiamat and she is still the bitter enemy of Bahamut and they have human followers spread throughout Faerun, and hopefully my take on things makes more sense.
I figure our myths and legends of ancient empires and their "gods" are so corrupted that we couldnt make sense of them without the aid of a time machine. I know the egyptian mythology is particularly messy as they went through many different "kingdoms" during some of which the major genetic stock of the egyptian people changed entirely (i think Hittites invaded at one point) and the gods likewise changed with these events, they changed names, gender, theologies. Its too much of a mess to draw any meaningful conclusion from.
And being an atheist i am naturally inclined to conclude gods never existed at all so real world history for me is god less.
So my work in Faerun reflects that. If the mulan gods did come from earth then they are no longer present on earth and our stories about them are no longer relevant so i ignored them and only used FR sources for my ideas.
Hopefully i havent flat out broken any timeline events (i.e. the events no longer happened) instead they just happen slightly differently to how they are portrayed in the sourcebooks (the unreliable narrator). |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 13:21:42
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Hmm, I understand what you are going with the good/evil things, but I still think that Mulholands deities are kind-off on the edge here. One could even present them as realisticaly machiavellian evil, who cares about it's subjects, as opposed to the more 'cartoony' evil other evil deities presented often by writters. But I do think of them more on the good/neutral border, rather than outright malevolent. Still I think Anhur violated the more ancient notions of good that Mulani adhere to, with his actions, and invaded Unther after he became it's protector, by absorbing Ramman's portfolio and aspects. He's definitely now a harmful presence to Untheri.
About Tiamat, few witters, I think Ed included, suggested that time isn't linear for deities, like for us, and that's why it's so hard to pinpoint the Dawn Cataclysm. I think ancient beings, like Tiamat can have multible origins/pasts. Compare Randall Flagg from the Stephen King novels, or Time Traper from DC. Both have diffrent pasts, with Time Trapper being even completely diffrent people of diffrent genders(including a Controller, his servant Glorith, Cosmic Boy, Lori Morning, and Superboy-Prime) that often met with each other, yet he's still one person. There are even clues/theories that Randall, the Crimson King, and Mordred, and Merlin are each others versions/aspects, on diffrent levels of existence. Tiamat can be seen also as a power that split/manifested into various beings, like the Dragon Queen, the Dark Lady/the Mythological Tiamat, and Takhisis. Especialy that Tiamat's myth tells about her being ripped apart, so maybe all of those beings are shards of the original Tiamat? Not to mention, Tiamat's myth makes her D&D version a more 3 dimensional character. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 13:53:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well as modelled on the designers of past products i like to leave most things vague so that people can make up their own minds.
Regarding the alignment and slavery thing. i tend not to dwell on it too much since our modern interpretation of morals does not apply to the medieval world that faerun is based upon, and furthermore alignment in D&D tends to be imperfectly implemented.
I personally tend to view it from the stance of the society themselves. The Mulhorandi regard themselves as good people and their gods as good gods. Therefore Horus-Re is of good alignment and for the most part he is (a bit zealous perhaps). Set would readily admit he is an evil backstabbing scumbag, and the Red Wizards of Thay probably recognise they have the morals of a serial killer.
Slavery in Mulhorand is not particularly harsh for the most part. It seems more like the slavery of ancient Rome where some slaves are of course worked to death (probably criminals) but others could have better lives than that of a free man in the Dalelands.
Anyways i'll leave the question unanswered because i doubt im qualified to answer it other than my personal opinion above.
As for the Dragon Queen and the Dark Lady. I may not have stated it quite so obvious in the issues but Tiamat the Dragon Queen and Tiamat the Dark Lady were two entirely different beings.
Tiamat the Dragon Queen is the 5 headed monster we all know and love. She is a god of the draconic pantheon and has been around for tens of thousands of years.
Tiamat the Dark Lady was a human sorceress/goddess that was a member of the Sumerian/Babylonian pantheon and travelled to Toril with the other gods that eventually became the Untheric pantheon. Tiamat the Dark Lady had a penchant for taking the form of a 3 headed dragon (red, green, and blue).
Despite the fact that the two goddesses had the same name (different titles) they were totally separate deities in totally separate pantheons with totally separate portfolios. I envisaged Tiamat the Dark Lady as having the portfolios of Rebellion, Chaos, Anarchy, etc.
It was an easy thing for Tiamat the Dragon Queen to take over the worship of Tiamat the Dark Lady. She just started answering the prayers of the Dark Lady's faithful and no one was any the wiser (same name, both like dragons and take dragon form, so who would know or care if they are different). The high priest of the Church of the Dark Lady (Tiglath) however has noticed her god's sudden shift towards evil, rather than being focused upon rebellion (Tiamat the Dark Lady was probably CN).
Now Tiamat the Dragon Queen is the sole being and Tiamat the Dark Lady exists only as an avatar of that god. I personally play avatars as free willed constructs that have to act within the portfolio of the god but are otherwise their own beings (makes it more interesting and allows for a god's return after being absorbed by another).
I hope to solidify the rules on deities in a later issue which should support the was in which i portray the gods for my version of FR (based on the immortals boxed set - thankyou Arcanamach for that pointer).
Now onto Typhon and Set. One major criticism of the Mulhorandi pantheon that everyone has is they are too much like the real world egyptian pantheon so i was attempting to create reasons for why they are as they are but without it being related to the real world.
The animal heads is one such glaring real world comparison and i was stumped to explain it until i came across a stray history entry that described beast cults arriving in Mulhorand and Bast subsuming one and becoming more cat like in personality.
So i decided that the absorption of deities had a physical effect as well. Mulhorandi deities do not tolerate people within their borders openly worshipping other gods (its in the sourcebooks somewhere) so they would have tried to convert these beast cultists. While the cult icons are still alive that would not work, but once the icons are destroyed and subsumed into the Mulhorandi gods themselves it would be possible.
However if some random foreign priest comes up to you and says "my god is your god" you would scoff and tell him to stick it because your god is a massive hawk and his is some human looking guy. If however the mulhorandi gods take on the physical aspects of the beast cult icons then it is more likely to have some success in converting the cultists. So wearing animal helmets/head dresses seemed like an appropriate idea.
Then that moved me on to Set and his strange physical characterists (scales, jackal head, skin as black as night) so i figured Set killed a number of powerful beings and absorbed them into himself. I had the name of the Skriaxit (some kind of powerful being of darkness unleashed by the Imaskari no doubt) but i didnt have a name for the jackal god and when i looked under Set it had the name Typhon, so i picked that one.
That Typhon is an alias of Pazuzu may or may not connect the two (i didnt know of his alias until know).
If however i was to try and connect them it could go one of two ways.
1 - Typhon was indead an aspect of Pazuzu. Pazuzu probably killed the original typhon long ago and sent that aspect to Toril as a replacement and to gain worship. Set then killed Typhon and there we have it.
2 - Typhon was some kind of primordial creature that once roamed the lands of Raurin and when the Imaskari arrived he moved into the Hordelands Basin along with many other primordials (who later became the beast cults mentioned in the history snippet i found). For whatever reason those beast cults moved into Mulhorand and Set killed Typhon and absorbed his power trying to steal his worshippers. Set was not particularly successful and a number of beast worshippers moved on past Mulhorand (spreading across Faerun). Those cultists of Typhon outside of Mulhorand are being catered to by Pazuzu while those within Mulhorand are catered to by Set.
There are many ways to play it, and i intended that the absorption of the beast cults changed the personalities of the gods themselves so whatever they are know is not what they once were.
I imagined in the distant past that gods were not so common and primordials existed in greater number. Primordials are really just unique beings of greater power than normal beings (that doesnt mean they are super powerful titans of destruction - just a jackal that is as big as a bear and can manifest a few magic abilities for instance). These primordials naturally attract worshippers (people worship beings of power as gods) but not enough worship to make them gods, so they wander the planet with their cultists. I think in early realms products Ed Greenwood referred to them as quasi deities, and i try to stick to that idea.
The Turami strike me as an ancient people much like the Talfir people of western Faerun. They were certainly outcompeted by all the other racial groups of humans in Faerun but i often wonder what they would be like. That they are ancient and there before all other humans leads me to believe that they probably worshipped the most ancient of gods (like Shar) and using that angle i tried to work in a corruption of the Mulan people (multiple references to darkness and shadows).
Anyway i hope i answered your questions. If not then by all means ask away. Im glad you are reading it and enjoying it. I think i am nearly done with the old empires. Issue 6 should include the last of the developments for that region (including a new organisation - i bet no one can guess which one but it is mentioned in the Old Empires sourcebook).
Are you linking Tiamat the Dark Lady in any way to Dahak (the three headed dragon spirit of death from Babylonian mythology)? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 14:04:07
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Well Anhur is a mulhorandi deity. He stepped into Ramman's shoes to take his worshippers, but that doesnt mean he was under any obligation to protect Unther, he certainly has no portfolio of "protection of Unther" and he was probably more interested in gaining the deific power from Rammans worshippers and ensuring no one else got it (like Hoar) than he was fulfilling his duty as war god of Unther.
Ramman's status as protector of Unther was largely symbolic as well, he did little to protect the people from Gilgeam's tyranny, and he had at least a thousand years to try.
The only thing stopping Mulhorand from invading Unther was an old alliance between the two empires to stop them destroying one another while they were at their peak. With Gilgeam gone and Unther's government destroyed (which it undoubtedly was), Unther no longer existed as a state.
For the invasion to take place it had to have the backing of the Pharaoh and the presence of Lord Khemenet means that the church of Horus-Re was also involved.
My personal opinion on the gods is that they have very little direct involvement with the lives of their worshippers so the decision to invade would have been made by a human being, probably the high priest of the church of Anhur, who approached the Pharoah who agreed and then the church of Horus-Re wanted a piece of the action. The mulhorandi are probably quite happy that their eternal empire is expanding once more. And while they might feel sorry for the death of Unther that wasnt their fault and it would be foolish not to exploit the opportunity.
Of course non of my opinions are any more valid than your own, im just presenting my alternate version. The more i read about the various sources for Tiamat the more difficulty i had reconciling them with the goddess herself.
She has a high priest (Tiglath) that doesnt like her, she existed in Faerun since -31000 DR and then travelled across the universe to rescue her worshippers (just manifest an avatar like any other god and walk to Imaskar). She had multiple and varied avatars when most gods only had the one, and she was only a demipower. She was a lawful god of dragons and yet had a title of "Queen of Chaos", and was known in Unther as a deity of chaos and rebellion. She died during the Time of Trouble so many times and yet still had enough power left to kill Gilgeam. She was listed in early sources as being a quasi-deity that used to roam Faerun (so she wasnt even a proper god at that point). And dont get me started on the official explanation of the battle between Tiamat and Gilgeam (Tiamat avatar kills Gilgeam avatar, real Gilgeam kills Tiamat avatar, Real TIamat kills Real Gilgeam????)
So i came up with an explanation for all of the above that made sense to me. If it makes sense to you and you like it then by all means use it. If not then any other explanation will be just as good. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 14:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Still I think Anhur violated the more ancient notions of good that Mulani adhere to, with his actions, and invaded Unther after he became it's protector, by absorbing Ramman's portfolio and aspects. He's definitely now a harmful presence to Untheri.
I don't understand this.
In 1358 we have the ToT and a lot of stuff happens, among other things Ramman bites the dust and Anhur, enforcing the millenia old pact of alliance between the Mulhorandi and the Untheri God-Kings, steps in to avoid disaster and beat back the Chessentan army.
Then the ToT ends, the Mulhorandi God-Kings disappear and from then on it's just mortal servants of the various gods that act. It's not Anhur invading Unther, it's the mortal army of Mulhorand invading Unther, with some mortal servants of Anhur inside and on the other side of the fence there are probably a few mortal servants of Ramman (Anhur) trying to stop them.
Anhur isn't violating anything, he's not on Toril anymore.
Now, if you really want to find a fault in Anhur specifically i would ask how the f**k could he accept worshipers in Thay (as Ramathant), since he personally warred with them for four hundred years (and even lost an incarnation ... or manifestation, crap i always mix them ... to them). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 15:46:19
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The problem is that Anhur's action of cheating out Hoar, and finding a hole in the ancient pact would thought as rather something bad/immoral, even if we go with Ancient Egyptian morality. And he's CG deity, finding holes in agreements is their thing, but using it to invade an another country seems like an Anathema to CG. In facts, it sounds more LE.
And if go such route, Hoar, Shevarash, and Vhaeraun should be good aligned. Even Shar could get a shot at neutrality, as technicaly she's right that darkness and nothingness is original state of being, and there would no suffering in inexistence.
And I think that Unther had a chance rebuilt itself after Gilgeam's death, as did defend itself for years against Mulhorand. And Hoar, if empowered by Ramman's energies, could help.
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Edited by - Baltas on 22 Aug 2014 16:02:53 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 16:02:33
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Also, these are the principles of Maat, laws of Egyptian morality, that Anhur did break(I think):
I have not stolen - he stole Hoar's prize
I have not been an eavesdropper. - must have spied Hoar and Ramman to do so.
I have not caused the shedding of tears. - A lot uf Untheri shed their tears
I have not dealt deceitfully. - Manipulated and ancient pact, somehow stolen portfolios that Assuran should get.
I have not envied or craved for that which belongs to another. - the situation with Ramman and Hoar again.
I have never magnified my condition beyond what was fitting. - Again the pact thing.
There are possibly a few more, but I'm not sure if they fit what Anhur done, or they repeat themselves.
[EDIT]
Well, Azuth, Hoar, Wee Jas, old Mystra, Helm and even Vhaeraun are nice when compared to those guys...
And I still think Unther had a good chance to defend itself, seing it lasted a few decades after that. |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Aug 2014 16:11:45 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 16:54:57
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Unther was definitely dead and gone.
Gilgeam died in 1358 DR along with Ramman. In fact all its original gods were dead. The only gods remaining in the Untheric pantheon were Mulhorandi and other interlopers (except Tiamat although i class her as an interloper as well).
In 1359 DR the priests of Gilgeam (who make up the government) are driven from Unthalass and flee to the citadel of Black Ash which later explodes and kills them all.
1365 DR Alasklerbanbastos reappears and his draconic vassals seize Threskel and much of Chessenta and Unther.
At this point there is nothing left of Unther except its people. The above are all canon events and during the Alternate Dimensions project i have been expanding upon them to make sense of the situation in Unther. If the government was gone who was running the show, how did the arrival of the dragons of Alasklerbanbastos change all that.
In looking to decide if Unther survived i checked to see what defined it and unfortunately for millennia, Unther was defined by Gilgeam, he was a tyrant that completely dictated everything in Unther society. If anyone disagreed with him they were slain or enslaved.
When Gilgeam was killed Unther ceased to be. There were lords of Unther, but most of those were as evil and grasping as Gilgeam himself and they were either killed by the people following Gilgeam's death or set themselves up as petty tyrants of the settlements they ruled.
Messemprar was independent as of 1358 DR. Unthalass was under the control of Alasklerbanbastos. Firetrees was run by the Cult of Tiamat and Dalath was run by merchant houses that were loyal to Maladraedior. There was no ruler of Unther, no government to organise it, just chaos and confusion.
Mulhorand invading probably did the people of Unther a favour as it gave them something to unite against.
However saying all that, i quite like Unther, so i saved it. As of 1375 DR Unther is back and ruled from Messemprar with Unthalass acting as a buffer between Unther and Mulhorand and controlled by both.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 20:18:46
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Hmm, that makes sense I think. And yeah I like your version of Unther, is miles better than their fate in 4e...And I love Akanu!
I may had got I bit overexcited about the Anhur/Hoar/Ramman/Unther deal, but it just bugged me for a long time.
Also about the Mesopotamian pantheon in D&D, they're an odd bunch, that split into two diffrent pantheons. Anu even aparently split into 3 beings, the Sumerian An, the Babylonian Anshar and Anu(and those two are father and son). Inanna is LE, and Ishtar is TN. I think Tiamat, being related to such a bizzare pantheon, can have some strange things going on about her. Maybe the Polychromatic Dragon is the Sumerian Tiamat, and The Dark Lady was the Babylonian one, or vice versa? And there is is still Takhisis...
But still, your convergent genesis explanation(that they are two unrelated beins that became similar) is very good, if there is any. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 20:37:10
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Well thankyou very much, im glad that you like it.
I find it is always best to keep things simple. Break something down into its simplest components or the facts that you know for sure. From there you can build up a picture however you want.
I have a few nation write-ups for Unther coming in issue VI so you could run Unther between 1365 DR or after 1375 DR with a bit more information, and hopefully the campaign arc in Issue V for the invasion of Unther will give a few more adventuring ideas during the invasion itself.
There is space for many of the gods of Unther to return. In the sourcebooks it states that Gilgeam drove off or destroyed many of the gods of the Untheric pantheon. We have no details of which ones were driven off and which ones were destroyed.
If the gods were driven away there is only one place they could disappear to. We can assume they didn't go to Chessenta, Thay or the Faerunian pantheon because there would be some mention of them.
Unther in its early incarnation (before Gilgeam) controlled Shaar so I reckon many of the gods ended up there. I realise it states deity sourcebooks that the Shaar is part of the Faerunian pantheon but given its distance from the rest of the pantheon and the proximity to the Old Empires it is far more likely to be a contested region and so you could have any number of mulan gods running around (they would probably be demi-gods or even lesser than that).
Prior to Tiamat's arrival she could have been anything, and following the arrival of the mulan gods there is a thousand years until Tiamat takes any meaningful action during the Orcgate Wars. Who or what she was until that point is entirely up to you. She could have acquired her dragon form during that time or maybe she had a terribly magical accident and merged with three dragons.
My own personal theory was more mundane that, she used magic to assume dragon form (so often that it became innate) and she spent many centuries involved in breeding experiments with dragons (usually personally). So basically she is a powerful human sorceress with a serious dragon fetish. |
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