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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 18:03:12
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Ok I'm currently building a character for my wife. She's playing a bard who also happens to be a 'gypsy' type character. So, I'm wondering who would make the best gypsy-ish deity?
A few generalizations about gypsy culture:
1. They do not recognize the existence of private property (they believe the fruit of the land belongs to all).
2. For the most part they do not seek wealth for its own sake, only for its practical value.
3. They are free-thinkers and believes in personal freedom.
4. They usually revere nature.
5. They may be more inclined to worship concepts moreso than actual deities.
6. They are extremely loyal, but their loyalty is hard to earn.
7. Possession=ownership.
8. Rigid beliefs/customs are foolish, better to be free and 'be yourself' they say.
Most of this comes from the 2e Complete Bard's Handbook and I consider it a decent enough treatise on the gypsy culture (at least as far as DnD goes).
With the above generalizations I am thinking any number of gods may work for them. Mask, Tymora, any nature deity, Deneir or Milil (as music deities) and a number of Seldarine could work as well. The closest 'ideal' I've come across is Olidammara from Oerth/Greyhawk (CN deity of music, revels, wine, rogues, humor and trickery). I may simply port him over to the Realms but...
But, if you had a single Realmsian 'patron' deity for gypsies, who would it be?
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 19:42:40
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| Hmm... You know, that's a good darned question. Because of my somewhat sympathetic view of RW gypsies, I'd be inclined to say either Tymora, Milil, or Lliira (generalizations #3 and #8 appear to be quite similar to certain aspects of Lliiran dogma). But if I had to make a completely unbiased choice, I'd agree with you that Olidammara is probably the most appropriate, 'gypsy-ish' deity. |
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 22 Mar 2014 19:43:08 |
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Green Giant
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 22:38:38
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Races of Faerun has a human ethnicity called the Gur that are similar to gypsies. They are known as Selune's Children or the people of the highway. Besides worshipping Selune they also venerate Savras.
They resemble natives of Rashemen who may have fled from the destruction of Rauthmathar and Narfell although they've since intermingled with other ethnic groups. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 23:29:07
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Is it too wrong that upon reading the thread title my first thought was "What, Princess Ria has ascended? Cool." - well, more or less.  |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 00:57:18
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My first thought would be Gur Humans who worship Selune/Savras...
Though a halfling who worships Tymora would be seem to sorta fit as well... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 01:07:49
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Shaundakul would be perfect in my eyes for Gypsies.
"Shaundakul, the Rider of the Winds, is the Faerūnian lesser deity of traveling and travelers, exploration, caravans, the wind as well as mining and miners. Recently, Lord Ao gifted him with the portfolio of portals and portal-walking. He manifests bodily as a bearded man who wears a traveler's cape and is armed with a greatsword called the Sword of Shadows."
Just the Traveling and Travelers part would fit for Gypsies (as well as a Gypsy Caravan!). He might not be their ONLY God though...but I'm sure anyone that travels as much as Gypsies would have him high on their list of gods to pray to. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 03:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Shaundakul would be perfect in my eyes for Gypsies.
"Shaundakul, the Rider of the Winds, is the Faerūnian lesser deity of traveling and travelers, exploration, caravans, the wind as well as mining and miners. Recently, Lord Ao gifted him with the portfolio of portals and portal-walking. He manifests bodily as a bearded man who wears a traveler's cape and is armed with a greatsword called the Sword of Shadows."
Just the Traveling and Travelers part would fit for Gypsies (as well as a Gypsy Caravan!). He might not be their ONLY God though...but I'm sure anyone that travels as much as Gypsies would have him high on their list of gods to pray to.
I was thinking the same thing, myself.  |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
161 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 05:56:56
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| polytheism. worship them all :) |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 08:29:50
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... what gods to worship
Selune, Savras, Tymora, Mielikki, Shaundakul |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 18:09:23
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| Shaundakul was the first that came to my mind. However, Selune, Savras, and Tymora all make sense as well. However, I wouldn't leave out Leira and Mask either. |
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Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 07:21:59
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I thought of Shaundakul as well but there are other factors for gypsy culture (which I've been researching the past couple of days...very interesting people).
I've decided to port over Olidammara (the more gods the better in my view). But Oli will be a very gypsy-ish deity so will be making some minor adjustments for that. Thanks for the responses folks. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 11:09:15
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Don't forget the Valantra, spellsingers of 2e Wizards & Rogues of the Realms sourcebook.
I've used some in my game and they sympathyzed with Mystra but were followers of Selūne, which was a god of travelers (sailors, navigators), stars (astrology, omen reading), acceptance (including lycanthropes, and one of the gypsies was a lycanthrope, after all), and female spellcaster (fortune tellers). |
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(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 18:46:38
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| I'm sure a variety of deities are worshiped by them but I was looking for one that really fit them as their 'main' god(dess). Selune seems a natural for them...but she's not associated with the more hedonistic aspects of their culture (not that her followers couldn't be). I'm retooling Olidammara to be more in line with their ways. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 24 Mar 2014 18:47:11 |
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Crai
Acolyte
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 21:31:25
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| I agree that the Gur fit the corollary comparisons to the real world Romani people. And it's duly noted that the Gur's predilection for renowned soothsaying and divining fit in well with the worship to Savras. But beyond the Gur having a prominence of gifted oracles ... I find their worship of Savras to be an odd fit from an alignment perspective(Savras is LN, the Gur are likely CN). Unless I'm missing something. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 23:18:20
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Hmmm.
Asmodeus lovingly accepts gypsy-folk, I hear. Already I can imagine gypsy caravans concealing hungry devils within their curtained circus wagons. An imp familiar riding every shoulder. Jugglers and acrobats playing with handfuls of Hellfire. The fangs of old gypsy oracles dripping fate across bloodsmeared tarot decks. Young children eagerly charmed away in the night by cackling old were-gypsy witches. Always obscured by a reeking fog of brimstone, always the fog, within which is heard growling wolves and scritching ravens and - perhaps - the muffled stumblings of zombies and ghouls. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 18:57:41
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Sorry I had to butt in on this old thread(I was considering making a new one on this subject) but people are often mistaken as to what "Gypsyish" is and don't realise in most cases used by white people, constitutes an ethnic slur.
I made a comic about this recently - http://crystallineprincess.tumblr.com/post/97434091660/ellie-the-glamrock-fairy-princess-in-cultural
You might be best off just having her as a general Bohemian type(like my character in the above comic) or a Moon Elf - they travel in caravans and fit some of the things people like about "Gypsies" but aren't really aping Romani culture. Also keep in mind that most Romani(and in fact, Gur in the setting) mostly travelled due to fleeing war and persecution - or to find work. They aren't inherently nomadic free spirit types, and are generally very poor.
Also Ayrik, um, that's like really really racist. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 19:40:41
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quote:
A few generalizations about gypsy culture:
1. They do not recognize the existence of private property (they believe the fruit of the land belongs to all).
Um... where do you get this from?
quote:
2. For the most part they do not seek wealth for its own sake, only for its practical value.
Not true. Because the Romani are generally so poor and persecuted, many of them do take to whatever wealth they can get as a show of culturally overcoming it. It's the same reason rappers sing about bling - it's not out of shallowness or greed, but rather the fact that when you're disenfranchised you will romanticise not being so.
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3. They are free-thinkers and believes in personal freedom.
Romani culture is actually quite strict in some regards, given the fact that they are a highly threatened people. Of course, being of a different culture to those surrounding them they may seem that way because they don't conform to the particular strict expectations of the outside world. They tend to value family and culture. Of course these are generalisations too and I don't want to speak for Romani.
In particular, the concept of Marimé - the idea of certain things being somehow impure in certain situations - dictates a lot of what Romani do. For example, women tend to wear long flowing skirts because the lower half of the body is considered Marimé due to menstural blood.
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4. They usually revere nature.
This is a hippie flower child thing that tends to get meshed with the image of Romani. Some do, some don't. It's not necessarily inherent to their culture. They're not earth worshippers - in fact most tend to take on the religion of the culture they settle in - while they do maintain a different culture they still adopt some customs.
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5. They may be more inclined to worship concepts moreso than actual deities.
Again, Romani tends to inherit the culture they settle in's religion, meshing it with their own which is derived from 9th century Hinduism/Caste systems.
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6. They are extremely loyal, but their loyalty is hard to earn.
To an extent true - they are loyal to their families and it can be hard for outsiders/gadjé to earn their trust - you know, given the amount of times we've literally tried to wipe them out. France is still at it.
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7. Possession=ownership.
This isn't a thing in our culture?
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8. Rigid beliefs/customs are foolish, better to be free and 'be yourself' they say.
Again, very much with odds with most Romani cultures. They tend to have a lot of strict regulations regarding cleanliness for one.
Some of the things you've missed which actually are true of both the "fairytale gypsy" stereotype and actual Romani people is that many of them do place a high cultural emphasis on musical and dance, and many of them tend to be master craftsmen/women as this is how they traditionally made much of their money, including fortune-telling(which was partly profiting off a stereotype that often saw them persecuted as "witches").
It really depends on the vitsa/familia however. There is no one Romani/Dom/"Gypsy" culture. And then there are Irish travellers also. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 20:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Also Ayrik, um, that's like really really racist.
Which comment of his was racist? I simply saw an interesting D&D scenario. |
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Edited by - Seethyr on 14 Sep 2014 20:43:18 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 21:14:52
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| ... because it saw an association between a marginalised culture and devils. it's pulling the scary outsider tropes and confirming people's "Fears" about Romani/Gurs because they turn out to be devils after all. It's appropriating the apparently thematically interesting parts of Romani/travelling culture to give your story a good villain. Try replacing "Gypsy" with "Black" or "Gay". I would puke if someone pulled that in my game and I'm glad my GM is cautious over stuff like this(the conversation over which resulted in the above comic). |
Edited by - Roseweave on 14 Sep 2014 21:15:39 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 22:12:38
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The OP did state his source, along with a disclaimer about recognizing that its a bit generic and shallow but that he finds it adequately workable for D&D gameplay objectives. He is not attempting to accurately simulate or reproduce an ethnicity, he is only attempting to emulate the (romanticized) generalities of gypsy culture.
And one cannot simply brand all gypsies as gypsies, even for such noble purposes as defending them against racism and persecution. I think its highly improbable that all gypsy folk in the Realms are descended from Romani (or any other) gypsies of our world.
Gypsy associations with devils and demons are a strictly Christian innovation, resulting from an old (and, at the time, politically contingent) Papal decree which condemned pagans and led to many centuries of gypsy (and Jew) persecution. Pre-Christian Europe was filled with a delightful variety of pagan deities, and the Romani/Samogyptian (Gypsy) peoples probably adopted superstitions and beliefs from every region they visited. They certainly didnt rigidly adhere to their original Slavonic religions, why think it impossible for particular gypsy caravans to worship Norse or Celtic or Indian godheads? Why think it impossible for Realms Gypsies to worship Mystra, Lathander, Silvanus, Mykrul, Talos, or Tyr?
Indeed, why is it necessary for Realms Gypsies to attend any particular deity whatsoever? Or for them to resemble Earth Gypsies? Perhaps they are militant and warlike worshippers of Torm and Tempus, or are oracles of Mystra renown for travelling to wherever fate requires them most? Perhaps they defy societal expectations and continue to revere lost gods like Tyche? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Sep 2014 22:30:26 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 22:27:41
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quote:
He is not attempting to accurately simulate or reproduce an ethnicity, he is only attempting to emulate the (romanticized) generalities of gypsy culture.
But this is racist, and oppressive. It's not generic and shallow it's in many cases completely at odds with the lived reality of people that are called "Gypsy" and have been persecuted sold into slavery and killed under that name. People need to realise that. Many of those romantic elements are already attached to other groups such as Moon Elves or just general bohemian types. There's no need to specifically call them Gypsy or attempt to recreate the more recognisable parts of Romani culture in a half-assed manner. If you want to play a wandering free spirit bohemian type, do it. But don't call it "gypsy" or cherry pick cultural identifiers from the Romani people and act like it's alternately either the same thing, or not a reflection of real world views on Romani at all. Obviously, since you're picking and choosing, it's somewhere in between.
quote:
And one cannot simply brand all gypsies as gypsies, even for such noble purposes as defending them against racism and persecution.
Like i'm speaking from the point of view of someone who spent 2 days in a big argument on cultural appropriation with 3 Romani friends against people who refused to let go of this usage of Gypsy. I'm not Romani(though being an actual Irish person living in Ireland, people often incorrectly romanticise our culture too) but I probably know more about the subject than most here. If you're *really* doubting what I'm saying on this I could probably arrange for one of them to sign up and comment.
It's irrelevant whether or not the Gurs are directly descended from Romani in our world, they are still clearly based on them, in much the way more blatant areas like Kara-Tur are asian.
If we're honest there's a lot of racism to unpack in fantasy settings in general, but this is just the more blatant stuff. I don't think the Gurs as-is are a racist depiction of the Romani people, though they do potentially feed on some incorrect stereotypes. However, the appropriation the OP describes as well as your own post are racist. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 14 Sep 2014 22:47:00 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 22:48:35
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quote:
They certainly didnt rigidly adhere to their original Slavonic religions, why think it impossible for particular gypsy caravans to worship Norse or Celtic or Indian godheads? Why think it impossible for Realms Gypsies to worship Mystra, Lathander, Silvanus, Mykrul, Talos, or Tyr?
a lot of romani culture comes from the hindu caste system. they are originally indian, not slavic. thus why they look like indians with some slavic features. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 14 Sep 2014 22:49:10 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 22:57:07
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D&D and the Realms are a pastiche of (our) social stereocasting. There are generic Arab and Indian cultures, generic Central/South American cultures, generic Iberian and Turkish and Roman and British and Germanic and Viking and Scandinavian/Viking cultures, and many more. Theres even generic Robin Hood and Merlin figures, of sorts.
The basis of each of these captures some of the (to us) exotic flavour behind the originals. Even if they are unwholesome, unflattering, woefully inaccurate depictions of real-world populations.
Thats just part of what fantasy is all about, combining idealized forms of what we know with imagination and magic. The trope is not specific to D&D but derives from our own nationalistic indoctrinations.
I am a member of an often misunderstood and historically persecuted group, as well, one which happens to also be portrayed in a superficial and sometimes insulting fashion within Realmslore. But campaigning against the symptoms accomplishes nothing productive, I can enjoy the Realms for what they are without taking things personally or feeling compelled to champion mighty causes which change fundamental social outlooks.
If the common D&D adaptation of gypsies is too offensive for your tastes then simply change them. Or exclude them. Or play a different game. But attempting to change everybody else (and their gaming preferences) will involve a lot more angry wind than Candlekeeps Moderators will choose to tolerate. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 23:16:32
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The general sensitivity of mankind to virtually anything is a huge pet peeve of mine but it advances the point of this thread not one bit. This is my last post in regard to the topic with apologies to The Arcanamach. Ill comment on the topic no further, because frankly, politics stink.
My vote goes for using a plethora of gods, all invoked for different reasons, including Milil, Llira and yes, even Asmodeus. |
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Edited by - Seethyr on 14 Sep 2014 23:18:01 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 00:44:24
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By all the unholy hells! Seriously...must we bring real world into the Forgotten Realms so completely that people have their feelings hurt.
Gypsies are fun...they are awesome. Greyhawk had barge going gypsy folk...my own World of Ark has gypsy type folk.
The INTENT of the use of a word is the insult...not the damnable word itself. My family came to the U.S. as indentured Irish servants...otherwise known as debt-slaves. Would I be offended and get all butt-hurt if someone was talking about indentured slaves in the Forgotten Realms? NO.
Just chill. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 01:26:50
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Eldath.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 03:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eldath.
-- George Krashos
That would be my thinking as well.
I'm also partial to the idea of Selune being a deity who counts gypsies among her faithful... if only because she has the tendency to embrace wanderers and roamers. |
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Alenis
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 08:20:29
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| Eldath if they're generally pacifistic(they don't necessarily have to be). I also think an interesting view would be for Shaundakul; he used to be a fairly potent deity during the time of Myth Drannor. Perhaps this would be a resurgence of his worship. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 15:27:24
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quote:
Thats just part of what fantasy is all about,
No it isn't. you can still take influence from other cultures without being racist.
Again, as is, the gurs aren't overly problematic, it's the ideas and comments in this thread.
quote:
If the common D&D adaptation of gypsies is too offensive for your tastes then simply change them.
Again - my problem is with the attitude of people in this thread. Which are racist. The line of discussion in this thread is racist.
quote:
By all the unholy hells! Seriously...must we bring real world into the Forgotten Realms so completely that people have their feelings hurt.
Gypsies are fun...they are awesome. Greyhawk had barge going gypsy folk...my own World of Ark has gypsy type folk.
Gypsy is a real world term with real world connotations. It's also, generally, an ethnic slur. If you don't want to bring the real world into it, don't use it. The fact is that many of our fantasy ideas are founded in real world ones.
quote:
The INTENT of the use of a word is the insult...not the damnable word itself. My family came to the U.S. as indentured Irish servants...otherwise known as debt-slaves. Would I be offended and get all butt-hurt if someone was talking about indentured slaves in the Forgotten Realms? NO.
Just chill.
No. Racism is racism. Just because some issue doesn't bother you doesn't mean others shouldn't be bothered too. What happened to your family is in the past. Whereas Romani people are not a historical people - they have to live in a world that projects a false image of them.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 15:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alenis
Eldath if they're generally pacifistic(they don't necessarily have to be). I also think an interesting view would be for Shaundakul; he used to be a fairly potent deity during the time of Myth Drannor. Perhaps this would be a resurgence of his worship.
Why not have a hodgepodge of a pantheon? I think that's been suggested. If these people travel the world, they probably have a mix of gods that fit their culture. Maybe they picked up Selune from one place, Eldath from another. It could even have been so long ago there could be a story behind it. For instance, Eldath got added after a time of persecution when a Ghandi-type hero rose up and led them to a new place and they were given shelter by some Eldath-worshipping Druids. It might be a story only the oldest and wisest know, but it could make for an interesting possibility. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 17:27:41
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Folks... figured I'd throw my two coppers here (hopefully in the interests of civility). I'm about as much or more afraid (yes, that's the word) of political correctness as most people. Political correctness is, strictly speaking, language used as a means of controlling ideas, which is very harmful to freedom.
But there's a difference between being silenced or called to court for a supposed ethnic slur (or even a well-recognised offensive one) and simply being asked to refrain from using such as much as possible. I'm very much not informed about the situation of Romani people, but I understand they are quite wary of stereotypes made about them and have some very sensible reasons to be.
Whatever you do mean when using "gypsy-like" or any such word in a public medium, you just have to understand lots of people might be taking that meaning very differently, regardless of what you actually mean. I don't think you're evil or even technically wrong to use the words, but it's a matter of civility and good-neighbour thinking to stop using them when people feel offended.
I really wish we could use words without evoking such powerful sentiments from people. I mean, if I say I have liberal political/economic leanings in Brazil, lots of people will think I'm fascist. Whereas in the US lots of them would probably think I'm a nanny-state social-democrat. It makes me uncomfortable, but I can't go around and tell people what they ought to understand by what I say, it's up to me to explain myself more clearly.
Compounded to this problem, we're on a privately owned site where the owners discourage discussions regarding specific real-world issues, so that's another reason to be extra careful when using such words. Again, it's not that I think it's in principle morally wrong, but it's just the way it is. |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 15 Sep 2014 17:45:59 |
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God of Gypsies?
