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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 16:11:51
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Imagine the following scene.
A party of four adventures hack their way into the bowels of the earth.
Lead by a Neutral good Human cleric of Lathander, supported by a Lawful good elf wizard, Chaotic Good Halfling Bard and Chaotic Neutral (somewhat unhinged) Human Ranger (favored enemy drow).
After one fight, a drow fighter with 1 hp remaining surrenders, thinking himself smart in doing so. He is prone at the time, putting up his hands in an open display that he bares no arms - but smileing smugly with blood stained teeth.
Only one party member can understand the drow dialect (the elf wizard) and he tells the wizard that he does not support the current rulers of the city, and will give the party information if they let him live.
In truth, the drow is buying time for reinforcments to arrive. And the party know that drow are notorious liars. however, the surrendered drow, knows that surfacers are weak.
The following scene plays out (with me texting me and the wizard communicating through txt message so that the others would not understand what was being said (and thus use OOC knowledge))
- The Good Cleric says OOC 'im not a paladin' in order to justify why killing the drow should be ok. He goes to kill the drow, but when he realises the wizard can speak drow he stays his sword. He goes on to justify his thoughts by saying the Drow are evil, and have caused much suffering on the surface.
- The Bard stays out of it.
- The Ranger threatens to kill the drow, but is stopped by the Wizard when he tells her the drow wishes to tell them information.
- The Wizard leaves out the drows alleigances when describing the drows bargain to the party, downplaying his use. Though this could be Elf / vs / drow bias (which is totally in character) he then does not stop the Ranger from stabbing the drow through the Weapon Arm shoulder blade, twisting it, and leaving the drow to writhe about on the floor howling curses.
- The Drow turns back on his deal, revealing instead a roiling pit of hateful spite and distain beneath, exclaiming that the Wael (fools) had given his Abbanen (allies) all the time they needed to send for reinforcments.
- The Wizard responds by saying 'Then i leave you to the Mercy of my Companions' with a sneer.
- Takeing a look outside (down a chasm) they note a sizable warparty of drow mounted on cliff-climbing riding lizards were quickly closing on their position.
- The Ranger knocks the drow out with her boot and leaves him to bleed out while the party prepare for the next encounter.
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My question is. How does this ring for you all alignment wise?
The reason i ask is, if the Cleric of Lathander would have killed the Prisoner when he had the Chance, would his god truely have revoked his spells in the face of a possibly lethal confrontation (as per the incoming warparty)? Or just let him Run his Spells down until he prays next, at which point, he will have flashbacks of the drow and be forced to atone?
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 17:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Fendrikor
Imagine the following scene.
In truth, the drow is buying time for reinforcments to arrive. And the party know that drow are notorious liars. however, the surrendered drow, knows that surfacers are weak.
My question is. How does this ring for you all alignment wise?
The reason i ask is, if the Cleric of Lathander would have killed the Prisoner when he had the Chance, would his god truely have revoked his spells in the face of a possibly lethal confrontation (as per the incoming warparty)? Or just let him Run his Spells down until he prays next, at which point, he will have flashbacks of the drow and be forced to atone?
1. Ultimately, the DM is the arbiter of things in each game. Opinions you get from outside the group are just opinions.
2. This particular drow had ulterior motives for surrendering. The party didn't murder a good elf. They listened to a captive for a while, and then stopped listening. Few/no NPCs who have any knowledge of drow would cringe if they had witnessed the PCs' actions.
3. The PCs didn't show mercy in the end, but I wouldn't call it evil given this drow's intent. I would call it "a dose of his own medicine" or maybe "responding in kind." This drow would have done worse to them if he'd had the chance.
4. Lathander is, among other things, the god of new beginnings. If the drow had been Good, or doing something Good, and the priest had condoned bloody murder after becoming aware and understanding the drow's intent to "turn over a new leaf" then yea, atonement should probably be required. As it is, the priest condoned killing an evil individual, hence protecting an unknown number of future victims who are trying to put some Good into the world... and I don't see that being a sin in the church of Lathander.
5. There's a "but" in there though. The priest said "the Drow are evil, and have caused much suffering on the surface."
5a. That's painting all drow with the same brush, failing to acknowledge choice. The choice to change, forsake the evil ways of your culture or your personal upbringing, and turn to Good... that should be important in the church of Lathander. If the priest had reason to believe that this particular drow was not an exception --that this drow was an evil murderer-- then no atonement is necessary, and he just sorta stuck his foot in his mouth by talking about all drow instead of this particular one.
5b. How much evil has this particular priest witnessed firsthand, being performed by drow? Is he saying that the drow are evil based on stories told in taprooms, or based on personal experience? In a broad/general sense, it's not Good to kill an individual based on the stories told about their race.
6. In any case, I don't think Lathander would revoke already-prayed-for spells in the face of imminent lethal danger. It would be decidedly evil to prevent the priest from healing his comrades -- they must each answer to their own consciences and deities for their actions or inactions. The consequences for this priest, if Lathander chooses to punish him, should be something that doesn't have deadly consequences for the priest's companions. I think, if Lathander decides that punishment is warranted:
6a. Lathander will only mete out punishment to his own followers.
6b. He will impart a vision beforehand which makes it clear that the priest has offended him, and there will be consequences should he fail to make amends. This vision will probably be communicated by a servant rather than the god himself. Only in the cases of incredible transgression should Lathander himself voice his wrath directly at a PC. This was not a big deal. If any punishment is called for, it's a ruler-smacked-on-the-knuckles kind of thing.
7. All just my reading of the situation, and my opinion. YMMV. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 18:21:15
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| I look at it this way. The drow was in a group that attacked them. Therefore, he has shown that he is willing to kill surface beings. He surrendered only when he knew he would die in combat. Just because someone surrenders does not mean you have to let them go free or that you are obligated to take them captive IF they were trying to kill you before that. In an environment like the underdark, and especially with drow, its not optimal to start taking care of surrendering opponents who have shown their willingness to stab you. Would it be a good act to show them mercy? Yes. Would it be an evil act to not show them mercy? No. Now, had the drow shown from the get go that he had good intentions and the party killed him anyway, that would be another thing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 21:38:55
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I don't think the cleric would have been penalized too much. Sure drow have seen alot of action in the various novels and a few sourcebooks, but about all the average surfacer would know is that the drow are a bunch (every last one of them) of black-hearted murderers who worship spiders. Dale folk would laugh in your face if you were trying to tell them a tale about a Drizzt Do'Urden and a good drow at that.
Killing dark elves should bother surface folk about as much as killing other types of monsters. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 21:40:49
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I don't consider killing a surrendering enemy to be an evil act, particularly if said enemy was trying to kill you just moments before attempting to surrender. Unless the enemy is willing to provide useful information, I see no reason to spare them. Nor do I see anything wrong with killing them after they've provided said information (and even then, I would doubt anything they had told me), since they would be of evil alignment. And if the party cleric has a spell that allows him/her to communicate with the dead, you don't even have to worry about taking prisoners anyway. I also think it exceedingly stupid to even think that the cleric (of Lathander, no less!) would have any reason to atone for the death of an evil character (especially that of a damned spiderkisser).
Otherwise, I agree with what xaeyruudh and sleyvas have already said. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 21:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I don't think the cleric would have been penalized too much. Sure drow have seen alot of action in the various novels and a few sourcebooks, but about all the average surfacer would know is that the drow are a bunch (every last one of them) of black-hearted murderers who worship spiders. Dale folk would laugh in your face if you were trying to tell them a tale about a Drizzt Do'Urden and a good drow at that.
Killing dark elves should bother surface folk about as much as killing other types of monsters.
I also have to agree with this, even though I love Eilistraeen drow. And it's also been stated in the novels that Eilistraeens are frequently killed by surface folk, so I doubt the cleric would have had to atone for anything even if the drow had been sincere, because Lathander wouldn't care.
One good thing to come from Eilistraee's death is that now, if I were to find myself in the Realms, I could commit genocide with a clean conscience (pity it isn't that easy in the RW). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 23:46:45
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Foolish PCs, wasting a useful hostage! Drow are generally difficult to capture alive.
Of course more drow are on the way as reinforcements, but they cannot actually know that (even if the drow admitted it, they would be wise to assume him a liar buying time to escape).
But even if this drow survivor wouldn't be missed, he must possess knowledge useful to them (or to someone else they know). The PCs might hold him for ransom. Sell him to slavery. At worst, execute him in a manner chosen to provide a gruesome warning display (or distraction) to their enemies. Assorted drow body parts might even be useful to alchemists, provided they're fresh. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 02:30:57
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| There ya go. Feed him a Delayed Blast Fireball or two and send him on his way. hahaha |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 14:43:38
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| Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 17:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out.
Yep, I always liked Zaknafein's thoughts: "If they care so dearly for their Spider Queen, then let them go and visit her!" |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 21:23:46
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| Personally, as much as I love drow PCs, I'm rather tired of all the good press drow have been getting the past decade. I liked them better when they were a mysterious race who did depraved things to their victims so far as anyone on the surface or the Underdark knew. They were actually a frightening race way back when. They've lost much of their mystique. I rarely allow them as PCs in my games. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 21:49:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
There ya go. Feed him a Delayed Blast Fireball or two and send him on his way. hahaha
"It's the all-new Delayed Time Release Fireball™, by Bayer®, in convenient 6-, 12-, and 24-hour-dose blister packs.
'Plop, plop, fizz, fizz; Oh, what conflagration it is!'" |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2014 : 23:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Personally, as much as I love drow PCs, I'm rather tired of all the good press drow have been getting the past decade. I liked them better when they were a mysterious race who did depraved things to their victims so far as anyone on the surface or the Underdark knew. They were actually a frightening race way back when. They've lost much of their mystique. I rarely allow them as PCs in my games.
They lost that mystique way back in the late 80's. However, the whole underdark lost that mystique. Seeing an illithid would have been an extreme horror years ago. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 01:07:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
There ya go. Feed him a Delayed Blast Fireball or two and send him on his way. hahaha
"It's the all-new Delayed Time Release Fireball™, by Bayer®, in convenient 6-, 12-, and 24-hour-dose blister packs.
'Plop, plop, fizz, fizz; Oh, what conflagration it is!'"
hahah. +1 win! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4696 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 01:35:50
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I got to looking at a few things of the OP.
quote:
Lead by a Neutral good Human cleric of Lathander, supported by a Lawful good elf wizard,
quote:
The Wizard leaves out the drows alleigances when describing the drows bargain to the party, downplaying his use.
Is this lawful good, alignment adjustment might be indicated.
Reading those two parts, I clearly would offer a pass to all of the other PCs for anything consider a bad act. The LG elf lied by not telling the party the claim of not being a spider kisser. With that withheld information even the Ranger should get a pass, however even a Drow with one hit point left and sword stabbed and twisted in arm should have inflicted at least one additional hit point of damage.
Yes I know it is not my game, just considering all of this it appeared the Cleric was more of alignment issue then would appear fair. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 22:50:32
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Ah, but perhaps the accursed drow are so treacherous that normal principles of justice do not apply? I'm a bad boy, I feel that cruel and unusual crimes deserve cruel and unusual punishment.
But then again, unless the PCs just happen to be elves, or have backstories involving personal suffering caused by drow, I would wonder what reasons justify their compulsive hatred of the drow.
Lathander may be LG, but he is not the god of justice, forgiveness, or mercy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4696 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 22:59:54
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| Er the elf was LG, the Cleric NG. I suspect the elf needs alignment change or is leaning toward one. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 08:18:03
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| Being Good does not mean being stupid. If someone (especially from a mostly evil race like the drow) is so blatantly lying to you and just pretending to surrender then I dont see anything wrong with what the players did. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 15:18:11
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I don't remember what sourcebook or novel this is from, but an elf once said: "To associate with drow is to become as corrupt as them." Which would make for an interesting story about how the elf and his dealings with his hated kin that make him more loose in his morals. Hate can rot a person from the inside out. Not saying he'd turn evil, but maybe depending on his actions he'll start sliding into the chaotic or even lawful neutral disposition.
Alignment change should be a gradual thing. Good people do make mistakes, so one slip-up might give his friends pause. "By the Moonmaiden I wasn't expecting that out of Elarinel! Has a bit of the Black Archer's wrath in him today!"
Once it becomes a habit on the other hand, that's a different story. But, we are talking about drow. And I doubt very much the gods of good are going to penalize someone for sticking a blade into or boot-kicking an evil drow elf. Elves hate the drow and vice versa. |
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 16:30:22
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:/ yeah but how much of that Hate is Cultural? The problem here is the Drow 'Is' different from the monsters in that it is Sentiant, capable of decisions.
I dunno, i guess since the party are Dalers - Being brutal and practical in the name of a Utilitarian approach to protecting their loved ones can make sense.
The Drow, just the previous night, had raided and sacked a Hamlet only four miles from the Underdark entry. They slaughtered the large garrison the players had redirected there to protect it, flayed the bodies and animated them as zombies. One of the players happened upon the scene shortly before her write in... she went into the town, put down all the zombies single handedly and burned the village. This was the ranger who hates drow and undead. The Cleric saw the smoke rising in the direction of the town, he knew that there were Dawnbringers and atleast one Knight of the Aster in town at the time. The Elf has little experiance with drow as he hails from another reality where there are no drow (he transfered campaigns), Thus he approaches them with no small measure of curious disdain for all he has heard. The bard did not play a large roll in the scene, but he is a Harper for what its worth.
I guess - re explaining the scene to the party - The Cleric is playing the 'Hero' archetype. he is a natural leader, everyone respects and trusts him, he is brave and strong and angling to gain the Saint Template at higher levels (after a suitable matyrdom). The Image of him walking up to anything that was surrendering (even if the drow was dubious in doing so) and running them through seems hardly what a good character would do. The Elf explained to me that he simply 'miss read my text, and that he wont withhold information from the group again'. The Ranger had no explaining to do, She has a pathological hatred for the Drow she can barely contain - her actions are warranted.
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 09:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Fendrikor
:/ yeah but how much of that Hate is Cultural? The problem here is the Drow 'Is' different from the monsters in that it is Sentiant, capable of decisions.
A lot of 'monsters' that the players will face will be sentient. Beholders are sentient, and it's possible they could run into them in the Underdark. Would it be wise of them to parlay with a beholder? I don't think so - so why would Drow be any different?
I like shades of gray morality in my games, but if you're playing D&D alignments as intended they're pretty black and white and straight forward. If you kill something or someone that detects as evil, you're pretty much always in the right. The only two things that would really need to be taken into consideration is whether suffering evil to live has less risk than killing them, and the manner in which they kill them. For example, killing someone who is evil out of hate or anger, and knowingly condemning innocents to die as a result. That would be an evil action, not because of killing them, but because they killed them out of hate or anger AND doomed innocents as a result. Also the manner in which someone is killed could be evil - torturing them slowly to make their end agonizing obviously is an evil act.
An individual who detects as evil either has that alignment because they've committed horrific acts in the past, or are evil by nature (example: demons and devils). As a result, you know with certainty that ending their life is either bringing about justice for the actions they've committed in the past or will commit in the future.
There is the minor issue of redemption, and that is always a possibility. However, redemption is rare, and it's unusual to be in ideal circumstances to give it. Trying to redeem a truly evil drow in the Underdark, while running from his allies and friends... that's not practical or realistic. In the end, he was evil for a reason - he was a bad person. Thus, killing him is justified in D&D because killing sentient beings is neither good nor evil.
If someone wants to step away from the black and white interpretations of alignment, they have two choices. First, they can play loosey-goosey with what it means to be 'good' and 'evil'. In other words, they can make the words pretty much devoid of all real meaning, and lump non-charitable merchants and grumpy snobbish nobles along side demons, devils, and beholders - pretending that they are somehow equatable.
Alternatively, you can do what I do - shove pretty much everyone into the neutral alignments and make them work like hell to be either good or evil. Thus, encountering someone who is good or evil means something. This means the majority of my monsters actually aren't evil - not because they're 'good' or 'nice' - but mostly because they don't perform evil acts either sufficiently or horrific enough to qualify. That doesn't mean they won't try to kill you, but it does mean that they can be led down a different path.
That allows me to avoid the obvious slippery slope problem with sentient races, which you seem to have - which is basically the implication that genocide is not only a reasonable act - it's a GOOD act. It also allows me to retain the clear nature of D&D alignments. Good and Evil, Lawful and Chaotic - these words have very clear meanings and understandings in my games, and the vast majority of people fall into varying shades of gray neutrality. |
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Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 06:03:50
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| To go along with the "work like hell" idea. I was recently rereading the Paladin handbook from 2e, and it has some pretty stringent requirements before a person detects as evil - which I really like. Phrases like "Unswerving in their devotion" (to evil) and "at least 9th level" came up. I much prefer this kind of weighty language when it comes to questions of good and evil. Most of the world, after all, exists in that nebulous in-between. Even members of 'evil' races, such as the drow. |
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 08:35:08
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Thing is, Drow dont even Register on Detect evil until they have the hit dice for it.
Sure, drow society encourages selfishness. A meritocracy based on cruelty, trechery, ambition and power. Even the lowliest drow mushroom farmer, Dreams of obtaining more power. It is a thoroughly dark hearted culture.
Despite this however, how does their culture justify traits that are encouraged, if not expected, in their world - to become common place for surfacers?
I mean, does not executing a prisoner, regardless of their intent or your suspicions, make you - in essense - just as bad as them?
I often ask my players the Ethical question of 'what would you do with the children of the monsters you just killed'
Results generally were similar for the Wizard, Cleric and Paladin (whome i didnt mention - as she was absent) saying 'I would take and protect the children until i can find an orphanage or foster parents i trust well enough to give them a fighting chance'. The Cleric took it a step further saying he would even travel to other Kingdoms just to find somewhere tollerant enough for them to lead a decent life.
Another question i ask is, how old is old enough to die by your blade. This varys, but the average age my players have settled on (so long as they are hostile and attacking them at the time) is aproximately 15 in human years (equiv age and maturity by all racial standards). Even 'i' find this somewhat unheroic to slay children. though the common argument is '15 was not so young in medievil times'
When i changed up the Child scenario to become more utilitarian ( by saying they found the children, but if they take them - they would be unable to slay a Dragon that was going to Sack a village of Elves if they didnt reach its lair first ) The Wizard said he would kill the children out of Mercy, putting them to sleep and then gassing them with Cloudkill, as they would surely perish on their own and they did not have time to get back to town. The Paladin attempted to spread herself thin... which resulted in the Children being taken to a good home, only to fight the dragon AS it was attacking the elf village. And the Cleric ended up deciding to stay with the Children until the Dragon came to him (as the premise for the Dragons existance was, the Goblins were raiding in order to tithe it. The dragon would then logically, come to kill the goblins first for not paying their tithe ontime).
I asked the paladin right out if she would simply use her 'Detect evil' as a green light to kill things. And she could not help but answer 'yes, is that not what it is for?'. I had to remind her, that not all evil creatures are a threat, nor is it her right to judge them. In the case of the Prisoner, if she would have executed him - i would have stripped her of her Paladin abilities for a breach of code.
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
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Mercy and Prisoners. What is your view.
