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Originally posted by Zandilar

How come every second strong woman has to be (it seems) paired up with a male of equal calibre? (Hmmm... I don't think that came out the right way... oh well) How is it that so many "young women" end up with "old fat hairy men"? I'm not making any accusations here, or pulling out any specific examples... But it would be nice if, for once, a female character I happened to like/enjoy wasn't paired off in such a way as to make me go "Oh WHAT?!" (I'm not saying you (or other writers) in the Realms shouldn't do it, I'm just trying to point out a pattern that I have noticed.)

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Originally posted by Winterfox

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Originally posted by Zandilar

How come every second strong woman has to be (it seems) paired up with a male of equal calibre? (Hmmm... I don't think that came out the right way... oh well) How is it that so many "young women" end up with "old fat hairy men"? I'm not making any accusations here, or pulling out any specific examples... But it would be nice if, for once, a female character I happened to like/enjoy wasn't paired off in such a way as to make me go "Oh WHAT?!" (I'm not saying you (or other writers) in the Realms shouldn't do it, I'm just trying to point out a pattern that I have noticed.)

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I've noticed that where Mirt is concerned, but although (obviously) I'm neither The Hooded One nor Ed Greenwood, I feel the need to point out a few instances in which this doesn't hold true. Shandril Shessair (although I'd dispute that she's a strong woman, but that's neither here nor there; she was a prominent enough protagonist) was married to Narm, and they seemed to be in the same age range. Laeral's paired off with Khelben, who's not fat (hee), and the age gap isn't too large (both are immortal, in any case). *coughs* Of course, I've only read three-four novels by EG, so what I've offered may be coming from a rather uneducated view.

And, incidentally, is this the same Zandilar on kotorfanfic.com? If yes, can I go "Wheee!" and tacklehug you?

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Since Ed is currently taking a little well-deserved and long delayed time off, I figured I'd chime in here on this one, if only because Khelben and Laeral have been on the brain of late....

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In terms of powerful women linked with spouses of equal calibre, well, the K&L relationship really alters depending on the audience and the situations. If you're just having a tankard in one of the tower's libraries with them, you'll find both wizards finishing each other's sentences in a teasing way and laughing far more than anyone would ever accuse of the Blackstaff. In quiet moments, Khelben might even admit that he considers his wife the stronger of the two (and who he relies on for support in all things), while she still feels much the opposite, given his role in saving her from the Crown of Horns that she could not defeat. In public, they play out their expected roles, Khelben keeping his dour and severe public persona locked in place, while Laeral simply reduces the amount of innuendoes and ribald jokes (at least within her husband's earshot).

All in all, it is truly a marriage of equals and soulmates, the two of them having had a tumultuous relationship that saw them realize their love for each other 500 years before they could ever get around to consummating it. Yeah, Moonlighting had nothing of the sexual tension these two had....

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As for why Ed keeps pairing up couples who complement each other on many levels, one has only to meet his Jenny to understand. They're a great couple and there's no doubt of the love and respect between them.

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For any other discussions on couples, I'll let Ed or THO have at it. For hints of other "nonstandard" oriented characters, I've dropped quite a few into the Realms but rarely highlighted their existence for one reason--What gets a person sexually excited is both something we should really underscore for characters in print, and also, we should be more interested in them as heroes or characters. Their heroism, not their sexuality, defines them; I'm not dismissing that it's an important facet, but it's never been one I've focused on, since I wrote all my FR stuff as a staffer and thus had rules to follow.

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Who might suggest people take closer looks at some of Steven's NPCs in the Watch and the Adventurers' Quarter in Waterdeep as well as a few NPC scattered in LOI & EoSS if you truly need more canonical homosexual characters

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Originally posted by Zandilar

Heya,

@Winterfox: Yes, 'tis me. :) Unfortunately I never got to finishing the story of Trin Kaar, that isn't to say I won't go back and do it say... two years down the track. Which looks like exactly what is happening with some NWN fan fiction I started writing in 2002. :)

Tacklehugs are always welcome.

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On Zelauma: I did read about her... I think from this thread even. (I've been up to my eyeballs reading this whole thread the last few days, it's interrupted my writing!) An example of what what I thought was "courtly love" - loving someone from afar with out any hope of it ever being requited.

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Originally posted by kuje31

Hi again Ed or THO,

This one is from Ksu_bond.

Are the weekdays in a tenday named like our weekdays, in that they are called monday, tuesday, etc? Or maybe the clergies and nations of FR have different names for the days of the tenday?

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Originally posted by Lord Rad
I'm pretty sure i've read somewhere that theyre called "firstday", "second day" etc. Our Mondays are taken from various aspects of our beliefs etc so aren't relevant in the Realms. If only I could recall where I read of the day names. GRR

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Zandilar, the quick answer to your initial question is that every time I try to write anything non-standard regarding gender and characters who are “strong”/dominant or “weak”/submissive [strong females paired or interacting with weaker males, for example, such as Shandril and Narm] my editors have fits (“Doesn’t fit our readership! Will hurt sales! Must fix at once!”). Such things “don’t fit” the genre expectations.

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In light of that prime philosophy and publishing need, it’s foolish to upset some Realms fans by stating matters too baldly and being too definite when we (various Realms designers and authors) can HINT to our collective hearts’ content -- and in doing so, leave DMs full leeway to run particular characters however best suits their principles and preferences.

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In fact, it’s ALWAYS better design work to hint (“Elminster says he’s heard of many orc sightings in and about the ruins”) rather than stating things too precisely (“There are six orcs and one hobgoblin in the ruins, and they’ll be found waiting for PCs in the following rooms . . .”). Hence the very existence of unreliable narrators such as Elminster, and storytelling colour (“fluff” to some) over rules stats in most Realms writings. The Realms is people (characters) and THEIR STORIES, not stats -- and not merely their bedchamber preferences, either.

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For example, I once had a fight with a DRAGON assistant editor over an article (which I refused to finish, under such conditions) wherein I wrote that many Arthurian tales describe Lancelot and Guinevere as “lovers,” and was told that I couldn’t use the word “lovers” or IN ANY WAY IMPLY extramarital sex (i.e. Arthur could be assumed to make love to his wife so long as I made no direct reference to it, but I couldn’t even hint that someone else could). Sheesh. I directed the editor to the standard roster of Greek and Roman myths, legends, and fables for hardcore sexual hijinks, but she dismissed my point as irrelevant.

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However, my great friend and Realms-champion Steven Schend has, as usual, already said it best in this thread: that we shouldn’t be defining characters by their sexual preferences. There’s far more to people than their jobs, or their hobbies, or how they like to dress, or how they engage in sexual behaviour.

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I’ve actually written many gay (and far more bi- ) males and females into the Realms that NO ONE recognizes as such, purely because they DON’T adopt modern real-world sterotypical styles (such as so-called “butch” behaviour or effeminate “limp-wristed and lisping”).

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In “my” Realms, there’s no general prejudice against love of same gender or love of both genders. There ARE individuals who hold such prejudices, and in general, members of nobility or royalty or any other group in which lineage and inheritance is important frown on deviance from whatever their locally accepted norm of pairing is, so that “the line can be maintained in a clear, can’t-be-challenged manner.”

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I’m not sure if you’ll see a clearly lesbian or gay male character in a novel soon, because the only way to give them that status “clearly” is to engage in protracted sex scenes, which are seldom okay with editors (a story would have to be constructed that would make such matters integral to the plotline and not “gratuitous,” and although I can and have written colourful porn, it’s not something WotC would welcome in the Realms line). Let’s just see how far I can go in the Knights novels, shall we? :}

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And yes, I regard your problem (“I personally would love to see characters in the Realms that I can personally relate to, and I keep coming up short.”) as something that Realms fiction as a whole should address, for as wide a variety of Realms readers as we can collectively manage. So in design or creative terms, there is or should be a “place at the table” for, say, openly lesbian characters.
Bear in mind, however, that many Realms fans delight in pouncing on me for being a dirty-minded “pervert” (most of them, of course, not even understanding the meaning of that word) for merely showing casual nudity, kissing, caresses, and even footrubs in my fiction . . . things many Canadians (and, from my conversations with them, more than a few Americans) who went to summer camp in their teens accepted as normal in such settings. (And being as the Realms is “my” setting, *I* get to define what is ‘normal’ in the Realms; that’s even in the original Realms agreement).

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So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?

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Remember the editorial fits I caused just mentioning brothelsXXXX ahem, “festhalls.” My view was that I was just reporting, a la National Geographic: ‘The native women have long, floppy . . .’ and the TSR editors disagreed violently. BTW, the very existence of all those brothels point to the number of men and women in the Realms who want casual sex, or who don’t get what they want at home, or who don’t want to wait until they get home. Sex IS alive and well in the Realms.

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So, yes, Alustriel does take pleasure in hosting orgies in which she physically enjoys both males and females, and lots of them enjoy each other, and lah dee dee dah dah. This does not make her a nymphomaniac, an empty-headed lust bunny, or deficient in any way. In fact, she’s achieved more through seduction and founding firm friendships and making others long for another chance to dive into the comfort of one of Alustriel’s large and well-filled baths than many rulers ever manage with dozens of treaties and scores of wars, skirmishes, and threats.
If you need validation, yes, Alustriel and Zelauma make love. Storm makes love with both guys and gals (the Harpers don’t regard her as a ‘den mother’ for nothing :} ). Think of her as the comforting arms they run to, for advice and soothing companionship and understanding. However, she does as much listening and dispensing warm soup as she does riding and being ridden.

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However, Zandilar, just between you and me (and of course everyone across the world with Net access who reads this :} ): I personally happen to be a guy who likes gals, but I’m quite comfortable kissing, hugging, and even caressing or comforting guys. Such activities don’t happen to turn me on sexually. I’m a “toucher,” and always have been: I hug and kiss a lot, perhaps more naturally than I shake hands (when greeting females formally, I was taught to kneel and kiss their hands). However, I know that such close contact gives a lot of people the creeps, and I have utterly no interest in upsetting people outside of a roleplaying session in which we’re both acting: if someone goes red or jerks away from me, oops: MY bad. That’s why I don’t want to write too forcefully about such things.

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But I hint like crazy. Steven not only expressed Khelben and Laeral’s relationship perfectly, he directed you to some of his character writeups for a look-see, and I’ll do the same: look back over my Realms writings (such as the NPC sections of the Volo’s Guides) and the hints are there. Bushels of them, in fact. :}

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<snip bit about neighbours>
That’s the same style and balance I’d like to strike in my Realms writings: casual acceptance of such matters for those interested in them, and a tacit agreement to overlook them for those who aren’t.

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With the ground prepared, so to speak, I can now tackle your query about strong female characters choosing older, fatter, hairier males. (And for readers waiting to denounce this as my personal sexual wish-fulfillment, I proffer three words: oh, grow up. I did, after all, establish these characters and relationships when I was a skinny, young, bespectacled nerd of a youngster who never thought he’d ever either get fat or grow a beard. Old, yes, I knew that would happen if I didn’t get myself killed. But I digress. :} )
My point in depicting several “gals like old fat hairy males” relationships was deliberately to point out that these particular females chose what they wanted, and it wasn’t “brainless handsome hunks” but rather men with wits and characters they could respect.

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For example, in the case of Mirt and Asper, I wanted to show a Realms instance of something that happened many times in real-world past history: a young ward growing up to genuinely love her much older guardian (yes, I’m well aware that there were even more real-world instances of guardians forcing themselves on their wards, or marrying them over their objections).

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I, too, don’t like gals to collapse into mush whenever Macho Hero Number 36 strides manfully onto the scene. However, I have written several scenes in which women who know quite well that their physical strength and personal social standing can’t win them a clear victory over Mister Macho, and who have enough personal self-confidence not to have to be seen to “win” every moment, do the collapse act to manipulate Macho into doing what they wanted, WITHOUT a large and damaging conflict. MY pet-hate, never-want-to-write characters are STUPID females (except as passing villains who get what they deserve).

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What sort of things would you like to know about Caladnei of Cormyr? I didn’t create her, but have used her in my Realms of Shadow story and in Elminster’s Daughter (the mind-meld sequences therein shared important highlights of her personal ‘back story’ with readers), and plan to reveal more of her in tales to come. To some extent, the Royal Magician of Cormyr must have some ‘air of mystery’ to be effective, and Caladnei is very much ‘learning on the job’ and growing and changing in doing so. (And if it’s hints of lesbianism you’re looking for, take a good look at Caladnei and Alusair in that Realms of Shadow story.)

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I’m not sure how soon Laeral of Loudwater will reappear in print. It depends on a lot of not-yet-settled projects, but is unlikely to be less than three years or so. You may in a year or so see a rather powerful story concerning Alusair and her sexuality. Or may not; again, we’ll have to see.

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Regarding slash: although I’m well aware that in this age of instant Net publishing examples of slash writing can be distressing to some authors, I personally have no trouble with it, so long as it’s always made clear it’s not the work of the original author. Satire defenses aside, I also fully understand when someone is upset by a depiction of his or her character and tries to vigorously defend the original by legally punishing the writer of the slash, or getting the slash removed from circulation, and so on.

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However, I regard all fannish writing as something humans DO. Have always done. In the same way that children play with dolls, readers play with characters they develop an affection (or love-hate) for. I have read some wonderfully affectionate fan writings about the Realms, and some vicious and hilarious slash about Realms characters. (The one in which Elminster was magically cursed to continuously grow breasts and vaginas that roamed around the surface of his body, whilst he exuded an aroma that made all humans and elves [especially drow, OF COURSE] around him mad with lust for him, had me rolling on the floor whooping with laughter. I just wish the writer had been competent enough to go on to tell a good story after the few vivid scenes of debauchery. But I digress again. :} )

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I hope I’ve answered your questions without overly offending anyone, Zandilar and other scribes. As you can probably tell, I’m not shy about discussing such topics, and I’m sure Alaundo and Tethtoril will step in if they think matters are getting (ahem) out of hand, so if you’ve follow-up questions, feel free. However, folks, please let’s NOT get into an endless round of “So is Manshoon gay? Is Fzoul? Okay, how about Larloch?”

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I would hope there are more things to talk about in the Realms than that.

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And in the interests of full disclosure: I’m happily heterosexual but have enjoyed several lesbian relationships of the “cozy longtime friends who enjoy occasional fun sex” variety. And I happily offer my shoulders, back, and feet to Ed to rub whenever he’s within reach, because he’s so good at it -- and DOESN’T expect it to lead to our leaping onto the gaming table together for wild sex in the next few minutes. (Though, if he ever offered . . .)

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Originally posted by The Hooded One

I hope I’ve answered your questions without overly offending anyone, Zandilar and other scribes. As you can probably tell, I’m not shy about discussing such topics, and I’m sure Alaundo and Tethtoril will step in if they think matters are getting (ahem) out of hand, so if you’ve follow-up questions, feel free. However, folks, please let’s NOT get into an endless round of “So is Manshoon gay? Is Fzoul? Okay, how about Larloch?”
I would hope there are more things to talk about in the Realms than that.

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So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?

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Originally posted by Bakra

What is my comfort zone?
Well I prefer the James T. Kirk method, we see the hero hook up and the next thing you know it is morning and he is putting his boots on. There is no way anyone can write anything that is better than my imganination. It is like watching a horror movie...well you get the idea...
I do draw the line at pedophilia and beastiality. Period. No room for arguements.

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Originally posted by Bruce Donohue
A question to THO and Ed...

In regards to Semmemon, what sigil does he have and what does it look like and would he have a signet ring and what would it look like and be made of?

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