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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 23:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello, all.
simontrinity, Ed tells me he’s just sent what he called “a rambling screed” on Cormyr off to the Realms-List (or rather, to Jeff Thetford, to post there) that will answer your question. So after it appears there, I’ll repost it here (if that’s okay with you, Alaundo; it’s okay with Ed).
Good Gods! That was an essay about Cormyr!
Excellent. I look forward to reading it here.
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2004 : 00:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by simontrinity
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello, all.
simontrinity, Ed tells me he’s just sent what he called “a rambling screed” on Cormyr off to the Realms-List (or rather, to Jeff Thetford, to post there) that will answer your question. So after it appears there, I’ll repost it here (if that’s okay with you, Alaundo; it’s okay with Ed).
Good Gods! That was an essay about Cormyr!
Excellent. I look forward to reading it here.
As do I.  |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2004 : 15:05:54
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Well met, fellow scribes. Here follows what Ed called his ‘rambling screed’ on Cormyr, with a few VERY minor amendments he’s made since for clarity. I’ve not quoted the posts on the Realms-list that monitor Jeff Thetford asked him to respond to, because Ed’s comments suggest very well what they were. (One poster, Jimbo Bean, has since made a brief comment there about Ed’s misunderstanding of demihumans that puzzles me, but as yet neither Ed nor any other Realms-list member has responded to it. If it develops into something interesting, Realmslore-wise, I’m sure Ed will be asked for a response that may well find its way here.) Anyhoo, here are the words of Ed:
Before I weigh into this very interesting converse on Cormyr, let me say how delighted I still get, after all these years, when folks discuss my creation so passionately. It's an honour to listen in.
So please don't think I'm angry when someone posts something I disagree with, or slams this or that detail or concept of the Realms. I'm pleased that you all care enough about the Realms to form and argue opinions.
Some sort of updated coverage of Cormyr is needed, but when such a thing ultimately appears, its contents may well not match what I say hereafter. However, until then, my blatherings are, by the Realms agreement, canon by definition (I'm aware that some folks disagree with this, but, well, too bad: just as Tolkien was THE expert on Middle Earth and McCaffrey is the source for Pern, I'm the guy for the Realms, something that would be accepted without question if there were no Realms publications except my fiction writings and the Realms wasn't a shared world - - and something that's enshrined as part of the shared world agreement that brought you the published Realms, so like it or not, we're all stuck with it).
It may seem ridiculous to speak of what's "correct" and "not correct" about an imaginary land painted in colourfully imaginary details, but I'm going to try to do so. In fact, I'd better, because the sequence and scope of published Realms products thus far have, somehow, made it irritatingly difficult to convey the full 'feel' of Cormyr.
It may surprise some who read this to learn that I think the Charles Phipps interpretation of the Azuth/Elminster conversation at the beginning of Temptation is pretty close to accurate (with two important exceptions). The problem is the next step. Too many folks on this list aren't "thinking Realms" (considering how creatures of and in the Realms would think) when they view Realms events and situations. In this case: faith. The whole point of BELIEVING in gods (in Realms terms, passionately worshipping deities one knows to be real because they 'walk among us') is that both Azuth and Elminster would come to know this about Mystra and love and serve her ANYWAY.
This is where Charles gets it wrong (one of the exceptions I noted earlier, the other being the idea that Mystra doesn't love El): the notion that somehow Azuth and El both lack the 'dignity' to leave Mystra. Their faith IS their dignity. A modern real-world Western and essentially secular individual might have a hard time accepting this, but someone of Faerun wouldn't. This 'unable to see the Realms except through modern eyes' viewpoint governs or influences many of the posted comments on Cormyr, too. Before I wade into those, let me just briefly deal with the folly of equating 'Mystra as manipulator' with 'Mystra doesn't love her tools.' Of COURSE she does. Not only are they her champions, but in the case of Elminster, he's the link she desperately needs, and clings to, to retain some memory of her onetime mortality: her sense of self. To lose him is to lose her most important anchor (something even her successor realized - - hence the later Mystra's behaviour in ELMINSTER IN HELL). Azuth was her former mortal anchor, and his achievement of divinity changed him enough that she could no longer use him for that - - and discovered just how desperately she missed it.
Right, on to Cormyr (as I continue to ramble). And as usual, the chief focus of disputes are Azoun, Alusair, and the nobles. I hope to soon show you a little more of Alusair's character (including, yes, her sexual character) in a future Realms publication, and more of all of these matters in the Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy.
Charles is right again when he says that Azoun and Alusair are/were great rulers and "stomped on the nobility." However, I disagree with his use of "but" in front of "stomped," and his generalized use of "the nobility." As Jerry Davis correctly pointed out, the nobles aren't monolithic: they hold all sorts of different degrees of loyalty and personal like and dislike of the ruler and various Obarskyrs (and for that matter, each other). Inevitably, Realms publications are concerned with adventure and therefore strife, and tend to focus on treason and 'bad' nobles and disputes: by and large, you don't get to see all that much in print of the (vast majority of) 'boring' loyal, law-abiding nobles. Both Azoun and Alusair stomped on PARTICULAR nobles, usually for blatant treason or for defying the Crown in times when the realm was in crisis. If one looks back at the history of Cormyr, one can easily make the case for Azoun and his younger daughter being far more patient and gentle with ah, 'overly independent' nobles than many previous monarchs.
The nobles can't force any sort of Magna Carta for two reasons: they aren't a monolithic group (their own feuds and rivalries, between this noble house and that, are far stronger than their disagreements with the Crown), and the Court (the centralized bureaucracy, supported by the War Wizards) are running affairs in Cormyr in such a way that the nobles have no real beefs except what their personal greed and grudges engender: in other words, they don't have enough common, strong discontent to ever rise up and conspire all together. One poster views Cormyr's nobles as being on the verge of overthrowing the Obarskyrs because the "downsizing" of two noble families has brought home to them that their hereditary rights are threatened. A Sembian might well see things this way, and so think every second noble patriarch of Cormyr can be sweet-whispered into open rebellion, but that Sembian would be wrong.
All of the Mages Royal (Vangerdahast and his predecessors) have taken great pains to structure the laws of Cormyr, with full support from the heralds, to make it bluntly, explicitly clear that all nobles hold their lands and titles "at the favour of" the Crown. They have personal rights of treatment (the reason why Azoun exiled the noble relatives of actual traitors, instead of beheading them all - - which would have been wiser, for personal security reasons, and also the reason why he turned a blind eye to their hastily packing up and departing with almost all of their wealth and mobile goods, instead of sending Purple Dragons to seize it all at swordpoint), yes, but any monarch of Cormyr can disinherit them on a whim. (Kings of Cormyr have done it before Azoun; he wasn’t breaking any new ground, or law for that matter, when he 'broke' the Bleths and the Cormaerils. There's also a tradition of some disinherited noble individuals winning back their personal standing by their demonstrated loyalty to the realm or the Crown.)
Of course, that's how the War Wizards gain the support of the nobles who'd otherwise hate and fear them enough to slay them at every covert chance they got: we, the War Wizards, are YOUR defense against an angry king, or a bad king, or just an Obarskyr who happens to hate your tripes.
"I like to give credit though and view if nothing else, Faerun is actually DIFFERENT in morality and not existing in a modern times world morality like so many other fantasy worlds." Now THIS poster has hit the nail on the proverbial head. Exactly. Judge the Realms by its own codes, not by our own modern real-world ones (precisely because so many folks here and elsewhere hold a wide variety of different views, and end up arguing over the Realms in part because they use words to mean different things, and start speaking from their own differing world-views). I fully admit that sometimes it's hard to glean from published Realmslore precisely what those morals are, in a particular place in the Realms, and OF COURSE every DM can cast aside such things to run their own campaign version of Waterdeep or the Dales or Cormyr differently, but the published "shared" version does express, in however confused and fragmented a manner, belief and ethics systems different than our own. (Trust me: I put most of them there.) It's a subtle layer that can readily be ignored by those who want their Realms more clear-cut and simple for their home games - - but should never be ignored by sages of Realmslore (including Realms authors and game designers).
The posted comment about Alusair having more "kingly" qualities than her father is an example of this. 'Kingly' by whose standards? Father and daughter were quite alike when young, aside from obvious differences in gender and temper (Azoun has more charm and can keep his cool a trifle longer, and Alusair is more short-tempered and impatient with honeyed words), but Azoun was tempered by Filfaeril's diplomacy and Vangerdahast's dealings, whereas Alusair (as many a child does) rebelled against them.
Azoun learned to win more battles with honey than with vinegar, whereas Alusair rejected all the petty, empty words of Court and noble etiquette (of the elder nobles of her father's generation) in favour of riding to hunt and fight and make love and rough-house with the young nobles of her age. She reveled in the opportunity to brawl in actual fistfights with her 'Blades,' and they reveled in their opportunities to not only bed the woman they came to regard as a friend and their rightful social and battlefield leader, but to shape her character - - and so shape the future of the realm to be 'better' than the velvet-tongued intrigues of their own parents (whom THEY were rebelling against).
For his part, Vangey approved, as did the senior War Wizards. Oh, Alusair and her Blades had to be watched carefully and constantly to make sure they didn't fall under the influences of the wrong people, but with that precaution met, they were a breath of fresh air thrusting the nobility of the realm (over the years to come) away from decadence and increasing 'unfitness' to more intelligently and energetically support order, prosperity, and good governance throughout the realm.
In short, the Blades represented a near-future nobility who (unlike their parents) wouldn't almost all be deterimental-to-commoners drones or veiled traitors (some of whom pursued intrigues as personal entertainment, caring nothing for the good of the realm but not caring much about the harm they might do to it, either). They'd be men who'd roughed it in the wilderlands, been wounded and rescued by their fellows, done messy and demeaning work with their hands and backs - - and so could 'walk the walk' rather than just talking about it. Interestingly (given the converse about Alusair possibly being barren), in my original Realmslore (never touched by TSR because of the Code of Conduct, of course), Vangey told Alusair just that when she started to 'run wild with the boys,' precisely because he didn't want any awkwardness among her partners over such thoughts as: "gee, I might get her pregnant and then the King will literally slay me, only SLOWLY" or "heh-heh: if I get her with child AND get her to love me, I'm damn near 'next king of Cormyr,' aren't I?" to arise. She could sweep such problems away at any time by admitting that she couldn't have children. (Vangey was, of course, applying magical contraception to Alusair from a very young age, without her knowing it. Later, she accepted it willingly - - but may well chafe from time to time over its necessity). Alusair does take commoners as lovers (she's no snob who only likes dashing young nobles), and prefers physically strong men, but Vangey and the other War Wizards (such as Laspeera) have been subtly steering her into building and maintaining her fellowship of Blades over the years. Not eschewing dalliances with commoners, but letting her see, sometimes through planted dream-visions, how important and glorious it could be to forge a fellowship with nobles with whom she could defend the realm in years to come.
The other half of the 'kingly' comment puzzles me. Azoun seems "like a Viking ruling over Agincourt"? Now, I PRESUME this doesn't mean a 'Northman raider conquering a bloody battlefield where French knights have fallen riding vainly into the volleys of arrows sent by English yeomen archers,' and that the poster really meant to say something like 'a brawling barbarian lording it over sophisticated, cultured nobles.'
If that's the case, I must take great issue with it. The poster seems to be rooting a perception of Azoun (as some sort of barbarian) in a modern-world moral judgement about Azoun's habit of bedding good-looking females who came within reach. Now, Azoun's appetites may have been legendary, but his BEHAVIOUR was nothing unusual for the nobles of Cormyr, many of whom, male and female, also behave like this. It's not to everyone's taste, and there are dignified and 'proper' ways of romancing and ways of flirtation and seduction that are seen as less than tasteful, but among the nobles, who have access to very reliable herbal contraception (and magical contraception, too, via the War Wizards), 'swinging' is not only tolerated but expected. What nobles have to guard against is unintended, unwanted offspring who will have a claim on the family titles and lands (i.e. children born out of wedlock as a result of dalliances with individuals from other noble families).
The royals are an exception: EVERY noble family wants more ties with the ruling Obarskyrs, because such exalt their position in the pecking order and their influence at Court. Moreover, except for those he'd made personal enemies of, Azoun IV was VERY popular among both commoners and nobles. He was a handsome, charismatic man, dashing at feasts and on the battlefield alike. He was seen as fair and just, and most importantly as understanding and CARING about every one of his subjects, high and low. He had the knack of getting gruff old men, scared young lads, and worn-ragged housewives alike to sit down and spill their innermost opinions and feelings to, without fearing royal rage or reprisals. He often helped the humble, and always dealt with the common folk fairly. Quite simply, the realm loved him.
Nobles older than Azoun IV sniffed and grumbled about him in the usual 'look down our noses at everything' manner, of course, and certain nobles - - those he'd exiled and dispossessed, in particular - - hated or disliked him. However, throughout his reign, Azoun had a handy focus for popular dislike: Vangerdahast.
The Royal Magician was the man most folk hated and feared, if they felt ill will towards the Crown at all. Azoun was very likable, so it was easy for folk to blame unpopular things he said and did on the influence (perhaps even mind-governing spells!) of Vangerdahast.
So it was almost a matter of pride among female nobles AND their male relations to have a touch or four of "Azoun's favour" among the family babies. Those who didn't want such things, and who had any inkling of the ahem, bestowal of his seed, could call on the contraceptive means available to all nobles (the same means Filfaeril, Tanalasta, Alusair, and Azoun himself could all call upon, given proper prior opportunities). Hence the lack of any "scare" about Azoun (or Alusair, if one suspected her claims to be 'barren' to be so much diplomatic piffle) bedding one's own favoured noble son or daughter.
The posted assumption about Chauntea's blessing making Tanalasta very likely to conceive at her first bedding by Rowen (low Cormyrean slang for this is 'ploughing' and nobles call it 'riding,' by the way, for fairly obvious reasons) is correct.
Though some 'oldblood' nobles may choose to sniff at the Obarskyrs as behaving like uncultured barbarians (which usually means a particular Obarskyr has made a decree or treaty, or consorted with someone, that the looking-down-their-own-nose noble disagrees with), no Cormyrean alive today (with the possible exception of some long-lived elves who keep low public profiles) truly believes the Obarskyrs are barbarians. Rather, the Obarskyrs ARE the Realm, its founders and its central bloodline. So Azoun IV (who gave his life fighting for all Cormyr, as the War Wizards - - a VERY effective bunch of propagandists, when it suits them -- were very careful to make clear to the entire kingdom, complete with hastily-composed ballads) is an admired hero, more like a revered rock star than any sort of 'barbarian.'
Note that I'm NOT saying he was perfect: Ben is quite right to remind us of that and of the legitimate grievances any 'good' character can end up having against a ruler; I'm speaking now of the public perception of Azoun IV.
In short, Azoun was very much NOT hated by every noble. Quite the reverse, in fact: he was gallant to the ladies, a good drinking buddy to some of the guys, a sympathetic ear to everyone, an admired war leader, and quietly loaned a lot of the "crusty old brigade" nobles funds or quietly forgave their debts in return for "the noble service" they'd rendered the realm. He was NOT an unsubtle bear of a man, nor stupid. He was very shrewd, though yes, I believe Alusair is a trifle smarter than her father was. Filfaeril is the smartest of them all, by a long rod.
Which brings us to the "oh my gosh, look at all of randy Azoun's bastards - - Cormyr totters on the brink of civil war!" discussion. Ascending the throne of Cormyr always involves support from the War Wizards and significant nobles if there is no clear legitimate Obarskyr heir.
The moment there is an Obarskyr heir on the scene (assuming that person is seen as healthy enough in mind and body to function as a monarch), everyone, from guilds to Purple Dragons to dungsweepers, will agree that the Obarskyr heir is "the only true King" (or Queen). They might not agree with much enthusiasm, but the alternative is far worse. Remember: no shrewd noble can contemplate a rebellion or civil war as something they'll likely win or even survive. Not with the War Wizards as an integral part of the realm, and Purple Dragons around who have personal loyalty to Alusair and to the memory of Azoun IV. And the nobles are 'on top' in the status quo: any attack on the status quo threatens them more than anyone else.
Rather than shattering your own beloved homeland in a bloody war, it's much more desirable to befriend and aid the Steel Regent, earn her respect and approval, and be as close as possible to Azoun V as he grows up, so as to win HIS respect and friendship. And everyone can see that Alusair's TRYING to become more diplomatic, and to do what's best for the realm. For one thing, she visits scores of places and directly asks the advice of everyone, nobles and commoners alike, wanting to know what angers them WITHOUT filtering everything through 'local lords' and courtiers. She makes promises and keeps them. It's taking a long time for some folks to accept the 'new Alusair,' but most of them see her as "the best thing the gods sent us, if they had to take her father away from us."
So having scores of Azoun IV's bastards running around is seen (by Vangey and others) as "strengthening the bloodlines of the Realm," not "thrusting the realm straight into civil war." If there were only one or two bastards, perhaps they'd represent a threat to the current holder of the throne (if backed by the right private armies and handlers, possibly traitor-nobles or ambitious Sembians). However, there are more than a hundred bastard sons and daughters of Azoun IV, and most noble families have at least one - - so they all offset each other by their very wealth of numbers. And yes, Vangey and all of the senior War Wizards (not just Laspeera and Caladnei) know very well who and where ALL of Azoun's bastards are. Not to mention those of Bhereu, Thomdor, Rhigaerd II, and so on and so forth. :}
What has weakened Cormyr so much in these last few years is the war against the Devil Dragon (and the ghazneths and goblins). So many able-bodied fighting men and women lost their lives that the realm lies vulnerable to poor harvests and starvation (not enough folk left to tend and harvest enough fields), to Zhent and outlaw raiders out of the Stonelands (particularly once Shade appeared and such lurkers stopped thinking of the Stonelands as their pivate, cozy little impenetrable stronghold), and from various Sembian-sponsored attempts to grab land and set up (through bribery) puppet rulers, Court officials, and nobles. Add to this the ambitions of nobles (and exiled former nobles, operating primarily out of Westgate) seeking to gain power or take control of the infant Azoun V and thereby rule of the kingdom, and you have the present tense situation. (My REALMS OF SHADOW short story should serve to illustrate potential threats, and ELMINSTER'S DAUGHTER show something of the 'business as usual, conspiracies as usual' tenor of life in Cormyr.)
The retirement of Vangerdahast has left Alusair seemingly alone to guide Cormyr (I say "seemingly" because to think thus is to seriously underestimate Laspeera, Caladnei, Filfaeril, Alaphondar, and the Highknights such as Rhauligan), and so everyone with an interest in a weakened Cormyr, or in controlling its ruler, is taking a keen look at the Forest Kingdom. Such gazers would of course include various Red Wizard and Zhent factions, trading costers, and Sembian nobles. (It's also fair to say that Caladnei is very much "learning on the job" and a much weaker Royal Magician than Vangey was, that Alaphondar the Sage is about as far as one can get from a strong man of action, and that there are frighteningly few veteran Highknights still alive after the Dragon War. A competent War Wizard gone rogue would be a REAL problem for Cormyr, just now.)
Alusair’s 'wanton' behaviour has earned her the disapproval of the older, more conservative nobles (NOT her Blades or the female nobles of the same age, most of whom were very glad to have Alusair take the 'randy pranksome pesterers with wandering hands' out of their bodices and from under their skirts at every revel or 'private' moment), of the city gossips who delight in disapproving of darn near EVERYTHING, and of the more conservative commoners (who DO have to worry about unwanted offspring, or may follow faiths that don't smile upon frequent and casual lovemaking), but that doesn't make her "unpopular." It's more that her abrasiveness has made her a lot of enemies, and her ways have made most people wary of her. That's a long way from all Cormyr wanting her gone and overthrown as Regent. Now, if she were to publicly butcher Azoun V and announce she was now Queen forever, that would be VERY different.
Nor does the loss of Tilverton reflect badly on Alusair - - because many folk of Cormyr think of it as some foreign fort or other, occupied by the Purple Dragons "just to keep the Zhents off our backs," not as part of the realm. Unless you (as a citizen of Cormyr) travel to and from the northern Dales, Tilverton is just (to you) "that rough and ragged place in Tilver's Gap," that Azoun's troops occupied as a protectorate. In the wake of the war against the Devil Dragon, with the Purple Dragons a pale shadow of their former strength, it merely makes sense to pull back from such outposts to rebuild Arabel and "guard our cabbages right outside our own doors." (Jason quite properly reminded us of how recent its annexation was, and how folk in the heart of Cormyr would regard its loss.)
Arabel and Marsember have traditionally been centers of undercover dissent, but with some of the nobles who built such feelings into undercover 'secret societies' and the like gone, this has largely lapsed into the age-old rivalries between cities ("Ah, them as sleeps in Suzail think the sun rises and sets out o' their own backsides, an' never think we of Arabel might have two wits of our own, in all our city!"). The folk of Arabel love the staunchly loyal Myrmeen Lhal, and the fierce energy with which Dowager Queen Filfaeril oversaw the rebuilding of Arabel, "the gem of our realm," has touched and mollified Arabellans. The strong garrison has remained there, and for the time being, I'd scratch Arabel off any list of 'places that'll rebel the moment an Obarskyr back is turned.'
Marsember, now, is a different matter: exiled nobles are just across the water in Westgate, and all the old smuggling and slave-running concerns that want all authority gone or swept in confusion are still lurking. With Sembian investments in their pockets, yet.
One last thing for now: one poster makes the mistaken assumption that commoners aren't trained in the arts of war or familiar with weapons. Not only are knives, scythes, and the tools of hunting (slings, javelins, bows, and boar-spears) all weapons many farm-folk are very familiar with, Purple Dragons are encouraged to train their children (both genders) and mates in how to raise the alarum, how to defend their home, where locally to run and hide and gather, and the basics of armed fighting. That's different from allowing everyone to swagger around with weapons at their belts, yes, but the original 'unfamiliar with weapons' assumption is incorrect.
I'm sure these comments will stir up many a response. Have at ye, fellow fans of the Realms.:}
Ed
So saith Ed. I know he’ll be responding to Halaster questions and probably the Shadovar query soon, though he remains frantically busy writing short-order-needed fiction and game lore today and tomorrow. I’ll bring you what he writes, as soon as I get it.
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 07 Oct 2004 15:09:30 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2004 : 16:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Azoun learned to win more battles with honey than with vinegar, whereas Alusair rejected all the petty, empty words of Court and noble etiquette (of the elder nobles of her father's generation) in favour of riding to hunt and fight and make love and rough-house with the young nobles of her age. She reveled in the opportunity to brawl in actual fistfights with her 'Blades,' and they reveled in their opportunities to not only bed the woman they came to regard as a friend and their rightful social and battlefield leader, but to shape her character - - and so shape the future of the realm to be 'better' than the velvet-tongued intrigues of their own parents (whom THEY were rebelling against).
For some unknown reason this paragraph evoked a brief image of a biker chick and her all-male biker friends riding the 401 between Kingston and Montreal...  |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 13:58:28
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Melfius, I bring you the rather frisky (and incomplete; see hereafter) replies of Ed, as follows:
1. [NDA]
2. Yes, but they’ve not been remembered by, or are not known to, our Realms sources consulted thus far. Perhaps they’ll be revealed in the fullness of [NDA]
3. No. However, that doesn’t mean no offspring exist. In fact, [NDA]
4. Halaster thought he was establishing MageFairs on his own, but in fact more than one deity of magic was whispering subtle suggestions in more than one mortal ear to bring it about. Otherwise, given the paranoid nature of most mages, it’s likely the MageFairs would never have been more than Halaster waiting in some tranquil, remote locale for one or two mages to show up (and the Fairs would have ended the moment one arriving mage attacked, or was attacked by, another). As for who these deities and other mortals were, specifically, I’d have to [NDA]
5. [NDA]
6. A long time ago, specifically [NDA] in [NDA]
7. Like any long-lived mage, Halaster isn’t what most other mortals would call ‘normal,’ and never will be. However, Mystra did some major mental healing (that also involved binding Halaster more closely to her service), ‘offstage’ in the latter part of ELMINSTER IN HELL and thereafter. Halaster did NOT become a Chosen, but reached a ‘separate peace’ with her in return for serving her as an agent (in the events recounted in ELMINSTER IN HELL). He still has his ‘raving times,’ but they’re fewer, shorter, and less severe than before (i.e. he’s far more in touch with reality, and more cunning and less reckless whilst in the throes of them); most of the time he’s in complete control of himself - - and this is no longer governed by his location (in Undermountain or outside of it). That doesn’t mean he’s a ‘happy camper.’ For one thing, he’s both enraged and ashamed at how many years he’s wasted ‘drifting’ in sub-sanity, and is just climbing out of considering himself an utter failure and a rot-fungus on the face of Faerun and into deciding what he’ll devote the rest of his life to. Consider him a magical whirlwind that’s stopped spinning and is poised to decide what to do next. Tremble, Faerun, tremble.
8. Halaster HAD access to the Shadow Weave; much of his madness was due to Shar’s whisperings (attempts to mind-control him), which is specifically what he meant by her ‘touch.’ Shar’s influence gave him access to the Shadow Weave, but Halaster’s aged, busy, brilliantly-magic-creative mind couldn’t simultaneously handle mastery of both Weave and Shadow Weave, and so he was losing his sanity (and only thereby keeping Shar at bay: she couldn’t control a mind in such internal chaos). Mystra in effect thrust Shar out (in any contest of pure magic and of mortal mastery of magic, in which Mystra and Shar can exert equal forces against each other, Mystra will always win, because she IS magic, and has supremacy) of Halaster’s mind, banishing all traces of the Shadow Weave forever. What she left behind makes Halaster one of the few mortals whom Shar can never subvert, now. She can break his mind and his body, but not corrupt and come to control him. (In other words, he’s equal to a Chosen of Mystra in this regard. The Chosen who’ve failed Mystra in the past have lost their sanity and ‘fallen away from her love,’ and so become corruptible.)
9. Yes. :}
:}
:}
Oh, ALL right: I'll unleash THO to answer this when she can (I know she's very busy this weekend), and at that time return with some feeble attempts to answer your other three questions, too.
Ed
So saith the Master. Gawds, Halaster [shudder]! You WOULD have to make me relive those disasters, wouldn't you?
THO |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 14:40:57
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"7. Like any long-lived mage, Halaster isn’t what most other mortals would call ‘normal,’ and never will be. However, Mystra did some major mental healing (that also involved binding Halaster more closely to her service), ‘offstage’ in the latter part of ELMINSTER IN HELL and thereafter. Halaster did NOT become a Chosen, but reached a ‘separate peace’ with her in return for serving her as an agent (in the events recounted in ELMINSTER IN HELL). He still has his ‘raving times,’ but they’re fewer, shorter, and less severe than before (i.e. he’s far more in touch with reality, and more cunning and less reckless whilst in the throes of them); most of the time he’s in complete control of himself - - and this is no longer governed by his location (in Undermountain or outside of it). That doesn’t mean he’s a ‘happy camper.’ For one thing, he’s both enraged and ashamed at how many years he’s wasted ‘drifting’ in sub-sanity, and is just climbing out of considering himself an utter failure and a rot-fungus on the face of Faerun and into deciding what he’ll devote the rest of his life to. Consider him a magical whirlwind that’s stopped spinning and is poised to decide what to do next. Tremble, Faerun, tremble."
Does that mean that Halaster has now gone back to being Lawful Evil? (In the module Stardock Halasters alignment temporily changes back to LE after the heros rescue him but once he returns to Undermountain Halaster becomes CE returning to the Mad Mage of Undermountain.
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 14:54:17
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To the Lady Hooded One,
Just a quick question... i was wondering what happened to the Realmslore requests that were caught up in a backlog when Ed was too busy to post. Will they eventually be answered by yourself or Ed?
I'm only asking because i asked a couple myself and i don't want to restate them and get on everyone's nerves if they will eventually be dealt with.
Many thanks, as always, for spending so much time on us (and that's to both of you). |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 15:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
8. Halaster HAD access to the Shadow Weave; much of his madness was due to Shar’s whisperings (attempts to mind-control him), which is specifically what he meant by her ‘touch.’ Shar’s influence gave him access to the Shadow Weave, but Halaster’s aged, busy, brilliantly-magic-creative mind couldn’t simultaneously handle mastery of both Weave and Shadow Weave, and so he was losing his sanity (and only thereby keeping Shar at bay: she couldn’t control a mind in such internal chaos). Mystra in effect thrust Shar out (in any contest of pure magic and of mortal mastery of magic, in which Mystra and Shar can exert equal forces against each other, Mystra will always win, because she IS magic, and has supremacy) of Halaster’s mind, banishing all traces of the Shadow Weave forever. What she left behind makes Halaster one of the few mortals whom Shar can never subvert, now. She can break his mind and his body, but not corrupt and come to control him.
Forgive me for dropping in again on this thread, Ed, but this got me to thinking. I've never been one overmuch interested in the gods, as I've been distracted by Khelben, Waterdeep, Tethyr, and other matters. Still, one of the things that stood out for me from your response was this: Perhaps this failure to subvert Halaster--a battle that seems to have lasted many a century--could have been why Shar destroyed Ibrandul. She has her lynchpin of interest in the great dungeon of the North through the ibrandlin and those worshipers, but perhaps the difficulties with Halaster were why she didn't just leave Ibrandul to be a patsy/servant god of hers.....
then again, I've not had a cup of coffee yet, so I might not have remembered things we've said in the past on this.
By the by, do all these changes mean that Halaster no longer titters and giggles like an excited school girl when he's actually surprised by a spell he's never seen? 
Steven
Who thinks people's brains would crash if they saw Halaster's spellbook, especially if they think the Simbul designs overpowerful spells..... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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zeathiel
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 19:00:08
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Question for Ed or THO,
Not sure if this has ever been addressed, but besides the Seven, Elminster, Khelben, Nouméa, and Alvaerele Tasundrym, are there any other Chosen of Mystra? If NDAs prevent specifics, is there at least confirmation that "others" exist to be named and detailed by the DM?
My thanks
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 19:24:09
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Hello again, all.
Gerath Hoan, I want to reassure you that Ed will in the fullness of time answer all the Realmslore queries put to him here that NDAs don’t absolutely forbid him to answer. Some of them may take a LONG time, for four reasons:
1. Ed has three novels to write or rewrite between now and December 15th.
2. Ed answers lore queries almost daily for Realms designers, authors, and sub-license folk (computer game folk, etc.), and answers questions here and on the Realms-list, and works on both WotC website columns and charity work, and on non-Realms fiction and game design projects, AND (oh, yes) has a ‘real job,’ working in a library, too.
3. Ed knows about a lot of Realms projects by other writers that involve topics, places, and characters he’s been asked about. To avoid restricting those creatives, he doesn’t want to answer any ‘infringing’ lore queries until he’s at least seen a draft of all such projects, so as not to introduce (more  ) contradictions into Realmslore.
4. In many cases of broad-focus questions, there are very good design reasons not to give a definitive answer, because it will restrict future Realms possibilities for no better reason than to satisfy one poster’s curiousity. Ed tries to limit this last reason to a specific, narrow interpretation, but a good example of what he doesn’t want to do is the recent request to list (and therefore identify) and locate all Elven High Mages, on Evermeet and off Evermeet.
However, what zeathiel just asked (Hey! ZEATHIEL PLEASE NOTICE THIS! Ahem.) is fine: yes, there ARE more Chosen (not many, and some of them are very old, well-hidden, and by human standards rather ‘inactive’), so a DM is free to add. Please bear in mind that Chosen aren’t “superheroes for Good,” but rather ‘encourage-widespread-use-of-magic’ agents of Mystra, who are sometimes given strange and seemingly boring tasks to do.
Right now, Ed’s stuck on a writeup of Lathtarl’s Lantern for Borch because the Paul Culotta adventure set therein published in DUNGEON happens to be one of the issues in Ed’s subscription that never arrived (and the current publishers of the mag have no back issues of such old vintage). However, consider me Ed’s Christmas Elf, who keeps a long and ever-lengthening list of “answers he’s gotta give,” and pesters him about them. Often.  Hope this helps soothe the gnawing pangs of impatience for all who’ve posted here.
Oh, yes, one sneak peak: Ed just finished writing a lot of lore about Sembian mercantile practices, but I can’t say when or where you’ll see it. It’s details I wish we Knights had known a lot earlier: it would have prevented a lot of blundering around on our parts when we had dealings with various “Rich Fat Merchants.”
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 08 Oct 2004 19:48:01 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 19:42:32
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Beowulf, Ed says there are a LOT of stunningly impressive (and sometimes beautiful; they’re not always the same thing) buildings in the Realms, some of them really being carved-out and sculpted mountain crags, but because of the wide divergence of races and faiths, no one has ever thought of assembling a “Seven Wonders” list or anything of the kind. Some posters have already mentioned buildings, and Ed will note a few in the future.
In the meantime, to answer your specific questions (paraphrasing Ed’s notes to me):
No, the roofs of Lathanderite temples are usually rose-red tile (covered by bird droppings), and the soaring inner ceilings are usually rose-red stucco or painted plaster (dark red around the lower edges, lightening to a glorious orange-rose at the uppermost domes), NOT depictions of anything.
Yes, temples of Sune often have beautiful life-sized and smaller statues and statuettes of beautiful women, usually at least partially unclad and usually depicted dancing, sometimes depicted with expressions of rapture, but otherwise expressions of eager happiness. Not always, and not always of Sune herself; often these are remembrances of faithful (now dead) priestesses of the goddess.
Cathedrals of Gond are seldom seen on the mainland, where shrines are the rule. These are typically dominated by extremely complicated, large ‘perpetual motion’-like machines, wherein small pushes by priests and by faithful worshippers are magnified by flywheels, gears, counterweights, and so on into impressive and long-lasting symphonies of movement that seldom do anything useful, but sometimes serve to drill things, grind things, and so on.
I hope this is of help.
Love to all,
THO
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 20:12:10
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Thanks for your reassurance, THO. And the insight into just how BUSY Ed happens to be was very eye-opening... i mean, i knew he was a busy author who also worked in a library and occaisionally dealt with questions from the likes of us, but i had no idea of the scope of work he must have to plough through each and every day! As we've often joked on these boards, he must never sleep!
I hope for his sake its a labour of love, and one that rewards him as greatly as his efforts have rewarded us over the years.
Much appreciated,
GH. |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 20:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by zeathiel
Question for Ed or THO,
Not sure if this has ever been addressed, but besides the Seven, Elminster, Khelben, Nouméa, and Alvaerele Tasundrym, are there any other Chosen of Mystra? If NDAs prevent specifics, is there at least confirmation that "others" exist to be named and detailed by the DM?
My thanks
Symrustar Auglamyr
The Srinshee
Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep
Sammaster (Past Chosen.) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 21:42:18
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I am forever indebted for the information imparted thus far! Thank you, Ed and the Hooded One! I eagerly await the rest of the responses! (Although I must admit it felt a bit like trying to read the Warren Commission's Report! I can just see Ed laughing evilly every time he typed an NDA!)
An additional question just came to mind, one that I think should not be 'sanitized for the NDAs protection':
What types of games (lanceboard, chess, checkers, Old Maid) would be counted among those Halaster would enjoy. This is based on my assumption that Halaster would be almost addicted to strategy games.
Once again, I eagerly await your responses! |
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TheHermit
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 01:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
One poster, Jimbo Bean, has since made a brief comment there about Ed’s misunderstanding of demihumans that puzzles me, but as yet neither Ed nor any other Realms-list member has responded to it.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who read that and went "Wuh?" |
- "Glitz & Klax's Potions & Elixirs"/"The Sandmen", Inside Ravens Bluff, The Living City; 1990; TSR, Inc.
- "The Far Guardians' Traveler's Mission", Port of Ravens Bluff; 1991, TSR, Inc.
- "Signs Painted", Polyhedron #70; April, 1992; TSR, Inc.
- Communications Director, Coliseum of Comics, Orlando, FL - http://coliseumofcomics.com/ |
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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 08:57:56
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by zeathiel
Not sure if this has ever been addressed, but besides the Seven, Elminster, Khelben, Nouméa, and Alvaerele Tasundrym, are there any other Chosen of Mystra? If NDAs prevent specifics, is there at least confirmation that "others" exist to be named and detailed by the DM?
Symrustar Auglamyr
The Srinshee
Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep
Sammaster (Past Chosen.)
I would be interested in learning what Alvaerele Tasundrym (who I wasn't familiar with), and (who I forgot about!) Symrustar Auglamyr have been/are up to. :)
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 09:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
One poster, Jimbo Bean, has since made a brief comment there about Ed’s misunderstanding of demihumans that puzzles me, but as yet neither Ed nor any other Realms-list member has responded to it.
Ahhh, Jimbo's only the most recent of an illustrious line of REALMS-L curmudgeons. He'll fade into the ether as all the rest did - eventually.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 11:01:37
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ahhh, Jimbo's only the most recent of an illustrious line of REALMS-L curmudgeons. He'll fade into the ether as all the rest did - eventually.
-- George Krashos
I sure did... I faded so far in that ether that I couldn't even remember where to sign up for the Realms list if I'd be tempted to do it again (and in the process devote even less time on my job search, which would be extremely bad, taking into account the time I devote here...) |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 14:22:48
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Here's a quick question for everyone who's been monitoring this thread for some time...
I seem to remember in our discussions of Manshoon and his clones that it was said one of his clones was posing as an apprentice of the Simbul. Now, WHO said this and where does this reference come from? I've looked back through this thread and through Kuje's handy word document download and i'm sure Ed himself didn't say it. Is this clone the female (perhaps spell disguised) "Masked One" from UE? |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 14:56:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
Here's a quick question for everyone who's been monitoring this thread for some time...
I seem to remember in our discussions of Manshoon and his clones that it was said one of his clones was posing as an apprentice of the Simbul. Now, WHO said this and where does this reference come from? I've looked back through this thread and through Kuje's handy word document download and i'm sure Ed himself didn't say it. Is this clone the female (perhaps spell disguised) "Masked One" from UE?
Cloak & Dagger, which originally described the Manshoon Wars, said that nine of the Manshoon clones traded secret spells to gain sanctuary with various mages of power: Larloch the Lich-King, Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta, Vynmarius of Athkatla, Vizar Mohad el Fiasar of Manshaka, Tenaral of Amruthar, Vyrth of Darmshall, Halaster of Undermountain, Master of Mages Guldor Zauviir of Sshamath, and the Simbul. (page 15 of that tome)
With 3rd edition, Wizards dropped the ball, and decided that the Manshoon Wars were over and done with. Officially, the only Manshoons still around are Orbakh II in Westgate, the one in Undermountain, and the one with the Zhents. The fate of the others who had gained sanctuary is unrevealed.
Someone over on the WotC forums, in his own campaign, had the Manshoon with the Simbul enouncter a helm of opposite alignment, and a girdle of feminity, turning him into a good-aligned lady mage.
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 17:19:45
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Thanks Wooly, that must explain where i've seen it mentioned then.
Hmm, i do like the idea of a Manshoon clone being the Simbul's apprentice... it has the potential to mess with some PC's minds!
I do remember Ed promised us (a long time ago now) to make some suggestions of his own as to where the clones might have ended up, so THO, if he ever does have time i'd be fascinated to hear what his fiendish mind can dream up! And am i right in thinking he said that the "real" Manshoon is not the one with the Zhentarim, but still out there, quietly watching all of this happen?
Thanks again,
GH |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 17:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by simontrinity
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Symrustar Auglamyr
The Srinshee
Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep
Sammaster (Past Chosen.)
I would be interested in learning what Alvaerele Tasundrym (who I wasn't familiar with), and (who I forgot about!) Symrustar Auglamyr have been/are up to. :)
Alvaerele is the Silent Chosen, she's mentioned in Secrets of the Magisters, because, well, she was a Magister before being made a Chosen. She also keeps the geneology(sp?) of certain elven, human, and half-elven families and she knows where the Srinshee "sleeps."
Symrustar, well, we haven't heard much about her in 3e, nor in 2e that much. She was in Elminster in Myth Drannor, and also the Cormanthyr sourcebook. Her choker is detailed in the Player's Guide for 3.5. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Oct 2004 17:57:52 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 19:30:29
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Hello again, all.
Ed is overwhelmed with family at the moment (Canadian Thanksgiving), and with looking up lore and old publishing details for WotC, but will send me replies for you all as soon as he can. On the phone he said to say a fond hello to Steven Schend and invite him to drop in on this thread "any time, and often."
He also said, Gareth, that you remember correctly about the "real" Manshoon, and that "more will be revealed in the fullness of time."
Heh-heh.
Love to all,
THO |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 22:13:23
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Thanks my Lady, that particular speculation is of great interest to me and fits some of my own personal conclusions about Manshoon and his personality.
Not wanting to add to Ed's burgeoning list of Realmslore questions, but not really knowing who else to ask... Where abouts can i find out some detail about Tharsult? I only recently got hold of "City of Splendors" (an awesome piece of work, i have to say!) and it references this southern island nation as the destination of some Waterdhavian nobles in their winter months. I can't find any mention of it in my 2nd or 3rd Edition campaign settings and i'm not sure which regional product it would have appeared in to download one of those. Could you just point me in the right direction?
Many thanks once again,
GH |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 03:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Alvaerele is the Silent Chosen, she's mentioned in Secrets of the Magisters, because, well, she was a Magister before being made a Chosen. She also keeps the geneology(sp?) of certain elven, human, and half-elven families and she knows where the Srinshee "sleeps."
Symrustar, well, we haven't heard much about her in 3e, nor in 2e that much. She was in Elminster in Myth Drannor, and also the Cormanthyr sourcebook. Her choker is detailed in the Player's Guide for 3.5.
Thanks for the information. Do you know anything about the Eternal Srinnala?
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Edited by - RevJest on 10 Oct 2004 04:02:30 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 04:09:24
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Hello, all. I bring the words of Ed of the Greenwood, in reply to fourthmensch:
Hi! As you guessed, I wasn’t involved at all in the creation or development of the city of Shade and its inhabitants, nor the Shadow Weave itself. The latter came from an orphaned Birthright novel by Rich Baker, and the former were the ‘big Realms event’ for the novel line that provided the in-game coverage of the ‘bolting on’ of all of the Shadow-related material to the Realms. As you and many other Realms fans have noticed, there’s a degree of awkwardness in how the Realms and the Shadow-stuff go together.
My own personal ‘home’ Realms campaign exists primarily to entertain my long-time players. In that Realms, the original, the Time of Troubles hasn’t happened (because my players, who slid only uneasily from 1st Edition to 2nd, weren’t interested at all in what they read and saw of the Avatar trilogy or 3rd Edition, either - - and they vote on rules changes and what of the published Realms we adopt and use), and neither has Shade appeared or its inhabitants ‘returned.’
The published Realms, however, serves a wider audience, and (sometimes successfully, sometimes less so) various designers and fiction writers are always trying to describe dramatic events in the Realms and increase play possibilities for everyone: opportunities for gamers who like large-scale wars and for gamers who like subtle intrigues, gamers who like cool new villains and gamers interested in exploring new territory. Like it or dislike it, the Return of the Archwizards fiction and related game material aims at tossing some new toys onto the table.
As the father of the Realms, a part of my job is to constantly scramble all over the unfolding tapestry of the Realms, as dozens of designers and fiction writers busily work on creating their own little bits of that tapestry, and ‘tidy up.’ I tug the tapestry flat here, I weave some new little linking bits in over there, and I get out my flashlight and shine it on this hitherto neglected or unknown flap over HERE, to try to keep the whole thing alive and colourful and somehow hanging together. I’m not trying to pat myself on the head here or pose from praise like some bulging-thewed superhero: unsung Realms fans like Eric Boyd and George Krashos and Tom Costa and “Garen Thal” and Steven Schend and dozens of others do the very same thing, and so do all the other Realms designers and fiction writers besides myself, plus some very capable Realms managers at WotC.
However, in my chosen role of tapestry-unfurler, I consider it part of my stitching-together duty to allude to major nearby Realms events in my fiction, and that’s what Zlorn’s utterance is. I deliberately crafted my allusion so that a DM who doesn’t want to use Shade can, yes, “consider this to be simple hyberbole from an admittedly dubious source.”
The Lords of Darkness entry had the High Princes “divided on the question of whether to begin open hostilities or to subtly maneuver the kingdoms of the Heartlands towards destabilization” for the same reason: to leave it up to the DM. In other words, here are the toys if you want to play with them, but we’re NOT going to force you to use them.
What I’d do, personally, as a DM is to consider that the events of the Return of the Archwizards taught the High Princes that there are some VERY powerful players in the Faerun of ‘now’ (Larloch, the Chosen, Halruaa, and any number of ‘loose cannons’ like Halaster, the various Manshoons, the zulkirs of Thay, the sharn, and so on: they haven’t even really run up against the Malaugrym yet, or the elven power groups that Rich Baker is exploring in The Last Mythal trilogy) that it would only be prudent to learn more about before lashing out. Moreover, some of the High Princes are wise enough to know that when one is as powerful as they are, and reaches out to seize something desirable, it’s often all too easily to unintentionally destroy what one is trying to grasp.
Therefore, a majority of the High Princes want to learn a lot more about the Heartlands before initiating any open hostilities. Besides, they derive a lot of entertainment from deft infiltration and manipulation, and all of the processes of establishing spy and agent networks. This allows a DM to use Shadovar influence as much or as little as he or she wants, whereas going the other commits a DM to plunging much of Faerun into cataclysmic war.
So, a FEW of the Shadovar might be impatient to lash out and smite and conquer, and there might be instances of them sneaking out and doing so (therefore, to answer your question directly: yes, it’s possible they’re doing both), but the governing policy of Shade, for now, is to learn all about the current societies of of the Heartlands and lay the groundwork for subtly maneuvering the Heartland realms into chaos or Shadovar takeover (probably through puppet regimes rather than open conquest).
So in MY Realms, if Shade had appeared and things had progressed to ‘now,’ the Shadovar would be subverting creatures to be their agents (or installing beings loyal to them or even of their own lower ranks) within the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, the War Wizards of Cormyr, various Sembian merchant cabals and families, nobility in various lands and city-states, a dozen other power groups, and in ruling courts all over the Heartlands. Not that PCs would know this until they stumbled over something that left the awful truth in their laps, and Shadovar agents closing in on them eager to wipe them out before they could share this truth with anyone - - and no one else believing them.
Years of fun (you’ll just have to imagine my wolfish grin, here, okay?)
Ed
So saith the Master. Myself, I’d just like to thank fourthmensch (NOT!) for putting such ideas into Ed’s head. As if he doesn’t have enough punishment thought up for us already!
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 04:18:03
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Gerath Hoan,
All I can do is point you in the direction of the WotC website and counsel patience. Ed provided some details of Tharsult over a year ago, now, for posting thereon, but I seem to recall him mentioning Eric Boyd having some Realmslore need for same. If Eric the Much-Read reads this, perhaps he could provide us with more information.
Eric?
THO |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 04:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by simontrinity
Thanks for the information. Do you know anything about the Eternal Srinnala?
The Srinshee? She's in Elminster in Myth Drannor and she also makes an appearance in Elminster in Hell. The rest of her info is in Cormanthyr:Empire of the Elves and The Fall of Myth Drannor. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 10:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by simontrinity
Thanks for the information. Do you know anything about the Eternal Srinnala?
The Srinshee?
No, I know who the Srinshee is. Well, I know what most of us know about her anyway I imagine. I was referring to a secret (?) organization of elves that are somehow involved with her, and that existed before the fall of Myth Drannor.
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 11:38:34
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IMC, I'd use the Shadovar in the same way that Ed explained. We're talking about a people that has inhabited the Plane of Shadow here... not Warrior's Rest where everyone and everything is about sheer numbers and open war tactics.
I would be of the opinion that the Plane of Shadow has imparted a certain degree of desire for "stealth, intelligence and infiltration" rather than the open alliances we've seen so far in the novels (i.e. having the princes teleport to Cormyr and Waterdeep to sign treaties and bargain openly...) Although one could argue that this was precisely an initial exercise in intelligence (i.e. fake diplomacy just to learn about one's foe... prod until they show their own colors in frustration, etc.)
In any case, I would have sent more mundane agents at first, just to observe quietly for months, to breathe in the politics and current affairs... not this dramatic overture that screams "HEY YOU! WE'RE HERE NOW!! HELLO?!?"
Very "unshadowy" |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2004)
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